Metregon modification

[roads31]

Hello all-
A question to throw out to the community; any chance of success to combine a 2226J woofer with an LE85 and 075 in a Metregon?

I've had the Metregon for some years now, it currently has 2226j woofers with LE85 compression drivers and rebuilt LX5 crossovers. I've never loved the sound and always felt it could sound better and do acknowledge it will never sound "modern". I have a pair of 075's and the ability to build whatever crossover needed. I'm pretty sure the LE85 is the wrong driver to attempt this with but with plenty of quarantine time on my hands I thought I'd ask the question.

Thanks,
Gary

[roads31]

After some more digging I did find that JBL was used the LE15A/LE85/075 combo before with the LX5 and N8000 crossovers in the EN5 enclosure. The question then becomes about the 2226j and the Metregon enclosure which was chimed in on by Mr. Widget when I posed the 2226j question in 2012.

"The Metregon isn't a particularly sophisticated design. By that I mean the networks are very basic and should work with a variety of JBL woofers. That said, you'll likely find the 2226 is too sensitive and puts out too much midbass and midrange energy."

After having installed the 2226j woofers, I tend to somewhat agree with that.

[Mr. Widget]

I have never actually seen or heard a JBL Metregon, but one of the better driver compliments that it was offered with was with a pair of LE15As and LE85s with the bent horns. Not sure where the 075s go, but they can't hurt. It sounds like you are most of the way there.

Now that said, while I like the LE85, I do not think it should be run below about 800Hz. I am not a fan of the 2226 as a home music reproducer, though many seem fond of them... I think there is much room to tweak your system, or maybe add a DSP and work on it that way.


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[roads31]

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I had refoamed LE15A's and actually preferred the 2226j after I did a test swap, for the Metregon. At that time I also had a pair of L200's and did the same thing, the LE15's prevailed.
Of all the JBL 2-way systems I've had I always felt there was room for improvement, the midrange always pleasing but missing subtleties in the high end.
Time to learn more about crossovers and play around with what I have and build what I don't.
Thanks

[Mr. Widget]

Are you in love with the look of the Metregon? I’m confident that if your goal is superlative audio performance the design of the Metregon with its required bent mid horns and bass cabinet design, you’ll never achieve performance equaling that of many other designs.

So, if the aesthetic design of this speaker is a driver, I would add DSP at a minimum and going tri-amped with DSP will allow you the ability to get the most from this speaker.


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[bedrock602]

So, if the aesthetic design of this speaker is a driver, I would add DSP at a minimum and going tri-amped with DSP will allow you the ability to get the most from this speaker.


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My apologies for my ignorance, but what is a "DSP" and how is it used?

[Mr. Widget]

My apologies for my ignorance, but what is a "DSP" and how is it used?DSP is a technology. There are many types and quality levels, but DSP is digital signal processing. Typically is is used for equalization, time and phase correction, and can be used in "room correction" systems, it is available in many pro-audio amplifiers and digital active crossovers.

In consumer hi-fi and home theater equipment all digital AVRs and integrated amps have some form of DSP included. DEQX is a high end consumer unit with sophisticated DSP as well as other features.

Behringer, DBX, and others offer low cost versions. A moderately priced unit that I use to tune the sub/woofer in my stereo system is the Ashly Protea 3.6SP. I only use it for low bass EQ within a system that is tri-amped and is an entirely analog system. The Ashly will take up to three inputs and give you up to six outputs, so you could use it to give you a stereo tri-amped system with full DSP control if you wanted... and it would be an improvement in that application to an otherwise less than stellar system. I choose to limit is to frequencies below 75Hz as my system is pretty good without any additional EQ or time/phase correction.


Probably more info than you wanted, but hopefully that explains DSP and offers some potential paths for its use.


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[Riley Casey]

Digital Signal Processor The modern rendition of an electronic crossover with the capacity for defining crossover slopes, equalization and delay.


My apologies for my ignorance, but what is a "DSP" and how is it used?

[bedrock602]

Digital Signal Processor The modern rendition of an electronic crossover with the capacity for defining crossover slopes, equalization and delay.

Thank you. Is there a brand or type that would be better suited to vintage JBL's?

[Mr. Widget]

Thank you. Is there a brand or type that would be better suited to vintage JBL's?The type of system you currently have, your budget, and your ability to measure, test, and learn basic audio principles will determine what is best for you.

If you are a complete novice and are not prepared to make lots of mistakes and invest a lot of time learning about this stuff, you should look for an amp or AVR with built in room correction. These systems are often very easy to use and the better ones sound pretty darned good.

These may be out of your price range, but are among the best sounding easiest to use amps with built in room correction. The TDAI-2170 is about $4,000.

https://lyngdorf.steinwaylyngdorf.com/electronics/


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[bedrock602]

The type of system you currently have, your budget, and your ability to measure, test, and learn basic audio principles will determine what is best for you.

If you are a complete novice and are not prepared to make lots of mistakes and invest a lot of time learning about this stuff, you should look for an amp or AVR with built in room correction. These systems are often very easy to use and the better ones sound pretty darned good.

