Crossover help and general cfor Jbl d130 Meyer sound ms-1402 in 4560 cabinets

[Evang]

I stumbled on some really rough JBL 4560 cabinets and four early d130's, all different, one with the Ampex badge one Jim Lansing smooth back, all 8 ohm, reconed. Also got these Meyer 1402's, 16 ohm, haven't been able to find much about them. Early Altec looking blue bodies, maybe the same as th 1401? I would love to pair the woofers with some JBLs drivers, but I don't foresee being able to afford that anytime soon. Designing a crossover is WAY out of my depth math wise and as much as I know I should start by learning all the theory and math I need to, that's just not something I'm going to have the time for, as much as I'd love to. The little I do know I've taught myself, I can repair/build old amps following a schematic for the most part, use a meter, etc, just the basics, and fabricate anything I'd need. So I really just want to get these in use without too much hassle, maybe start with just a cap for the drivers, start listening and then dialing it in. Any suggestions? I've looked at the n2400, n2600, je labs simple crossover, adjusted for my drivers would one of those be a good design, I haven't found the schematic for either jbl crossover though. I know, I'm pretty clueless, still learning the basic principles of speaker and crossover design, I'm hoping to get all the help I can. Thank's for any help, I really appreciate it, but if anyones only advice is to get a book on electrical theory and start reading, maybe don't chime in, it's already noted.

As for the rest of it, I'd love any input as far as the cabinets. They are way to big for my space and in rough shape but could be made into some industrial looking beauties with a lil work. I've read that as bass horns they lack a lot of bass. Mine are the ones with a horn on top of the woofer. If I keep them I'll probably have to cut them down, remove the ports top and bottom and make them into a simple enclosure, just keeping the wave guides. I'm guessing this would mean even less bass, which is fine by me, I don't listen to much Skryllex. To my ear they sound beautiful, I've seen a lot of mixed opinions on their sound/value but the reproduction of acoustic instruments is the most lifelike I've heard. Do the old Altec 15'' drivers really sound that much better, more base? Maybe in the future I could use them as the basis of some Altec A7's if I ever have that kind of space. would it be sacrilege to start butchering them? Also in the event I am one day able to afford them, what Altec or James B. Lansing drivers and horns would be a good pairing for that smooth back d130?

Here's the only info I've found from Meyer paired with ms15 low frequency driver in 500a system;

highpass slope 12db per octave
lowpass slope 6db per octave
cutoff 1000hz
running a Dynaco st70
http://pdfstream.manualsonline.com/a/a7ca3576-4733-40a6-98c8-fc979b253f63.pdf

Thanks for any and all help, Evan!

[Evang]

Now that I've looked closer the Ampex is a 150-4 and sadly one of the 130's is a fender, what you don't know...

[Riley Casey]

The Meyer 1401s that I've seen are rebranded Yamaha drivers and AFAIK the diaphragms have long been unobtainium so I think I'd be a bit more tender with them than a first order high pass filter. Maybe these https://www.ebay.com/itm/304155561360 ? There is also a Meyer 1401M that looks like a rebranded Emilar so not Altec looking at all. Post some pics of what you've got.

Starting with a disparate collection of drivers like this really cries out for getting up to speed on using measurement software like REW or Open Sound Measurement to evaluate the drivers number one and then to sort out the best options for crossovers using a DSP crossover and bi-amping. Test and listen til you're satisfied with the results and then build a passive crossover to match those characteristics.

The only difference between the Fender frames and the stock JBL musical instrument D130 was the paint job at least when I was reconing they used the same kit. If you've got some earlier hi-fi d130 then yes even more variables. The biggest issue with the 130s will be what cones they have, in what condition and what level of charge the Alnico magnets still have. All three of these are hard to answer without measurements.

If you're really feeling lazy just buy some off the shelf 1200 hz passive crossovers on Parts X and give them a listen. Meyer used a lot of tricks in their mostly bi-amped speaker systems like sliding crossover frequencies and well calibrated limiters to keep the HF drivers alive so act accordingly in trying to get these working on the cheap.

Also do tone tone sweeps on the 4560s. Lose plys, braces ( there weren't enough braces to begin with on the factory boxes to begin with, after market baltic birch boxes were often better ) and glue joints are not uncommon on older boxes especially those used in portable service.


... So I really just want to get these in use without too much hassle, maybe start with just a cap for the drivers, start listening and then dialing it in....

Thanks for any and all help, Evan!

[RMC]

Evan,

I didn't find much Meyer MS 1402 info either.

RE "So I really just want to get these in use without too much hassle, maybe start with just a cap for the drivers, start listening and then dialing it in."

