What Do I Have?? Need Help With Connections.

[gmarascortt]

Hello...
About a year ago, I answered a CL ad for a Pioneer SX-580 for $30 that I needed for parts. As I was leaving, he asked me if I wanted a Sansui cassette deck. How much? I asked. He said "free". I said I would love to have it. Then it dawned on me to ask if he had any speakers. He said, "you should of come earlier today, I took about 8 pairs to the dump....but I do have a set still in the garage, they were just too heavy to load by myself." To the dump? As we walked into the garage, I saw the back of them from 20 feet away, clearly (2) vintage JBL crossovers in both cabinets. Excitement....then confusion. The large cabinets were nothing I recognized as JBL. They were some kind of custom cabinets. As I went around to check out the front, I spotted some 077 slot/prism tweeters, and holes where drivers once resided(15" hole, and a 4" hole). I didn't want to get too excited, but I asked what happened to the drivers. "Oh...I have the bass speakers in the house....but they are in rough shape." As he went in to get them, the wife comes out with the horns holding them on her shoulders like they were dumb-bells! I could not believe it! In my head, I quickly add up the worth.....$2,000-3,000. I'm thinking he is going to say at least $1,000. Before I ask, he tells me that all the equipment was his fathers who passed a few years prior. The father was a NASA engineer and quite the audiophile. He constructed the cabinets about 10 years prior to his passing and enjoyed the "custom" JBL's daily! The son was not much into music. "How much for the speakers?" I asked. "Well, considering I was just going to throw them out......could you possibly pay $100?? Of course I did not hesitate. Also included were a pair of LE5-2 drivers, LE20 drivers, and NOS LX2 crossovers! And BTW, he said most of the speakers he hauled to the dump were JBL's!:crying:

Here are my components:
15" LE15A woofers, 8 ohms, recently re-coned and restored @ The Speaker Exchange, Tampa, Fl
LE85 mid-horn drivers, wax seals intact, 8 ohms
H91 horns
L91 lenses
077 slot/prism tweeters, blue diaphragms, 8 ohms
LX5 crossover
N8000 crossover
Cabinet dimensions are approximately 45"high x 20"wide x 19"deep

Q #1: What do I really have at the end of the day? What can I compare them to? C50 S8?? 4333??
Q #2: How do I internally connect all of this? Currently, a speaker cable would connect to an independent spring terminal cup with 2 fuses and not the spring loaded terminals on the LX5 crossovers. I want to install a new jack plate and use binding posts for use with banana plugs. I also want to eliminate the fuses. The confusing part is rewiring and bi-passing the fuses. I can't figure out how to do this. Can someone do a simple diagram of the wiring based on my components? Or point me to a link that might have similar schematics.

Thank you in advance! Geno

[gmarascortt]

More pictures.....

[Mr. Widget]

First of all, you were correct. $100 was a steal.


Q #1: What do I really have at the end of the day? What can I compare them to? C50 S8?? 4333??None of the above. You have an old man's dream system.

If the woofers were original, you would have an S7 system with added slots.


Q #2: How do I internally connect all of this? I would sell the woofers as is, sell the four JBL crossovers, buy a pair of JBL 2216Nd woofers and get someone to help you build new crossovers... then you would really have something.

If that doesn't work for you here are images from a JBL crossover guide. The model numbers shown are the pro model numbers and are also for newer versions, but if you follow the illustration on the last page, you will have the correct connections.

Lastly, we don't know what your woofers' parameters are now that they have been reconed with aftermarket kits, but rest assured your 077s and LE85s are not exactly 8 ohms or 16 ohms, but rather somewhere in-between. Depending on the years produced, the foilcal labels were either printed 16 ohms or 8 ohms, but the actual drivers are all the same. Since yours are printed as 8 ohms that dates them to the '70s and since they were likely pampered by their last owner, they should be in very good shape.


Widget

[macaroonie]

'I would sell the woofers as is, sell the four JBL crossovers, buy a pair of JBL 2216Nd woofers and get someone to help you build new crossovers... then you would really have something.'

Broadly speaking I would agree with this this pathway. The old crossovers were not that sophisticated and are now old so the caps ccould well be suspect.

