Need help to understand power requirements for 4355 and use of external crossovers

[markustubesnow]

Realizing how little I actually know is turning out to be kind of fun. I have many more questions than answers and every time I learn something new the list of questions only seems to get longer. :D

Here's the background:
I've been driving my 4430s with ~7 watt 300B triodes, and loving the sound. Most of my listening is actually at comparatively low volume. Right now I'm listening to my Quads (2805s) in the near field at about 60dB, driven by a Quad 909 solid state amp. If I switch to the 4430s I'm right about the same volume, so even though it's only 7 watts I seem to have all the control, dynamics and headroom I need. But what do I know? :blink:

Now it looks like I'll soon have a pair of 4355s. They require bi-amping and it appears that conventional wisdom is that the bottom end should be driven by an amp with a couple hundred watts. Is this correct? Or is it a function of room size and how loud a person desires to listen? If everything comes together and I become the happy new owner of the 4355s I'll need to buy another stereo amp. That will be a function of what I can afford.

What direction should I go? Should I seek out something like, say, an old Hafler 200 watt amplifier to drive the woofers? I've been planning on driving the top end with the 300B triode amp. Can I drive the bottom end with, say, 50 watts?

Will I need an external crossover? My preamp has the ability to drive three amplifiers. Right now I have one setup for the 300B stereo amp and another output for the Quad 909. When I bi-amp the 4355s will I need an external crossover or will the existing, stock, internal crossover/network suffice so that, in effect, I can drive the amps with a full range signal and the networks will tailor the signal to the drivers?

When I see pictures of 4355s they all seem to have a pair of big, monstrous solid state amps sitting between them. Like Macintosh, Plinius, Rowland or whatever. I don't think I've seen anyone driving them with tubes. Why is that?

Thanks, in advance, for any wisdom anyone can share.

[speakerdave]

I like your collection in that it represents a selection of distinctly different approaches. The 4355's will be very different—at the far other end of the spectrum from Quads. I've never heard them called refined, or that someone liked them for cozying up. Speakers, especially ones with multiple drivers, tend to come into their own at a particular range of sound levels. The 4355's are built to make big sound in big spaces. You can certainly give them a trial with the amps you have, but I think that if you want to explore their capabilities, you will want more power for both the woofers and the higher ranges.

You will need an external line level crossover to divide the frequencies at about 250 to 300Hz. The crossover will feed the power amps and provide a suitable load for your preamp.

[Mr. Widget]

Here's the background:
I've been driving my 4430s with ~7 watt 300B triodes, and loving the sound. Most of my listening is actually at comparatively low volume. Right now I'm listening to my Quads (2805s) in the near field at about 60dB, driven by a Quad 909 solid state amp. If I switch to the 4430s I'm right about the same volume, so even though it's only 7 watts I seem to have all the control, dynamics and headroom I need. But what do I know? :blink:

Now it looks like I'll soon have a pair of 4355s. They require bi-amping and it appears that conventional wisdom is that the bottom end should be driven by an amp with a couple hundred watts. Is this correct?Ok, so you like to listen at extremely low SPLs. That's fine and in the long run will preserve your hearing... but why are you planning on getting a pair of 4355s? This seems to be a big mismatch between user and equipment.

The 4355 was developed to playback rock music to stoned musicians that had been blasting their hearing for hours in the studio... and they do this quite well. Listening to the nuanced sounds of 300B tubes at SPLs below what most acoustic instruments produce is not really their forte.




Will I need an external crossover?If you get 4355s yes.



When I bi-amp the 4355s will I need an external crossover or will the existing, stock, internal crossover/network suffice so that, in effect, I can drive the amps with a full range signal and the networks will tailor the signal to the drivers?
The internal crossover does not have a built in filter for the crossover between the dual 15" woofers and the 12" mid bass woofer. If you do not use an external active (or passive) crossover your 15" woofers will be fed full range music and will cover up the mid bass and midrange frequencies with their unfiltered output. The 12" mid bass woofer will attempt to produce lower frequencies, but since it will acoustically roll off naturally and since it is a robust device, the speaker will not be harmed and the ill effects will be more subtle than that of the 2235H woofers reproducing 1.5Khz at surprisingly high levels.



When I see pictures of 4355s they all seem to have a pair of big, monstrous solid state amps sitting between them. Like Macintosh, Plinius, Rowland or whatever. I don't think I've seen anyone driving them with tubes. Why is that?I'm sure that many have been powered by tube amps, but see above. The purpose of these speakers is to reproduce a Marshall stack at 120dB or a rock drum kit with its dynamics and SPL intact... to do this requires massive amounts of power.

Also, these speakers require that you sit back at least 8-10 ft for the drivers to properly blend and they are not small so you end up needing a fairly sizable room which again calls for more power.


Widget

[markd51]

Quite an interesting dilemma you have. Wish I had such problems to sort through!

But I have to question in this particular instance, why would you want such a speaker which to me is at the total other opposite end of the spectrum, unless you can acquire these speakers for a give away price?

This is almost like asking "Which Ferrari should I buy for day to day grocery shopping and running errands to the hardware store?"

You mention the ownership of the 4430 which I own. Sure, with their efficiency, I imagine a small Amp-Receiver could power these, I could probably hook a good ole Sansui Seven to them, and at what, 40-45wpc and get very enjoyable sound at some pretty decent SPL sound levels to boot in an average sized room, but one could find 100's of other Amps to better power, and deliver gobs of much better sonics also.

As you have many questions, and if I was in your shoes, I might likely ask as my very first questions, what would the fine folks here then recommend for a very good quality external Crossover to mate with this Speaker?

Then go from there. I'd imagine amplifier pairing could be infinite. All Tube, or Solid State for the Bass Drivers, Tube for the rest, or a plethora of SS, Class A, Class AB, Class D Amps.

One could probably run 2 tiny Bel Canto Amps to power the whole smear, which both would take up the equivalent space of an everyday thrift shop find 1986 Samsung-JVC Wally World VCR. And although small, might throw enough SPLs that in a year or so, you'll be looking to buy hearing aids. LOL

I never heard this particular speaker, but I'd have a good hankering of what directions I'd be going with Amplification, and as Roland Martin the Champion Bass Fisherman might say, "Son, we're talking Big Watts!" LOL

I'd be throwing my two Bryston 7BSST2 600w Mono amps for the Bottom, and another smaller Bryston Stereo Amp for up top as one example. IMO, that's how such a speaker should be "properly driven".

But what the hell do I know?