I can understand this. Meyer's 1khz cutoff is with a 12 db high-pass crossover, however with a single cap's 6db crossover you need to move the frequency higher up to at least 2khz in order to protect the mid driver. Shouldn't be a big problem here since the D130 is an extended range woofer that should be able to go to 2khz or more. As such, the woofer will be more directional but on the other hand a 4560 cab is directional anyway on a good part of its range due to the horn.

If you decide to go with 6db get a good quality cap with close tolerance (2-5%), not a cheap 20% tolerance cap as this might shift the frequency too much.

You would probably still need to put a coil in series with the woofer for the low side of a 6 db crossover since these woofers often have a rising response higher up, like MI woofers do. You'll need to assess this further.

Its likely, due to different driver sensitivities, you'll have to pad down the mid driver to match the woofer.

D130 efficiency is rated 6.7%, and 6.3% equals to 100 db sensitivity, half-space, 1W/1M, piston band (per Eargle), so 100db is pretty much what it is. Then the cab's horn adds about 6 db on the woofer's sensitivity.

RE "cut them down, remove the ports top and bottom and make them into a simple enclosure, just keeping the wave guides. I'm guessing this would mean even less bass, which is fine by me, I don't listen to much Skryllex. To my ear they sound beautiful, I've seen a lot of mixed opinions on their sound/value but the reproduction of acoustic instruments is the most lifelike I've heard."

Yes, down sizing the cabs and getting rid of the ports means there will be practically very little low frequencies left.

For the type of frequency response a 4560 cab provides look at the document attached (page 3)

I assume the type of 4560 cab with mid horn at the top you refer to is similar to JBL's 4662/4663 (pic)

EDIT: BTW the 1979 version shown of the 4662/4663 used the JBL K130 woofer. Later JBL used the E140 woofer in it (4663A).

Most issues Riley mentioned would still apply (recone, demag magnet?, measuring, etc.)

Richard

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[grumpy]

Might also do some homework on what a fender d130 and Ampex 150-4 are worth, if in good condition.
You sounded disappointed.

[Evang]

Omigod, Thank you!!! I was beginning to give up hope that there was an audio forum where knowledgable people answered questions, even naive ones, instead of belittling people for a lack of knowledge. Seriously thank you guys for the time, knowledge and wisdom, and just behaving like human beings. Yeah, gotta admit I was hoping for a quick and dirty solution so I could go work on motorcycles but it doesn't look like I'll find anyone who's built a crossover for the 1402, making good things is rarely easy.

Meyer sound wouldn't give out any info but said it was the predecessor to the 1401. do you guys think it will pair well with the jbl's? Richard and Riley, that's great info for getting started, it looks like learning to use rew is going to be the only way to really make a proper crossover, but I have some other options in the meantime. thanks, got a lot to look into. Can anyone give me info on that Ampex 150-4, opinions, best applications.

Grumpy, I was a bit disappointed, not with the Ampex but with the fender, mostly because I was told all of them were the same, which clearly they're not, my own fault really, the Ampex was a bonus, I like em weird. I read the fenders have a smaller voice coils, don't sound as good, maybe bs?Cosmetically they are mostly rough some nice, but fully serviced at some point with new cones, I think 2225h cones, which I assume is less desirable, I don't really care, I think they're beautiful. Still really new to all the Vintage JBL so I don't really know what I've got, I'll post pictures. Any links/suggestions for getting started with rew besides the roomeqwizard? Thanks.

[RMC]

RE "do you guys think it will pair well with the jbl's?"

I'm guessing that it should be acceptable if you do your homework. Hard to say any further when Meyer doesn't want to release any relevant info...

RE "I think 2225h cones, which I assume is less desirable, I don't really care,"

You mention the D130 might have 2225 cone kits, this brings a caution note for use in a 4560 cab (PDF doc i posted, same page 3 but bottom left). The 2225 has much more LF excursion capability than the old D130 or even K130.

Shortly, the space between the woofer and the horn is small in a 4560. Drivers with more cone travel capability could have their cone strike the horn's throat with LF at higher sound levels. To avoid this you simply drive at more conservative power input than what such driver would be capable of. It would still be pretty loud when considering the 103 db or so sensitivity of the woofer (97 db for 2225) plus the horn's contribution (6db).

Richard

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[Riley Casey]

Meyer didn't make drivers of any kind but instead specified custom tweaks to other vendors existing drivers. Post pictures of the Meyer drivers you have and someone will recognize the OEM model and have some suggestions. 2225 recone kits weren't a fit for D130 frames but D140 kits would so heavy ribbed cones with paper domes may be D140 cones with substituted domes or might just be any old after market kit. Again very hard to tell what you have and what direction you can go without measuring.


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Meyer sound wouldn't give out any info but said it was the predecessor to the 1401. do you guys think it will pair well with the jbl's? ...

