For the Love of Money...

[toddalin]

On the Ethyl Mermans. CD on Oppo-95 through Yamaha RX-Z9 receiver in "Direct" mode. No eq, digital processing, room correction, sub, etc.


https://youtu.be/qzjztUEy2V8

[grumpy]

Nice. Studio effects as an instrument (nearly) ...fun blast from the past.

youtube had these juxtaposed (coincidence?) lol

86781

[BMWCCA]

Lovely! And thanks for posting it.

But I still marvel at the expectation that a YouTube video of any hi-fi system will sound like anything beyond what the viewer is listening on. The superb definition, separation, extended frequency range, and spatial imaging on display here sounded . . . pretty much just like anything else on my laptop's dime-sized speakers! Even if I played it on my 4345s would it give me any idea of what your system sounds like in your room?? :dont-know:

[toddalin]

Lovely! And thanks for posting it.

But I still marvel at the expectation that a YouTube video of any hi-fi system will sound like anything beyond what the viewer is listening on. The superb definition, separation, extended frequency range, and spatial imaging on display here sounded . . . pretty much just like anything else on my laptop's dime-sized speakers! Even if I played it on my 4345s would it give me any idea of what your system sounds like in your room?? :dont-know:

Agreed..., but,

You can still hear smooth vs peak and dips in the frequency response, clarity in the vocals, and an overall balance. (At least I can.) If you can't even get those right, forget about the rest of it. :banghead:

Sure you loose the separation, imaging (which is fantastic!), bass (camera compresses it), tactile feel, slam, and je ne c'est quoi, but I can certainly listen on my Advent computer monitor system and hear the differences between a good system and mediocre fare.

If your computer is lacking, listen on good headphones.

Here's a thought. Kendrick Sound advertises through YouTube. You don't think that they recognize that people are listening on their computers and not everyone will listen over their monitors?

Also, do you think that the recording industry doesn't release music because they don't think that everyone can listen on optimal systems? I have SACDs that run full bandwidth to the rear channels. While most people rear's don't do the full bandwidth, that doesn't stop them from releasing them in this manner.

[BMWCCA]

Agreed..., but, . . .

If your computer is lacking, listen on good headphones.
Oh I could have listened to your video on my TV room L5/Crown/JBL amp system, or my living room 4345s, but then I'd be listening to a recording of your speakers played back on some other speaker or headphone. No way I'm hearing your system!

Similar questions are what is at the end of the universe and not unrelated to looking at your reflection in a hall of mirrors. At some point, what is real? Same issue with Kenrick: What you're hearing is whatever speaker/headphone/system you're listening to their videos on. You are not hearing their systems. A picture may be worth a thousand words but a recording of a recording played back on any other setup or system is . . . well, not really much of anything related to the original source!
:banghead: :cheers:

[toddalin]

A picture may be worth a thousand words but a recording of a recording played back on any other setup or system is . . . well, not really much of anything related to the original source!
:banghead: :cheers:


So, you can't listen to two systems on YouTube and tell if one "could" sound good and the other like "would" sound like crap? You can't tell if the frequency response is smooth or riddled with peaks and dips?

I can listen to people's YouTube cell phone recordings of JBL L200s and L300s and still hear the vocal "veil." You can't do that?

[BMWCCA]

So, you can't listen to two systems on YouTube and tell if one "could" sound good and the other like "would" sound like crap? You can't tell if the frequency response is smooth or riddled with peaks and dips?

I can listen to people's YouTube cell phone recordings of JBL L200s and L300s and still hear the vocal "veil." You can't do that?
Simple answer? No.

To me it either sounds like someone made a bad recording, or they made a good one. Either way the final presentation of a video—badly recorded or good—is that of the system I'm hearing it on.

Would you actually make a purchasing decision for a pair of speakers from a Youtube video? Really?

:wave:

[SEAWOLF97]

.
finding myself agreeing with all Phils posts (in this thread) :blink:

[Ian Mackenzie]

Agreed..., but,

You can still hear smooth vs peak and dips in the frequency response, clarity in the vocals, and an overall balance. (At least I can.) If you can't even get those right, forget about the rest of it. :banghead:

.

Seriously...Lol.

What about the wonky response of the iPhone mic?

[Mr. Widget]

What about the wonky response of the iPhone mic?Even if a professional recording engineer created the recording using state of the art recording equipment and techniques, which is highly unlikely, there is the room/speaker interplay so we still really couldn't know what the speakers sound like in another setting or even another location in the same room, and then there is all the lossy compression of YouTube.

It is cool that so many people can share their enthusiasm for this hobby on that platform, but for any practical use in comparisons or evaluations, I am baffled by the many who find this method of review useful.


Widget

[Robh3606]

What about the wonky response of the iPhone mic?

Hello Ian

I used to use my phone at shows sometimes still do. My android isn't much better. It can sound remarkably good as long as you don't go too loud with simple material. They seem to have built in compression and frequency tailoring or the microphone is just falling apart. It odd stays "clean" but you can hear the frequency balance change and the compression if the levels get too high. So you end up with a recording that is changing with the dynamics. Odd sounding to say the least but the video seems to grab your attention so it not as noticeable as if it was only audio.

