Big Reds!

[toddalin]

Picking up a pair of what appear to be Big Reds coming out of a local studio tomorrow if the deal doesn't flake. Fingers are crossed. Was not impressed with the last pair I heard, but the deal is too good to pass on.

EDIT: I should have said Super Big Reds!

http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/Big_Reds1.jpg

[grumpy]

Nice! Hope the deal works out. 604E based?

[toddalin]

I believe so. The "Super" is the addition of the Jensen 15" you see. If they are Super Big Reds, they have the modified Mastering Labs crossovers. But even bi-amped they are well worth the asking price.

The guy who was supposed to get them flaked today, called 2-1/2 hr late, and still wanted them. The seller asked if I was 100% sure that I wanted them and would I go another $100 for the pair? I said yes, and we are on track to pick them up tomorrow.

Even if not my cup of tea, I can't pass these up at $600/pr (was $500/pr). :p

Let's do a listening party at my house!!! Lot's to see and hear.

http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/Big_Reds_2.jpg
http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/Big_Reds_3.jpg

[grumpy]

Indeed, nice price, regardless. Would be fun to hear them! (as well as your current mains) :)

[Earl K]

Hopefully you get them Todd.

It'll be fun to play around with them.

I only know of a single pair here in the GTA, ( I spent some quality time with them back in the 80's > they were owned by a local production house at the time ).

:)

[toddalin]

I went over to get them this morning. We went to a large industrial warehouse where they make aerospace washers and shims. It was raining pretty good!


I asked for the guy, they paged him, and he took me upstairs..., and there they were in all their imposing glory (~20 cu ft each!) There was other stuff..., lots of it! This was a personal studio with the full NEVE mixing board, tons of amps and processors, guitars, basses, speakers, amps, keyboards, Moog Taurus, etc. ,etc., etc.


He said the studio was for their own personnal use and was not commercial! He said the band was Wishbone (not Wishbone Ash), and I think this may be them:


https://youtu.be/ezid1Q_Qz0g


In the other stuff I saw a Marantz DC-170. I have the matching tuner (with the scope) so said I would be interested. He is supposed to send me a listing of what he has.


At this point it was raining like a MOFO. These things were huge (would probably fit one at a time but...) so I asked if he could deliver them for $60 when the weather clears. He said if he can schedule the truck this will happen, probably this weekend. No money has changed hands, but we have a verbal and handshake.


The cabinets were set up for tri-amping, but passive crossovers are also included as are all the cables and banana plugs. They look like the Mastering Labs crossovers, but did not say Mastering Labs on them. I thought they may have had a vinyl covering on the cabinets, but my friend said they looked like solid wood. They do have black grills (5' tall x 2' wide). Hey for $660 delivered (assuming it happens), I can't complain.

[toddalin]

Here we go!

https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/mat/d/disassembling-complete/6732680636.html

[toddalin]

He sent me the list of other stuff he has and asked for directions for delivery. If anyone wants any of this (Marantz(#49) is spoken for), let me know and I'll get a price. If you are local, you can handle it yourself.