[BMWCCA]

If everything comes together and I become the happy new owner of the 4355s I'll need to buy another stereo amp. That will be a function of what I can afford.Time to talk about budget now that you know you'll need new amps and a crossover. The crossover alone could bust your budget. Or you could do as I did with my 4345 and go with a used Ashly XR1001 for $125. My Crown PS400 and PS200 amps cost around $400. I would recommend something like that if your amp and crossover budget was less than, say, $2,000. If your amp and crossover budget is over $10k, then I'm not qualified to offer suggestions!
:dont-know:

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Mark,

I had an email like this a while ago.


Your post suggests your about sound quality.

I would use your Quad 909 on the woofers and the 300B for a period to evaluate your requirements.

Avoid a SH Hafler.

Have a look around for a SH First Watt B4 discrete Jfet crossover.
Once you have that sorted have a good listen

From here you have a number of things to evolve and refine the sound quality.

1. A charge coupled crossover
2. Diaphragm or compression driver upgrade
3. A horn upgrade like the Joseph Crowe horns (CN).
4. A Quick Silver valve power amp rated at 50+50 watts
6. A big Rotel SS power amp (no fans) on the woofers.
7. Check out Troels diy loudspeaker website on the A1 loudspeaker design.
8. Check out this kit

https://www.xkitz.com/collections/active-crossovers-and-bi-amplifiers-1

I would suggest you can get close to electrostatic accuracy with dynamics. if you are patient and prepared to put some work into it

What you have is a wide bandwidth clinically accurate multi way loudspeaker waiting to be reborn.
Some magazine reviewers use similar vintage systems like Altec for their dynamic life like qualities.

Have fun and enjoy the journey.

[Robh3606]

Don't skimp on the low end. You have 2 2235's in parallel so the impendence can drop to 4 ohms of lower. Just keep that in mind.

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

What you have is a wide bandwidth clinically accurate multi way loudspeaker waiting to be reborn.The JBL M2 is a wide bandwidth clinically accurate multi-way loudspeaker. I think calling the 4355 that is a stretch.


Have fun and enjoy the journey.Well, then there is that. There is much that can be done with these speakers in the analog or digital realms that will provide a wonderfully rewarding journey.

I don’t see these speakers ever matching a pair of good electrostats in sub 100dB SPL playback... except perhaps in the lowest octaves. But there is no denying that one can spend years tweaking and modding them to great effect.


Widget

[markd51]

I know very little about JBL Electronics, but might guess that back in the day and in their Pro Catalogs, they had such as Crossovers to work with these very speakers, am I correct?

I might also guess acquiring such components might be quite hard, that such might be as rare as Hen's Teeth?

I see one reasonable priced unit mentioned here.That would be a start of the search for such, or other similar components with similar features.

Again, I would assume this would be termed "Pro Gear, and as such, wouldn't such components be a common sundry item at places like Guitar Center, Musician's Friend, and others like these businesses I mention?

I love such topics as this, because of the share of information, and learning more about such speakers and what they would require for proper operation.

[Robh3606]

I know very little about JBL Electronics, but might guess that back in the day and in their Pro Catalogs, they had such as Crossovers to work with these very speakers, am I correct?

I might also guess acquiring such components might be quite hard, that such might be as rare as Hen's Teeth?

I see one reasonable priced unit mentioned here.That would be a start of the search for such, or other similar components with similar features.

Again, I would assume this would be termed "Pro Gear, and as such, wouldn't such components be a common sundry item at places like Guitar Center, Musician's Friend, and others like these businesses I mention?

I love such topics as this, because of the share of information, and learning more about such speakers and what they would require for proper operation.

Look up 5234/5235 they used plug in cards both 12 and 18dB. Also had specialized cards for the monitors 433X 434X's and some cinema systems. Then you had the Digital and Analog for the DMS-1. The last were the M552/553 I think which were in Guitar Center. There are others as well. Just go digging through the library.

Rob:)

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/catalogs/1980-pro/page23.jpg

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/catalogs/1998-pro/page51.jpg

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/catalogs/1998-pro/page50.jpg

[markustubesnow]

Gentlemen - I feel like the ideas I've written below are scattered and unfocused. Please accept my apologies in advance. I don't mean to be frustrating and will try to be more systematic in my future replies.

Thanks for everyone's comments, questions and advice. They are all appreciated very much. As I mentioned, the more I "learn" (not sure I'm learning yet, but I do appreciate the ideas and topics which I'll have to research and from that research and the ongoing advice of this august form, surely I will absorb and get something through my thick skull, right?) So please forgive any questions I ask to which your natural response would be "why are you considering this option when you've already been advised of a better way to do this?"

By way of explanation let me say I'm wary of how far to increase the scope of this project. For instance, looking at the internal, stock wiring, I'm struck by how thin it is. Surely, nowadays anyone refurbishing these speakers would be sure to replace the thin, stock wiring with something newer, thicker and better, right? Well, probably. Like I said, my inclination is not to try to perfect it to state of the art, but to get them together so they work. Improvements can come later. But, just like it makes sense to do some things "while I've got the car up on the rack" your collective advise will help me get more comfortable with more ambitious and advanced tweaks and upgrades.

As to the question "why" am I doing this? I thought Mr. Widget and MarkD51 framed this question very well. It's simply a matter that this project fell right into my lap. I've had to do some fancy explaining to convince my wife that it's a good idea (I'm still not sure she's convinced) but I've always lusted after 43XX series JBL monitors, though I've had limited exposure to them. I'm thinking of these as an experiment. At the price I don't think I'll lose money if it turns out I need to move them along.

These speakers are coming with the 3155 network. Does that help? I'm still fuzzy one why I'll need an external crossover, but I'm not resistant to the idea. Just still scratching my head about it a little bit.

Yes, budget will be a factor in selecting whatever amps and crossover I go with. For some reason when I have tried to use my Quad 909 with my 4430s it's "motor boated" - that is, I've heard a loud, deep hum. Took the 909 into the shop and spent $100 to find out there's nothing wrong with it. It works perfectly with my 2805 electrostatics. I plan to look around on Craigslist and pick up an external crossover and a couple of amps, like the Crowns mentioned on this thread, to get these up and running. I'd love to put higher-pedigree amps on these things but need to be a little conservative about the $$.

I'll be researching the charge coupled crossover. I'm guessing if it's a good idea for the 4355s then it might be a good choice for the 4430s, right?

Should I plan on having the 3155 network refurbished to replace aging components? I don't think the crossover in my 4430 has ever been serviced and it seems to function ok. There's a local guy who advertises repair and construction of crossovers, so there's a potential resource. Any advice about what to pay attention to before I go shopping for the crossover will be appreciated. I'm crossing my fingers that whatever I buy will be adjustable, for where to set the crossover point and slope rate.

