Vari intense concert horns

[Skelt]

Wondering if anyone here has experience with these massive horns?

Tell me about them. What size room are they in. What do you use for the bottom end. What tweeters do you use?

A horn lover for sometime and normally found on the klipsch board , some has come up for sale locally and I am intrigued.

I would try to intergrate them into my garage system that consists of a pair of klipsch mwm singles and kp301s version 2. Likely these horns will replace the top cabs and use a dbx driverack pa+ to sort the signals.
TIA.

[RMC]

Hi Skelt,

Sorry for the delay in replying to you as I'm pretty busy these days, but took a little break to give you some of what I have about these interesting horns since nobody has helped you yet. I don't own the horns so can't provide you with actual user info, but I have some background info about these which may help you decide.

The Vari-intense horn was designed by Engineer David Gunness of Electro-Voice late 80's. An EV design but first released by Altec! The connection here is that Altec, EV, Gauss, etc. all belonged to Mark IV Audio for a while, and exchanged some of their ideas, designs, technologies, etc. Later EV released its own versions of the horn's design with the Variplex name. And they still have, as I recall, Vari-intense indoor speakers.

I think I have more info about the Vari-intense/Variplex horns but I'd need to dig in my stuff to see...

Hopefully the following will give you some insight into those clever devices. Regards,

Richard

See docs:

David Gunness, in Wikipedia, see EV section of it, specially paragraph starting with "In 1989,..."

Altec Vari-intense horn, data sheet, Pdf

EV Cinema Systems-Variplex, Data Sheet, Pdf, see top right plus Description section

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[grumpy]

might also have a look at similarly inspired JBL 4660a and Everest 55000 (home) re intended use and implementations.

http://www.cieri.net/temp/everest_dd55000_-_white_paper.pdf

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?17691-Everest-DD55000&p=178621&viewfull=1#post178621

[RMC]

RE "might also have a look at similarly inspired JBL 4660a..."

Yup, agreed.

RE "And they still have, as I recall, Vari-intense indoor speakers"

Pdf below shows EV's version similar to the 4660

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[sguttag]

I still use the EVI-28 in cinema applications (for surrounds) when I have very wide (or perhaps very long) cinemas or balconies to avoid deafening people near the speaker while getting good coverage across the room. The Varintense horn (and how the LF shading is done too) allows for the even coverage...including with low ceiling heights.

[RMC]

Hi Sguttag,

Nice to hear such feedback from an actual user. This ain't over yet...

RE "I think I have more info about the Vari-intense/Variplex horns but I'd need to dig in my stuff to see..."

I did look into my paper audio files last night and found some more Vari-intense horn material. :) Coming shortly...

Richard

[RMC]

This is a 3-part post re Vari-intense speakers

First pic Altec add in Systems Contractor News Magazine, Aug. 1997

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[RMC]

Altec Vari-intense Brochure (partly pictured)

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[RMC]

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[Flamingo]

We've installed a few of the EV versions of the Vari-Intense, and replaced several others. The trim height matters (the higher the better until you get out of critical distance) to the smoothness of the transition between the horn zones. They also lose SPL and directivity at the sides really fast if trying to cover more area than the horn is designed for, but that's true of any horn.

You can actively cross them over / biamp them and get the 12" or 15" to act like a good mid-bass unit, but it will never do much below 60 Hz with any authority - at least in my experience. The two installations we replaced those were trying to get way more LF than a 250-watt continuous system should be asked to do, though. This was in an 800-person auditorium approximately 120' wide by 100' deep. The one place an EVI-12 seemed to be okay was a little 200-seat rectangular Baptist church, 60' deep and 40' across. Good for spoken word, but that was it. We kept the EVI-12 for center channel and added other EV boxes for Left and Right, with a Danley sub - they wanted to have a decent movie night system :)

I think of all the manufacturers who have attempted to get SPL-shading right, Tom Danley/Doug Jones have done the best work with their point-source boxes. To hear a Genesis or Jericho system's consistent SPL and frequency coverage _at distance_ is truly an experience.

I am a fan of Mr. Gunness, however, and have run a lot of his EAW NT-series boxes over the years. He continues to do innovative work with Fulcrum Acoustic.

My .02

[RMC]

Hi Flamingo,

Thanks for your input here, interesting.

