Is there a better driver than the 2416 for the 2342 horn?

[newbie]

Guys, I cannot find specs for the JBL 2416 anywhere online or on JBL's site, I am ready to purchase either the 2402 or the 2342 and I am more leaning towards the 2342 as it seems to me to be a similar but bigger version of the 2404.

I am seeing the 2342 flare for sale with a 2416 driver so just checking here first if that driver would be the best option for using that 2342 horn as a standalone horn please? Thx.

[Robh3606]

The 2416 uses the same phase plug as the 2425. You could "upgrade" to 2425S or use 2426's with the horn adaptor plate removed. Just look at the response for a 4425 as an example of what the combo can do.

Rob:)

[newbie]

The 2416 uses the same phase plug as the 2425. You could "upgrade" to 2425S or use 2426's with the horn adaptor plate removed. Just look at the response for a 4425 as an example of what the combo can do.

Rob:)

Thanks Rob, one last question please. If it were YOU, which would you prefer to get between the 2404 or the 2342?

[Robh3606]

??? What are you plans for use?? The 2404 is a tweeter the 2416 does midrange as well and can be attached to a variety of horns.

Rob:)

[newbie]

??? What are you plans for use?? The 2404 is a tweeter the 2416 does midrange as well and can be attached to a variety of horns.

Rob:)

I wanted to get better highs in a 3 or 4way mono system so will connect either a super tweeter or horn for highs only to an amp. My thought is that the 2342 is simply a larger version of the 2404 so that would be my only reason for getting that instead of the 2404.

[Riley Casey]

They have different motors with different expected applications. The horn geometry creates the coverage pattern but the drivers define what frequency band they will work best in. Some one inch compression drivers can work at super tweeter frequencies if you want to restrict their high pass frequency but then you have to work on what sort of driver will meet you needs in the band below that. Decide what you want to do with the device and work back from there.


Thanks Rob, one last question please. If it were YOU, which would you prefer to get between the 2404 or the 2342?

[Robh3606]

I wanted to get better highs in a 3 or 4way mono system so will connect either a super tweeter or horn for highs only to an amp. My thought is that the 2342 is simply a larger version of the 2404 so that would be my only reason for getting that instead of the 2404.

Use a 2404 good out to 20K the 2416 on a 2342 out to 16K.

Rob:)

[newbie]

Thanks guys but I think I will first need to learn about frequency response since I don't have all that knowledge so I can try learning that on another forum then come back here if any questions so I won't frustrate you guys.

@Riley
Well Riley you can see I took your advice on the other forum and did exactly as you had advised by posting here for this purpose [thanks!]

[1audiohack]

Hi;

There are many patient knowledgable people here that are glad to help. You need not pass an exam to be here. :)

On a stretch the 4342 horn can play low enough in frequency to work with a good 15” woofer. Probably better with a 12” woofer.

Also on a stretch a 2404 can barely reach down to an 8” midrange speaker.

Some advice I got long ago is to look at the systems of interest that JBL built and work along those lines since that is where you will eventually end up anyway. That proved to be generally true.

JBL made plenty of four way systems in the studio monitor line. Take a look at the components used there and see of any of these line up with what you are thinking about.

If you described what you were working on elsewhere and I missed it, sorry.

If not, what are you dreaming of?

Barry.

[Riley Casey]

Sorry Mike, I can't help you on the SOS forum, I'm not signed up there. Your questions seemed pretty well answered on the PSW forum and it's pretty clear that you need to drop back a few yards and bone up on the basics. The short version is it's time to hit the Google for some edjamacation on hearing and audio technology. What you're asking on SOS is a bit beyond web forum answers. Shorter version is that it's the rare adult male in the western world that can hear anything higher than 15Khz. If you've spent any significant time listening to loud music, firearms, race cars or heavy machinery that number may be closer to 10Khz. You can actually do your own low budget tests on all of this by simply downloading a phone app that includes a sine wave generator ( Audio Tools from Studio Six Digital is very good ) and simply hook it up to your stereo and sweep some tones around at low levels to start to get a feel for what your ears can do with what your speakers can do at what frequencies. Just be slow and deliberate about this sort of thing. I'm not responsible for any damaged speakers.


