Project Widget

[Mr. Widget]

For those that know about this personal project that has dragged on for just short of forever, you may want to go right to the photos, but for those unfamiliar with my project, I’ll cover the project from initial concept to the present day.

In late 2004 a buddy of mine bought a pair of Classic Audio T1 speakers (see photo 1). He liked them but thought they could be better. He asked me if I had any ideas on how to improve them. At about this time I was also involved in the ill fated Project May speakers for Don McRitchie. (Another long and winding tale… one that perhaps will be unraveled and told someday.) In any event, during the process, I was exposed to the phenomenal JBL 1500AL woofers. My buddy suggested we try the TAD TD-4003/TH-4003 which were a step up from the Classic Audio’s TAD TD-4001/TH4001 clone.

I was game, so I mocked them up in some test boxes and audio magic happened. My buddy directed the aesthetics and we came up with the design in photo 2. I set about building them with ribs and laying up pre-kerfed MDF.

[Mr. Widget]

I built the cabinets and we began listening to them. (If only these projects could go as quickly as writing about them!) In any event after a significant amount of effort, they were built and we began critically listening to the prototypes. For some reason the bass wasn’t as clear and articulate as it had been in the test boxes. I performed a number of tests and determined that the cabinets had an internal resonance that was affecting the performance. I found the resonance by examining the impedance sweep of the woofer in the cabinet and while making a number of modifications to the bass boxes, I was able to isolate it to our satisfaction.

After some soul searching, I decided to take another stab at the design and I offered up the unfinished cabinets on the forum. Member Wardsweb jumped in and took them. He worked out the resonance issue and finished up the speakers magnificently. See his thread: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?10692

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[Mr. Widget]

I literally went back to the drawing board. At this point, my buddy who was driving the project and most importantly, funding it, suggested that we use a woofer with a bit deeper bass capability and he thought that the addition of a 10” driver might be a good addition as the transfer from a 15” woofer to the lightning fast TD-4003 wasn’t quite what he was hoping for. I had a number of extra Sub1500s from that Parts Express close out that many of us took advantage of. I ordered a pair of TAD TL-1102 woofers. They are remarkably snappy and have extremely low distortion. They proved to fit the bill quite nicely!

The driver compliment became JBL Sub1500, TAD TL-1102, TAD TD-4003, TAD ET-703. The cabinet design remained exactly the same externally, but now we CNC’d slabs of MDF and used MDF/Baltic Birch laminated flat sections with birch laminated 2 X 4 internal bracing. The horns are a cast mineral filled urethane from molds I made from an original TH-4003. I experimented with several resins and even played around at mimicking the AFAST port that TAD used in their laminated maple horns. Ultimately, I found the horns performed better without the AFAST port when using the extremely hard and dense urethane compound that I landed on. The TL-1102 woofers are in 1.4 cu ft enclosures with rear facing tuned ports. The Sub1500s are in 2.5 cu ft enclosures that are sealed.

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[Mr. Widget]

These photos of the raw MDF speakers are of the original prototypes as they were in 2006. After auditioning them we felt we had a winner, so a second pair of these were created and finished in Birdseye maple with black leather for the front baffle. My buddy who has owned dozens and dozens of speakers from virtually every major High End manufacturer and a number of exotic small builders (like the Widgets) had previously had a track record of losing interest in his speakers every few months. I delivered his in early 2007. Shockingly he hasn’t replaced them in over 12 years… I must say that as I was sweating over the details of his speakers I had little hope of them still being in use as his primary system several years later. For him to still love them for over a decade, is both deeply satisfying and shocking.


