Integrated-amps underated for L300 ?

[Dr.db]

A friend is looking for a currently available integrated-amp to drive a pair of L300.

The L300 is rated at 150watt continuously. I´ve been told to use an amp with at least 3db headroom, so we are talking 300watt.
But most integrated amps have just around 150wpc or even less.
For example Luxmann L509, Accuphase E480, Yamaha A-S3000 and so on... These are the biggest integrated-amps available of these brands, are these really short in power?
My friend strictly asks for an integrated amp, he doesn`t want a pre-amp and power-amp setup.

Actually I´m a little confused that all these heavy and expensive integrated-amps might not have enough power :blink:
Are these just for smaller speakers like bookshelf types?

Best regards,
Olaf

[grumpy]

-very- loud bass -might- let you remain in the room with 300w peaks, but it would be uncomfortable unless outside or in a very large room. So, I would not see 150w as a real-life L300 limitation. Ability to control back emf from a large powerful woofer, however, may offer a clue as to why some lesser, perhaps less conservatively spec’d amps (integrated or not) might fare less well than a more robust unit. I would expect the units proposed would be fine, as they are intended as statement pieces from well regarded manufacturers (at least their higher end offerings). Integrated amps and receivers have often made compromises for cost and size (including exaggerated or watered-down specs)... removing those constraints -should- produce a very competitive product vs separates.


A friend is looking for a currently available integrated-amp to drive a pair of L300.

The L300 is rated at 150watt continuously. I´ve been told to use an amp with at least 3db headroom, so we are talking 300watt.
But most integrated amps have just around 150wpc or even less.
For example Luxmann L509, Accuphase E480, Yamaha A-S3000 and so on... These are the biggest integrated-amps available of these brands, are these really short in power?
My friend strictly asks for an integrated amp, he doesn`t want a pre-amp and power-amp setup.

Actually I´m a little confused that all these heavy and expensive integrated-amps might not have enough power :blink:
Are these just for smaller speakers like bookshelf types?

Best regards,
Olaf

[Mr. Widget]

If possible maybe your friend can try before he buys?

As Grumpy said, from a sheer SPL standpoint, 150 watts is plenty, but... I used an 80 watt amp with the 96dB sensitive DD66000s and it did not sound nearly as controlled as the 400 wpc Parasound Halo JC-1s I stepped up to. I doubt I ever used more than 10-15 watts on those speakers when I drove them crazy loud, but having the massive dual mono power supplies made a difference, or at least contributed to a big difference.


Widget

[Dr.db]

Thanks for your helpful answers! :)

His room is fairly large, it´s aprox. 60m².
The bass is raised by 2-3db, which demands for additional power.

He´s not an spl-addict that drives his speakers at maximum all the time, but every now and then he asks them for live levels. I think it´s not a weak bass control he is concerned about, he is rather worried to fry his tweeters and mids due to possible clipping.

It would be great to try these out before buying, but he´s looking for a used unit and that could be difficult.

[RMC]

Hi Olaf,

You may also want to look at NAD integrated amps. My older model has 6 db power headroom for musical peaks and a soft clipping feature. Regards,

Richard

[SEAWOLF97]

An integrated amp is just basically a receiver without the radio section.

Why not enlarge the search to include them ?

[Mr. Widget]

He´s not an spl-addict that drives his speakers at maximum all the time, but every now and then he asks them for live levels. I think it´s not a weak bass control he is concerned about, he is rather worried to fry his tweeters and mids due to possible clipping.If he is a listener, the likelihood of frying a HF unit due to clipping is low as the sound quality is generally unpleasant prior to failure... that said, I did once blow a transformer in an electrostatic panel while playing NIN at maximum volume and the distortion content of the music itself masked the system’s distress.

Typically you you are more likely to destroy a HF element by clipping a 20-30 watt amp than one that is 100-200 watts.


Widget

[grumpy]

Perhaps a unit with training wheels (clipping indicators), or better yet, suggest going biamp so the bass amp (overdriven or not) can’t wreak havoc on the more sensitive drivers... use the integrated for the MF/HF.

I read the “strictly integrated” part, but perhaps the listening requirements and damage concerns may override the initial request (?)

[Dr.db]

Thanks a lot for your response!