As an alternative I would consider going analogue / active.
What that means is you have an electronic crossover that then gives you bass / mid / top as line level outputs. you then have to have power amps to drive the respective driver units.
This need not be as complicated or messy as it sounds , for example there are loads of good 4 channel amps , QSC , Crown , .
Compared to the good old days amp power is inexpensive.

[gmarascortt]

'I would sell the woofers as is, sell the four JBL crossovers, buy a pair of JBL 2216Nd woofers and get someone to help you build new crossovers... then you would really have something.'

Broadly speaking I would agree with this this pathway. The old crossovers were not that sophisticated and are now old so the caps ccould well be suspect.

As an alternative I would consider going analogue / active.
What that means is you have an electronic crossover that then gives you bass / mid / top as line level outputs. you then have to have power amps to drive the respective driver units.
This need not be as complicated or messy as it sounds , for example there are loads of good 4 channel amps , QSC , Crown , .
Compared to the good old days amp power is inexpensive.

Thank you for the advice!

[gmarascortt]

First of all, you were correct. $100 was a steal.

None of the above. You have an old man's dream system.

If the woofers were original, you would have an S7 system with added slots.

I would sell the woofers as is, sell the four JBL crossovers, buy a pair of JBL 2216Nd woofers and get someone to help you build new crossovers... then you would really have something.

If that doesn't work for you here are images from a JBL crossover guide. The model numbers shown are the pro model numbers and are also for newer versions, but if you follow the illustration on the last page, you will have the correct connections.

Lastly, we don't know what your woofers' parameters are now that they have been reconed with aftermarket kits, but rest assured your 077s and LE85s are not exactly 8 ohms or 16 ohms, but rather somewhere in-between. Depending on the years produced, the foilcal labels were either printed 16 ohms or 8 ohms, but the actual drivers are all the same. Since yours are printed as 8 ohms that dates them to the '70s and since they were likely pampered by their last owner, they should be in very good shape.


Widget
Widget, thank you very much for the advice and information!
FYI...the LE15A's were re-coned using JBL C8R2235 kits. The previous owner was a NASA electronics engineer and was very meticulous. The 3-car garage was completely filled with electronic testing and analyzing equipment. I would not be surprised if he replaced and tested everything! After I get them operating properly, I will audition and get back with you.

[gmarascortt]

First of all, you were correct. $100 was a steal.

None of the above. You have an old man's dream system.

If the woofers were original, you would have an S7 system with added slots.

I would sell the woofers as is, sell the four JBL crossovers, buy a pair of JBL 2216Nd woofers and get someone to help you build new crossovers... then you would really have something.

If that doesn't work for you here are images from a JBL crossover guide. The model numbers shown are the pro model numbers and are also for newer versions, but if you follow the illustration on the last page, you will have the correct connections.

Lastly, we don't know what your woofers' parameters are now that they have been reconed with aftermarket kits, but rest assured your 077s and LE85s are not exactly 8 ohms or 16 ohms, but rather somewhere in-between. Depending on the years produced, the foilcal labels were either printed 16 ohms or 8 ohms, but the actual drivers are all the same. Since yours are printed as 8 ohms that dates them to the '70s and since they were likely pampered by their last owner, they should be in very good shape.


Widget

Any suggestions or recommendations of who could build the correct crossovers for me if I went with the 2216ND-1's?

[macaroonie]

Ah , you are on the right track now. The 2235H was the go to driver back in them days , and it is indeed a fine unit but not without its shortcomings. Specifically it has a 30g mass ' control ' ring added inside the top of the coil former. While this aids extension at the low end of the spectrum it seriously ( IMO ) compromises the sound quality at the upper end as it approaches handover to the horn. I know this as I have 2235's in a home brew similar to what you are seeking to implement' I knew what was going on with the 2235 and built the system with a 2" exit JBL horn 2380. this is spec'd as a 500Hz throat but that is a little optimistic . I run active so changing X/O frequency is just turning a knob . Anyway I settled eventually at a smidge above 600Hz.
At that frequency the darkness caused by the 2235 has gone away and I have a clean and airy midrange.
You are limited by the LE85 combo so addressing that widgets suggestion of flipping the 2235's and getting 2216 is sound thinking indeed.
The 2216 will play happily up to and beyond the hand over frequency.
Bass extension is not compromised , I believe the response is very similar to the 2235 at the bottom end.

