To 1400 Array, or not to 1400 Array. That is the question?

[kelossus]

Having had a good run with vintage JBL's and a brief foray with modern JBL's the Arrays have always intrigued me. I am considering a purchase and potential upgrade to my current main speakers. Listening before hand is not an option and I'll be buying blind, not ideal but it's the way it is where I live and can't be avoided.

Before purchasing I want to get opinions on whether the speakers will be an actual upgrade. I currently run a pair of Duntech Sovereign's and have fallen in love with the house sound of the original Dunlavy designed speakers. I have just come from a pair of 4350's and the Duntech's were a significant upgrade. The 4350's have significantly more bass slam but that's the only area I would give them the nod.

The thing the Sovereign's do so well and I just couldn't do with out, the soundstage. They are big speakers but they sound even bigger. The 250TI's did this but nothing like the Sovereign's. The height of the sound stage is as tall as my room will allow. Voices are unrestricted within the image. They render a sound stage as large and open as any modern speaker I have heard. Will the 1400 Array's do the same but with that added punch I want back? I had a pair of S3900's a few years ago and did not like them at all. The bass was excellent but the mid-range had absolutely no color to it and lacked personality. My ancillary components are all neutrally voiced so I don't want the same from my speakers. Do the 1400 Arrays have a bit more spark and personality than the S3900's? I haven't heard a system with the 175ND's that has blown me away. It may be that particular driver just doesn't do it for me.

Not expecting the 1400 Arrays to extend as low as the Sovereign's but that doesn't bother me.

[1audiohack]

I have no experience with the Dunalv’s. I do have 1400 Arrays and 4350’s.

As you have undoubtably read the 1400’s deliver on the imaging front, they excel there. Punch? Nope. The driver compliment simply cannot deliver the dynamics of large format drivers.

Don’t get me wrong, I think they sound very nice, better than most but they don’t have much get up and go, even on big amps so if it’s dynamics you are after, I strongly suggest you find a way to hear a pair before you buy.

Barry.

[kelossus]

Mate that is interesting. I know the 1400 Array use the LE14H-4 driver which is virtually identical to the 250TI driver. Very familiar with the 250's infact I am going to a mates tonight who has a pair. His 250's have way more punch than my Duntech's so if the 1400's are on par with the 250's I'll be happy. I don't know how much of the punch of the 250's is attributed to the mid-bass driver.

[JeffW]

I have 250Ti and I think a lot of the punch comes from that 8" midbass driver. Probably my favorite part of the 250Ti.

[rdgrimes]

The only way you get my Array gear away from me is with something higher up the Synthesis food chain. Barring that I plan to die with them playing. Offer me something from the Summit Series and I'll try it but the Array still have a home.
The 1400 do suffer from a bit of compression at high levels, but you only notice it right before your ears start bleeding. In normal use its never an issue.

[Mr. Widget]

I am also a 1400 Array fan. The imaging and voicing are both excellent. The bass extension is quite adequate, not the last word in deep bass, but quite good. As Barry said, the weakest thing about the 1400 Arrays is their dynamic punch. Not having heard the Dunlavies or Duntechs, I can’t say how they compare, but the 1400 Arrays probably match or exceed their ability in this area, but that is only speculation. When I say the 1400 Arrays are lacking in dynamic punch, I am comparing them with 4350s or DD6600/DD6700 systems... both are systems with dual 15” woofers and massive 4” compression drivers.

All that said, if I had to choose only one pair of speakers, and the two choices were 4350s or 1400 Arrays, I would go with the Arrays.


Widget

[DavidF]

The Sovereign isn't likely to be in many folk's listening experience making it difficult to comment appropriately.

I am no different. The Sovereign by reputation was meant to offer up just about everything you wanted in a speaker and is a soundstage champ.

My sense is that given your high satisfaction with the Sovereign's imaging you are not likely to match that with the JBL.

The Array 1400 does image very well but likely the advantage over the Sovereign MAY be found in better dynamics and clarity over the Sovereign.

If you are OK with the HUGE size of the Sovereigns and can fit into it's narrow sweet spot then it would be seem better to stick with them. They are a pretty rare animal which makes it even more difficult to move them out.