Any advice about the kind of wire I should use if I upgrade the internal wiring?

[markd51]

Gentlemen - I feel like the ideas I've written below are scattered and unfocused. Please accept my apologies in advance. I don't mean to be frustrating and will try to be more systematic in my future replies.

Thanks for everyone's comments, questions and advice. They are all appreciated very much. As I mentioned, the more I "learn" (not sure I'm learning yet, but I do appreciate the ideas and topics which I'll have to research and from that research and the ongoing advice of this august form, surely I will absorb and get something through my thick skull, right?) So please forgive any questions I ask to which your natural response would be "why are you considering this option when you've already been advised of a better way to do this?"

By way of explanation let me say I'm wary of how far to increase the scope of this project. For instance, looking at the internal, stock wiring, I'm struck by how thin it is. Surely, nowadays anyone refurbishing these speakers would be sure to replace the thin, stock wiring with something newer, thicker and better, right? Well, probably. Like I said, my inclination is not to try to perfect it to state of the art, but to get them together so they work. Improvements can come later. But, just like it makes sense to do some things "while I've got the car up on the rack" your collective advise will help me get more comfortable with more ambitious and advanced tweaks and upgrades.

As to the question "why" am I doing this? I thought Mr. Widget and MarkD51 framed this question very well. It's simply a matter that this project fell right into my lap. I've had to do some fancy explaining to convince my wife that it's a good idea (I'm still not sure she's convinced) but I've always lusted after 43XX series JBL monitors, though I've had limited exposure to them. I'm thinking of these as an experiment. At the price I don't think I'll lose money if it turns out I need to move them along.

These speakers are coming with the 3155 network. Does that help? I'm still fuzzy one why I'll need an external crossover, but I'm not resistant to the idea. Just still scratching my head about it a little bit.

Yes, budget will be a factor in selecting whatever amps and crossover I go with. For some reason when I have tried to use my Quad 909 with my 4430s it's "motor boated" - that is, I've heard a loud, deep hum. Took the 909 into the shop and spent $100 to find out there's nothing wrong with it. It works perfectly with my 2805 electrostatics. I plan to look around on Craigslist and pick up an external crossover and a couple of amps, like the Crowns mentioned on this thread, to get these up and running. I'd love to put higher-pedigree amps on these things but need to be a little conservative about the $$.

I'll be researching the charge coupled crossover. I'm guessing if it's a good idea for the 4355s then it might be a good choice for the 4430s, right?

Should I plan on having the 3155 network refurbished to replace aging components? I don't think the crossover in my 4430 has ever been serviced and it seems to function ok. There's a local guy who advertises repair and construction of crossovers, so there's a potential resource. Any advice about what to pay attention to before I go shopping for the crossover will be appreciated. I'm crossing my fingers that whatever I buy will be adjustable, for where to set the crossover point and slope rate.

Any advice about the kind of wire I should use if I upgrade the internal wiring?

As for Internal Wiring, I would say running to the 2235H Drivers, use good quality 12ga Copper Hook up wire, which would be specific for such a task, and 16ga should be fine everywhere else.

Do it piecemeal, to hopefully insure you don't mix up polarity to any of the drivers.

I know nothing about the 3155 Network, but perhaps this would negate the need for an external Crossover I'm thinking? At least short term.

As for the 4430 Speakers, that's another can of worms. I've heard some discuss that the Switch on back for internal-external Crossover is a weak point-link, and to bypass such. I've not done such to mine, and think for the foreseeable future will leave such alone unless I start having issues with that Switch.

As I age, I've become more and more of being in the camp of, "if it isn't broke, don't fix it". LOL

[markd51]

Just as I thought, the 3155 "is" a dividing network. This has opened my eyes, and as well no doubt some others, that your worries might be over.

To say that this particular dividing network is in fine shape, needs work or refurb or not I cannot say?
But there might be those here that have been down this very same path with these components, and can help in whatever way they can.

Whether they need checking-testing, perhaps can provide or point you to white sheets and manuals? And if in the event of needing work, who or where could perform such?

If all is well, then much of your worries might be over.

I'd be the last here to call myself a "JBL Authority", but I doubt anyone here would contest what I'm about to say, and that is, that these are truly one heck of a very special speaker system, "The baddest of the bad"!, that some would probably donate a Kidney to possess.

Again, and from some things you note, wimpy internal wiring, and we don't know whatever shortcomings they might have, Veneer, baffle paint, or other cosmetics, drivers in need of repair or re-foaming-etc, but I'd say they'd be worth every penny to properly restore to their former brand new glory.

As to whatever design and manufacture shortcomings the very best technical minds here might have to say about this particular Speaker System, you would probably be shocked and your jaw would hit the floor to find out what such a system today would cost to build by JBL.

And that many would say what you have here is one very rare and highly desirable speaker, and one which will give a degree of sonic nirvana that cannot be accomplished by virtually any other speaker made, both yesterday, and today.

Again, and perhaps unlike the Japanese, who would set such a speaker up in a 12'x12' room because that's often the way things are in Japan, these speakers deserve some square footage space to "breathe", and good quality Amplification will most definitely bring out the best that these speakers can offer.

"Small Watts" will of course let these speakers play. But more serious Amplification will provide headroom, and distortion free power to them. And again if it were me, I'd want some good power going to those Bass Drivers, I might be inclined to say 300wpc. And up top, probably an honest 100wpc minimum should work fine.

I'd likely be inclined to stick with similar brand and model type Amps so they might integrate and play well together, but that's just me. I'd be the type that would try to give these speakers what they deserve to have.
And since I'm not top crazy about Tube Amplification, rolling tubes, and all the other headaches that might be associated with Tube Gear, my choices would be Solid State Amplification.

Tubes, sure a nice Tube PreAmp could be used to go along with.

Just some brain farts, but hope others will further help you here.

[grumpy]

Replies #2 and #3 were sufficient... helpful as the rest was intended.
There are two sets of speaker inputs for each speaker.

One pair of terminals goes to the woofers directly (IIRC). The other goes to the internal, passive crossover (drives -only- the 12", the horn and the tweeter). They are electrically separate.

That is why you will need an electronic crossover and a 2nd amp. One amp to power the woofers and one amp to power the crossover and the remaining speakers. The electronic crossover accepts your preamp signal, and then it sends LF to the woofer amp and everything else (above 290-300Hz) to the amp for the MF/HF/UHF network and drivers.