Ended up buying a small digital video recorder for making home recordings Zoom Q4N I can drop in my pocket and take to shows. That works great in comparison because you have a true stereo pair of microphones and you can adjust the recording level. Microphones can take 140 dB levels so it stays clean unless you botch the recording level.

Rob:)

[speakerdave]

The really ridiculous part is that there is no certainty the sound heard is created by the system on camera.

Fatuosity, long a key assumption in hi fi promotion, in certain situations has been entertaining me for years.

[toddalin]

Simple answer? No.


:wave:

Then I feel sorry for you. :crying:

I can listen to the JBL "family" of 15"/compression drivers and hear it over a YouTube video.

Are you honestly going to tell me that these systems sound the same? You don't hear the depression in the vocal range and the peak in the upper midrange?

https://youtu.be/luLoNduS9CQ

And you can't compare that to these L200s? Note the difference in response and clarity. But there is still some vocal veil.

https://youtu.be/dSSq98nBJM4

Listen to these Hecos and listen to the clarity of the vocals with no masking. The bass is deep and tight.

https://youtu.be/-FsDBv3EjG8

[Mr. Widget]

The really ridiculous part is that there is absolutely no evidence the sound heard is created by the system on camera.Well, then there is that. :D

Are you suggesting someone might simply replace the mic feed with the direct line level signal? I am shocked! My dad often quoted the truism, "Figures don't lie, but liars can figure".

In this case, I am sure Todd and most other enthusiasts are not doing that, but it wouldn't surprise me if at least some of these demonstrations have done it.


Widget

[toddalin]

The really ridiculous part is that there is absolutely no evidence the sound heard is created by the system on camera.

That's just BS. Maybe for some unscrupulous flippers, but not for the hobbiests in general. In so many cases it is easy to see/hear when someone moves the camera around and the sound changes accordingly.

I encourage any and all to go to this thread and just start listening to the hundreds of entrys on the best you can muster. Look at the systems, and how the recordings were done and you will see/hear the general trends of the various manufacturers' "sonic footprints" characteristic of their wares, assuming that your monitors can provide a fairly flat response.

https://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/show-us-videos-of-your-systems-lets-see-and-hear-it.782592/

[Mr. Widget]

That's just BS. Maybe for some unscrupulous flippers, but not for the hobbiests in general.I would agree. I assume most fellow hobbyists mean well.


I encourage any and all to go to this thread and just start listening to the hundreds of entrys on the best you can muster...Life is too short. I personally never listen to YouTube as the quality is only so-so at best. I listen to CD or better resolution almost exclusively.

Along the lines of what Rob mentioned, when you add a video component our brains are more forgiving of the audio, but listening to a YouTube file without video is not my idea of fun.


Widget

[speakerdave]

That's just BS. Maybe for some unscrupulous flippers, but not for the hobbiests in general. In so many cases it is easy to see/hear when someone moves the camera around and the sound changes accordingly.

I encourage any and all to go to this thread and just start listening to the hundreds of entrys on the best you can muster. Look at the systems, and how the recordings were done and you will see/hear the general trends of the various manufacturers' "sonic footprints" characteristic of their wares, assuming that your monitors can provide a fairly flat response.

You've refuted a claim I didn't make. To say there is no certainty x is not the same as saying there is certainty non-x. I was just trying to show one of the assumptions being made.

I too recall the days when hi fi was a gentleman's game, and in some quarters it may still be.

The problem stands, Todd. For multiple reasons, to set much store by a YouTube video as a means of demonstrating the sound of a particular audio system is irremediably problematical. A verbal description by a reliable reviewer--the gentleman's game-- has more value. Reliability is established by confirmation in person of past opinions.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think Todd might be mistaken for the true agenda behind YouTubing Hifi systems. It’s about making money through follower numbers. Perhaps being in iso is having a effect. Visualisation of how things sound through YouTube addiction is a new emerging industry.

Men’s jewellery might look attractive on YouTube but it’s farcical to accept that all individuals should believe this media vehicle as a means of subjective assessment.

It’s advertising.

Attempting to sway opinion with all sorts of false reasoning that a 6 year old can see through is reminiscent of the fallacious noises coming from Whitehouse.

It’s ridiculous. If you believe that you might well believe anything.

[toddalin]

I can do/have done YouTube recordings on my Nikon D750 of the Mermans, the Super Big Reds, and the L300s and listen to the YouTube recordings on my computer system, and I can hear the elements of the three systems and easily differentiate which is which.

I can hear the peaks the and dips that I hear in the room as well as its ambience. To say that a YouTube recording is totally worthless is just a cop out.

If you can't even record a smooth frequency response, forget about the rest of it. :lol_fit:

I think that "some people" have spent so much on their equipment that they would be embarassed to let the public hear it through a good recording and comment on what they think. I always note that my recordings are done using a CD through an OPPO 95 through a Yamaha RX-Z Receiver with no eq or digital processing.