@Richard: The current available NAD C375 has about 2db Headroom if I´m not mistaken. I believe it is a great amp for it´s little money, but the other mentioned amps seem to have a beefier power supply.

@Widget: Actually we thought that clipping could fry the tweeters even before really noticing too much distortion. We weren´t aware about the threshold being big enough.

@Grumpy: Your idea is a good one, but unfortunatelly it remains "strictly integrated"...


I had suggested MCintosh integrated amps as these are available even with 300wpc or more. But he doesn´t like the look of them...

[rusty jefferson]

If he doesn't like the look of the McIntosh but doesn't mind spending the money, there's the Pass INT 250. That would do it.

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/pass-labs-int-250-integrated-amplifier/

It or the McIntosh MA9000 seems like overkill for a pair of L300s to me, but.....:)

[Mr. Widget]

It or the McIntosh MA9000 seems like overkill for a pair of L300s to me, but.....:)Well, there’s that. ;)


Widget

[SEAWOLF97]

I'm a semi-firm believer that "gear of an era" (with many exceptions) generally plays best together.

JBL knew what was available in amplification when they designed those L-300's. They didn't config them for future gear. 300wpc just wasn't much available back then.

A modern amp MAY make the Summits a bit better, but they will never (exceptions again) be better than they were ..new. That modern amps main positive is that it may be more reliable and may have a warranty (if new)

It's just as if you restore a '65 Mustang (or 2002tii - for Phil) to absolute brand new condition ...the best is will be is still a '65 Mustang or 2002tii ...

wow, I need a second cup of coffee ...:crying:

[Dr.db]

@Rusty: The pass amp would be great, but unfortunatelly it is too expensive. The Mcintosh amps are expensive as well, but they are plenty on the used market.

@Seawolf: I get your idea, but he is looking for a reliable amp that is no more than aprox. 5 years old. I have owned many vintage amps and preamps, but I have lost interest in them. I had all of them restored from a well known professional. But it never took more than a year and some kind of problem turned up again.

[rusty jefferson]

@Rusty: The pass amp would be great, but unfortunatelly it is too expensive. The Mcintosh amps are expensive as well, but they are plenty on the used market.........
Here's a used Pass at a dealer who may be flexible. Interestingly, the previous owner traded in on separates. No affiliation.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9h5eh-pass-labs-int-250-integrated-amp-solid-state

Seriously though, I think any recently designed/built 150 watt per channel integrated would be all anyone might need to work well with L300s. If he couldn't spend top dollar, I'd probably purchase a Parasound Halo integrated. I like their products.
https://www.parasound.com/hint.php

[Dr.db]

Thanks rusty, but we are located in germany ;)

[toddalin]

If possible maybe your friend can try before he buys?

As Grumpy said, from a sheer SPL standpoint, 150 watts is plenty, but... I used an 80 watt amp with the 96dB sensitive DD66000s and it did not sound nearly as controlled as the 400 wpc Parasound Halo JC-1s I stepped up to. I doubt I ever used more than 10-15 watts on those speakers when I drove them crazy loud, but having the massive dual mono power supplies made a difference, or at least contributed to a big difference.


Widget

Could this come down to damping factor?

[SEAWOLF97]

Could this come down to damping factor?

very good suggestion ... an often overlooked spec.

[Mr. Widget]

Could this come down to damping factor?Maybe, but I doubt it is that simple.


Widget

[Robh3606]

Maybe, but I doubt it is that simple.

Yeah I have had similar experiences the separate stand alone amps seem to do a better job!?

Not sure why?

Rob:)

[rusty jefferson]

It's likely all the newish integrated amps mentioned have low output impedance and good damping factors. I'd speculate if they aren't able to keep up with their separates brethren it's about compromises made to the power supplies because of space considerations. I'd be surprised if any (except maybe the Pass and McIntosh) have dual mono supplies as robust and with similar sized transformers and as much capacitance as stand alone amplifiers.

[jbl4ever]

Hello Dr db, I listen to this unit about 3months ago at someones house. A little sleeper from your neck of the woods Germany. It is a great unit and sounds very smooth with plenty of power. Try to find a dealer in your area and give it a listen. It reminds me a little like Dan's work from Krell. It is called BMC C2S. Found one listed at audiogon Hope this helps on the search

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9hg2g-bmc-balanced-musical-concepts-cs2-integrated-amp-solid-state