- [ ] 1: HALFER - DH 200 power amp

- [ ] 2: JBL - SR 6615 power amp

- [ ] 3: Fender - 2235 power amp

- [ ] 4: Samson - SERVO - 240 stereo amp

- [ ] 5: TDM - model 24-CX-4 2 way stereo quad

- [ ] 6: QSC -mid amp

- [ ] 7: QSC - mid amp

- [ ] 8: NEOTEK - Power supply

- [x] 9: LEXICON - 224x Digital reverb

- [ ] 10: QSC RMX 2450 power amp

- [x] 11: EQUI=TECH - power amp

- [ ] 12: CREST - P-3500 Power amp

- [ ] 13: FURMAN - PL Plus power conditioner

- [ ] 14: FURMAN - PL Plus power conditioner

- [ ] 15: AKAI - rhythm machine MPC 3000

- [ ] 16: FURMAN - PL Plus power conditioner

- [ ] 17: FURMAN - PL Plus power conditioner

- [ ] 18:ANTARES - ATR-1 auto tune intonation processor

- [ ] 19: BERRINGER - multi-gate pro
XR4400

- [x] 20:UREI - LA-22 Compressor

- [ ] 21: BBE - Sonic maximizer -822A

- [ ] 22: Yamaha - XPX 90 II

- [x] 23: LEXICON - PCM 70 Digital effects processor

- [ ] 24: Symetrix - expander/gate DUCKER 522

- [ ] 25: RANE - HC6 headphone console

- [x] 26: UREI - LA-4 Compressor/limiter

- [x] 27: UREI - peak limiter 1176 LN

- [ ] 28: DBX - 160X Compressor/limiter

- [ ] 29: DBX - 160 XT Compressor/limiter

- [ ] 30: DBX- PROJECT 1 Compressor/gate 266

- [ ] 31: DBX- 166 gain reduction compressor

- [ ] 32: LAYLA - event echo

- [ ] 33: ROLAND - SUPER JV 64 voice synthesizer module

- [ ] 34: Sennheiser - stereo transmitter

- [ ] 35: Sennheiser - true diversity receiver

- [ ] 36: MIDI K.I.T.I. - KAT intelligent trigger

- [ ] 37: COAXIAL loudspeaker crossover

- [ ] 38: ALEXSIS - ADAT TYPE II
38A - ALEXSIS - controller

- [ ] 39: ALEXSIS- ADAT TYPE II

- [ ] 40: WIREMOLD - plug-In outlet center 6 plug

- [ ] 41: TEAC- AG 43020 audio/video surround receiver

- [ ] 42: SANYO - stereo cassette deck

- [ ] 43: E MAGIC - UNITOR 8 patch bay

- [ ] 44: DOD - R-231 graphic equalizer

- [ ] 45: SCAMP - AUDIO & DESIGN RECORDING- eight F 300 Rack mount expander gates

- [ ] 46: SCAMP - Rack power supply with two DE-ESS Equalizers

- [ ] 47: WIREMOLD - plug-In outlet center 6 plug

- [ ] 48: WIREMOLD - plug-In outlet center 6 plug

- [ ] 49: MARANTZ - 170 DC rack mount powers stereo amp

- [ ] 50: RUSSOUND - 55-6 speaker patch-bay

- [ ] 51: high frequency equalizer network 16 ohms

- [ ] 52: High frequency equalizer network 16 ohms

- [ ] 53: ALTEC 9440A 800 WATT AMP

- [ ] 54: NSI NDR 8000 programmable dimmer pack

- [ ] 55: CREST - 3501 Power amp


- [ ] 56: FURMAN - PB-40 20 channel patch bay

- [ ] 57: SAMSON - SR22 wireless rack-mount

- [ ] 58: ALEXIS - QUADRAVERB

- [ ] 59: SAMSON- SUPER ID RX-39

- [ ] 60: MU-TRON BI-PHASE

- [ ] 61: Sennheiser - EW 100 True diversity receiver

- [ ] 62: SHURE - L4 wireless receiver

[toddalin]

Yeah they're BIG!!! I gave the guy $100 for the delivery (rather than $60). He had to "borrow" one of the workers and company truck and the boss wasn't all too happy about it. These had to come down from a second story loft by forklift.

http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_00026.JPG
http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_00038.JPG

Looking at the "crossovers" they seem a bit of a mystery. They have an input and a high frequency output, and level controls for mids and highs as well as an HF contour switch, but no place to connect the lower frequencies. I assume/hope when I open one, it will become clear. I typically see these mounted to the cabinet so maybe the connections are internal. Does anyone have any experience with these?

http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_00045.JPG

The speakers were mounted in recesses and the grills fit the recesses, not the speakers. They would need to be cut down.
http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_00054.JPG

In 1979 I bought a Marantz tuner for a friend who had one of their integrateds. He paid me back at the time and last year asked if I wanted the tuner back. He gave the rest (including JBL L100s he bought at my suggestion at the time) to his gardner. I said send it to me and I'll pay the shipping. It is their high end tuner with the internal O-scope. This is the matching amp. Now I just need the preamp.

http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_00064.JPG

[Drugolf]

Awesome! Now get that darn plastic off of them and let's see them!

[Earl K]

Luvin the big sky-scope!

What is it?

:)

[Earl K]

http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_00045.JPG

Todd,

Most likely the system is designed to be biamped with the HF amp feeding what's seen in the pic ( for tonal shaping ).

FWIW, I do the exact same thing.

:)

[toddalin]

http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_00045.JPG

Todd,

Most likely the system is designed to be biamped with the HF amp feeding what's seen in the pic ( for tonal shaping ).

FWIW, I do the exact same thing.

:)

Why would there be both a mid an high L-pad if this is just to "shape the highs? Do they mean the lower (mid) and upper (high) portion of the "shaped" high frequency going to the horn? Guess that makes sense. Then this would be after the HF portion of a biamp set-up and would not be fed from the mains?