Thanks guys but I think I will first need to learn about frequency response since I don't have all that knowledge so I can try learning that on another forum then come back here if any questions so I won't frustrate you guys.

@Riley
Well Riley you can see I took your advice on the other forum and did exactly as you had advised by posting here for this purpose [thanks!]

[newbie]

Ok noted. I gather from what you are saying is that I still need to dig deeper than the info I have gotten so far on SOS which I will do. Here's where I'm at so far guys. Below is what I have recently posted on SOS. Reason why I did this experiment was to try to help me decide if I should get the 2404 or the 2342? Or if the 2404 would be better than what I already have in the ST304?

I just did an experiment with a super tweeter:

https://jblpro.com/en/products/st304

and one of my Peavey MF1-X horns with a D220Ti driver with specs:

https://www.zxpc.us/product-p/252027433908.htm

I called my 21 year old son, I told him I want him to tell me which of the large Peavey horn is giving the most and best highs when I switch between the two. After playing a few tunes he said without a doubt the "left" is more powerful and sounds much better.

Thing is, he did not know it was the tweeter playing on the left channel which I placed right next to the peavey horn and he did not notice it.

So I have to ask myself now guys is why is that one little 5" tweeter out-performing that large 3' W x 14" H horn by that much, any ideas please?

[JeffW]

Sounds like he's shooting for a 4825 or 4828 type system.

What 1audiohack was saying about the 2404 is that it will only play so low - I don't think it's recommended to go much below 5000 hz or so, you'll trash the unobtainable diaphragm going any lower. But a 12" or 15" woofer won't play up to 5000 hz, they are not a good match for a 2 way system combined with a 2404. You'll end up with a huge hole from where the woofer peters out and the tweeter kicks in.

Which opens the next can of worms, the crossover. Which ever high frequency driver you choose, it'll need an appropriate crossover to both keep the woofer from trying to run full range (although it will probably drop off on it's own before it gets even close to 5000 hz) and to keep the tweeter from trying to play too low.

[Robh3606]

Lowest recommended is 3K look up the 4612 system. Dual 2118 and a 2404.

Rob:)

[JeffW]

Yeah, I have a 4612OK system - they used a 2402 diaphragm in a 2404 to push it down to meet the 8" woofers. Called it a 2404H-1

But I don't think 2402 diaphragms are available, either. If he has a straight 2404, it's gonna hate life.

[newbie]

I think it finally hit me last night guys, going through all of the info I have received on horns so far. I had a pair of Peavey SP2's years ago and had gotten rid of them because while I loved how the vocals sounded coming from the horns, it just did not give enough highs. So I got rid of them and upgraded to a pair of EV Eliminator I series which had better quality but it's square shaped horn does not give the type of highs either.

I think what I have been searching for is a horn from which I can get some vocals but also which has the highs of a super tweeter, that is what I have been searching for all this time and is why I am pinpointing the 2342 in particular. I am hoping since it seems to be a bigger version of the 2404 I might get the highs of the 2404 from that horn.

So my question to sum up this topic and issue is, is there a horn and/or driver available which fits this description please? Or if that is not available then my only option would be to get a separate super tweeter to add to a horn? or if I can get a driver which can give the highs of a super tweeter which can work with my Peavey MFI-X horns? This was my main reason why I started looking into understanding Specs, I was thinking that maybe a horn Driver's specs might tell me if it will give highs like a super tweeter.

I don't think I am alone with this as here in my neck of the woods in NY many DJ's build custom cabs with both larger horns and bullet tweeters.

[1audiohack]

....I don't think I am alone with this as here in my neck of the woods in NY many DJ's build custom cabs with both larger horns and bullet tweeters.

There may be a clue right there. Is this the sound you like or are after?

Very high frequency does not travel far before it gets absorbed by air so systems like you describe use bullet tweeters that have very narrow dispersion patterns to get the “sizzle” out to the audience.

If this is what you are after them I believe that you will want super tweeter like the 2404 above your big horn.

Do you have any signal shaping / EQ applied to your big horn? Virtually none of them (horns or drivers) are inherently flat in frequency response and if you don’t have some signal shaping applied it will very likely be loud in the midrange and soft on the highs.