[sweet212]

I've owned 4350's and now own the 250ti's and 1400's.

The 4350's were loud and dynamic but that's about all I could say that is positive. The 250ti's are just OK great dynamics, plenty of slam. I bought the 250ti's thinking they would sound similar to my beloved 212's but with better power handling - they didn't unfortunately.

The 1400's are neutral and easy to listen to for long periods. They can handle the full output of my 600 watt amp. Mellow is the word I would use for them. But if you want slam - look elsewhere.

[Mr. Widget]

I've owned 4350's and now own the 250ti's and 1400's.

The 4350's were loud and dynamic but that's about all I could say that is positive. The 250ti's are just OK great dynamics, plenty of slam. I bought the 250ti's thinking they would sound similar to my beloved 212's but with better power handling - they didn't unfortunately.

The 1400's are neutral and easy to listen to for long periods. They can handle the full output of my 600 watt amp. Mellow is the word I would use for them. But if you want slam - look elsewhere.+1

I rarely say this, but I agree with EVERY word you posted.


Widget

[kelossus]

When describing the 1400's as mellow is that in regards to dynamics or mid-range presence? Mellow is how I would describe the 250TI's when compared to the horn loaded models. Very surprised anyone would want the 250TI's to sound like the L212's. I have owned both and the 250TI's are a far better system in my experience.

Having heard the LE14 in the 250's and PS1400/PT800 system I don't see how they could lack the dynamics I am after. Unless running them in a 3-way system cripples them somehow.

Seems as though very few would have heard both the Arrays and Sovereign's.

[Mr. Widget]

When describing the 1400's as mellow...Smooth without edge or any honkiness.


Widget

[Earl K]

kelossus,

I do forget if you have any "diy DNA" so please forgive if the following can't apply.

I'd recommend a read of JuniorJBL's thread An Array "Epiphany" (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?36820-I-have-been-kidding-myself-this-whole-time!!&highlight=) ( granted my title here is a complete paraphrase ).
- Here's Shanes opening line ( as a teaser );


I was afraid to take apart my system that consisted of Array horns with 476Mg's, 045Be's and LE14H-3's because I thought I would loose the magic that I had found with this system.

I'd say follow his lead and build your own Array using some of JBL's top-of-line transducers .

"1audiohack" has a great line ( or 2 ) in there ( about the "Blackness" in better woofers ) that might make you follow the bread-crumbs ( so-to-speak ) .

Personally, I'd electronically biamp the bottom 15" ( you can make that woofer a JBL 2216nd (https://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-2216nd-woofer-for-jbl-m2-5041785) since they are available from SpeakerEx ) while using a separate amp for the HF > and using a passive cross over on it .

Also, maybe use Ian's ( not yet released ) electronic crossover for the LF > when available.

I'd use a better driver (than the stock 3" diaphragmed model ) driving the SAM1HF horn (https://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/loudspeakers/type/lcr-oudspeakers/SAM1HF-.html) . Maybe a 2451 with a Beryllium diaphragm installed ).


http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=44181&stc=1&d=1265492374



:)

[srm51555]

+1 on everything

[kelossus]

By the time I sourced all the components to build a quasi 1400 Array it would cost more than buying a pair. Also I am left with a pair of speakers that have little resale value here in Australia, only worth the sum of their parts.

[Mr. Widget]

By the time I sourced all the components to build a quasi 1400 Array it would cost more than buying a pair. Also I am left with a pair of speakers that have little resale value here in Australia, only worth the sum of their parts.No arguments here... many have spent more to only end up with far less.

DIY can be very rewarding, but quite costly at the same time. Costly in terms of both time and money!


Widget

[sweet212]

I intend to box up my 250ti's, return to and unbox my old 1400's. I prefer the admittedly less efficient but more polite sound of the 1400's.

The 1400's do have a subdued top end, exacerbated by too much soft furnishings in my man cave. I wish they had treble control on their tweeters.