[Robh3606]

I think that "some people" have spent so much on their equipment that they would be embarassed to let the public hear it through a good recording and comment on what they think. I always note that my recordings are done using a CD through an OPPO 95 through a Yamaha RX-Z Receiver with no eq or digital processing.

Hello Toddalin


I think it's more along the lines of they simply couldn't be bothered and see it as a complete waste of time with little or no point to it. I record live music all the time and as good as some do come out it's not the real thing. It's a recording. To playback music on a system, record it and then listen to it on another system? To many variables!

Are they fun yeah OK but not as a serious way to judge a system you have never heard before.


If you can't even record a smooth frequency response, forget about the rest of it. :lol_fit:

Yeah there is that too. Kinda of the point!

Rob:)

[toddalin]

There are speakers that I will never get to hear, but could get a very good idea of their sound from a well done video.

For example, does the 4343/4345 suffer from the same "vocal veil" as the L200/300s??? :dont-know:

I'm betting it does until someone comes along and demonstrates otherwise. While the midwoofer may help, I am all too familiar with the sound of the exponential horn/tweeter response/interface, and see no reason that those would change. A well done video could demonstrate one way or the other.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I can do/have done YouTube recordings on my Nikon D750 of the Mermans, the Super Big Reds, and the L300s and listen to the YouTube recordings on my computer system, and I can hear the elements of the three systems and easily differentiate which is which.

I can hear the peaks the and dips that I hear in the room as well as its ambience. To say that a YouTube recording is totally worthless is just a cop out.
.[/I]

Are you sure?

I think what you are saying is that you measured and observed what you believe are the peaks and dips of your systems. You then listened and this became your perception.

Playing back the video reminds you of your perceptions.

I very much doubt anyone unfamiliar with your particular loudspeakers or your initial measurements would even remotely notice what was good, bad or otherwise.

[toddalin]

Are you sure?



Yes. But I am a critical listener.

If you went to the tread I linked and listened to the numerous systems, and read the posted comments on the systems, you would find that the better (smoother more articulate) systems will get rave reviews, whereas the lessor systems receive little or no comment. (People typically won't pan a bad system/recording but will just ignore it.)

Everything it taken with a "grain of salt" and you will find who the critical listeners vs the casual listeners are just by listening yourself and reading who posted what.

No one is saying to listen to the entirety of all the videos. Usually you can tell within the first 15 seconds if its even worth listening too.

BTW, back when I worked for the Thomas Organ Company, I could tune an organ by ear once the first note was established.

[Ian Mackenzie]

“This is what l did in iso during covid 19 lockdown”.

I think it’s hysterical.

Go send a copy of one of these video recordings to John Atkinson at Stereophile for his feedback.

[Mr. Widget]

In a world where there are sizable groups of anti-vaxers and climate deniers, I guess it shouldn’t be surprising that there would be a large group of “audiophiles” (the term being used as shorthand for audio/hi-fi/music enthusiasts and not the pejorative many have co-oped) who feel these disparate videos can be useful analytical tools.

I appreciate their function in sharing our love and enthusiasm for the hobby and showcasing individual’s systems in their homes, but as a practical tool? That, I can not agree with.



Widget

[toddalin]

So then, if I make a video of the L300s being switched back and forth to the Mermans, with the volume levels matched using pink noise, none of you think you would note a difference or be able to tell which is smoother? You either need to improve your YouTube monitoring capabilities, or open you mind. :hmm:

[Mr. Widget]

So then, if I make a video of the L300s being switched back and forth to the Mermans, with the volume levels matched using pink noise, none of you think you would note a difference or be able to tell which is smoother? You either need to improve your YouTube monitoring capabilities, or open you mind. :hmm:First, I don’t believe this is what we’ve been discussing.

Second, while if there is a substantial difference between the two speakers and you made the recording with reasonably good quality equipment, we would hear a difference, but it still may not be terribly useful in evaluating the two speakers.


Widget

[toddalin]

First, I don’t believe this is what we’ve been discussing.

Second, while if there is a substantial difference between the two speakers and you made the recording with reasonably good quality equipment, we would hear a difference, but it still may not be terribly useful in evaluating the two speakers.


Widget

This is certainly part what I/we are discussing.

"not terribly useful" is your point of view and does not deny usefulness, only setting limitations on it.

Again, YouTube and a good recording will convey a smooth frequency response, as well as a peaky one, and if you can't get that right, you may as well forget about the rest of it. Obviously, if you listen to YouTube on crumby speakers, everything will sound crumby..., just as if you listen to crumby speakers on your home stereo, it too will sound crumby.

[Mr. Widget]

"not terribly useful" is your point of view and does not deny usefulness, only setting limitations on it.Yes, that is my point of view if we are talking about analyzing the objective performance of a speaker/system/room.

I am not suggesting that people can’t enjoy this type of demonstration, just that IN MY OPINION, it is not particularly useful in telling others what a speaker sounds like.


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

Todd,

If you chose to use a superior measurement system like REW and then took a solid technical and well presented educational discussion and presented it a video might be more appealing in its usefulness. Viewers could then download REW and follow your journey.

But to the astute on lookers you are stretching a very long bow to create a following.