[toddalin]

Luvin the big sky-scope!

What is it?

:)

Vintage 8-1/4" Criterion Schmidt Cassigrain.

[toddalin]

http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_00045.JPG

Todd,

Most likely the system is designed to be biamped with the HF amp feeding what's seen in the pic ( for tonal shaping ).

FWIW, I do the exact same thing.

:)

I assume that you are using an electronic crossover. What crossover frequency are you using (1,500 Hz?). Do your speakers include the auxiliary Jensens and if so, where do you cross these over?

I had only seen these using the Mastering Labs passive networks.

Thanks

https://images.reverb.com/image/upload/s--Sb6sj4VP--/a_exif,c_limit,e_unsharp_mask:80,f_auto,fl_progres sive,g_south,h_620,q_90,w_620/v1504013411/pnzz0xuefccpptwmnmqr.jpg
https://images.reverb.com/image/upload/s--4S0fXP_r--/a_exif,c_limit,e_unsharp_mask:80,f_auto,fl_progres sive,g_south,h_620,q_90,w_620/v1504013410/harjzbgr5c5smbpwgztx.jpg


http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/Big_Reds1.jpghttp://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?attachments/604-003-jpg.996754/

[Earl K]

Todd,

Sorry my wording was ambiguous, but no, I don't own any Super Big Reds ( though I had weeky access to a pair back in the 80's ).

Yes, 1500hz is a reasonable crossover point.

I see the seller also has a TDM 244 ? unit for sale.
- That's a reasonable electronic crossover for this duty ( it's a variable 2-way with 24db LR slopes x 4 > if it's the same type I used to own ).
- It would be worth snagging if the price is right ( as would any number of those QSC or Crest > even the Altec amp ).

:)

[toddalin]

Todd,

Sorry my wording was ambiguous, but no, I don't own any Super Big Reds ( though I had weeky access to a pair back in the 80's ).

Yes, 1500hz is a reasonable crossover point.

I see the seller also has a TDM 244 ? unit for sale.
- That's a reasonable electronic crossover for this duty ( it's a variable 2-way with 24db LR slopes x 4 > if it's the same type I used to own ).
- It would be worth snagging if the price is right ( as would any number of those QSC or Crest > even the Altec amp ).

:)

Thanks Earl.

I informed the seller that the two units that he gave me (actually #51 and #52) are not crossovers, but HF contour units. He lists #37 and I emailed him and told him that I thought that it was for use with these speakers. He leaves town on Tuesday and said I could come pick it up on Monday.

37: COAXIAL loudspeaker crossover

51: high frequency equalizer network 16 ohms

52: High frequency equalizer network 16 ohms

My email:

What is #37, the coaxial loudspeaker crossover? What are #51 and #52, the 16 ohm HF eq networks?

His response:

I’m afraid I already sold number 51 and 52… And number 37 is basically an in-line equalizer I think… It has the options of switching the HZ as well.

[toddalin]

Todd,

Sorry my wording was ambiguous, but no, I don't own any Super Big Reds ( though I had weeky access to a pair back in the 80's ).

Yes, 1500hz is a reasonable crossover point.

I see the seller also has a TDM 244 ? unit for sale.
- That's a reasonable electronic crossover for this duty ( it's a variable 2-way with 24db LR slopes x 4 > if it's the same type I used to own ).
- It would be worth snagging if the price is right ( as would any number of those QSC or Crest > even the Altec amp ).

:)

I know that he wants $425 for the Altec amp, but could probably get it a bit cheaper if he still has it.

[toddalin]

Todd,

Sorry my wording was ambiguous, but no, I don't own any Super Big Reds ( though I had weeky access to a pair back in the 80's ).


:)

What would you think that they would have crossed the Jensen over at? I know that the Mastering Labs crossovers note a special provision for the auxiliary speaker on their crossover descriptions raising its cost by $35.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/high-end/324566d1357729196-altec-604-big-reds-mastering-lab-crossovers-x_over1.jpg
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/high-end/324567d1357729210-altec-604-big-reds-mastering-lab-crossovers-x_over2.jpg

[Earl K]

Hi Todd,

That price seems pretty high for such an old amp ( though maybe there's some latent collectors appeal ?? ).

It's been decades since I heard one in action / so I don't have anything really to say about them ( apart from something that age usually needs a top-to-bottom refresh ).