The sound reinforcement business has changed a lot over the years speaker wise, mostly because the cost of Watts has gone down dramatically. Large manufacturers have moved away from mamoth size cabs of yesterday. They were generally replaced by smaller & lighter ones, more agile, configurable, arrayable, etc. That's the new norm with flexibility being written all over the the place, also more precise sound and horn pattern control. Better? Worst? Matter of opinion and application I guess, including a touch of nostalgia too.

RE "but it will never do much below 60 Hz with any authority - at least in my experience."

I agree. By analogy, a few years ago I did a short survey of common musician PA/SR boxes (e.g. 12"+ horn or 15"+ horn types; not the Rolling Stones' type PA), from EV, JBL, Peavey, and not surprisingly when one knows how LF works, I can't remember one that had an F3 at 50 hz or lower. The vast majority had F3/F6 at 65 hz, some 60 hz, others a little more or could be rated F10.

Playing with LF response amplitude is the trick to give the impression of fake low bass, though VLF bandwidth is simply not there. Engineers know that going lower is just too penalizing re box size vs efficiency required to fit in the market with the competition. Want lower bass fine, then you have to give up on some efficiency or box size or a mix of both. There's no way out, laws of physics apply to everyone...

On the other hand, to be fair, one can't really compare Danley premium speakers with such as the Vari-intense speakers shown here. Danley is in another class and price point also.

RE "with a Danley sub"

Use of Danley sub confirms the new normal isn't the same as it used to be in the past. From the old days I don't recall seeing sound reinforcement boxes like, say JBL 4550 or 4560, being used with subs in a long throw setup. Doesn't mean some people didn't do it, but simply that it wasn't the norm or usual practice at the time. Today is a different ball game with smaller cabs that are designed with the subwoofer option in mind, the customer paying for lower bass addition. Proof of that is many manufacturers do offer subs in their various speaker lineups so the user can get the bass that isn't in the full-range unit.

BTW must be nostalgia that makes me look at your massive Shearer W-horn project, probably not its size, weight or practical aspect though, I sure don't have space that matches yours... Regards,

Richard

[Flamingo]

Hi Richard,

Thanks for the reply. It is so, so true that none of us breaks God's laws of physics :) For living room levels and acoustics, we can port our boxes to give us satisfying LF from 12" boxes, but a different story when SPL needs get higher.

The Vari-Intense had _just_ enough LF extension to get you down into bass territory, but they do leave room for a subwoofer to fill out the bottom end. The Danley in the little Baptist church example was one of their babies, a CS30 (hidden behind the piano in the picture below). They had some talented acoustic musicians with an electric Fender P-Bass, and it allowed them to fill it out without killing the front rows with an amp. It also gave them an LFE for movie playback (they were a venue host for an annual local film festival). That's also why they have the stereo EV ZX3 boxes up on the wall, set up in an LCR arrangement with the EVI-15 as a center. Crossing it over at 75-ish Hz let the 15" woofer give some directivity without pushing it

Notice the up-tilt in the EVI-15 - this was necessary to get coverage of the farther seats due to the relatively low ceiling height. This was also one of those times I trusted my EASE model for the ZX3 placement at essentially no down tilt, and it worked without hot-spots in the middle rows I would have had if I tilted down (as was my intuition). The reflections off the side walls were mitigated surprisingly well with the various quilts they always had hung. The durned projector was in the EVI-15 horn path, however, but the interference was constrained mainly to the center aisle. The balancing of conflicting interests is always a challenge!

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[Flamingo]

And it is also so true how expectations have changed. When this project was first installed (not by us) the EVI-12 with the additional cobbled on 12" LF was considered "adequate" (even though the box wasn't designed for the wide shallow room, and the rigging was sketchy).

When we first looked at it, the high school students had maxed out the LF on every channel of the mixer in an attempt to get more out of the system, driving it into distortion pretty much constantly. Due to a generous donation, this was replaced with a nice Danley LCR system with three pair of SM60F with a singe TH-212 subwoofer under the main cluster. First event with the new system was their production of "Phantom of the Opera", and the synth-organ was much more convincing :)

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[Flamingo]

Since I'm new here, I should probably say I'm not really a Danley snob, though they make a great speaker for a lot of different applications. I've worked with most of the well-known brands over the years, and have favorites in each line. I use Danley a lot because they require so little processing and amplifier power, which translates into cost savings that my budget-conscious clients need.