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[Mr. Widget]

8490684907

[Mr. Widget]

In 2007, I also moved from my workshop and loft in SF to a more traditional and much smaller home. I initially set up my prototype Project Widgets in the living room but due to their size (mostly their depth) and a room mode which caused a narrow Q peak at 72Hz, I could never get them to sound as good as they did in the loft or they do at my buddy’s house. (I discovered the room mode some years later with better room analyzing software when I was optimizing my Everests.) I put the TAD and JBL drivers in storage and kept the empty enclosures in my garage for the next decade or so. Moving forward to last summer, I bought a new house and was told by “she who must be obeyed” that the JBL E2s that had found their way into my previous home would not be making the move. Somehow she accepted the Project Widgets as long as they were "properly" finished. After getting mostly moved in and my workshop somewhat set up, I got back onto the project.

[Mr. Widget]

I found some very nice looking California Claro Walnut veneer. It was accepted by the home’s “design director and artifact curator.” I was told that grilles must be installed over those round things, and I agreed to the terms. I sunk ¾” neodymium magnets into the baffle board and veneered over them with a pre-dyed black veneer from Oakwood.

I still need to finish the speaker grilles for them, but otherwise they are now once again fully functioning. The preamp and sources are in the Living Room, and the crossovers and amps are directly behind them in the guest bedroom closet. (photo of rack)

For the geeks like me who care about such things, the signal path is:

Analog – Vintage Luxman turntable, Jelco tonearm, Lyra cartridge, John Curl Vendetta pre/pre.
Digital – Blusound Node 2i/Roon - Bryston BDA 2

Mark Levinson No 326S, balanced out to Pass Labs XVR-1.
Pass Labs XVR-1 low pass below 75Hz 18dB/octave - balanced out to Ashly Protea SP3.6, balanced out to JBL MPA600.
Pass Labs XVR-1 high pass above 75Hz 18dB/octave – 750 Hz – balanced out to a pair of Parasound JC-1s
Pass Labs XVR-1 high pass above 750Hz 18dB/octave – unbalanced out to Pass Labs XA25
I also have a simple passive 18 dB/octave crossover between the TD-4003 and the ET-703. I am using Jantzen Superior Z Caps and Jantzen coils.

With this configuration, I can’t perform proper time alignment, but I can add the needed DSP correction on the Sub1500 and make any needed corrections for room influence below 75Hz. I have had the system running for a few days now. I expect to continue to tinker around the edges, but it is essentially there. Since my new room sounds pretty good without any correction, I haven’t yet spent any time analyzing the room’s impact on the system. One thing for sure, this room is inherently much better than my last living room and the new system is living up to the rather high expectations I had.

The room is 16’ wide, by 24.5’ long with an open beamed ceiling that is 8’ at the sides and 12’ at the peak. The room is not over stuffed, but there are carpets, and lots of miscellaneous decorative items to break up the sound.

I am sitting in my living room, listening to them as I type this and I must say, I am feeling like a pig in… not that it wasn’t a heck of a lot of work to get here! That is probably more than any of you ever wanted to know, but for those who have asked over the years… that is the tale of the Project Widget speakers.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

And now here they are in the house!


Widget

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[Odd]

Thanks for sharing the project.

Very nice.

[JoeNelis]

Wow Widget !! they look awesome personal speaker projects are very special to me. I admire people who do these projects. The personal time effort and money is a labour of love to have something that's ideal for someone's personal taste is very satisfying. Congrats on a great job.

[macaroonie]

Very tidy job there Widget. Congrats on pulling it off so well > M

[Earl K]

Great Project Widget!

I love the look!

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=84931&stc=1&d=1567396816

:)

[srm51555]

They look great and nice story on them as well.

[rusty jefferson]

Snap! Very nicely done. Those look (and I'm confident sound) great!

[withTarragon]

What a stunning project. Your craftsmanship and attention to detail is remarkable. Enjoy them!:applaud:

[RedCoat23]

What a journey! They look absolutely fabulous. I can only imagine how they sound. Congratulations on a job well done.

[Mitchco]

I can't imagine how good they sound and look in person! Top-shelf man. Congrats.

[martin_wu99]

Perfect!

[Mr. Widget]

Thanks everyone for the compliments!

Sitting here listening to them does make the hours and hours of sweating the details seem worth it. Now there is only the memory of the smell of the Claro Walnut dust as I sanded it and seeing the first glow of the wood as I applied the first coats of Watco oil.