These may be out of your price range, but are among the best sounding easiest to use amps with built in room correction. The TDAI-2170 is about $4,000.

https://lyngdorf.steinwaylyngdorf.com/electronics/


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Thank you. I am a novice but have aspirations of learning how speakers work. I built my first crossover for a pair of JBL L88's. The original crossovers only had one capacitor for the tweeter and an L-Pad. I did a frequency sweep of both the woofer and tweeter to determine the crossover points and then used an online crossover calculator to design the new ones. I built and installed one crossover so that I could compare it to the original. Listening to them side by side with a mono source I was impressed by how different they sounded but I can't say the new x-over sounded better, it was just different.

The next step I'd like to take is to measure them to see what the differences are on a graph. I should have some time to do this over the next couple of months.

Regarding the AVR, thank you for the suggestion, but I am thoroughly committed to vintage tube and solid state amps. I have not yet tried electronic crossovers so was just wondering if they or a DSP would be useful in designing passive crossovers.

[Riley Casey]

Even for the most hardcore analog listening chain aficionados DSP crossovers provide a powerful tool for discovering the optimal speaker crossover settings in ways that classic speaker designers could only dream of. With a DSP unit like the Ashlys, BSS or XTAs it's very easy and fast to create 12 to 48 db per octave filters plus equalizers and time delay to find the optimal settings for any speaker system be it a new arrangement of drivers never envisioned by JBL or even improving on settings made in the 1960s or 70s with the much more simple tools available in those days. Yes there is a significant learning curve but even if you use the knowledge gained from experimenting with DSP units to recreate the characteristics you decide on in say passive crossovers or an analog crossover like a BSS 360 it will certainly expand your mind and understanding.


...
Regarding the AVR, thank you for the suggestion, but I am thoroughly committed to vintage tube and solid state amps. I have not yet tried electronic crossovers so was just wondering if they or a DSP would be useful in designing passive crossovers.

[macaroonie]

Even for the most hardcore analog listening chain aficionados DSP crossovers provide a powerful tool for discovering the optimal speaker crossover settings in ways that classic speaker designers could only dream of. With a DSP unit like the Ashlys, BSS or XTAs it's very easy and fast to create 12 to 48 db per octave filters plus equalizers and time delay to find the optimal settings for any speaker system be it a new arrangement of drivers never envisioned by JBL or even improving on settings made in the 1960s or 70s with the much more simple tools available in those days. Yes there is a significant learning curve but even if you use the knowledge gained from experimenting with DSP units to recreate the characteristics you decide on in say passive crossovers or an analog crossover like a BSS 360 it will certainly expand your mind and understanding.

Yup. Well put.

I'm an active addict , have been since the last King died. First point is you need a pile of amps. Watts are inexpensive these days.
Maybe as a starter the OP could get his hands on a 3x Ashley and some low dollah amps to get the ball rolling. After that he will not look back I'm sure.
The other thing not emphasised with DSP or Speaker Management is that you have a lot of control over room equalisation.
In simple terms you can design a new crossover in about 5 minutes and have it running. DSP is very powerful.
On the other hand there is the question about the sound quality of the DSP units ,, some are known to sound very fine , XTA for example are noted as being clean and neutral. BSS also.
OP needs to take some advice on that but the removal of the ratty old X/O in itself will enhance the SQ greatly.

[Riley Casey]

A four input, eight output Ashly 4,24D can be had on Ebay these days for under $100. Thats all the DSP I needed to set up stereo three way in my living room along with a six channel NAD amp from Ebay which set me back another $120. Not ultra high end components by the standards of the serious ears here but more than adequate in my townhouse living room with 2226s on the lows, 2202s for mids and 2344+2426 horns for the high's. I'll piss off the neighbors long before I run out of headroom. Besides, I'm used to having a warehouse of sound gear and space to work with it to my hearts content. The virus changed that in an instant so the challenge now is downsizing. The tools like low cost DSP and low cost measurement tools like Smaart ( or free like REW ) for really drilling down into the performance of loudspeakers have really turned the world upside down.


Yup. Well put.

I'm an active addict , have been since the last King died. First point is you need a pile of amps. Watts are inexpensive these days.
Maybe as a starter the OP could get his hands on a 3x Ashley and some low dollah amps to get the ball rolling. After that he will not look back I'm sure.
The other thing not emphasised with DSP or Speaker Management is that you have a lot of control over room equalisation.
In simple terms you can design a new crossover in about 5 minutes and have it running. DSP is very powerful.
On the other hand there is the question about the sound quality of the DSP units ,, some are known to sound very fine , XTA for example are noted as being clean and neutral. BSS also.
OP needs to take some advice on that but the removal of the ratty old X/O in itself will enhance the SQ greatly.

[Mr. Widget]

The virus changed that in an instant so the challenge now is downsizing.That's an understatement! On the one hand, I finally have had the time to get my turntable reworked and dialed in and have tackled a number of home projects, but I was also lucky enough to get called back to work before too much financial damage was done... so many folks I know have not been as lucky. I hope we can all pull out of this nose dive soon.