Re passive networks. There are a few guys on your side of the pond that will put someting nice together.
I would begin by looking at the Nelson Pass version of the L300 network.
I will warn you that once you start on Solen caps and so on it can get pretty spendy.

Good luck with your project. M

[Mr. Widget]

FYI...the LE15A's were re-coned using JBL C8R2235 kits.This is most unfortunate and very condemning of the reconer. Anyone able to order JBL kits should know better than to install an overhung voicecoil woofer kit in an underhung woofer frame.

The 2235H cone kit is absolutely incompatible with the LE15A. They will play, but applying any level of power that will achieve “realistic” output will result in mechanical interference and high distortion.

It is also a real shame as these kits are getting harder and harder to get. There are around 10 different JBL woofer frames that are 100% compatible with the 2235H kits, but unfortunately the LE15A is not one of them.


Widget

[gmarascortt]

This is most unfortunate and very condemning of the reconer. Anyone able to order JBL kits should know better than to install an overhung voicecoil woofer kit in an underhung woofer frame.

The 2235H cone kit is absolutely incompatible with the LE15A. They will play, but applying any level of power that will achieve “realistic” output will result in mechanical interference and high distortion.

It is also a real shame as these kits are getting harder and harder to get. There are around 10 different JBL woofer frames that are 100% compatible with the 2235H kits, but unfortunately the LE15A is not one of them.


Widget

:eek: What? They assured me that the 2235H was the correct JBL replacement kit! Should I contact them....take them back?
I think they were suppose to use 2215 kits!

[Mr. Widget]

:eek: What? They assured me that the 2235H was the correct JBL replacement! Should I contact them....take them back?
I think they were suppose to use 2215 kits!I would definitely be upset and demand my money back. The Speaker Exchange is one of the larger distributors of JBL raw speaker parts, but based on your experience, I would be very leery of having them work on my speakers.

Proper JBL C16R2215 kits (the correct LE15A kits) have been unavailable for many years, but that doesn't mean that you can't find them as NOS somewhere. The Speaker Exchange has aftermarket kits, but I doubt they are perfect.

I would demand a full refund and have them apply the money spent towards the 2216Nd woofers.


Widget

[gmarascortt]

This is most unfortunate and very condemning of the reconer. Anyone able to order JBL kits should know better than to install an overhung voicecoil woofer kit in an underhung woofer frame.

The 2235H cone kit is absolutely incompatible with the LE15A. They will play, but applying any level of power that will achieve “realistic” output will result in mechanical interference and high distortion.

It is also a real shame as these kits are getting harder and harder to get. There are around 10 different JBL woofer frames that are 100% compatible with the 2235H kits, but unfortunately the LE15A is not one of them.


Widget

Would any of the sound and electronics engineers like to give their professional opinions and advise on this matter??
I need as much information/proof that my LE15A's were re-coned and restored with incorrect JBL rebuild kits.
Thank you very much.....I really appreciate your help!
Geno

[Riley Casey]

What you want is an old copy of JBL's "goes into" list. This was a list of cone kits that would fit and work properly in what frames with notes on changes or mods required to accomplish the substitution properly. It was published for years by JBL for distribution to authorized recone shops. The last version I have is dated 2015 and makes no mention of the LE15A. The closest that list comes is listing a C8RLE15B as the replacement for the 2216 driver. I long ago lost the original paper copy I received at recone school back in 1979 which might have listed that driver but what the 2015 list does include is the drivers that the C8R2235 cone kit will work in correctly and that is these drivers: 2230A, 2231A, 2231H, 2234H, 2235H. Anything else is off the books according to JBL.


Would any of the sound and electronics engineers like to give their professional opinions and advise on this matter??
I need as much information/proof that my LE15A's were re-coned and restored with incorrect JBL rebuild kits.
Thank you very much.....I really appreciate your help!
Geno

[Robh3606]

The Alnico LE-15 are unique and needs the proper kit.

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

:eek: What? They assured me that the 2235H was the correct JBL replacement kit! Should I contact them....take them back?
I think they were suppose to use 2215 kits!Are you certain they used 2235H kits? The VC for the 2235H is 3/4" high. The VC for the LE15A is closer to 1/4". I would think that even an amateur would realize there was a mismatch.