Barry.

[1audiohack]

Do you have the 22A or 22T compression driver on your horns? Do you have the passive crossovers that Peavy used for these systems?

I found the spec sheet for the mark three system but wonder what all you have.

Barry.

[newbie]

There may be a clue right there. Is this the sound you like or are after?

Very high frequency does not travel far before it gets absorbed by air so systems like you describe use bullet tweeters that have very narrow dispersion patterns to get the “sizzle” out to the audience.

If this is what you are after them I believe that you will want super tweeter like the 2404 above your big horn.

Do you have any signal shaping / EQ applied to your big horn? Virtually none of them (horns or drivers) are inherently flat in frequency response and if you don’t have some signal shaping applied it will very likely be loud in the midrange and soft on the highs.

Barry.

Correct on all points Barry. My mistake was thinking that the 2342 horn would give the same highs of the 2404 and just more of it, that's the gist of it. Yesterday when I added the ST304 tweeter on top of the horn it works well just I have to control it's volume as it diminishes the bass according to my ears.

BTW, is Selenium brand JBL?

[newbie]

Do you have the 22A or 22T compression driver on your horns? Do you have the passive crossovers that Peavy used for these systems?

I found the spec sheet for the mark three system but wonder what all you have.

Barry.

Correct again. When I got the horns the internal crossovers was damage so I had to run them directly to a receiver. Also, since I already had the d220ti's sitting on a shelf I decided to use them thinking it would be better and more updated anyway than the original driver.

It's only now I am realizing that I am using a driver which was not intended for those horns. I could purchase a pair of the 22A but since I now know that even those will not give me the highs of the ST304 or any super tweeter then would not make sense.

[JeffW]

Correct again. When I got the horns the internal crossovers was damage so I had to run them directly to a receiver. Also, since I already had the d220ti's sitting on a shelf I decided to use them thinking it would be better and more updated anyway than the original driver.

It's only now I am realizing that I am using a driver which was not intended for those horns. I could purchase a pair of the 22A but since I now know that even those will not give me the highs of the ST304 or any super tweeter then would not make sense.

You need a crossover, those little compression drivers and tweeters are not meant to be ran full range. The reason (part of it) that you aren't getting crisp highs is because your compression driver is being fed low frequency material it was never designed to play. Swapping drivers without a crossover isn't going to get you where you want to go.

[newbie]

I have the receiver running through the DBX Eq, what I will do is run it through the BSS Processor too to see if that makes a difference but I will need to wait until my Sound guy who had setup the BSS can drop by to do it, get back to you whenever he does, thanks..

[JeffW]

Ah, that's different - you do have a crossover.

[newbie]

Yeah but I had thought that just EQing the horns would have been enough or the same thing.

[newbie]

Yes, seems I had made 2 mistakes, first, I using other drivers instead of the original 22a and also not running them horns through my crossover. Luckily I spoke to a friend yesterday who has the 22a who is going to send one to me in the next week or two.


When received I will set the crossover to the recommended points and run a side by side comparison with the current JBL and the 22a and will report back, thx guys.

[1audiohack]

30” X 16” That looks like a big nice horn. 64 questions:

Are you using them at home?

What BSS unit do you have?

What speaker compliment is under these horns? Like 15’s and subs or?

How tall is the vertical gap at it’s smallest point in the horn? I can’t find a picture that shows well enough to gage by. Looking at the polar response measurement Peavy shows and the pictures I can find I can’t guess.

As you have likely figured out, JBL made three different super tweeters with their ring radiator motor, the 075 / 2402 bullets have a 40 degree conical dispersion, they are spot lights for sound and in sound reinforcement they are used in arrays to horizontally spread the sound.

The 077 / 2405 has a different phase plug and diffraction wings added to make its dispersion pattern 40 degrees vertical and about 120-140 degrees horizontal. This most closely matches your horns dispersion patter and IMO would be great used singularly in a home environment with a horn like yours.

The 2404 has a 100 X 100 degree dispersion pattern. In some environments this can be good but in a home listening environment it will put sound energy on the ceiling and floor and may or may not be how you like to hear.

I forget the part number but Peavy made a near copy of the JBL 2404, if you want to keep it all in the Peavy family. :)

Barry.