[jblnut]

I was a longtime 250Ti owner who wanted to move on to something newer. I listened to the Array 1400 years ago and liked it quite a bit, but not enough to make the move. It was the Salon 2's that finally got my checkbook out and I'm very happy with the swap. They are much more "modern" and "hifi" in their presentation than what I was used to. What they do best (imaging, soundstage and unbelievably uncolored sound) may not be the top things on everyone's list though. In fact if you are after that "large format" sound, these may not do it for you. I just bring them into the discussion as there is a lot of JBL DNA in these and they've been gushingly reviewed for nearly a decade now.

It's well worth hearing a pair if you can....

jblnut

[doodle6]

I own, listen to, and love an assortment of vintage and modern JBLs - L110, L220, L300, 4350, Array 1400, Everest DD67000. IMO, for the money, best are Array 1400. Price aside, Everest.

Imaging on the last two is awesome.

[tom1040]

I still have my 1400 Array's that i bought a few years ago. Bought them used from James Tanner who had them and wrote a review. I posted it here a number of years ago.

Here it is again. For my money and with my Marantz reference gear, I think the speakers sound sublime.

[Champster]

The Duntech Sovereign’s were my absolute favorite speaker for many years. I used to work in Los Angeles in the late 80s and heard them often at Christopher Hansen’s shop in Beverly Hills. He had them and the giant Goldman Apologues on display. The Goldmans were way overrated (IMHO) and didn’t hold a candle to the Sovereigns. The Sovereign’s imaging was fantastic (they said setup was a bear to get them right) and the coherence of all those drivers was superb. They sounded as coherent as a small 2 way bookshelf speaker but (very) full range. Fun anecdote: When I was at the store one day, Magic Johnson of the Lakers walked in and I was told he was buying 2 pair for his home (sitting them side by side).

I’ve never heard the 1400s but clearly they get good reviews from many people. I’m surprised you haven’t mentioned the similarly priced M2s. I have the M2s and love them! They have entirely different and much more modern set of drivers and wave guide than the traditional CD and woofer set of the 1400 or even the Everests. So if you haven’t heard them, I’d encourage you to take the time and effort to give them a listen. So, while I can’t say I’ve done a side by side comparison of the M2/Sovereigns, based on my memory of the Sovereign’s, I think you’d appreciate the imaging and punch, without suffering from any sense of stress listening at whatever volume you desire. Just my 2¢...

Paul

[Champster]

As long as you’re trying to gather information, give the first post in this thread a read...
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=142929.20

[Mr. Widget]

As long as you’re trying to gather information, give the first post in this thread a read...
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=142929.20The M2 is also a great speaker. In its stock enclosure it isn’t beautiful and the electronics requirements are rather limiting, but if you can get past those two issues it is a real contender. I agree with the premise of the first post in that thread regarding well designed horn systems vs. well designed cone/dome systems.

That said, I personally prefer the DD67000 over the arguably more accurate and better imaging M2. This is purely subjective, but to me the DD67000 sounds more like music and feels more alive. I would say the same thing in comparison with the big Revels.

FWIW: In a conversation with Kevin Voecks, he told me he had taken a pair of M2s home and was giving them a serious audition at that time. He had nothing but praise for the M2 system. While he did not share my enthusiasm for the DD67000, he wasn’t dismissive of the big JBLs. He is more interested in imaging and exacting neutrality so the DD67000 isn't his favorite system. Just another case of differing goals and desires for different listeners and why we need so many different flavors of great.


Widget

[g_t_r]

JBL Array 1400 is far, far more superior than Ti250/L250 model, different league - simply conventional speaker cannot compete with compression drivers / horn design in newer Array model. This is different class. Arrays with proper system (I'm recommending strong Levinson amps) and clean signal (no tubes etc.), in proper room - are able to blow your mind :)

[cooky1257]

FWIW. After quite a few years use I'm still very happy with my active DIY take on the Array 1400 using 2206 bass mid with the SAM1/2435Be and the bottom end below 80hz taken care of by a BK XXL400 sub.
The SAM1 is very polite and un hornlike, after lots of tweaking they ended up crossed at 1050hz and in terms of mid punch are not found wanting.
I tried the SAM1 with a 2452/Be @750hz and it was this upper mid solidity that was very persuasive over the 3",crossing the 2435 higher with the 2206 filling the gap seemed to work in a similar way.