I (sort of) humbly suggest you stay out of rewiring, crossover updating, or other value reducing endeavors, until you understand how it all works and you get some satisfactory sound out of them. They worked just fine in state of the art recording studios at the time... weenie cables and all. Might have to check connections at or inside drivers if some element isn't playing (and L-pads if not working properly).

89023

If you subsequently wanted to go bonkers with the passive crossover portion :) :

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?40852-Charge-Coupled-Crossover-Schematic-for-JBL-4355&p=415320&viewfull=1#post415320

[speakerdave]

Replies #2 and #3 were sufficient... helpful as the rest was intended.

Yes, the signal to noise ratio is sagging.

[speakerdave]

. . . I've had to do some fancy explaining to convince my wife that it's a good idea (I'm still not sure she's convinced) but I've always lusted after 43XX series JBL monitors, though I've had limited exposure to them. . . .

:)Hmmm. My wife once commented that stamps or coins might be an interesting collectible. I was only at the 4333A stage then. 4345's and stacks of plain plywood boxes topped with horns came later.

[markd51]

Replies #2 and #3 were sufficient... helpful as the rest was intended.
There are two sets of speaker inputs for each speaker.

One pair of terminals goes to the woofers directly (IIRC). The other goes to the internal, passive crossover (drives -only- the 12", the horn and the tweeter). They are electrically separate.

That is why you will need an electronic crossover and a 2nd amp. One amp to power the woofers and one amp to power the crossover and the remaining speakers. The electronic crossover accepts your preamp signal, and then it sends LF to the woofer amp and everything else (above 290-300Hz) to the amp for the MF/HF/UHF network and drivers.

I (sort of) humbly suggest you stay out of rewiring, crossover updating, or other value reducing endeavors, until you understand how it all works and you get some satisfactory sound out of them. They worked just fine in state of the art recording studios at the time... weenie cables and all. Might have to check connections at or inside drivers if some element isn't playing (and L-pads if not working properly).

89023

If you subsequently wanted to go bonkers with the passive crossover portion :) :

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?40852-Charge-Coupled-Crossover-Schematic-for-JBL-4355&p=415320&viewfull=1#post415320

So thanks you two for making me feel sorry for participating, sorry I cannot keep up with the self annointed hoi poloi.

It's no wonder why my post count is so low here

[markd51]

To re-hash, although the 3155 Network is supposedly present, this is only a dividing network to provide proper frequencies to all other drivers "other than the Bass Drivers:, correct?

And that is why a external crossover is still needed, to "only" provide the required low frequencies suitable to drive Woofers, correct?

My ignorance only shows because I never owned such a pair of speakers, and how the internal networks are engineered and laid out. I no doubt would've known this by simply reading the factory brochure had I had such in front of me.

I'm not as experienced as some or many here, but don't place me in the mongo category just to make yourselves feel high and mighty

[markustubesnow]

Don't stop commenting and sharing your thoughts. I've found them thought provoking and stimulating.


So thanks you two for making me feel sorry for participating, sorry I cannot keep up with the self annointed hoi poloi.

It's no wonder why my post count is so low here

[markustubesnow]

This:


To re-hash, although the 3155 Network is supposedly present, this is only a dividing network to provide proper frequencies to all other drivers "other than the Bass Drivers:, correct?

And that is why a external crossover is still needed, to "only" provide the required low frequencies suitable to drive Woofers, correct?

My ignorance only shows because I never owned such a pair of speakers, and how the internal networks are engineered and laid out. I no doubt would've known this by simply reading the factory brochure had I had such in front of me.

I'm not as experienced as some or many here, but don't place me in the mongo category just to make yourselves feel high and mighty

Right? This is pretty much what I was thinking. And I was able to read the factory brochure for the first time last week. It does not say an external crossover is required. It does say bi-amplification is required. Perhaps they assume that any experienced user/sound engineer would already be aware of the need for an external crossover so they don't think it's necessary to mention it.:blink: :confused:

[Mr. Widget]

...This is pretty much what I was thinking. And I was able to read the factory brochure for the first time last week. It does not say an external crossover is required. It does say bi-amplification is required. Perhaps they assume that any experienced user/sound engineer would already be aware of the need for an external crossover so they don't think it's necessary to mention it.:blink: :confused:The 4350 and mildly updated 4355 were never intended for consumer use. The documentation certainly assumes the reader understands the difference between passive and active networks, balanced electronics, and how to use an external equalizer and measurement equipment before powering up the speakers for music playback.

As has been stated before, these speakers are anything but plug and play.


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Mark,

My prior post was to convey a sense of being open minded about your new possessions.

Sometime ago a friend who has been a Quad owner of thirty years heard a similar 4 way Jbl system to the 4355 and was impressed. Some people stack Quads to improve the dynamic range. A more elegant approach is a more efficient loudspeaker.

If you go to the forum library there is a whole section on the 4350/4355 and how they came about.
It’s worth a read to get a perspective on the strengths of this system.

My approach with these multi way systems is to respect the design by using it correctly in the first I instance. A lot of users skip that step and then end up being disappointed.

An important consideration is to understand how to deploy the 4355/4350 in a domestic setting.
The majority of vintage users simply put them on the floor. However in a professional application they are inverted and mounted overhead or SOFIT mounted into a wall. This was common practice.

One of the benefits of the above approach is to control the behaviour of the loudspeaker in the room below 250 hertz and to position the mid high frequency array such that it fires directly to the listened well clear of any larger flat surfaces like a floor.

Why is this important?
The baffle on the 4355 is huge and larger than any other jbl monitors. That’s good and bad.
A loudspeaker baffle has a huge impact on the low frequency behaviour of a loudspeaker once placed in a real acoustic environment. Such large baffles act as an acoustic reflector in the environment and couple to room boundaries very easily. In comparison a small or narrow baffle was as a diffraction lens.

So what does this mean?
The science behind this is saying keep this loudspeaker away from room boundaries.
That is not going to be very practical in a domestic living room. However some relief can be obtained by placing the system on a suitable support to get it off the floor. Like two crates to evaluate the effect. Bringing the enclosure out from the wall behind it will also have an effect.

Subjectively the effect is ghosting of the bass, mid bass and midrange. The loudspeaker will sound dull, blurred and lifeless.

That is my tip before you make any lasting impressions.

The next most important thing is the active crossover.
If your used to the transparency of the Quads a mass market electronic crossover is a No No.

Those drivers deserve better and it can be done without a huge outlay. The link below is to a small business that is making modules that can be easily used to build up a high quality active crossover and they offer support too. The actual integrated circuits used a very good audio grade that are used in premium hifi equipment.