Widget

[MoD]

Outstanding work! Impressive.

Feeling when you make something and that matches expectations, priceless.

That is very vise construction, I bet sound is big and dynamic. And bass.. is much smarter solution then some big bass horn. :applaud:

[cooky1257]

They look lovely, beautifully proportioned.

[Malefoda]

I'm so jealous!
Terrific, thanks for sharing.

[Robh3606]

As always great work!

Rob:)

[tjm001]

Awesome!

[toddalin]

They look very nice. Is there any way that we can hear a video? Do you have some recording method of quality?

[engineerjoe]

They look very nice. Is there any way that we can hear a video? Do you have some recording method of quality?

I wish I too could hear them in person. They look great from here and I can imagine the clarity possible.
All these posts are making me think about making a new home system for the family room! Until then, I am just jealous.
84935

[DavidF]

Wonderful execution, Widget. The units look large but the tapering makes an illusion of smaller enclosures. Must be very nice to sit back and realize how those man-hours paid off.

Did you source the veneer locally? Lost my go-to wood supplier in the South Bay some years back.

[Mr. Widget]

They look very nice. Is there any way that we can hear a video? Do you have some recording method of quality?:rotfl:

While I think on-line speaker videos are pretty much pointless exercises, I also don't have any equipment that can do that.

Now, that said, if you are in the area visiting, shoot me a PM and I'll try to give you a private demo.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

Wonderful execution, Widget. The units look large but the tapering makes an illusion of smaller enclosures. Must be very nice to sit back and realize how those man-hours paid off.

Did you source the veneer locally? Lost my go-to wood supplier in the South Bay some years back.Thanks... man-years is more like it! :D

Actually, while the veneer is from a Californian tree, I purchased it from Oakwood Veneer in Michigan. They are extremely helpful. I exchanged numerous emails and reviewed photos of several sheets before I picked the ones I used.


Widget

[Fitero]

I truly admire your expertise and how you've so perfectly executed the work on those beautiful speakers.

[toddalin]

:rotfl:

While I think on-line speaker videos are pretty much pointless exercises, I also don't have any equipment that can do that.

Now, that said, if you are in the area visiting, shoot me a PM and I'll try to give you a private demo.


Widget


Thanks for the invitation.

[Mr. Widget]

Thanks for the invitation.Road trip!

Napa Valley is near by and is beautiful in September/October. Come on up.


Widget

[hlaari]

very nice build, I really like the look of the veneer:applaud:
I am curious, what is the port tuning of the enclosure for the Tl-1102?





Ari

[macaroonie]

Road trip!

Napa Valley is near by and is beautiful in September/October. Come on up.


Widget

Silverado Trail is brilliant , did it on a bicycle from Napa and back stopping at in no particular order Sutter Home , Krug , Mumms , Mondavi. Fond memories.

[richluvsound]

They look stunning Widget ..... I'm glad you kept the parts .

best , Richard

[bubbleboy76]

I love this. Thanks for sharing.

[Chas]

Widget, absolutely stunning! And, many thanks for a trip down memory lane. I still remember listening to the previous incarnation at your home in Alameda years ago.

i very happy to hear you are finally enjoying the fruits of many years of labor.

[tjm001]

Thanks... man-years is more like it! :D

Actually, while the veneer is from a Californian tree, I purchased it from Oakwood Veneer in Michigan. They are extremely helpful. I exchanged numerous emails and reviewed photos of several sheets before I picked the ones I used.


Widget

Just a note in agreement about Oakwood Veneer in Michigan. I too had great experience in dealing with them when I built my L300 clones a few years ago.

[reconed]

Wow beautiful job! I imagine those have a huge sound with the Sub1500s. Enjoy!