[Riley Casey]

Nice if you need pattern control in the horizontal plane at 500hz. Pretty good knock off of a JBL 2350 but not something I'd want to be listening from any closer than 50ft . What is the appeal these days of lumping old, crude technology in with old, still good tech? Altec sectoral horns in living room stereos for instance.



30” X 16” That looks like a big nice horn...

Barry.

[newbie]

30” X 16” That looks like a big nice horn. 64 questions:

Are you using them at home?

What BSS unit do you have?

What speaker compliment is under these horns? Like 15’s and subs or?

How tall is the vertical gap at it’s smallest point in the horn? I can’t find a picture that shows well enough to gage by. Looking at the polar response measurement Peavy shows and the pictures I can find I can’t guess.

As you have likely figured out, JBL made three different super tweeters with their ring radiator motor, the 075 / 2402 bullets have a 40 degree conical dispersion, they are spot lights for sound and in sound reinforcement they are used in arrays to horizontally spread the sound.

The 077 / 2405 has a different phase plug and diffraction wings added to make its dispersion pattern 40 degrees vertical and about 120-140 degrees horizontal. This most closely matches your horns dispersion patter and IMO would be great used singularly in a home environment with a horn like yours.

The 2404 has a 100 X 100 degree dispersion pattern. In some environments this can be good but in a home listening environment it will put sound energy on the ceiling and floor and may or may not be how you like to hear.

I forget the part number but Peavy made a near copy of the JBL 2404, if you want to keep it all in the Peavy family. :)

Barry.

I wish I could have gotten my hands on a 4425 but that I am seeing is being sold for 2k, what the heck does it have in it?

No worries at all on the questions, I welcome them.

Yes using them at home in a one car garage. BSS FDS388. Under the horns:

https://av.loyola.com/products/audio/ev-eliminator-i.html

and under that EAW SB1000.

Not sure what you mean by "Vertical Gap"? I can take a pic tomorrow of the front of the horn up close, will that work?

@Riley.
Yeah, that's what I have been told by some guys, that the horns are way too big for that small space [20'L x 10'W x 8'H]. This is why I am looking at maybe only one 2342 horn as a workable replacement or some adequate sized horn for my space which driver/horn combo can give as close to highs like a super tweeter.

[Riley Casey]

Based on the description of the EV speaker you're using as the core of your garage speaker system you have a pretty good horn already in the HP64. The HF driver looks to be pretty low budget and the listed crossover frequency is too high for a 15. You might do well to look for a pair of EV DH1 drivers that are used on that horn in the very good sounding EV Deltamax and move the crossover down to the Deltamax settings ( 1khz low pass on the 15 and 1152hz high pass on the DH1 driver). The BSS 388 gives you lots of options for tuning that combo to your hearts content. Add a cheap knock off super tweeter like an Eminence ( https://www.eminence.com/speakers/supertweeter-detail/?model=BGH25_8 ) or similar and you could be in range of your goal.


...

https://av.loyola.com/products/audio/ev-eliminator-i.html

...

[newbie]

Thanks. the ST304 tweeter I tried couple days ago gives as good highs as any average super tweeter I am thinking so would be no need to buy any other. It's the horn situation is the issue. If after trying the original 22A on the Peavey horns with crossover tuning doesn't give me good enough highs to run the horn alone then I can look into trying that EV driver on the EV horn

[1audiohack]

Nice if you need pattern control in the horizontal plane at 500hz. Pretty good knock off of a JBL 2350 but not something I'd want to be listening from any closer than 50ft . What is the appeal these days of lumping old, crude technology in with old, still good tech? Altec sectoral horns in living room stereos for instance.

Hi Riley;

Until a post or two after the one you quoted me here, I didn’t know if he was in the great outdoors or in a closet.

I haven’t heard the horn newbie has but if he is looking for a big “DJ system” presentation like he said, he is in big horn large format driver territory I think. Also 90X40’s are generally my indoor favorites. His doesn't have a large format driver but my definition of loud is different that most here so for him that may be OK.

I certainly agree that there are a lot of big old horns that just don’t sound good, especially by todays standards and 2350’s fit that category in my book.