I would think the greatest likelihood would be that they sold you aftermarket brand X something or other and told you that it was original JBL.


Widget

[gmarascortt]

Are you certain they used 2235H kits? The VC for the 2235H is 3/4" high. The VC for the LE15A is closer to 1/4". I would think that even an amateur would realize there was a mismatch.

I would think the greatest likelihood would be that they sold you aftermarket brand X something or other and told you that it was original JBL.


Widget

On the back of 1 cone, written in white(paint or chalk) is "C8T2235 39V TO-B 660". The other has "C8T2235 39V TO-B 699". Is this applied by the tech doing the work? Or is it a description put on at JBL factory?
There is also a generic sticker on 1 that reads: P0273-24530. The other: P0273-24526. Do these #'s mean anything to you? Maybe a cross-reference number for aftermarket?
Also, "C8T2235 JBL 2235, 2231, 136A, 15" recone kit" is on my receipt.

[Mr. Widget]

I have no idea what the different cone markings mean. It does seem logical that the numbers on yours imply factory or aftermarket 2235 cones though.

Read the thread below. It covers overhung vs. underhung woofers. It is primarily about two other woofers, but it does cover the topic here as well.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?31803-The-difference-in-2220-amp-2225-Voice-coils


Widget

[Riley Casey]

The Sisyphean task of sorting thru the debris field that was my warehouse continues and in the process I turned up my 1985 JBL recone documents binder from my days of trying out my high school Spanish and getting pounding headaches from the solvents with the ladies on the recone line in Northridge. The correct recone kit for the LE15A is called out as the C16R2215. There does not appear to be any cross reference to another cone for the LE15A on the 'goes into list' so that is the only cone specified to fit that driver. "C8T2235 39V TO-B 660" is not the sort of marking I've ever seen on any JBL factory kit. I suspect you have aftermarket cones.

[gmarascortt]

I visited The Speaker Exchange on Monday and spoke with the owner, Glenn Satin, at length. He seemed very perplexed after I explained everything to him. He asked me if I "listened to them"....I said "no". He then said, "how do you know they don't work?" "I don't". He really did not have a lot of answers.
I asked him if he could test them to prove they work properly. We went in the back and he did some kind of test(sine wave?) for the movement of the cone, but not actual sound. The cone was really moving in and out and seemed to be working very smoothly. He said they were well within the factory specs. With no rubbing.
I then flat out asked him if they actually used aftermarket kits and then labeled them with JBL 2235H info. He said, "absolutely not!" He then proceeded to go in the storage room and brought out a brand new and sealed 2235H kit. He opened it in front of me and we compared it to my re-coned LE15A. Everything matched EXACTLY, including all of the hand written information from the factory on the back of the cone.....everything elso matched exactly! Glenn then guaranteed that these will work properly, claiming that over the last 25 years, he has used the 2235H kits in the LE15A drivers many hundreds of times........including about 20 pairs per year to Kendrick Sound in Japan. He carries these kits just for Kendrick Sound knowing they will use them in the LE15A rebuilds!

Where do I stand now?
(1)He offered to rebuild them using aftermarket kits, and refund the difference. He was adamant that I would not be happy with the sound or the longevity of the cone.
(2)He asked if I could go home and listen to them, and if I wasn't 100% impressed, he would refund the total amount.

So today I will rewire and connect everything for audition. I will let you guys know how they sound!

[Mr. Widget]

That is very disheartening to hear.

Well, I guess it is good news that he has C8R2235H kits, but it is too bad he wasted two more of them on your LE15As. Did you ask him about overhung and underhung voice coils? There is no way in hell a 3/4” high coil will work properly in a LE15A.

Think of it as changing the piston rods of an engine. An engine needs to have the correct piston rods for the best performance, you can get the engine to run with the wrong rods, but it won’t perform as it was designed.


Widget

[gmarascortt]

Did you ask him about overhung and underhung voice coils? There is no way in hell a 3/4” high coil will work properly in a LE15




I sure did!

I gave him information that I received from Ken Haerr @ Upland Speaker Service: "The LE15A top plate thickness/gap depth is .600", and an underhung voice coil topology. Short coil in a deep gap. The 2235H is .280", overhung design, long coil in a short gap. Basically what is happening with your now incorrect speaker is the voice coil partially immersed in the gap with assymetrical movement" .