Noise and transparency is the problem with active crossovers. They tend to scrub the sound of all the fidelity. The problem is hidden in that many users assume the active crossover is transparent and they are none the wiser. Wrong.

I purchased these modules late last year but have not had an opportunity to evaluate it yet. All you need to do is put in in a metal chassis. There are organisations that do that with custom milled holes for the connector.
These modules will out perform the common Ashly analogue crossover.

You can also try the DBX drive rack or the BSS Blue digital crossover but they are more complicated to set up.

As l have stated keep an open mind and above all give it a fighting chance.



https://www.xkitz.com/collections/active-crossovers-and-bi-amplifiers-1

[grumpy]

Hey markd51. Wasn't personal... There's just a lot to sort through and it seemed like there was a lot of information flying around. Thought some focus might be helpful.

[Ian Mackenzie]

The 3155 crossover is better than the prior version but uses Mylar capacitors bypassed by small value polypropylene caps.

Great back in that era. But again they muffle the sound (yes you can actually hear it) and you might be tempted to move them on. There are forum members around who can help you sort the crossover. The wire is fine.

They have a big sound. But beyond that the more you understand this loudspeaker the more you will get out of it in terms of musical enjoyment.

[markd51]

Hey markd51. Wasn't personal... There's just a lot to sort through and it seemed like there was a lot of information flying around. Thought some focus might be helpful.

Thank you for consideration and also the technical info behind these Studio Monitors.

If anything, and if I was in the original poster's situation, I'd probably take a step back. And as well, let's for say if such speakers were acquired personally I bought them with an offer that I just could not refuse, I loved them, but perhaps at current day they weren't a fit. Then I'd maybe sit on them for a length of time, contemplate what my options were.

Maybe in the end, I might possibly conclude that I bit off more than I could chew, and I'd release them to their "rightful owner". I am well aware, that speakers such as these will never depreciate!

I gather Mr Greg Timbers was associated with this design throughout. They are like a rare Duesenberg, Auburn Speedster, maybe copied, but never aagin to be truly duplicated and realized.

Again my apologies, I am often said by some to be a quite condescending person, I try very hard not to be.
I thought I could offer some food for thought and some small shred of help and ideas.

I cannot afford to play with the big boys, such as some owners of some certain audio forums who have a wall of McIntosh worth a million clams. I'll omit his name here. He'll buy a pair of L-300's for a paltry $5K, buy a Ferrari 458 Italia like I bought a Polish Sausage on Maxwell St, the finest of firearms, watches, homes (2) Mac 2.5KW Amps, piece of cake. Such people, God bless them, but I'm not one who likes some person rubbing their wealth (or their knowledge) in my face either. It's more a turn off to me.

Again, and to the original poster, I hope my comments have not caused a reluctance of the more knowledgeable members assisting you and then this thread gets flushed down the toilet.

I'll try hard to write less, and listen-read more.


I'd say roughly, I probably have about $30K invested in my system. That's quite far for someone like myself. I'm just an old hack who earned his living working on Trains for 30 years.

[grumpy]

Agreed… and although you need no approval from me, you have a very fine system and are obviously concerned to get the most out of it. That comes through loud and clear :D

As has been stated, there’s a lot involved in just getting such a system as the 4355 just functioning at a basic level, let alone upgrading. That seemed like step 1.

Hoping we haven’t deterred the OP from exploring, experimenting, and coming back with questions, feedback, opinions, and pictures (of course)!

funny… I think the only stereo items I’ve bought new were my L150As and my preamp… oh, and a set Koss Pro headphones and a JCP receiver, haha (high school, making $2/hr)

[markustubesnow]

Geez. Where to start. So much useful information and well-written technical explanation. I'm blown away by your willingness to guide and educate me.

I have been wondering if I've bit off more than I can chew. It would help if my listening room didn't have ~4,000 LPs in IKEA Expedit shelving taking up virtually the whole end of the room (on the end near my preamp, DAC, turntable and amplifiers) and another ~1,500 LPs and hundreds of books in shelving on the other.

I'm thinking I might need to place these speakers on rolling dollies. That would get the bottoms about 8 inches off the floor, somewhat to address Ian's very helpful comments about why they used to be mounted in soffits in the studios.

I followed the link to the 3155-equivalent charge-capacitor network (is that the correct term?) and sent the image to the local Tech for an estimate. In the meantime I followed the link to the Xkitz crossover. Those look awesome and they're not too expensive.

Best regards, all, and many thanks.

[Robh3606]

Geez. Where to start. So much useful information and well-written technical explanation. I'm blown away by your willingness to guide and educate me.

I have been wondering if I've bit off more than I can chew. It would help if my listening room didn't have ~4,000 LPs in IKEA Expedit shelving taking up virtually the whole end of the room (on the end near my preamp, DAC, turntable and amplifiers) and another ~1,500 LPs and hundreds of books in shelving on the other.

I'm thinking I might need to place these speakers on rolling dollies. That would get the bottoms about 8 inches off the floor, somewhat to address Ian's very helpful comments about why they used to be mounted in soffits in the studios.

I followed the link to the 3155-equivalent charge-capacitor network (is that the correct term?) and sent the image to the local Tech for an estimate. In the meantime I followed the link to the Xkitz crossover. Those look awesome and they're not too expensive.

Best regards, all, and many thanks.

Hello Markus

I think we are giving you way to much information. The best thing is to keep it simple. I have attached a thread that has the 4350 Manual. It will work fine with 4355's. Don't get hung up on the active crossover. Just use a conventional analog 24dB L/R like a JBL M552 to get you started. You can do all the refinements mentioned at a later date. Just get them working first!

Dollies are a great idea!


http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34930-4350-manual&highlight=4350

[Mr. Widget]

But, just like it makes sense to do some things "while I've got the car up on the rack" your collective advise will help me get more comfortable with more ambitious and advanced tweaks and upgrades....

Any advice about the kind of wire I should use if I upgrade the internal wiring?


The 3155 crossover is better than the prior version but uses Mylar capacitors bypassed by small value polypropylene caps.

Great back in that era. But again they muffle the sound...Replacing the wiring is the easiest thing you can do, upgrading the caps is probably the next easiest thing you can do, but let's step back and put things in order of importance.

Driver status:

The woofers. Are they still 2235H woofers with original cones and mass rings? Have they they had new surrounds put on them or aftermarket kits?

The 2202H, these are very likely fine, as long as there is no sign of visible damage. These speakers have long lasting cloth surrounds and long lasting ferrite magnets.