If I looked up the right Peavy horn, it doesn't look much like a 2350 to me.

It will be interesting to see where he lands.

Barry.

[Riley Casey]

This 'thread' started on the Pro Sound Web forum a few weeks ago and migrated here. I think I was referencing a horn he posted about in that thread as being a 2350 knock off. In a hard walled listing space like a garage a 60 x 40 horn might not be a bad choice and the EV horn used in the Deltamax is a good one.


Hi Riley;

...
If I looked up the right Peavy horn, it doesn't look much like a 2350 to me.

...

Barry.

[newbie]

Hey guys, a bud of mine sent me this pic today, please see attached image of his McCauley AC10 speaker, can anyone tell me if that is the same exact type horn as the 2342 please?

https://i.postimg.cc/RFtBdRM9/AC10.jpg

[grumpy]

87927


roughly similar, but no (from what I can see).

https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/0917/09/jbl-2342-bi-radial-horn_1_4f5ce39300b53df9f86a6fb5f809d831.jpg

[Riley Casey]

Yes, that appears to be a 2342 horn. Reference this thread for more info.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?17414-2342-vs-2344

At the risk of being a broken record broadly speaking the horn determines the dispersion of the sound, the driver attached to the horn determines the kind of sound you're going to get from the horn. In my experience the 2342 does not sound as good as the 2344 with the "same" driver despite the similar pattern characteristics. This might be the changes in the drivers due to the screw on throat. Might not. Hard to tell since you can't really bolt on a non-thread on driver to a 2342.


Hey guys, a bud of mine sent me this pic today, please see attached image of his McCauley AC10 speaker, can anyone tell me if that is the same exact type horn as the 2342 please?

https://i.postimg.cc/RFtBdRM9/AC10.jpg

[1audiohack]

roughly similar, but no (from what I can see).

Agree. The McCauley horn looks open much deeper or with out diffraction form all together ie having a smaller dispersion pattern. A better pic would help.

Like Riley said, a smaller pattern in a hard small space might be the ticket.

Barry.

[grumpy]

One could... 2425HS or 2426 w/o the spin-on flange, but this sounds like a dead end now.

[newbie]

Thanks for confirming guys. Forgot to mention that I had a pair of these Peavey horns back in the 90s with Atlas PD30 Drivers and those drivers came very close to giving highs like a super tweeter even though some consider them to be drivers for "paging" systems.

[newbie]

Hi Riley;

I haven’t heard the horn newbie has but if he is looking for a big “DJ system” presentation like he said, he is in big horn large format driver territory I think. Also 90X40’s are generally my indoor favorites. His doesn't have a large format driver but my definition of loud is different that most here so for him that may be OK.

I certainly agree that there are a lot of big old horns that just don’t sound good, especially by todays standards and 2350’s fit that category in my book.

If I looked up the right Peavy horn, it doesn't look much like a 2350 to me.

It will be interesting to see where he lands.

Barry.

Minor update guys, just by running both the original Peavey 22A drive and the JBL D220Ti through an eq the JBL far outclasses the Peavey. Will report back if we are able to run them through the Crossovers this Sunday.

Meantime, JBL Tech had said he thinks the best driver for horn for highs is the D2415K D2, I could not find the specs for this driver only this here:

https://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/loudspeakers/series/studio-monitors/4349.html

has anyone heard that speaker or driver?

[HCSGuy]

Minor update guys, just by running both the original Peavey 22A drive and the JBL D220Ti through an eq the JBL far outclasses the Peavey. Will report back if we are able to run them through the Crossovers this Sunday.

Meantime, JBL Tech had said he thinks the best driver for horn for highs is the D2415K D2, I could not find the specs for this driver only this here:

https://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/loudspeakers/series/studio-monitors/4349.html

has anyone heard that speaker or driver?

It's one of the newest gen drivers, $330ea from Speaker Exchange. I have no experience with it.

https://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-5020810x-d2415k-high-frequency-driver-d2/

[grumpy]

Selenium D220Ti is a $50 driver from Brazil and is a screw on driver.
JBL D2415K is being sold new for over $300 (even used on eBay), is .8" exit, and bolt-on (would require an odd adapter and could kill some of the potential benefit).

