Projects in Rummelland

[rogerjulien]

Hello folks, old members, veterans, experts and specalists,
my name, as the nick may tell, is Roger.
I've been reading in this forum for years, registered quiet new and this is my first post. (hurra)

Thx to all giving information and knowledge to everybody, sharing the thoughts, defeats, failures and secrets, gathered in the search for good listening to reproduced music.
Great accomplishment to you.

I'm building boxes and planting speakers in those for years.
It happend to come that some speakers in those boxes are JBL
and this fact made me finally end up here.
There are some questions I will place later, hoping for answers and further support.

If your asking yourself about Rummelland, its a german saying for a messie place/land were a lot of stuff is in progress or delay, to keep it in a friendly term. (There is an hidden information in the last sentence that may hopefully explaine my wrong writting and odd appering humor.)



My first question is:
how do I get the order of posts in a thread turned that the first on page one
is not the latest answer and the last page the first question?
Its a pain in the brain when your reading trough it all, getting the language and
the said state itself but the context is weired in total. Took me some time to realize.
Pls help me out of this. Thx

[Mr. Widget]

Welcome aboard!

Go here: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_faq#faq_vb3_board_usage

Click on the highlighted link in this image.


Widget
.

[rogerjulien]

Thanks for the information and guide, now I got it in a good working order for me.

Trying to get you a picture of my loudspeaker, its probably to big.
Its a 2241 reconed to 2245H in the back behind the curtain closed box 250liter.
A 2202 with a Fostex FD600 at the 2344 and a Cabasse TW5 as a tweeter on top in the front boxes.
Tried some different drivers like 2426 at the horn and the 2402 and 2405 as tweeters
but I prefer the others better.
Its partly aktiv, the bass got a seperate amp like the front wich got an oldstyle X-over.
X-over bass to front is done by dsp, also the room alingment for the bass and delay to front.
Hope you enjoy.

sry for two pics, coudnt delete the secend

85751

[Mr. Widget]

Very cool! Do you have a photo with the Cabasse tweeter installed.


Widget

[rogerjulien]

Its the one on top in the middle.
Cabasse pro is great stuff.

Also had a diy ribbon instead of the 2344 but the beam in horizontal is nothing for a livingroom. The clearity was amazing, maybe gonna try the ribbon on the two pieced 2344 or get later back to do some experiments with it. Or build a smaller one for SHT.

[Mr. Widget]

Its the one on top in the middle.
Cabasse pro is great stuff.The way it is placed there at an oblique angle I assumed it was disconnected.


Widget

[rogerjulien]

Hello,


does somebody know if the JBL 2202 was mounted in another loudspeaker than the 4350/55?
Did anybody run it deeper than the 290Hz of the 4355? Use it in another enclosure?
Who else is using it in a diy setup?

Just mounted some new Subs and those new ones dont want to play to high.

I could just press and bend the 2202 to were I need it while its on dsp
but I want to understand or see how and why.

150 - 200 Hz is my target x-over.


Thanks

[FE3T]

Not to be Critical.
But i hope 2241 was a typo, and you ment to Write 2240 reconed to a 2245.

[jbl4ever]

Used in the 4512 in the same bandwidth you are looking for. Not much info though on this model

[rogerjulien]

@FE3T: Your right, its meant to say "2240 to 2245". Thanks for the correct input.

@JBL4ever: Thanks you, I never knew about the 4512.

But looking at that design I'd rather go with a sealed enclosure.
Right now its about 45-50 liters like the housing in the 4355.
That turns out to a Qtc of 0,3 and a f-3 of 270Hz.
If I get it in 10-15 liters there will be Qtc 0,5 and f-3 225Hz.

That is far less volume with little encrease, is it worth it? Any suggestions?

The JBL 2206 might look better for the target x-over but I got the 2202 and like it.

[FE3T]

@FE3T: Your right, its meant to say "2240 to 2245". Thanks for the correct input.

Good to know, i was a bit worried that you actually had installed a C8R2245 cone kit in a 2241 basket
Wich migth actually be possible, but would render the completed driver useless for any purpose. :)

[Mr. Widget]

To answer your original question, you can use the 2202 down to 150 Hz if you give it enough digital encouragement. This will likely limit your maximum SPL… But that is pretty high already so unless you’re a real power freak you should be OK.