[Evang]

89658 Pictures of the Meyer's hopefully worked?

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[RMC]

Riley,

RE "2225 recone kits weren't a fit for D130 frames"

Before writing about a D130 possibly having a 2225 recone kit, as mentioned by the OP, i checked in the attached JBL document. Unless there's an error or typo in that official info i assumed its right.

Afterwards, the OP updated his mention to D130A and showed D130F too, which changes things because the D130A is not compatible with others as indicated in doc.

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[Riley Casey]

You're right, I'm wrong. I just did a quick look at my 'goes into' list before I posted which isn't quite a comprehensive view as the document you used.


Riley,

...
Before writing about a D130 possibly having a 2225 recone kit, as mentioned by the OP, i checked in the attached JBL document. Unless there's an error or typo in that official info i assumed its right.

...

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[Evang]

Sorry about all my confusion and general ignorance, this is my first experience with any of these early drivers, been dreaming about making a high efficiency horn for a while now. I bought them in a garage with no lights and was told they were all the same, I should have done more research before posting, got too excited about using them asap. I think I payed a fair price, 100 each.
Thanks for all the information on the 150-4, and the 2225 cones. Do I understand correctly that the d-130a is less full range then the d130? At least one of the cones has 2225 written on its back, another c16r2225. Is there a recone that can give performance similar to the original?

[Evang]

The d-130a has a cone that is stamped 52254 and has in chalk e 140-8, am I right in thinking that this and the apex are the earliest bodies?

[Evang]

Any recommendations on a sound card for running rew? Will a cheap eBay sound card do the trick? Going to try to start getting the necessary measurements and learning the basics of crossover design.

[RMC]

Evan,

You seem to have some "mix and match" type woofers so its not that easy to provide accurate answers.

RE "been dreaming about making a high efficiency horn for a while now."

For better understanding, some applicable principles are given below, then trying to see how they apply to the drivers mentioned.

RE "Do I understand correctly that the d-130a is less full range then the d130?"

Yes. The D130A tech sheet rates it up to 1500 hz and crossover at 1200 hz. The D130 with its Alu dustcap is rated 30-17000 hz! in the spec sheet (+/- db ?), however that seems optimistic in practice, moreover imagine the beaming from a 15" driver, or even from 4" dustcap, going up to high frequencies...

RE "Is there a recone that can give performance similar to the original?"

Maybe Ken at Upland Speaker Service in California, a member here, has one in his reproduction cone kits or some other alternative to get there.

RE "The d-130a has a cone that is stamped 52254 and has in chalk e 140-8,"

An E140 recone on a D130A doesn't seem to make much sense based on the cone kit interchange list i posted. I guess when one's back is to the wall you do what can be done to get some sound out of the driver.

"Today, virtually all LF horns are driven by cone devices whose primary characteristics are low cone mass and high BL product. Keele (1977) determined the cone driver parameters necessary for successful horn application, ..." (John Eargle, Loudspeaker Handbook, 2nd ed., page 205)

Think of BL as indication of driver motor strenght, on the other hand cone mass is easy.

I've often said that low Qts drivers are more suitable for horn loading (as determined by D.B. Keele in a paper), which would seem contradictory with the above quote, however its not in contradiction, consider the following:

"Figure 4-3 shows a family of curves in which the value of Qts is the only variable. This is roughly equivalent to inversely varying the BL product of the driver. Reducing BL (increasing Qts) diminishes the piston band sensitivity of the system, ..." (Eargle, Page 68). Being an inverse relation, then increasing driver BL diminishes Qts! There's many examples of this notably with MI drivers having stronger motor but lower Qts values (e.g. E140)

Btw horn guru Bruce Edgar mentioned in his long interview about horns that drivers proper for horn loading have low Qes (citing Keele), however i checked in Keele's original paper and its not low Qes mentioned but rather low Qts (though these two numbers are often close, so not a big error).

There's another interesting Eargle quote about low Qts woofers, since its not essential to understanding here it will come at some other time.

So one should preferably be looking for high BL, and/or low Qts, as well as low cone mass in horn loading projects. With the driver models you just mentioned, i've attached some pics of their parameters so you can see for yourself, keep in mind this is for original drivers or with proper recones:

130A: low Qts, relatively high BL, low cone mass (MMS), looks like a good candidate.

2225H: first i also highlighted the 2220A on that page for comparison purpose right there since the 130A and 2220 are close cousins. As for the 2225, to beging with note that it is also specified by JBL in the spec sheet for horn use however its not a "natural" or as evident as others: Qts is a little high, BL looks ok, but cone mass (MMS) is pretty high compared to other relevant ones.

D130: Qts is at the limit of what is often considered to be low though still makes it, BL appears somewhat low, but cone mass (MMS) is the smallest of that group!