:)

[Earl K]

What would you think that they would have crossed the Jensen over at? I know that the Mastering Labs crossovers note a special provision for the auxiliary speaker on their crossover descriptions raising its cost slightly.

I imagine somewhere around 90hz.

One large a$$ coil will do it.

Is that woofer 4 or 8ohms ?

:)

[toddalin]

I imagine somewhere around 90hz.

One large a$$ coil will do it.

Is that woofer 4 or 8ohms ?

:)

I've no idea.

I think that this, or one of its variations, is what they used, though its hard to believe that they would charge $130 for one of these when they list the 604s at just $225. Of course they call it an Audiotechiques woofer.

When I get the wrap off, I can measure the dc resistance. I wonder it it serves as a passive radiator as much as a woofer.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Jensen-15-Woofer-220950/153022071415?hash=item23a0d38277:g:aqIAAOSwA4Va46U g:rk:30:pf:0

[rusty jefferson]

I have this link someone previously posted about the Altec/UREI chronology. About half way down the page is your speakers. Looks like designed as 16 ohm system impedance to work with the ML crossovers, and concern that sometimes drivers are accidentally reconed/diaphragmed 8 ohm.
https://www.technicalaudio.com/pdf/Duplex_Speakers_related_to_Altec_604/DUPLEX.html

I believe the UREIs crossed in (not over) the helper woofers much higher, like around 400-500hz. Don't know if these would be similar?

[toddalin]

I have this link someone previously posted about the Altec/UREI chronology. About half way down the page is your speakers. Looks like designed as 16 ohm system impedance to work with the ML crossovers, and concern that sometimes drivers are accidentally reconed/diaphragmed 8 ohm.
https://www.technicalaudio.com/pdf/Duplex_Speakers_related_to_Altec_604/DUPLEX.html

I believe the UREIs crossed in (not over) the helper woofers much higher, like around 400-500hz. Don't know if these would be similar?


Do you mean low passed (i.e., used up to 400-500 Hz) or high passed (i.e., used above 400-500 Hz)?

Thanks

[rusty jefferson]

Do you mean low passed (i.e., used up to 400-500 Hz) or high passed (i.e., used above 400-500 Hz)?

Thanks
Low passed, used up to maybe 400hz, but no high pass on the coax woofer. So, both working together below say 400hz in the same enclosure volume. That's my understanding of the UREI implementation, though I have never measured mine, and they are currently disassembled.

[Earl K]

Low passed, used up to maybe 400hz, but no high pass on the coax woofer. So, both working together below say 400hz in the same enclosure volume. That's my understanding of the UREI implementation, though I have never measured mine, and they are currently disassembled.



I'd say that 400hz figure is about right Rusty ( based on looking at the 813c schematic ).

:)

[toddalin]

I picked this up today. All makes sense now! I would bet that there were very few of these ever made. Note the wording on the "lables."

http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_00027.JPG
http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_00039.JPG

[toddalin]

http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_00045.JPG
http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_00027.JPG

Todd,

Most likely the system is designed to be biamped with the HF amp feeding what's seen in the pic ( for tonal shaping ).

FWIW, I do the exact same thing.

:)


Who would have made them and who would have made the electronic crossover..., Audiotechniques? Certainly these aren't Altec pieces and there are no manufacture names on any of them.

[speakerdave]

Who would have made them and who would have made the electronic crossover..., Audiotechniques? Certainly these aren't Altec pieces and there are no manufacture names on any of them.


They are most likely custom one-offs; no manufacturer's tag with all the legal stuff.

[Ian Mackenzie]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=46901&d=1280933585

[toddalin]

Actually, I came across some indication that Audiotechniques made electronics crossovers for the Altec duplex speakers, so perhaps this is some of their work. I came across this:


ELECTRONIC CROSSOVER
Another control room goody that can be built with a state-variable filter is an electronic crossover for bi-amping, or for that subwoofer you've always wanted. Taking advantage of the simultaneous high-pass and low-pass outputs, we get precisely complimentary curves that fall at a rate of 12 dB. per octave. There has been a lot of talk lately about the advantages of using 18 dB. per octave slopes, so I contacted Altec, JBL, and Audiotechniques (Big Red monitors) for their recommendations. JBL was emphatic that 12 dB. per octave crossovers should be used with their components, and Audiotechniques also felt that this would create less ringing and phase shift than the 18 dB. types. On the other hand, Bob Davis explained that Altec offers crossovers in several formats, and as such he couldn't endorse any particular design.


http://ethanwiner.com/spectrum.html

[toddalin]

The appropriate plugs and cords came yesterday so I could connect the electronic crossover. It required two RCA -> XLR and six 1/4" -> RCA.