Widget

[rogerjulien]

Thanks for help.

I will give the 2202 both, a lowshelf and a smaller housing.
X-over is now at 170Hz.
Even when playing loud it seems no problem, the cone isnt moving that much.

[gibber]

Welcome to this forum Roger !

Did you try 2123’s or 2012’s for mid also?

Your Cabasse tweeter looks a bit like a Yamaha JA-42xx bullet tweeter in that picture.
What is the Cabasse model #? — would like to look up some details

[rogerjulien]

Hello,


never heard the 2123,
had the 2012 in a backloaded horn with a diy ribbon on top.
Mad a decent bass all through the neighborhood,
played house and lounge music for the folks around.
Tryied the 2012 in closed box later, keeping that driver in the shelf.

The Cabasse is a TW5, disconnected at the time.
Got some new subs and the balance of sound changed.
Cabasse is some serious stuff.


gimme a call if you feel like

[rogerjulien]

Hello again,


finally I got my hands on some Radian 1225-16 so I grabbed the 2426 and changed the dias,
mounted them to the 2344 and made some measurement.
Enough nice being said about the Radian dias, so I found a nasty peak just below 4k.
My question here is could that be related to the back chamber?
Comparing to the Fostex FD600 the damping is placed different.
Right on the back cover the JBL and on the dia mount by the Fostex.
Any suggestions? Can that peak be solved by damping?
Would like to know before heading for a R-C link. Get the basic right at first.
Also looked for xovers but that seems a stoney field to dig.
The l-pads of the 4430 were just a bit to much to look at, is there a simple solution known?

thanks in credit Roger

[rogerjulien]

Hello today,


I found the issue for the peak in messurement of the 2426 with the Radian dias,
The adjustment was incorrect. The other driver didnt have that peak
so I keept searching, adjusted the one dia a little bit better and the peak is gone.
I call that a win, problem solved.
Sounds nice!

The 2202 got a smaller doghouse and a highshelf with the dsp at the lower end.
But taking the subs a bit to high, 160Hz, gives that sonor sound to voices in the lowend that I like.


For future projects I am collecting some driver in the shelf.
Got some stuff to build a 43XX monitor, not sure wich one.
44 or 45 but while having the 2245 my only 15" is a K140 ready to be reconed.
If I do it right the outcome will be a 2231a and not the 2235 needed for the 4344,
wich monitor used the 2231a and wich components do I need for that one?

Right now I'm waiting for some dustcaps to finish a 2122 recone what would lead to the 4345.
Giving me the next question, wich one will feed my favour of sound.
Is there a simple xover without lpads and charged C to get an idea? Those lpads get me puzzled.
Had a messurment on the 2425 with the 2307 and was amased by the flat response.
Gonna build a quick and dirty assemble to arrange the three driver to the upper end.
Bass will be a front loaded Phonogen horn driven by a 2012h.
2122h in the front with the 2425/2307 and the 2405 in a simple frame on top.
Just for the fun and because its there. Need xover on that, would spare me a lot of work.

So if anybody could help with that I will put some pics up sone. ;) Thx

[rogerjulien]

Hello again,

awaiting some JBL 2251J to come.
Planing to put them together with a 2450 on a 2380 in a pseudo de'appolito.
planned xover is 150 to 200 for the 10" to the bass and about 700 to the horn.

Has anyone yet tried the 2251 in a closed cabinet or the 2380 with de'appolito?
Any tipps and tricks about this?

thx in advance

[rogerjulien]

Hello,

Trying to give a short summary about some speakerstuff that happend since last year.

Last notice was the JBL2251 in de'appolito with the 2380 and 2450.
Well I build that one but somehow I didn't like it that much.
Maybe I missed the last steps in development to make it better.
Anyhow, disassambeld and stored away.
Have a picture.

89932


While that project didn't last very long I tried something different.
The parts seemed to apear one by one just right in time.
JBL E145 for the low mids, BMS 4594 for the EV HR9040 that horn itself
and an additional 2404 Tweeter were all on the shelfs of some friends, elfes so to say.
Even the enclosure was given to me by the company I work for.
Just some 40 x 60mm wood for stiffening, screws and of we go.

Take a look.

89933

[Mr. Widget]

That something different looks pretty serious! How do they sound?


Widget

[rogerjulien]

Hello Widget,

The summe of some great components doesn't automatically turn out to be a great result.
Most of us know that in one or the other way, nothing new here.

