Fave speaker cables for JBL?

[Darren69]

Gents, any faves? I am currently running Mike Lenehans Foilflex with nice results but haven't experimented that much.

[Mr. Widget]

Twisted pair 12ga. works pretty darn well. Not glamorous or expensive, but it does a fine job.


Widget

[SEAWOLF97]

12ga. works great

https://www.amazon.com/500-ft-Landscape-Lighting-CLV-1202-0-500FT/dp/B009YWZWH6

[Mr. Widget]

12ga. works great

https://www.amazon.com/500-ft-Landscape-Lighting-CLV-1202-0-500FT/dp/B009YWZWH6
That one is zip cord. Twisted pair has the theoretical advantage of noise canceling.


Widget

[SEAWOLF97]

That one is zip cord. Twisted pair has the theoretical advantage of noise canceling.


Widget

>> That one is zip cord. YUP

>> Twisted pair has the theoretical advantage of noise canceling.

theoretical sells. , usually for big bux.

Shun Mook still in business selling theory ? YUP. ==>> http://www.shunmook.com/

[Mr. Widget]

>> Twisted pair has the theoretical advantage of noise canceling.

theoretical sells. , usually for big bux.Well... two points:

1. The theory behind noise cancelling is based on pure science not Audiophile mumbo jumbo. (I am not saying that it will make an audible difference in every system, but it does offer a real POSSIBLE benefit.)

2. It doesn't have to be costly. 50' from Monoprice is just over $30. (https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=3844&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyLO2-OiB6QIVaR-tBh0noAIAEAQYASABEgKFbPD_BwE)


Widget

[SEAWOLF97]

Well... two points:

1. The theory behind noise cancelling is based on pure science not Audiophile mumbo jumbo. (I am not saying that it will make an audible difference in every system, but it does offer a real POSSIBLE benefit.)

2. It doesn't have to be costly. 50' from Monoprice is just over $30. (https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=3844&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyLO2-OiB6QIVaR-tBh0noAIAEAQYASABEgKFbPD_BwE)


Widget

I guess we come from different experience and definitions. Twisted pair has a different meaning in the computer world.

from your link.

BEST ANSWER:...

I don't think conductors are intentionally twisted around each other to a spec like Cat 5/6. There is some twist to them inside the jacket. AWG does have a standard of turns per inch, but it appears that's a maximum. The conductors are not bonded inside the jacket either for what it's worth.

[Mr. Widget]

The last time I checked I could no longer hear up into the MHz. :banghead:


Widget

[BMWCCA]

The last time I checked I could no longer hear up into the MHz. :banghead::rotfl:

[Flamingo]

Bill Whitlock is one of the main people behind the science of the problem of the "conduit transformer", and how conductor twist rates can defeat noise in both high-voltage premises wiring and amplified speaker conductors.

Mr. Whitlock's work with Dean Jensen as lead engineer at Jensen Transformers has saved untold grief for those who would reliably and consistently deploy an audio/video system with relative immunity to the environment it must live in. He is unapologetic in his mission to save mere mortals thousands of dollars ill-spent on cables and magic devices to eliminate noise, when they do not. He also designed the most accurate transformers in the world - accurate meaning they will output what is put into them, with high isolation away from various noise and RF. There are other transformers that "color" sound in ways many of us find artistically pleasing, but when it comes to building a neutral platform on which to make sound happen, a good transformer can save you.

https://www.jensen-transformers.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/AES-Ground-Loops-Rest-of-Story-Whitlock-Fox-Generic-Version.pdf

TLDR;

Magnetic induction of noise into cabling needs to hit both hot and neutral (+/-) conductors equally. When this happens, the noise mostly cancels, much like a good impedance balanced line-level circuit. When noise hits the conductors unevenly, the affected conductor carries the noise current along with it.

Conductor pairs carrying current typical to common US 120V service and power amplifiers for speakers do not necessarily need to be shielded.

Noise in premises wiring (especially when in conduit) _can_ be significantly reduced by twisting hot and neutral at equal intervals, while leaving the grounding conductor out of the twist.

Speaker cabling pairs should be twisted about 5 twists per foot. Cable gauge to be used is dependent on current carrying needs and normal equations for voltage drop over distance. Unshielded 12-gauge, 2-conductor cable with a high strand count (for flexibility, not bogus skin effect mumbo jumbo) works fine for almost any normal system.

Parallel zipcord should not be used if at all possible, because of the above-mentioned susceptibility to magnetically inducing noise into one conductor over the other relative to the noise source - the two conductors will never be equally distant to the noise source.

You can "get away with" a lot of bad practices for a long time...until your wife wants to add dimmers to the living room lights, or the kid buys a groovy but cheapo tri-color LED strip light from Amazon and sticks it to the wall on the other side of your listening room.