The 2441 drivers. Likely 50/50 that they will need a rebuild. Original diaphragms are hard to come by, there are the Truextent diagrams at a premium cost and performance change.

The 2405H drivers. Likely damaged or out of spec. Impossible to repair at present. The only solution is to look for suitable replacements with verified performance.

The Networks:

Best option is to pull the originals and keep for collectors value.
Replace with charge coupled networks.

Clean/replace the L-Pads.
Clean/replace the input terminals.

Now you can consider replacing the wire... in my opinion any quality wire will be an upgrade and of little consequence.

How to hook them up:

After all that, you will need an active or line level passive crossover. The JBLs of the era will not likely be at a performance level commensurate with your existing electronics. The JBLs are also balanced with required pro audio drive levels... you will probably get hum and be disappointed. Bryston, Marchand, Pass Labs/First Watt are all top flight crossovers. You will need one that is adjustable or order it per JBL specs.

Now you can think of your amplifiers. Oh yeah, that... both the LP and HP sections of this speaker are 96dB or higher at 1 watt/m. If you do not plan on playing higher than 96dB which is quite possible, you can get away with very few watts. That said, you do need to be able to control the back EMF of the woofers so amps with higher damping factors are better suited.


Widget

[markd51]

So, ideally, and "keeping it in the family" so to speak, the missing link would be the JBL Dividing Network?
I looked it up on the 4355 Brochure, the model number eludes me at the moment.

This?

file:///C:/Users/Owner/AppData/Local/Temp/5234a_manual.pdf

Or some more modern form-equivalent that would share the same specs as far as rolloff. Which is what, 12db per octave? Or 18db?

After that electronically, the rest seems easy, two Amps of personal choice, and a good hank of some decent DIY Speaker Cable.

I know there's lot of inexpensive Crown Amps with various models-lines that could work, many now have RCA inputs, and I would think would be compatible with a PreAmp.

I'd prefer something without cooling fans if they can be avoided.

[markustubesnow]

So. There's a refurbished JBL M552 crossover on the 'bay for over ~$400

Might one of the new, current production crossovers, like the JBL 223XS, the 234S or 234XS work? They're cheaper than the M552, just sayin'. Might they fill the bill? Or is there something about them that renders them less desireable?

Thanks all. Superb bit of work here...:)

[markustubesnow]

Replacing the wiring is the easiest thing you can do, upgrading the caps is probably the next easiest thing you can do, but let's step back and put things in order of importance.

Driver status:

The woofers. Are they still 2235H woofers with original cones and mass rings? Have they they had new surrounds put on them or aftermarket kits?

The 2202H, these are very likely fine, as long as there is no sign of visible damage. These speakers have long lasting cloth surrounds and long lasting ferrite magnets.

The 2441 drivers. Likely 50/50 that they will need a rebuild. Original diaphragms are hard to come by, there are the Truextent diagrams at a premium cost and performance change.

The 2405H drivers. Likely damaged or out of spec. Impossible to repair at present. The only solution is to look for suitable replacements with verified performance.

The Networks:

Best option is to pull the originals and keep for collectors value.
Replace with charge coupled networks.

Clean/replace the L-Pads.
Clean/replace the input terminals.

Now you can consider replacing the wire... in my opinion any quality wire will be an upgrade and of little consequence.

How to hook them up:

After all that, you will need an active or line level passive crossover. The JBLs of the era will not likely be at a performance level commensurate with your existing electronics. The JBLs are also balanced with required pro audio drive levels... you will probably get hum and be disappointed. Bryston, Marchand, Pass Labs/First Watt are all top flight crossovers. You will need one that is adjustable or order it per JBL specs.

Now you can think of your amplifiers. Oh yeah, that... both the LP and HP sections of this speaker are 96dB or higher at 1 watt/m. If you do not plan on playing higher than 96dB which is quite possible, you can get away with very few watts. That said, you do need to be able to control the back EMF of the woofers so amps with higher damping factors are better suited.


Widget

Woofers are 2225H rec-coned by someone who knows what he's doing with the correct kits to 2235H.
All drivers are said to be working properly. Will check them at next opportunity.
Regarding the crossover, my preamp does have a balanced output. In your opinion can I get away with something like the current production JBL/Harmon 223XS or 234S? They are 24dB L/R.

[markd51]

Replacing the wiring is the easiest thing you can do, upgrading the caps is probably the next easiest thing you can do, but let's step back and put things in order of importance.

Driver status:

The woofers. Are they still 2235H woofers with original cones and mass rings? Have they they had new surrounds put on them or aftermarket kits?

The 2202H, these are very likely fine, as long as there is no sign of visible damage. These speakers have long lasting cloth surrounds and long lasting ferrite magnets.

The 2441 drivers. Likely 50/50 that they will need a rebuild. Original diaphragms are hard to come by, there are the Truextent diagrams at a premium cost and performance change.

The 2405H drivers. Likely damaged or out of spec. Impossible to repair at present. The only solution is to look for suitable replacements with verified performance.

The Networks:

Best option is to pull the originals and keep for collectors value.
Replace with charge coupled networks.

Clean/replace the L-Pads.
Clean/replace the input terminals.

Now you can consider replacing the wire... in my opinion any quality wire will be an upgrade and of little consequence.

How to hook them up:

After all that, you will need an active or line level passive crossover. The JBLs of the era will not likely be at a performance level commensurate with your existing electronics. The JBLs are also balanced with required pro audio drive levels... you will probably get hum and be disappointed. Bryston, Marchand, Pass Labs/First Watt are all top flight crossovers. You will need one that is adjustable or order it per JBL specs.

Now you can think of your amplifiers. Oh yeah, that... both the LP and HP sections of this speaker are 96dB or higher at 1 watt/m. If you do not plan on playing higher than 96dB which is quite possible, you can get away with very few watts. That said, you do need to be able to control the back EMF of the woofers so amps with higher damping factors are better suited.


Widget

Mr Widget, may I ask a question for educational, and knowledge's sake about the mention of Charge Coupled Crossovers, and let's say for these types of 4300 Series Speakers, which appeared to use a myriad of electronics, inboard and outboard.

In simplified layman's terms, and let's say for this particular 4355 Speaker, is this type of network a simple "plug and play" replacement for the original goodies, meaning that once you make all connections to Drivers and L-Pads, would this speaker then be like say a simpler L-100/L-200/L-300 Speaker, you now have two Binding Posts at the rear, plug in an Amp of choice, and play away?

Or no? That the CC network merely replaces the 3155 Network, and one still needs an outboard unit for the low frequency drivers?

The 4355 is actually what, a 4-way system, correct?