I really caught him off guard and he had no explanation........except "they will work" and "they are within factory specs".

[Mr. Widget]

I really caught him off guard and he had no explanation........except "they will work" and "they are within factory specs".They will work, as in make sounds, but he is a liar or a fool if he is claiming that they are within spec. They cannot possibly be within spec.

I have no problem recommending that people buy parts from this firm, but absolutely no one should allow them to work on their drivers.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

Could he be confusing the 136A (The woofer from the later L200 and L300 speaker systems) for the LE15A? The 136A should be reconed with the 2235H kit.


Widget

[RMC]

My two cents.

You have every reason to be pissed off.

However now that its done you need to look forward, and address the problem in a practical and economical way in order to salvage the drivers.

Since "He offered to rebuild them using aftermarket kits, and refund the difference." i'd be tempted to go this way.

Seems a correct aftermarket recone should be better than a wrong one and better than none, a lesser of two evils. This should give you a working woofer, maybe not ideal but i assume acceptable.

If the installation work they did is good (other than wrong recone) they may well do a proper installation job of the aftermarket kit too.

Going elsewhere to get the job redone would mean paying twice for the same work, a pain in the wallet. And with his offer you'd get some money back, helping you put this sad event behind you, i.e. moving on.

At least next time you'll know what to do regarding Speaker Exchange...

P.S. RE "including about 20 pairs per year to Kendrick Sound in Japan. He carries these kits just for Kendrick Sound knowing they will use them in the LE15A rebuilds!" That raises a similar issue/question about their own rebuilds...

[BMWCCA]

I find it very hard to believe that Kenrick doesn't do their own re-coning at this point.
But then I assume they're still using Rick in USA for their reproduction cabinets, too, so . . . :dont-know:

[speakerdave]

Could he be confusing the 136A (The woofer from the later L200 and L300 speaker systems) for the LE15A? The 136A should be reconed with the 2235H kit.


Widget

Good point. I don't see Kenrick rebuilding a lot of LE15A-based systems.

[RMC]

Spent some time searching in the deep JBL stuff, trying to make sense of the non-sense, that is find some explanation or connection between LE15A and 2235 recone kit.

If what i found is in fact the (unconfirmed) explanation for putting the wrong cone kit on LE15A, then it would be a gross misinterpretation of the info by the Exchage and/or Kenrick Sound.

The only possible connection i could see is the following, not that far fetched in my view.

I think someone might have used the Transducer replacement list in order to find an "equivalent" driver thinking that its cone kit could be used in absence of a genuine LE15A kit. The transducer list shown here makes me believe this.

Acoustic equivalent shown (a fast/tempting solution) is 2234, so a 2235 without mass ring as i recall. Don't need to juggle at length with the 2235 recone kit idea, its perceived as a legit quick fix. More so when note # 3 says "Last resort", your back is to the wall, the only JBL you can put on (they think).

Not trying to justify or defend what was done, but rather simply say where it SEEMS the gaffe may come from.

Fit the kit on it and that's it! Basically, what you appear to have on your drivers would be a "Kenrick Special"

88542

[Mr. Widget]

Yes, if you have a missing or completely trashed LE15A, a 2234H would be the best replacement woofer. However as I believe you understand and are saying, using a 2234/5H kit (C8R2235H) to repair a blown LE15A is not even suitable as a last resort.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

“DESCRIPTION
Brand New Genuine JBL C8R2235 Recone Kit to repair the 2231A, 2231H, 2234H, 2235H & 136A speakers. One piece pre-assembled Recone Kit includes: 4″ flat wound voice coil, ribbed cone with foam surround, spider, tinsel leads, gaskets, glue, mass ring included, centering shim and dustcap. 2234H used in 4435 monitor. 2235H used in JBL 136H, L45A, L45B, L71, L300A, B380.”


The quote above is from The Speaker Exchange’s website. It correctly does not mention the LE15A. This whole LE15A/2235H snafu just doesn’t make sense.


Widget

[RMC]

Agreed. But THEY (Exchange/Kenrick) seem to believe that it is a valid kit!!! I was only trying to show where the gaffe may come from, no more.

BTW LHF VERY slow today, some IT attacks or something? Or too many lonely folks on the Web...