Anyway, black and white spools of 12GA THHN and a drill motor can make wonderful speaker cable. Alternately, Whirlwind (and a couple others) has commissioned Belden to make a flexible black PVC jacketed 12-2 with a consistent twist rate. This may have higher WAF and for sure is easier to manipulate. Then I can spend the money saved on the truly hard to find driver I'm jonsing after :)

There you go, probably way more than you wanted to know :)

[Flamingo]

I guess we come from different experience and definitions. Twisted pair has a different meaning in the computer world.

from your link.

BEST ANSWER:...

I don't think conductors are intentionally twisted around each other to a spec like Cat 5/6. There is some twist to them inside the jacket. AWG does have a standard of turns per inch, but it appears that's a maximum. The conductors are not bonded inside the jacket either for what it's worth.

I've often used Belden bonded-pair category cable for a stereo unbalanced 3.5mm wall jack input 200-250' feet away from the system rack, using a Jensen input transformer to feed a balanced DSP input. The twisting of the pairs is what makes the difference. The transformer wasn't even necessary on some jobs, but became standard practice for us after one project that had a high power AM radio transmitter antennae across the road.

[Chas]

I like the grey coloured Canare cables. Easy to work with, high quality and very flexible. Nicely compatible with Speakon connectors too.

[brutal]

Bill Whitlock is one of the main people behind the science of the problem of the "conduit transformer", and how conductor twist rates can defeat noise in both high-voltage premises wiring and amplified speaker conductors.

Mr. Whitlock's work with Dean Jensen as lead engineer at Jensen Transformers has saved untold grief for those who would reliably and consistently deploy an audio/video system with relative immunity to the environment it must live in. He is unapologetic in his mission to save mere mortals thousands of dollars ill-spent on cables and magic devices to eliminate noise, when they do not. He also designed the most accurate transformers in the world - accurate meaning they will output what is put into them, with high isolation away from various noise and RF. There are other transformers that "color" sound in ways many of us find artistically pleasing, but when it comes to building a neutral platform on which to make sound happen, a good transformer can save you.

https://www.jensen-transformers.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/AES-Ground-Loops-Rest-of-Story-Whitlock-Fox-Generic-Version.pdf

TLDR;

Magnetic induction of noise into cabling needs to hit both hot and neutral (+/-) conductors equally. When this happens, the noise mostly cancels, much like a good impedance balanced line-level circuit. When noise hits the conductors unevenly, the affected conductor carries the noise current along with it.

Conductor pairs carrying current typical to common US 120V service and power amplifiers for speakers do not necessarily need to be shielded.

Noise in premises wiring (especially when in conduit) _can_ be significantly reduced by twisting hot and neutral at equal intervals, while leaving the grounding conductor out of the twist.

Speaker cabling pairs should be twisted about 5 twists per foot. Cable gauge to be used is dependent on current carrying needs and normal equations for voltage drop over distance. Unshielded 12-gauge, 2-conductor cable with a high strand count (for flexibility, not bogus skin effect mumbo jumbo) works fine for almost any normal system.

Parallel zipcord should not be used if at all possible, because of the above-mentioned susceptibility to magnetically inducing noise into one conductor over the other relative to the noise source - the two conductors will never be equally distant to the noise source.

You can "get away with" a lot of bad practices for a long time...until your wife wants to add dimmers to the living room lights, or the kid buys a groovy but cheapo tri-color LED strip light from Amazon and sticks it to the wall on the other side of your listening room.

Anyway, black and white spools of 12GA THHN and a drill motor can make wonderful speaker cable. Alternately, Whirlwind (and a couple others) has commissioned Belden to make a flexible black PVC jacketed 12-2 with a consistent twist rate. This may have higher WAF and for sure is easier to manipulate. Then I can spend the money saved on the truly hard to find driver I'm jonsing after :)

There you go, probably way more than you wanted to know :)


Does this explain why the DIY White Lightning cables sound good?

[Flamingo]

Does this explain why the DIY White Lightning cables sound good?
Lol...Basically, yes :)

The twist rate is semi-random in extension cords, based on what day they were assembled and the quality of the PVC jacket that keeps whatever twist rate in place. You know how some cables just seem to twist funny from the minute you open the package? That's mostly the inner conductors moving around in the outer jacket. Besides being a pain to work with, those probably will have more random than not twist rate.

Also, the third conductor in an extension cord must be used or it can become an unintentional antenna. It's also unnecessary bulk to have that conductor for a two-conductor circuit.

Between the above, and getting a known good twist rate, I just get the Whirlwind/Belden 12-2 when the cable doesn't have to be in conduit and needs to be coiled neatly on stage. They also make the stiffer gray-jacket CL2 wire for conduit runs (much easier to pull).

BTW, I have broken the twisting "rule" many times. Most of my four-conductor Speakon cables are of a decent twist rate, but they are all four conductors twisted together, not each pair twisted separately. Just good Belden or Carol 12-4 SOOW or SJOOW. You will see one of these in the Shearer Horn thread when I finally get to posting more pictures there (I just got my GPA replacement diaphragm for the 288-8G, and no time to install it yet).