I decided to first run this through an aux input on the Yamaha RX-Z9 at low volume to make sure that it was doing what it is supposed to do and document the results before putting it to the Super Reds.

I was really disappointed when I plugged it in and what looks like a power light didn't come on, but there was no smoke. There is no "on" switch. So I checked the fuse, which was good and decided to proceed. I works, so maybe the LED is burned out/disconnected/or serves another purpose (e.g., clipping indicator).

I ran the SACD/DVD player stereo outputs into the crossover inputs. I connected the crossover outputs to the Yamaha's aux input and set the Behringer 61-band RTA to monitor the "line level" circuit.

I put on the pink noise track on the Stereophile Test Disk. First I connected the outputs from the auxiliary woofer channels and the results are included below. This is with the 50/75/150Hz boost circuit set to flat:
http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_00028.JPG

This shows what is going to the 604E woofer section.

http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_000310.JPG

And finally, this is what goes to the horn. A subsequent passive circuit between the power amp and horn (not shown here) allows for contouring.
http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_00046.JPG

[toddalin]

Yesterday I was going though the provided speaker wires. Based on the connections, it would appear that they just ran the auxiliary woofer in parallel with the 604 woofer in a bi-amped mode, so whether or not they actually used this crossover is unknown. They had other electronic crossovers for sale.

[toddalin]

I am getting a hum from the Soundcraftsmen amp that I think is caused by a difference in the chassis grounds to the crossover. I thought it was the amp, but apparently not. Anyways, I'll try a jumper between these two chassis. The crossover actually has the lugs for this provision.

Meanwhile, even with some hum, these things sing beautifully! I can see/hear no damage to the components and they still look original.

[toddalin]

I've been listening to the "Supers" and must say that the tri-amping and passive contouring on the horn makes all the difference in the world! I never figured that the 604E could go as high as well as it does and when the coutours are set flat, it doesn't. I don't even think that I will add an external tweeter to these. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/music.gif

I did a recording and my wife thinks its too bright. I need to dial in the crossover after I figure out what's going on with a hum in the Soundcraftsmen that I'm not getting on the Yamaha or Marantz.


https://youtu.be/vzYkXTGUgUY

[Ian Mackenzie]

Yesterday I was going though the provided speaker wires. Based on the connections, it would appear that they just ran the auxiliary woofer in parallel with the 604 woofer in a bi-amped mode, so whether or not they actually used this crossover is unknown. They had other electronic crossovers for sale.


Seems like you are making steady progress on discovering how this system works.
Those graphs look like the 4435 response curves (the 4435 also uses a helper woofer).
Are you using 3 power amps to drive the helper woofer, 604E and horn at this stage?

A tri amp crossover makes a lot of sense because a passive crossover on the helper woofer is a compromise.

Ian

[toddalin]

I have the Yamaha SACD feed into a Yamaha DSP-A1 Integrated home theater system (110WPC @8 ohms). The preamp outputs go to the electronic crossover. The HF goes back to the Yamaha to the amplifier inputs (jumpers removed). The Yamaha then feeds the HF contour networks and subsequently the horns.

The 604 woofer and aux woofer outputs from the electronic crossover feed the four channels of the Soundcraftsmen 300x4 power amp. A 604 woofer and aux woofer are on each of the "stereo pairs" so as to "distribute the load equally side to side." The Soundcraftsmen is giving me a problem with a hum when connected to the crossover, though I've tried a cheater plug and grounding the chassis together to no avail. The Yamaha has no such hum and is dead silent.

OK, this is the Super Big Reds doing the requisite "Tin Pan Alley."

Not bad for a pair of 45-50 year old speakers that I paid $700, including the custom made electronic crossover, high frequency contouring units, and cables with dual bananas, delivered to my living room. When I recorded on Super Big Reds in the early 70's, this is what I remember.


Again, no subs, eq, or processing is being used.

https://youtu.be/OJaH9vz8y5E
https://youtu.be/OJaH9vz8y5E

[toddalin]

Really loving these things! Imaging puts the JBLs to shame and they don't suffer from the "veil." Maybe room/seating placement plays a part in this, but I'm really lovin' what I hear even just using the level settings that were already set in the crossover (i.e., not accounting for their amp sensitivities relative to my amp sensitivities).