[Mr. Widget]

Agreed. But THEY (Exchange/Kenrick) seem to believe that it is a valid kit!!! I was only trying to show where the gaffe may come from, no more.

BTW LHF VERY slow today, some IT attacks or something? Or too many lonely folks on the Web...Yes, I have noticed that the site is just crawling today… Really painful!

I don’t buy it that Kenrick sound is using a lot of LE15As. I believe they mostly offer 43XX type systems and restorations. That LE15A info doesn’t add up.


Widget

[gmarascortt]

“DESCRIPTION


Brand New Genuine JBL C8R2235 Recone Kit to repair the 2231A, 2231H, 2234H, 2235H & 136A speakers. One piece pre-assembled Recone Kit includes: 4″ flat wound voice coil, ribbed cone with foam surround, spider, tinsel leads, gaskets, glue, mass ring included, centering shim and dustcap. 2234H used in 4435 monitor. 2235H used in JBL 136H, L45A, L45B, L71, L300A, B380.”


The quote above is from The Speaker Exchange’s website. It correctly does not mention the LE15A. This whole LE15A/2235H snafu just doesn’t make sense.


Widget
I did bring this to the attention of the owner and his reply was: "we can't possibly list every conceivable option for every single kit"

[Mr. Widget]

I did bring this to the attention of the owner and his reply was: "we can't possibly list every conceivable option for every single kit"Yeah, like trimming the kit down, changing out the surround and sticking it in a LE14A? Whoever wrote the website is following the correct guidelines and making factual statements. The person you are talking to is not someone who I would ever consider doing business with.


Widget

[gmarascortt]

UPDATE: A disappointing setback!
I finally connected all the drivers and crossovers to audition the low frequency LE15A drivers. They were pushed with my Crown Macro Reference and a decent set of cables. One had a little more output than the other...but both sounded OK, but a little muddy. Not a true test, because unfortunately, I discovered other issues. Both my 077 diaphragms are smoked as well as one of my LE85's. I am able to purchase NOS JBL diaphragms for the LE85's. The 077's are another story.......a NOS pair on e-Bay for about $500 is more than I can afford right now! Can anyone recommend a decent and less expensive alternative until I strike oil?

Has anybody used the Jansen/Zomax 2404-T diaphragms in their 077, 076, 075, 2404, 2405 etc.... ??
Here is a link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jansen-8-Ohm-Replacement-Diaphragm-for-JBL-2404-P-N-2404T/362257482856?hash=item54583a8468:g:qFYAAOSwaphamXv J

Although they are more than likely made in China or Taiwan, they look much different than the typical cheap Chinese aftermarket ones. From the pictures, they look like they are better constructed.

[gmarascortt]

88697

[Mr. Widget]

It looks nice, tell us more.


Widget

[gmarascortt]

It looks nice, tell us more.


Widget


Thanks Widget! Please see original post.

[macaroonie]

How are they sounding now ? All good ?

[gmarascortt]

How are they sounding now ? All good ?

No....still multiple issues. I will take apart this weekend to assess.
Without taking the original rivets out of the "covers" on the LX5 and N8000 crossovers, do either of these have the dreaded wax fill??

[hjames]

No....still multiple issues. I will take apart this weekend to assess.
Without taking the original rivets out of the "covers" on the LX5 and N8000 crossovers, do either of these have the dreaded wax fill??
I had a pair with a tanish fill - seemed to be beeswax. I took a little used saucepan, put some water in, brought the water to a boil, pulled off the heat, then set the crossovers in the hot water for maybe 3-4 mins. That should melt the wax - take a clean spare can and pour the wax into that (save it). Repeat if it didn't all melt the first time.

Honestly, the Wax fill is EASY to deal with - some used a potting compound in some crossover units and it doesn't melt!

[gmarascortt]

I had a pair with a tanish fill - seemed to be beeswax. I took a little used saucepan, put some water in, brought the water to a boil, pulled off the heat, then set the crossovers in the hot water for maybe 3-4 mins. That should melt the wax - take a clean spare can and pour the wax into that (save it). Repeat if it didn't all melt the first time.

Honestly, the Wax fill is EASY to deal with - some used a potting compound in some crossover units and it doesn't melt!

Heather....thanks for the advice and encouragement!