Not sure the JBL Tech info was particularly helpful toward your application/goal.
I would expect a change in horn (if even available) would be required to get the most from that driver.

If the D220Ti works well for you, it might be a good place to stop and enjoy :)

[Riley Casey]

That is the driver used in the current mid sized VTX20 line array box . If you've been to a show using those boxes you've heard lots of those drivers. In those boxes the drivers ( it uses three manifolded onto a single horn ) are the high end on top of a four 5" mid drivers and has a fairly high crossover point. Pricey little guy afaik but the VTX do sound good so might be a good choice.


...
Meantime, JBL Tech had said he thinks the best driver for horn for highs is the D2415K D2, I could not find the specs for this driver only this here:

https://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/loudspeakers/series/studio-monitors/4349.html

has anyone heard that speaker or driver?

[newbie]

Selenium D220Ti is a $50 driver from Brazil and is a screw on driver.
If the D220Ti works well for you, it might be a good place to stop and enjoy :)

Yeah, I have already tried adding a super tweeter I had lying around here for years which was not in use. When done with the experimenting I w'ill know the deal.

That Driver Spec's I am not understanding. Well first Jbl Tech had said that the D220Ti's specs shows no roll off at 20khz [which surprised me] because that was based on their testing at -6db. Now this 2415 driver shows a range up to 25khz, waiting to see the specs of it to know more, I'm just curios why if the human ear will only be able to hear around 12-15khz or so then why make a driver which goes up to 25khz?

[Riley Casey]

Because it looks good on the spec sheet and helps sales to people who listen with their eyes and wallets rather than their hears


..., I'm just curios why if the human ear will only be able to hear around 12-15khz or so then why make a driver which goes up to 25khz?

[grumpy]

D220Ti test condition? on a 45º exponential horn, on-axis (HL14-25 plastic trumpet).

Unless that is your application, that test is useless without interpretation.
Look at the spec pdf (available at JBLpro.com). The plane-wave tube test response is closer to what you might expect on a constant-directivity horn.
Also look at the directivity plots... by 8KHz, that driver/horn is entering laser beam territory.. lol.

Use the D220Ti, have realistic expectations of your horn, and if you can pull down the mids (vs boosting the highs), it might work quite well.

[newbie]

Use the D220Ti, have realistic expectations of your horn, and if you can pull down the mids (vs boosting the highs), it might work quite well.

Good advice, noted, thanks.

Yes, that 2415 driver sparks my curiosity wondering how 2 diaphragms will sound and also since the cheap $50 D220Ti does give good highs, I have to wonder how much better the 2415 might be? Would I buy one to try it out? Only if I would have the funds and option to send it back.

[newbie]

Well guys, last night we were able to do the experimenting and finally some clarity. Running that Peavey 22A original driver for the MF1-X horns did the trick, results were far better than with the Selenium D220ti driver. We got all the frequencies of the super tweeter, we were amazed that the 40 year old 22A driver would give that performance so this issue is now very firmly settled.

Here's the thing however, we had run the system back to back through both the Rane Ac23 and the BSS Processor, it was through the Rane that we were able to get that performance out of the 22A while the BSS far outclassed the Rane on the bass. The next and final experiment hopefully on this coming Sunday will be to see if we can get the BSS to get the same performance from the 22A driver.

[grumpy]

Progress! :)

[newbie]

Yeah, I think I jumped the gun on getting rid of my Ashly crossover though. I bought into the "rep" which Rane has but was disappointed that it did not give as good a bass as the Ashly. Now too only this morning looking at the specs of that Ashly XR1001 I am seeing around the same specs as the Rane. This is suggesting to me that the Ashly might have given me the better analog bass and also the same highs as the Rane.

This coming w/e however we will make a better attempt to see if the bass from the Rane can come close to the BSS as the Ashly did.

[Riley Casey]

If there was a perceptible difference in the bass response between a Rane and Ashly analog crossover one of them is broken. The circuitry just isn't that different. Did you test the suspect crossover output with an oscillator and a meter?


... I bought into the "rep" which Rane has but was disappointed that it did not give as good a bass as the Ashly. ...

[newbie]

No, we are doing this all by ear with trial and error. That's exactly what I am seeing concerning the circuitry.