[BMWCCA]

Also, the third conductor in an extension cord must be used or it can become an unintentional antenna. It's also unnecessary bulk to have that conductor for a two-conductor circuit.Sometimes that bulk can be advantageous. In my case, the 6Moons extension-cord fits these Neutrik dual-bananas perfectly:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=42820&stc=1&d=1258163589

[SEAWOLF97]

Just good Belden or Carol 12-4 SOOW or SJOOW. .

That Carol is what I'm using on the under the floor runs on the 250ti's. They are 25 & 30 feet ... the wife grabbed a 100 ft. bundle in the thrift store and they wanted $2 for it, brand new.
I liked the extra thick jacket as the crawl space instillation was my goal. They sound great to me and have had compliments on the total sound, so would not hesitate to use it in the future. :)

[Flamingo]

Well I hope all of us rednecks and our extension cords haven't scared off the OP.

Still there Darren69 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?23169-Darren69)?

[macaroonie]

I'm a fan of Van Damme tour grade OFC cables. No affiliation.

[brutal]

Sometimes that bulk can be advantageous. In my case, the 6Moons extension-cord fits these Neutrik dual-bananas perfectly:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=42820&stc=1&d=1258163589

I have a bunch of those on yardcord as well.

I did just order 100' of that monoprice 12-2 as I need some spare cable and the free shipping for the $4 XLR cables I had in my cart was a bonus. :D

[RMC]

Hi Flamingo,

RE Post # 10

I've abstained from posting more here on the twisted pair cable issue since I don't want to steal the OP's thread, plus I agree with you mentioning "Well I hope all of us rednecks and our extension cords haven't scared off the OP. Still there Darren69? "

But I'm posting in my own BGW Amp thread, to avoid any issues, a reply to yours (see you there). Regards,

Richard

[sguttag]

Twisted cable absolutely has significantly higher noise immunity than parallel or worse, non-bonded cable (e.g. plain THHN wire in a conduit). It is so easy to experiment and prove it to oneself. Not only will the twist keep outside "noise" out (RF, nearby AC lines...etc.) it will also keep its neighbor out (e.g. Left impressing its signal onto Right). The longer the parallel run the more induction a straight cable will pick up.

I've worked in the cinema industry my whole career (40 years now). It was (and I'm sure is) common to use simple THHN wires in the conduit to get audio from the booth to the screen speakers. That was fine in the days of mono. But once stereo came in (where we have three speakers behind the screen), using just THHN, you WILL get crosstalk between channels if you use just straight THHN. To make matters worse, when some theatres were "twinned" in the '70s, they kept the original conduit runs and put both theatres speaker wires in the same pipe and merely "T" to each screen at the screen end (the booth was the same). Now you get crosstalk between theatres!

I've had surround speakers pick up CB radios if the array was on an outside wall.

So, if you want noise immunity, twisted speaker wire is your friend. With a twist, any inductive noise will most likely go across both conductors which will give you a high common-mode-rejection-ratio (CMRR). If you want to really step it up, you can go for a 4-conductor, twisted cable and wire opposite conductors in a "star-quad" configuration. I've never done it for speakers but some have but have done it on very low-level stuff like for the lines from magnetic playback heads to their preamps.

The outer jacket does NOT keep the twists together. You can even buy non-jacketed twisted pair, believe it or not.

http://store.nexternal.com/westpenn/nj210-p3801.aspx

Any good twisted wire will have a uniform twist rate (twists per inch in USA speak) and the wire manufacturer should list it.

One can certainly make their own twisted cable out of individual conductors (again something like THHN stranded) but DON'T USE A DRILL. Yeah, it is the easy way but part of what you are doing then is increasing the twisting of the individual conductor too. You want to keep the individual conductors in their original twist and merely interlock the conductors about each other. It is tough to describe in textual form but picture drawing a line on each conductor with a sharpie before you start. When you are done, that line should still be a line on each conductor facing the same direction...if that line starts to twist, then you've added twist to the conductor, which is wrong and potentially harmful.

A proper twisted cable has a "lay" and when done properly, it does not want to coil up like a spring (which always happens when people use drills).

High strand count mostly helps with flexibility and connections. The higher the strand count, the more flexible the cable will likely be (the outer jacket plays a roll in this too). It also helps with the connection. If you have a solid conductor and go to insert that into a typical speaker terminal, you really just have two contact points. As the strand count goes up, the wire can "mush" (it's a technical term ;-)) out and provide more contact area over the entire terminal (including crimps, banana plugs...etc.) so there is value there. Don't worry about the "skin effect" as we are talking about audio frequencies here.

Do what you want but there are some physical facts when it comes to speaker cabling that no manufacturer can hand-wave and get around and some of these are easy enough to experiment with to prove to oneself.

[SEAWOLF97]

Thread: Exposing the Speaker Wire myth

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?22658-Exposing-the-Speaker-Wire-myth