The tools like low cost DSP and low cost measurement tools like Smaart ( or free like REW ) for really drilling down into the performance of loudspeakers have really turned the world upside down.I still have my old CLIO rig and use it occasionally, but I mostly use a $20 app from Studio 6 Digital with a calibrated mic... really stunning how good this stuff can be and at a very affordable cost.


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[roads31]

Are you in love with the look of the Metregon? I’m confident that if your goal is superlative audio performance the design of the Metregon with its required bent mid horns and bass cabinet design, you’ll never achieve performance equaling that of many other designs.

So, if the aesthetic design of this speaker is a driver, I would add DSP at a minimum and going tri-amped with DSP will allow you the ability to get the most from this speaker.


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Ok, hate is a little harsh. I do love the aesthetics of the Metregon which I lovingly refer to as a manatee at times, impressively large but not too elegant (at most things).
In my last post about it I was seeking opinions about solving problems by our previous house, large vaulted ceilings, windows and cement slab foundation. At the time I played with an ADC SS-525 X sound shaper EQ which I had on hand which improved the low end but sucked the life out of the midrange. I've never used any "smarter" processing units but I would guess they might be thrown into a tailspin when analyzing the effects of the front refractor panel when assessing the system. I fear doing to much to where I lose where the Metregon shines, vintage jazz.
I appreciate the input. I'll likely play around with components I currently have and experiment with crossovers.

[macaroonie]

Ok, hate is a little harsh. I do love the aesthetics of the Metregon which I lovingly refer to as a manatee at times, impressively large but not too elegant (at most things).
In my last post about it I was seeking opinions about solving problems by our previous house, large vaulted ceilings, windows and cement slab foundation. At the time I played with an ADC SS-525 X sound shaper EQ which I had on hand which improved the low end but sucked the life out of the midrange. I've never used any "smarter" processing units but I would guess they might be thrown into a tailspin when analyzing the effects of the front refractor panel when assessing the system. I fear doing to much to where I lose where the Metregon shines, vintage jazz.
I appreciate the input. I'll likely play around with components I currently have and experiment with crossovers.

One of the nice free gifts that you typically find in a DSP is parametric EQ. This allows you to exactly home in on problem ares and foresically adjust the parameters of the filter you are using.. This is like having good optics on a target rifle.

Can i suggest that you download the sofware for one of the popular DSP units and have a play around. Most are shift on the fly as it were.
I have the XTA DP226 software resident on my computer , it's not clunky and the graphics are very intuitive M
You should be able to grab DBX 260 software. Both of the above have been superceeded but as a free learning tool , invaluable.

Regards M

[Mr. Widget]

...At the time I played with an ADC SS-525 X sound shaper EQ which I had on hand which improved the low end but sucked the life out of the midrange.I am not familiar with this EQ, but from my experience with both analog and digital units, if you use too much correction you always suck the life out of the sound. Buying the world’s best DSP won’t fix this. With care though, you can move acoustic mountains with these things.



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[roads31]

Hey all-

Yesterday I set up the Metregon with an active crossover., something I was always curious about. I have a McIntosh 2105 driving the woofers and the LE85's being driven by a McIntosh MA6100. I really like the results. No, I didn't solve what I perceive to be the challenges of the refractor panel but certainly improved the overall sound. The bass more defined and tighter, better definition and taming of the LE85's.
Because the Metregon for me will never be a sit in front of for critical listening system, I'm done tweaking.

[Mike Caldwell]

Look at the DBX 360.

You can down the control software and demo it on your computer or if you have an iPad load the app and take a look it in the virtual mode.

[roads31]

Look at the DBX 360.

You can down the control software and demo it on your computer or if you have an iPad load the app and take a look it in the virtual mode.

Hey Mike- Thanks for the recommendation but I think I'm done. If my system was set up in a room specifically for listening I'd probably consider that route but it's not, the only wall for this to reside is across from a dining table in a large room and with the Metregon being the weird beast that it is, trying dial it in any further just won't enhance the listening experience. I am glad I tried bi-amping with the active crossover, it was a big improvement.

[Mike Caldwell]

Hey Mike- Thanks for the recommendation but I think I'm done. If my system was set up in a room specifically for listening I'd probably consider that route but it's not, the only wall for this to reside is across from a dining table in a large room and with the Metregon being the weird beast that it is, trying dial it in any further just won't enhance the listening experience. I am glad I tried bi-amping with the active crossover, it was a big improvement.


Taking bi-amping or tri-amping to the next level with a DSP with a speaker like the Metregon would let you truly time align the drivers. I have never listened to a Metregon but I'm sure it would really bring it to life so to speak.
Horn loaded speakers I have listen to after being time aligned made for a noticeable improvement.

Actually time aligned front loaded speakers sound better.
In the case of my PA system cabinets the high frequency drivers are on horns putting the drivers deeper in the cabinets so the mids and or lows are delayed back to the high frequency driver.

Using SMARRT or REW lets you know when your there with the delay.

[Mr. Widget]

Hey all-

Yesterday I set up the Metregon with an active crossover... I really like the results... I'm done tweaking.Sounds like success to me. Spin or stream your favorites and enjoy the music!


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