E140: i've highlighted this one on the same page as above one since you mentioned having an E140 recone on a D130A. Other than the cone's suitability issue, Qts is very low and BL is pretty high that's good, but on the other hand cone mass remains somewhat high (which didn't stop JBL from using it in the 4663A horn-loaded cab).

Bottom line, because a number of your drivers are "hybrids" (ie. frame from one and cone kit from another), you do need to measure things, as mentioned by Riley, in order to know what you really have and can achieve. Even measuring something as simple as each driver's DCR might give a clue.

Hoping the above will help you in understanding these matters.

Richard

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[Riley Casey]

I use a Focusrite 2i2 as an audio interface and a Superlux ECM999 is my low cost mic option. Used on eBay for this kind of thing is usually a good source.

Your posts seem to indicate that you may have a mix of impedances on your 15" drivers. A quick check for that would be a pocket volt meter set for ohms. An 8 ohm speaker will usually measure about 5 ohms on the meter while a 16 speaker will likely measure about 12 ohms. Different speaker impedances will require different crossover components.

Your Meyer high frequency driver look like they might be JBL 2440s. Hard to tell from only the back plate. Posting pics from the side and front would help.

[Evang]

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[Evang]

Thanks, for all the incredible help, really great information. I think I now have some idea of what I need to learn and how to learn it in order to build up these horns right. I'm ordering a sound card tonight and I'll build up an impedance rig first, I'll post some measurements when I have them and I'm sure I'll be asking a lot of questions when I get started on the crossovers.
Those drivers do look unusual, really tall cap, hope the pictures help.

[Mr. Widget]

About 20 years ago I stumbled upon the same Meyer Sound compression drivers that you have. They also had the names and serial numbers deliberately scratched off. The electronics recycling shop where I found them had them priced at $50 ea., so I gave them a go. They worked.

The drivers have a 2.8" diaphragm 1.4" exit and are not JBL, Altec, or Yamaha. I am not sure who made them, but they were not used by Meyer for long. They were used in a speaker called the 500A. That speaker used a horn similar to or identical to the UPA-1A horn. I bought a pair of these horns from Meyer to run the drivers. While there (at Meyer Sound), I asked them about the drivers. They told me that the reason they were disfigured was that they were factory seconds and were meant to go to eWaste and absolutely should not have been sold.

I paired the horns and drivers with a variety of woofers. I was never that happy with them. I eventually found some blown MS-1401 drivers (these were modified and rebadged Yamahas) I bought three and I took these back to Meyer Sound to have them repaired. At that time Meyer was no longer using Yamahas and they gave me an exchange credit for brand new Meyer built MS-1401 drivers. I bought another UPA-1A horn and paired these with three Meyer MS-12 twelve inch woofers and used the three 2-ways as my LCRs in my first home theater.

I wish I had more useful info, but that may give you additional clues to follow.


Widget

[Evang]

Thanks, any information is helpful, yeah they don't appear to resemble Yamaha diaphragms to me. Every one I've seen has the impedance measurements ground off like mine. Maybe a dumpster diver back then rescued all these 1402's that are out there, there was a lot of that back then in Berkeley. My favorites where the scharfenberger chocolate factory and the triple rock brewery dumpster, every night it had six packs just sitting in there. I'm getting parts together, going to measure everything and post as soon as I've learned to use rew.

[Evang]

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Something I noticed, the information removed contains a patent pending mark, may be they infringed on another patent, but no serial numbers would make sense for factory rejects. I don't have enough knowledge to tell if the suspension is coated aluminum or phenolic, but it looked like coated aluminum to me. I would have thought discontinued line more likely, I've worked in manufacturing and can't see a company throwing out good parts like the caps magnets and covers if they were still manufacturing that product, but you never know.

[RMC]

Evan,

Would be sad to see all that gear going in the dumptster specially since you paid for it.

Widget's insight is often wisdom too, not just insight. He's a trained ear and has critical listening ability, which you may not have yet. In other words your performance expectations might be at a different level than his.

Personnaly, I'd hate to just get rid of the stuff without at least trying to make something out of this whole bunch of drivers you got. But initially would keep things simple and consider this simply as a testing phase to determine if there's hope or not.

No need to invest much money that you may regret later, simply do the basics. For example, if DCR measures ok then you can go to next step, making acceptable boxes to load them in, do some more measurements, and also extensive listening with different program material.

if they sound awful then you'll have no choice, but if their sound is acceptable to your ears then you can go further. Moving step by step will keep you from having too high expectations initially, plus avoid throwing lots of money at a potential problem. Knowing when to stop or keep pumping is part of the game in speaker building.

Start with the drivers you judge to be the most "hopefuls" among what you have and take it from there.

Richard