Having attended a number of Syn-Aud-Con classes and having my mind blown by people so willing to share their knowledge, I've learned the correct answer to most questions is,"It Depends." :)

[1audiohack]

Ivan’s signature line. And true it is.

Barry.

[Flamingo]

Ivan’s signature line. And true it is.

Barry.

Hi Barry - Is Mr. Beaver on this forum,too?

[1audiohack]

I have never seen him or any of them over here. I have met Ivan but don’t know him at all. Doug however is an age old friend of mine.

I am glad you are here. You have lots of interesting stuff.

Barry.

[RMC]

Found another Altec smaller size Vari-intense speaker in my papers. Cab looks similar to EV's S 200 LF unit. However, the Altec version is both Duplex and Vari-intense CD horn.

A couple of Altec Duplex ceiling speakers are also shown.

Finally, a pic of Altec's 4024A DSP. That processor was designed with Duplex Loudspeaker Systems in mind.

The processor, as well as the DTS-200 shown here, announce for an upcoming post, a whole bunch of Altec DTS Series, Duplex or not, sound reinforcement speakers. Those may be their last SR lineup offering before Altec disappeared forever... Some could be in the Altec Library here (e.g. 9864, 9894), while others are not.

Richard

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[Flamingo]

I have never seen him or any of them over here. I have met Ivan but don’t know him at all. Doug however is an age old friend of mine.

I am glad you are here. You have lots of interesting stuff.

Barry.

Thanks for the welcome, Barry. I've never met Professor Jones, but have read a great many of his articles and dealer communications. He must be a real kick to be around!

Most of my interactions with Danley have been through Mike Hedden, Joel Moak, and seeing Ivan and Tom post on the SAC (Syn-Aud-Con) forum. Following some of those discussions is the proverbial drink from the Stanley Spadowski firehose!

Brad

[Flamingo]

Found another Altec smaller size Vari-intense speaker in my papers. Cab looks similar to EV's S 200 LF unit. However, the Altec version is both Duplex and Vari-intense CD horn.

A couple of Altec Duplex ceiling speakers are also shown.

Finally, a pic of Altec's 4024A DSP. That processor was designed with Duplex Loudspeaker Systems in mind.

The processor, as well as the DTS-200 shown here, announce for an upcoming post, a whole bunch of Altec DTS Series, Duplex or not, sound reinforcement speakers. Those may be their last SR lineup offering before Altec disappeared forever... Some could be in the Altec Library here (e.g. 9864, 9894), while others are not.

Richard

Good find! I knew about the coax can speakers, but not the one in the same Sx-series cabinet. The Altec duplex drivers in that would have sounded far smoother!

[RMC]

While on Altec Lansing subject I take the opportunity to show other SR systems from their DTS Series, like the DTS-200 shown in my previous post. They're not necessarily Vari-intense loaded, and don't seem to hear much about them in LH Forum.

1rst pic Altec ad in Systems Contractor News Magazine with some indications of target market

2nd & 3rd pics from the DTS Series Brochure

4th pic is the clearest one I have showing inside the bass horn up to Duplex woofer

Others on the way...

Richard

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[RMC]

This time the 9864A/9894A. These being sort of "flagship" models in the series

They're pretty much the same except for HF horn coverage pattern

Note the use of versions of Altec's 515 and 299 drivers at bottom left of spec sheet

Also the bass horn with reflex porting extends LF to 50hz not really lower than that. As seen inside spec sheet the low range response shape is similar to say JBL 2220 in 4550 or 4560 boxes

Others coming...

Richard

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[RMC]

DTS Spec Sheets on-hand for the larger systems

Then Data sheets I have for the smaller ones

Note on third pic the Petal-shaped horn on the DTS-99

One more pic to come

Richard

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[RMC]

Picture of the 1995 full-line Altec Lansing catalog I have. Could be the last one Altec made as far as I know. Seen in the Altec library here the 1993 catalog, then on to the 1996 new products, but nothing full-line catalog appears in between those two years. Had a quick look at the 1996 and it seems limited to new models only. A number of the latest models were mentioned here, e.g. with the list of data sheets for the smaller boxes, also with the last pic re petal-shaped horn.

AMEN

Richard

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