[Dr.db]

Thanks a lot for sharing your awesome project!
Stunning craftmanship as allways! :)

It´s very interesting to see a 4-way speaker using a 10"-midwoofer differently to what JBL used to do.
The classical JBL-monitors used their 10" in closed boxes from ~300hz up. You´re using a 10" in a vented box from 75hz up. What made you go this route?
Is it because your 15" is more like a sub than like a woofer and not capable of going up to 300hz?

[Mr. Widget]

very nice build, I really like the look of the veneer:applaud:
I am curious, what is the port tuning of the enclosure for the Tl-1102?Unfortunately I don't remember. I did all the design work over a decade ago! If I fire up CLIO, I'll measure it for you. I believe I tuned it at around 40Hz.


Thanks a lot for sharing your awesome project!
Stunning craftmanship as allways! :)

It´s very interesting to see a 4-way speaker using a 10"-midwoofer differently to what JBL used to do.
The classical JBL-monitors used their 10" in closed boxes from ~300hz up. You´re using a 10" in a vented box from 75hz up. What made you go this route?
Is it because your 15" is more like a sub than like a woofer and not capable of going up to 300hz?If I could have lived with a larger cabinet I think I would have used the 1500AL as the bass driver and then I could have moved the crossover point up a bit higher. As it was, to keep the enclosure size to a more manageable size... it is obviously still not a small speaker, using the Sub1500 and the TAD 10" driver in the revised woofer enclosure was a tight fit, but using a 1500AL would have taken all the volume I had for the pair of woofers. The 1500AL when properly tuned and digitally goosed will give you pretty prodigious and subjectively very good sounding VLF performance and would possibly be a step up over the Sub1500, but as is always the case... speaker design is a game of juggling the compromises!

That said, the Sub1500 in these sealed enclosures with a bit of digital encouragement is giving me 30Hz flat, -3dB at about 28Hz and a 12dB octave roll off below that. Accurately measuring the -10dB point in a real room is pretty tough, but I seem to be at around 20Hz +/- 5Hz so the low end is pretty deep for a music system. We regularly install HT systems with deeper and more powerful bottom ends, but they also tend to have subjectively fatter bottom ends with more group delay than the Sub1500 in a fairly compact sealed box provides.

...and thanks again to everyone for the compliments.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

I have recently taken level measurements of the various drivers to get them within 0.1dB between the left and right channels. After doing that and listening a bit more critically, I made my first tweak. I changed the low pass on the Sub1500 to a 4th order slope to keep more of it's output out of the way of the TL-1102. The TL-1102's high pass is still third order.

The difference is subtle, but subjectively I think I prefer the sound quality of this configuration.


Widget

[JuniorJBL]

WOW Widget!! :applaud:

I have, over the years wondered what happened to these cabinets. I remember the thread of you building them, and then, as happens to a lot of us, life comes and changes our direction and we forget some of the things in the past. Not by choice, just life's directions, decisions and compromises.

The story was excellent, and I for one appreciate you sharing this tale with the forum! :)

The project is beautiful and worthy of praise! Your attention to detail is superb! I do hope that the "Interior Design Director" is pleased with the fruits of your labor!

Please do post the grills when you have mastered them as well!

Congrats and Cheers! :cheers:

Shane

[hlaari]

Unfortunately I don't remember. I did all the design work over a decade ago! If I fire up CLIO, I'll measure it for you. I believe I tuned it at around 40Hz.

If I could have lived with a larger cabinet I think I would have used the 1500AL as the bass driver and then I could have moved the crossover point up a bit higher. As it was, to keep the enclosure size to a more manageable size... it is obviously still not a small speaker, using the Sub1500 and the TAD 10" driver in the revised woofer enclosure was a tight fit, but using a 1500AL would have taken all the volume I had for the pair of woofers. The 1500AL when properly tuned and digitally goosed will give you pretty prodigious and subjectively very good sounding VLF performance and would possibly be a step up over the Sub1500, but as is always the case... speaker design is a game of juggling the compromises!