If the answer to my questions are no, are there other options? Couldn't a simpler 4-Way Crossover be built? Wouldn't such be known as to what values of inductors-caps ect would be needed?

Maybe I know not of what I speak, but isn't this particular speaker's bass drivers wired in such a unique way that only 4 ohms is present? What if they weren't?


Hope you haven't minded these questions.

[Mr. Widget]

Woofers are 2225H rec-coned by someone who knows what he's doing with the correct kits to 2235H.
All drivers are said to be working properly. Will check them at next opportunity.Good luck, it is just that with any 30 year old plus gear, in my experience even when presented as mint or "properly working" it is rarely up to original spec without having a true expert getting "under the hood" and replacing or adjusting bits and bobs.


Regarding the crossover, my preamp does have a balanced output. In your opinion can I get away with something like the current production JBL/Harmon 223XS or 234S? They are 24dB L/R.My preamp is also one with balanced outs... I still sometimes have hum issues with pro gear.

I would suggest buying a cheap JBL or other pro active crossover and get the speakers running. Any active crossover that will let you set ~290 Hz at 12dB, 18dB or 24dB/octave will get you started. You can and will likely upgrade later if you keep the speakers.

Lastly, I posted the detailed driver list etc. post earlier to put things into perspective as you were asking about wiring etc. If they were my speakers, I'd go down the checklist in that order and then look at the "upgrades". Also, realize these speakers were virtually never deployed where the rack didn't also include 1/3 octave or parametric EQ which were used to balance the speakers in the purpose built mixing/monitoring suite.

After you get them up and running, like most of us here, you will likely appreciate their dynamics and find them very satisfying at first, I'll be curious about your feelings about them after an extended period. If you are fortunate enough to get a really good set, they will bring hours of fun, probably a bit of frustration, and then you will need to decide if they are worthy of the real estate that they take up.

Please keep us posted on your journey.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

Mr Widget, may I ask a question for educational, and knowledge's sake about the mention of Charge Coupled Crossovers, and let's say for these types of 4300 Series Speakers, which appeared to use a myriad of electronics, inboard and outboard.

In simplified layman's terms, and let's say for this particular 4355 Speaker, is this type of network a simple "plug and play" replacement for the original goodies, meaning that once you make all connections to Drivers and L-Pads, would this speaker then be like say a simpler L-100/L-200/L-300 Speaker, you now have two Binding Posts at the rear, plug in an Amp of choice, and play away?

Or no? That the CC network merely replaces the 3155 Network, and one still needs an outboard unit for the low frequency drivers?

The 4355 is actually what, a 4-way system, correct?

If the answer to my questions are no, are there other options? Couldn't a simpler 4-Way Crossover be built? Wouldn't such be known as to what values of inductors-caps ect would be needed?
Or no.

First to be educational to those who haven't been carefully reading this and other audio forums for the past couple of decades. Let me back up; an 8 ohm 1200Hz crossover is not an 8 ohm 1200Hz crossover. In all high quality speakers built today, you have filters, padding, response tweaking, and impedance massaging components that are specific to the drivers, the cabinets, and even the physical layout of the drivers on the baffle.

A CC or charge coupled network is simply a network where you use twice the capacitors and insert a DC voltage between them. (It is a little more complicated than that, but not much) This is a design topology that was created by Ed Meitner and used to good effect by Greg Timbers on a number of his designs.

Regarding the 4355 and it's 3155 network, it was no accident that JBL did not include a passive filter between the dual 2235Hs and the 2202H in these speakers. The components to do this are very large and costly and will not work as well as using an external active filter. Yes, the 4355 is a four way as JBL plainly describes it, and yes it is a 4 way with a three way passive network and dual sets of inputs for bi-amplification. In the 4330 and 4332 speakers they left out the woofer to mid filters and included dual sets of binding posts for bi-amplification, and in the 4345 and others they had a switch to allow for bi-amplification. In the JBL Everest 2 speakers they were all designed with bi-amplification as an option and for these speakers you remove a jumper which deletes the filter between the dual woofers and the HF section. If possible multi-amplification is often desirable though it requires a fair amount of user involvement to get it right.

I hope I have satisfactorily answered your questions... to me it feels as though we have flogged this one thoroughly to death. Maybe its helpful?


Widget

[markd51]

I should of perhaps further asked, that a Charged Coupled Crossover is basically a more sophisticated type of a "Passive Crossover"? Correct? It looks like Kenrick has gone down such paths.

[speakerdave]

Woofers are 2225H rec-coned by someone who knows what he's doing with the correct kits to 2235H.
All drivers are said to be working properly. Will check them at next opportunity.
Regarding the crossover, my preamp does have a balanced output. In your opinion can I get away with something like the current production JBL/Harmon 223XS or 234S? They are 24dB L/R.

Are the 4355's in question reproductions?

[markd51]

Or no.

First to be educational to those who haven't been carefully reading this and other audio forums for the past couple of decades. Let me back up; an 8 ohm 1200Hz crossover is not an 8 ohm 1200Hz crossover. In all high quality speakers built today, you have filters, padding, response tweaking, and impedance massaging components that are specific to the drivers, the cabinets, and even the physical layout of the drivers on the baffle.

A CC or charge coupled network is simply a network where you use twice the capacitors and insert a DC voltage between them. (It is a little more complicated than that, but not much) This is a design topology that was created by Ed Meitner and used to good effect by Greg Timbers on a number of his designs.

Regarding the 4355 and it's 3155 network, it was no accident that JBL did not include a passive filter between the dual 2235Hs and the 2202H in these speakers. The components to do this are very large and costly and will not work as well as using an external active filter. Yes, the 4355 is a four way as JBL plainly describes it, and yes it is a 4 way with a three way passive network and dual sets of inputs for bi-amplification. In the 4330 and 4332 speakers they left out the woofer to mid filters and included dual sets of binding posts for bi-amplification, and in the 4345 and others they had a switch to allow for bi-amplification. In the JBL Everest 2 speakers they were all designed with bi-amplification as an option and for these speakers you remove a jumper which deletes the filter between the dual woofers and the HF section. If possible multi-amplification is often desirable though it requires a fair amount of user involvement to get it right.

I hope I have satisfactorily answered your questions... to me it feels as though we have flogged this one thoroughly to death. Maybe its helpful?


Widget

Thank you,
Some of my questions that I pose are just hypothetical ones and as if I am somehow placing myself in the original poster's shoes by asking a number of my questions in hopes he also benefits and gains knowledge.

Somewhere along the line in a youtube vid recently, I seen custom made passive crossovers for either the 4355, or 4350, might've been by Kenrick in Japan.

Very possibly all they are though, is some form of cloning of the requisite and factory 3155 Dividing network?

I understand, and I'm fully on board that if they were mine, I'd surely wish to do the right things, and not hack such a special pair of speakers with some unorthodox makeshift components in hopes of getting proper joy from them.

[markustubesnow]

Sorry for the 90 degree tilt. First picture I've uploaded here, and I obviously don't know what I'm doing.
89032
Are the 4355's in question reproductions?

[markustubesnow]

Yes, I know the room is a mess. It's a working writing studio.
See if I can get these photos to load properly.8903589036

[speakerdave]

Fabulous workspace.:yes:

[speakerdave]

I really understand the logic of your choices. You have cozy-up speakers and include-everybody speakers. When you get the the 4355's set up with some amps you'll have blast-off speakers whenever needed.:)

For my 4345's I used JBL/UREI 6260 for the woofers and Audio Research VT60 for the midrange/treble (with TAD beryllium, but that's another story). With two 2235's each side, 300 watts into a four-ohm load would be handy for the occasional countdown and not very hard to find; Bryston is good. I believe I still have a JBL/UREI 5234A here somewhere, with handloaded cards for the 4345/4355. Not the last word in sound quality, but it will get you going. If you'd like to borrow it, PM me.

[markustubesnow]

But I am pulling the plug.

Why? What was it someone said? "Biting off more than I can chew...?" Yes, I think that's where I was headed.

Frankly, my spirit is feeling much more at peace with this decision than the anxious feelings I was having when I was anticipating everything involved. Your counsel has helped me feel confident making this decision.

For those who are interested, here are some considerations:
1. The speakers are very big. Just getting them fitted into my music room was going to be a hassle.
2. The cost and expense of the speakers is only the first step of several steps. I'd be looking at many more dollars to get them up and running correctly with decent crossovers and amps.
3. There's always the question of the condition of the drivers. A potential headache I really don't have the to appetite to address. The unknowns make what should be quite a bit of fun a bit too stressful.
4. Many of you asked keen questions that reflect your greater experience and understanding. Very helpful for me to see the bigger picture.
5. My wife. Yeah, she'd put up with it. But the prospect wasn't exactly contributing to the harmony in the household.
6. The fact of the matter is I'm actually very content with my existing equipment and two "opposite" systems. I'm sure the 4355s would be better than what I have but to get there it's quite a climb.

Thanks, all, for your generous sharing of wisdom, perspective and insights. Frankly, I feel like I've avoided a potentially costly (in money, time and energy) journey.

[Riley Casey]

Discretion, valor, etc.

If the room pictured is where you intended you use the 4355s this is a good choice. These monitors were intended for use in large studio control rooms where the listening distance was usually 15 ft minimum from the listening area behind the console and the speakers in their soffits. These were never meant to be listened to in the near field with so many drivers needing to combine their outputs in the voice range. The size and component choices were specifically for listening at high SPLs in a fairly large space and your room just doesn't look like that.


But I am pulling the plug.

...

Thanks, all, for your generous sharing of wisdom, perspective and insights. Frankly, I feel like I've avoided a potentially costly (in money, time and energy) journey.

[markd51]

Well, we tried.
One question you never clearly answered, perhaps doesn't make much difference in some ways, but does in some other ways.

Are those Cabinets original JBL, or repros?

That's OK if you want to pull the plug, and no harm, foul, or bad feelings, at least not by me, and with trying to help in what ways that I could.

In life, we've all had to pull some "plugs", bit off more than we could chew, that Time share in Sannibel Island, that nice Ranger Bass Boat, that Motor Home, that House, that Amplifier, that Shotgun, that Turntable, on and on.

Don't forget that in the interest-prospect of throwing in the towel on such a project, and that you've chosen another direction, there might be 3 dozen other members here chomping at the bit to take up such a project, and have your problems to sort through.

There's no doubt members here that eat such problems like a kid eats candy. And I say that with my highest respect of them.

Thus, do seriously consider offering your Speakers to members here first, before you select other avenues.
You'll most likely come out of this fully healed, and get a clearer picture of where you might like to head down the road?

Who knows, maybe a pair of Tannoys, Martin Logans, Magnepans, KEF, B&W, etc are in your future, something else for you will be a better personal fit, and that it is something that doesn't quite interrupt your lifestyle, and harmony.

Best of luck!

[markustubesnow]

Well, we tried.
...

Are those Cabinets original JBL, or repros? - Thought I answered this with the photos on this thread. They're originals, not repros.

...
Don't forget that in the interest-prospect of throwing in the towel on such a project, and that you've chosen another direction, there might be 3 dozen other members here chomping at the bit to take up such a project, and have your problems to sort through. The seller already has at least two other buyers lined up, chomping at the bit. One of them offered him $13K for the speakers, if he had them re-veneered (which he was doing for me). That's significantly more than the price we'd agreed on. I didn't feel it was right for me to buy them just to flip them. Could have done it and others would do it gladly, but that's not me.

Thus, do seriously consider offering your Speakers to members here first, before you select other avenues. I'll be happily content with my 4430s. But this forum is a great resource. Good to see the Marketplace section here.

Best of luck!

Thanks and thanks for your help.

[markd51]

Thanks and thanks for your help.

It is good to hear that you're now not in a situation of having bought them, and now have to sell them.

The 4430, which I have, is no slouch as far as a quite authorative Monitor IMO. Depends what it's driven with. No, it's not going to produce the last bit of crystalline highs that a 2405 can deliver, but I don't seem to notice anything missing. I'm 66, and of course don't have Bat-like hearing at my age, so there is that.

The 4430 is fairly efficient, I suppose one could live happily ever after with a nice 40-70 watt Amp. Quality can trump quantity, and the 4430 can benefit and give up the goods gloriously with good amplification.

Sure, more quality power on tap is not a bad thing. My pair of Bryston Monoblocks according to Bryston's factory bench tests put out 676/674 watts into an 8 ohm load. They just cruise merrily along without a hint of any strain or sweat and at say a guess of an actual 25-40 watts of power are really strutting their stuff. Quite dynamic, mids and highs come across very clean and neutral.

Bass is authoriative, clean, tight, defined, there's no descriptions such as "flabby" sound. The 4430 might likely image better than many of the 4300 series speakers. I felt very fortunate to acquire my pair.

The biggest benefit is speaker placement, a room that has good acoustics and is set up for a sound system to deliver the goods. That's often the hardest because some just don't have the living space, and clutter in such a room can be a detriment.

Again, best of luck, and have fun!