That said you might allready guess I'm not done by now to my own satisfaction.

There are two Cabasse 55nds 22" Subs in a sealed enclosure (-3fs at 44 Hz, the rest is roogain 6m - 30Hz by 11m - 17Hz)
for real bass behind the curtain, seen in some picture before.
Those are set and only to be replaced by 4 of em if I get my hands on some.

The JBL E145 are only used for mid and upper bass, they got a sealed enclosure of 44 liter each,
what will give them fast response from about 100Hz up.
So the box under the horn got round about 100 liter, pretty slim and close to the wall. Xover here is at 90Hz.
I love those drivers for what they are and the crispy sound.
The lag of bass is compensated with the subs mentioned above.
Might be a bit overdone but there is always something to complain about.

The EV HR9040 is a really nice looking unit imho. Glossy, shiny and a joy to look at.
Heard them before in some other setup and found nothing bad.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/_hb/48537443941/in/album-72157710311019592/
Glorious days back in the monestary.
They were painted black in the picture but I removed the spraypaint and got them back to white.
The driver on there back is a BMS 4594 wich gives those horns a pretty flat output.
The BMS is only used for midrange without the tweeter.
Dont like that inside tweeter and an additional tweeter, the 2404 set at the front is obviesly doing a much better job.
In the picture it's another one but you may have noticed the JBL in the background.
The BMS midrange works up to 6,3k where it drops down by itself, thats where the 2404 sets in.
Nothing bad there I might guess. Thoug some say the BMS is crap. I'll count your votes about that statement.

All this stuff is driven by lots of power. 1250 watts in total per side. 500+500+250.
Not completely aktiv, got only three amps per side so the tweeter is passivly added on top.
All the signal is devided by a minidsp, 2x8 if I remember right.


Back to the missing satisfaction and information in the text.
The horn starts to load at 350Hz and there will be the problem of my shere will and the physics I'm trying to ignore.
To say it elsewise, where are your experience and advise to set the crossover?
Anybody please who is familiar with this horn.
Some voices sound honky, if I try to peak down some frequency by equelizer the honk is gone but the clarity as well.
Thougt already about mounting another driver.
Tryed the EV DH1AMT but havn't been so happy and can't push myself yet to buy the 2451 and give it a try.
There are some old aluminium dias for the EV DH1, maybe they are better in this application.
Would have some dias for the 2451 as well.
Lots of ways to work on, get lost, spend time.
Spending time on this is not so bad though.
There is some punch in these speakers, some drive to give you a kind of stupid smile.
Bathing in the sound of music.



For those who have that question in mind.
My wife is forcing me to get them out of the room. I will have to for xmas. Unfortunatelly.
But they will be back.

[Mr. Widget]

The summe of some great components doesn't automatically turn out to be a great result.I know that only too well!


For those who have that question in mind.
My wife is forcing me to get them out of the room.…and I repeat myself.

What is your crossover frequency between the EV horn and midbass drivers?


Widget

[rogerjulien]

The x-over between midbass 15" and EV horn is 444Hz.

[Mr. Widget]

The x-over between midbass 15" and EV horn is 444Hz.Have you tried bumping it up to 600-700Hz? That might help with the nasal quality you mentioned.


Widget

[rogerjulien]

Thats a high xover for a horn that big, the mouth is more than half squaremeter.
Or do you mean just to isolate the honky sound?

[Mr. Widget]

Thats a high xover for a horn that big, the mouth is more than half squaremeter.
Or do you mean just to isolate the honky sound?I have not used that horn, but I have used quite a few and as a general rule have found they sound best when crossed over 1-1.5 octaves above their cut off frequency.

Most manufacturers rate their horns at half an octave above their cut off frequency… So doubling the frequency that they are specified for often works well.


Widget

[rogerjulien]

Yes you are right Mr.Widget, thats a common rule for horns.
Your input is much apprichiated. ManyThx.

Just to state myself:

The horn starts to load at 350Hz and there will be the problem of my shere will and the physics I'm trying to ignore.
Having a horn that big I'm trying to push the lowest possible xover out of it.
I raised the xover slightly above 500Hz and choose steeper filter, 48dB.
Raised the E145 in volume and at least it sounds different. (I will say better)

Will have to start some measurements to do it correct.