That said, the Sub1500 in these sealed enclosures with a bit of digital encouragement is giving me 30Hz flat, -3dB at about 28Hz and a 12dB octave roll off below that. Accurately measuring the -10dB point in a real room is pretty tough, but I seem to be at around 20Hz +/- 5Hz so the low end is pretty deep for a music system. We regularly install HT systems with deeper and more powerful bottom ends, but they also tend to have subjectively fatter bottom ends with more group delay than the Sub1500 in a fairly compact sealed box provides.

...and thanks again to everyone for the compliments.


Widget

TL-1102 is definitely a great midbass/midrange woofer, I have try dual 251J in 2 cu.ft enclosure with port tuning around 60Hz crossed between 70Hz - 1200Hz, and they work great

1500Al, 1501Al-1 need a lot bigger volume than W1500H/Sub1500. I think at they will perform great with volume around 150 - 160 liters like JBL use in the older big 4-way monitors tuned around 28 - 30Hz. used up to 300Hz with some good 10" 2122h, 2123h or 2251J between the 15" and the compression driver/horn.



Ari

[Dr.db]

Thanks a lot for that backround information! :)

[Dr.db]

You are using the TAD 703 tweeter, I suppose the vertical dispersion is as narrow as the JBL 2405? If so, it should be as close as possible to the ear level e.g. the listening hight...
Where about is your ear level on this speaker?
In the center of the midhorn or somewhere between the midhorn and tweeter?

[Mr. Widget]

You are using the TAD 703 tweeter, I suppose the vertical dispersion is as narrow as the JBL 2405? If so, it should be as close as possible to the ear level e.g. the listening hight...
Where about is your ear level on this speaker?
In the center of the midhorn or somewhere between the midhorn and tweeter?Your assumption is correct. I sit in a fairly low "lounge" style chair that puts my ears between the two horns.

Placing the measurement mic right at my ear height there is a slight roll off at the tweeter, one that I could compensate for by adjusting the padding on the mid driver, but I haven't felt the need. (The tweeter covers 12KHz and up.)


Widget

[pos]

That particular tweeter is not a diffraction slot like the 2405, and albeit it shows a major pattern flit in the <10kHz range, it is not the case anymore above 10kHz where it gets both H and V directivity control.
When used above 10kHz and if a larger H than V directivity is wanted, the ET703 should be used with the horn placed horizontally.

Here are some measurements with the horn placed horizontally:

horizontal 0/22/45
85053

vertical 0/22/45
85054


Another set of measurements at 0/30 H/30 V, and a comparison with the 2405:

ET703, horn placed horizontally
85055

2405H, slot placed vertically
85056

[Mr. Widget]

Thanks POS, very interesting measurements. Honestly I can't remember how far I got into the analysis of the ET-703 when I dreamed these up back in the mid 2000s. I remember running basic impedance and FR plots to help determine the crossover, but beyond that, I'm not sure.

It seems there is not a lot of difference between the horizontal or vertical performance through a 45° arc, but when you move out to a 90° arc the horizontal orientation will give you a wider spread and better performance. I wonder with my now 60 year old ears that roll off significantly above 15KHz if I would notice? :banghead: Interestingly, in the Living Voice VOX Olympian, they mount theirs at a 45° angle... sort of splitting the difference.

In my application and in my friend's system with the same speakers, we have the speakers toed in so we are dead on axis of the speakers and we have placed them in rooms with somewhat delayed and diffused early reflections. These conditions are no doubt important since following the research done by Floyd Toole and others at Harman, the polars and power response for the Project Widgets are likely not stellar... yet, somehow they sound great and image well. (Imaging is a bit better than the Everests and not as good as the Array 1400s or the M2s.)


Widget

[Dr.db]

Thanks a lot both of you!!

The TAD-703 seems to be much less beamy vertically and widgets ear-level is fairly low. So no problem at all.

But if someone would use a 2405 tweeter in a similar diy-speaker, where about is the best hight for the ear-level?
Right between the midhorn and the tweeter?

[JeffW]

Thanks for the graphs, POS, I'm sure glad Widget sold me a pair back before the prices went crazy :crying: