2234 Project

[Sootshe]

To all those who helped with the bass driver recommendation for my project.....many thanks.
So now things are under way & I've sourced a few components.

1. A pair of 2225's, one from Australia that has arrived & another from the States, which is on the way.
2. A pair of 2235 recone kits.
3. A pair of A55 mid drivers.
4. A pair of 2404 tweeters

On the way is also a pair of Elliptrac 400 mid horns & some of Werner Jagusch's crossovers. Will post photos of those when they arrive.

In the meantime, here's some snaps of my stockpile so far.

[Sootshe]

and some of the mid driver.

[1audiohack]

Cool indeed!

Keep sharing. (:

Barry.

[Sootshe]

Pulled the bass drivers apart ready for reconing. I think there must have been 30 years of glue on these frames, but in the end they came up pretty good. A lot of elbow grease, a chisel, some sandpaper & a lot of acetone & I think they're pretty much back to new.

On one of the drivers there is mesh on the external & internal sides of the voice coil & the other one has nothing at all. I presume I will need to put a mesh grill on the external side of the driver that has nothing, but should I also put some on the inside as well? or should I remove the inside mesh & just have mesh on the external side?

[grumpy]

I’d get a pro-reconer opinion, but why not both while they’re opened up. You don’t want crap getting in there.

[Sootshe]

I’d get a pro-reconer opinion, but why not both while they’re opened up. You don’t want crap getting in there.

Yes, I'll ask the reconer guys.........crap never sounds good in your music.

[ivica]

Yes, I'll ask the reconer guys.........crap never sounds good in your music.

HI Sootshe,

Nice work. now getting 2234/5 recones would be even 'heavier task' (in any ways).

regards
ivica

[Sootshe]

Mid range horns have arrived.

These are built up in segments by gluing & screwing from the rear & need to be sanded smooth. Dave Harris has made a beautiful transition section from the 2" throat down to the 1" driver.

These horns are physically longer than I thought they would be, so have had to have a rethink on the cabinet design. Originally I was putting the mid horn in the bass cabinet, but will now have to make a seperate cabinet for the mid horn & sit this on top of the bass cabinet.

[toddalin]

Cool!

Looks like they were made by Michelin.

[Sootshe]

The crossovers have arrived from Germany.
They are a thing of beauty & can't wait to hear them.

Will be taking a short break from things as the doctors do a few running repairs, but hope to be continuing within a couple of weeks. 79636

[Sootshe]

Back from hospital after a couple of weeks & the new hip is performing well. Well enough for me to stand at the workbench & start the recone of the woofers.

Before I start applying glue, I would just like to know your opinions on whether I should make these drivers 2234's or 2235's, as I have the option to use the mass control rings.

I believe I will have enough attenuation on the crossovers to pad down the mids if I use 2235's. The mids are 106db & 12ohms & I've been working on 96db for the 2234's & 93db for the 2235's.

I know the 35's will dig deeper, but maybe the 34's will have more of a crack??? Not sure. Any first hand listening experiences welcome. Would like to stick with the standard 5ft3 cab & recommended ports as per 4430's.

Oh, I don't want to use a sub & believe I will be happy with the low end of the 34's, purely based on my experience with a pair of Altec model 19's, just want to make sure I'm making the right decision & don't really want to pull the dust caps off, if I should have gone with 35's.

Regards,
John

[turnitdown]

You will get better answers from others, but here are my thoughts. The crack you speak of will probably occur in the mid range depending on where you cross over to the mid. If that is indeed the case, go the 2235 route and get all the bass benefit.

[toddalin]

:no:

The fundamentals of the "crack" are conveyed by the woofer and the 2234 would in all likelihood do the better job here.

https://www.moderndrummer.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Shop-Talk-new-Table-1_mp.png

[turnitdown]

See? There you go. We both learned something. Thanks

[toddalin]

I have my 2251Js coming in at ~110 Hz and drums are absolutely spectacular!

[Sootshe]

You will get better answers from others, but here are my thoughts. The crack you speak of will probably occur in the mid range depending on where you cross over to the mid. If that is indeed the case, go the 2235 route and get all the bass benefit.

I'll be crossing at 500Hz to the mid horn......interesting set of frequency ranges for the drum kit Toddalin......I assume the bass drum is somewhere around 40Hz. Being an ex drummer, if the drums don't sound right, it kills the whole thing for me.

I don't listen to music with any overblown, artificial, synthesized bass, so I don't need the bottom end to plumb the depths. Just want that realistic sound from the kit when you wind the wick up a bit.

[toddalin]

I just had my wife sit down and A/B her favorite song "Stairway to Heaven" on the L200/300 and the New Creation consisting of a 2241H 18", a 2251J ~10", and the Heil AMT. The crack on the snare and clarity of the kit is so much more noticable and the voice is clearer and more intelligable on the New Creation enough that she mentioned it.

[Sootshe]

Started the recone on the bass drivers today & have them all done, apart from the dust caps.
Pretty tough to get down into the spider, but just took my time & tried not to panic. The Moyen goes off in a couple of minutes, so you do need to be fairly quick.

Have my fingers crossed that when I pull the shims out, all will be OK. I've never done this before & it could be an expensive job if it doesn't work properly. I'll check the cone travel tomorrow after they've dried overnight........I don't want to hear any scratchy noises!

[Sootshe]

Success......what a relief. No scraping noises & all glued up & ready to go.
They're a bit rough around the dust caps, but not too bad for a first attempt. I didn't have enough glue to do a trial run on some scrap material, but functionally it will be fine.

It actually looks worse in the photos then in real life.

Now have to start on the mid horn assemblies.

[1audiohack]

Way to go! :applaud:

Barry.

[Sootshe]

Made a start on the mid horns.

Glueing up a few segments at a time & then sanding....glue a few more segments - sand again.
Very time consuming, but if you just keep going you get through it.

The larger one in the photo still has 4 segments to be glued on, the smaller one I haven't quite finished that section yet, done enough for the day.
I can do about 3 segments per day, so I'm nearly half way through.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Nice work

[Sootshe]

So, after many, many hours of sanding, the horns are finally finished.
Went for something fairly radical - Hammered Copper finish.

Met with my cabinet maker & have all the plans finalised for the cabinets. We have changed from the original birch ply, due to the cost of that material & are now going with 32mm MDF for all panels. (Just hope I am going to be able to move them around). He is going to cut all the panels to size for me & use mortice & tenon joints to make the construction a bit easier for me. Should have some timber panels to work with in a couple of weeks.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Very impressive

[Sootshe]

Very impressive

Thanks Ian, the finished product makes the effort all worthwhile.

Can't wait to start on the cabinets.....should be making sawdust soon.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Great

Keep us in the loop

[toddalin]

Cool! :applaud:

[Sootshe]

Some better shots......pity you won't see them when the grilles are on.

[Sootshe]

Cabinets have started - sorry about the photos, but this is from the cabinet makers shop. Will get some more detailed photos when I get them back to my place.

All done on a CNC machine with mortice & tenon joints. All 32mm MDF.

[Sootshe]

More build photos.

[Sootshe]

Ports fitted & backs & bottoms painted.

Veneer should be here in about a week & I have chosen a Silky Oak veneer that will have an oiled finish.

[Ian Mackenzie]

More build photos.

Excellent work

[Sootshe]

Cabinets all veneered & ready to oil.

I'm going to use a product called Country Oil, which is an oil based sealer that can be re-oiled if needed or to rejuvenate weathered or dry timber veneer.

It leaves a completely natural appearance, whilst protecting the timber surface. As it dries, the oil evaporate away & leave a protective urethane coating that can be re-oiled if necessary.

Judging from a sample I tried, I think I'll need 3 or 4 coats. The last coat is applied with wet & dry sandpaper.

[Sootshe]

Everything complete, all set up & running.

The sound is just fabulous, so glad I took your advice & went with these 2234 drivers, they are just amazing.

Thanks to all for your advice & assistance.

[Ian Mackenzie]

That is a seriously good looking loudspeaker.

You put in the hard yards and it shows.

I bet they sound fantastic.

[cooky1257]

Seriously nice job there. If you haven't already I'd suggest you spray the fibreglass with hairspray to stop fibres getting into your living room/lungs.
Love the horn colour/veneer combo.
Frank

[Earl K]

Wow, what a great look!

Beautiful finishes ( especially the horn )!

That elliptical horn should give you some great imaging ( I know my H5038s did when I ran them ).

:)

[Sootshe]

Seriously nice job there. If you haven't already I'd suggest you spray the fibreglass with hairspray to stop fibres getting into your living room/lungs.
Love the horn colour/veneer combo.
Frank

Thanks Frank, great tip.
Actually after I lined the cabs in fibreglass, I covered it all with grill cloth.

[1audiohack]

Those really are gorgeous. Copper is my favorite color. :)

Barry.

[Mr. Widget]

Well done!
Thanks for sharing, it is always fun to watch the journey.


Widget

[DavidF]

I have honestly never heard the term Silky Oak. Had to look it up to see if it is a species reference (yes) or a finish technique. It has a very nice grain pattern (quarter sawn, me thinks?) and works well for your project. Very well done.

[toddalin]

Beautiful!

[Sootshe]

Those really are gorgeous. Copper is my favorite color. :)

Barry.

Thanks Barry,

It's hammered copper & initially I wasn't quite sure whether I should go this way, as all the other horns I've had have been black, but I'm really pleased with these.

They actually look darker in the photos than they actually are. In reality they blend in far better with the oiled silky oak than it looks.....the horns almost match the timber finish. (more luck than anything else).

[Sootshe]

I have honestly never heard the term Silky Oak. Had to look it up to see if it is a species reference (yes) or a finish technique. It has a very nice grain pattern (quarter sawn, me thinks?) and works well for your project. Very well done.

Yes, quarter sawn & book matched. I've also matched the end grain on the sides of the cabinets & on the fronts, from the bass bins to the horn cabs.

Thanks for the kind comments.

[Sootshe]

Have shortened the tweeter mounting bracket & it now sounds more cohesive & more of a point source to the sound.

I wasn't sure how high to make it before, so a bit of trial & error was involved, but I think I have it sorted now.

[ivica]

Have shortened the tweeter mounting bracket & it now sounds more cohesive & more of a point source to the sound.

I wasn't sure how high to make it before, so a bit of trial & error was involved, but I think I have it sorted now.

Hi Sootshe,

Introducing too large vertical distances between VHF and UHF driver, You would introduce very large comb filter effects round UHF/UHF crossover region in the vertical plane.
I think it wold be better if You can introduce active (3-Way) DSP supported crossover in the system so time compensation can be applied, and mounting UHF driver almost in the front plate as near as possible to the VHF horn upper part of the horn mouth, or under the horn, mounted in the bass front baffle.

regards
ivica

[Ian Mackenzie]

l love the room and the finish of these enclosures.

Very inspiring.

[speakerdave]

Really nice work on an impressive project. Thank you for the glimpse of your creative work.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Can you tell us a bit about the rest of your system?

[Sootshe]

Hi Sootshe,

Introducing too large vertical distances between VHF and UHF driver, You would introduce very large comb filter effects round UHF/UHF crossover region in the vertical plane.
I think it wold be better if You can introduce active (3-Way) DSP supported crossover in the system so time compensation can be applied, and mounting UHF driver almost in the front plate as near as possible to the VHF horn upper part of the horn mouth, or under the horn, mounted in the bass front baffle.

regards
ivica

Thanks for the advice Ivica.

I know what you mean, but I've been down that path before & at this stage in my life I'm trying to keep things as simple as possible.
I've gone back to an integrated amp & no sub.....just a simple system that I can enjoy without too many complications.

[Sootshe]

Can you tell us a bit about the rest of your system?

Glad to Ian.

I've gone back to a more simplified set up & my rack consists of the following.

Conrad Johnson CA200 integrated amplifier (185W/ channel - solid state)
Stello U3 USB converter
NAIM DAC

Source is a MacBook Pro with solid state hard drive, running Amarra. The computer is dedicated to music only.
I run an external solid state drive with all the files on that & it is connected via Firewire to seperate it from the USB drive to the DAC.

I use WAV files, as after much extended experimentation, I believe they sound the best, although the Metadata issues are a real pain.
Having said that, the software makers are gradually integrating WAV into their systems to make them more user friendly & there are ways around some of the metadata shortcomings.

For cables I use -

Curious USB cable from the Mac to the converter
AudioQuest Carbon from the converter to the DAC
Van den Hul Orchid from the DAC to the amp

Audioquest carbon firewire from the Mac to the external hard drive.

Speaker cable is Kimber 12TC
& I wired the speakers internally with Auric Hookup wire.

Power to all equipment is through a THOR regulated power supply & that is powered from it's own dedicated 30amp power point.

I use VibraPod vibration absorbers under each piece of equipment, however the equipment rack is some gear I bought 30 years ago & probably not up to todays standards.

My system is in an open plan living, dining, kitchen room & is 11.1m long x 4.4m wide, but has another open area 4m x 2.7m at the speaker end of the room. Ceiling height is 2.7m & floor is concrete. The seating position is 4.7m from the speaker wall.

At some stage I'd like to convert the existing garage into a dedicated listening room, but that's a bit further down the track. That room would be 7m x 4m with the same 2.7m ceiling.

I can't say how much I'm enjoying these new speakers. I used to be a drummer & these speakers come the closest I've heard to the real live sound of drums & in fact, most instruments & voices.

JBL's have a great reputation & now I know why.......just can't figure out why it took me 40 years to get them!

[Ian Mackenzie]

That’s a very nice system

Don’t change anything!

When l get back from school holidays l talk to you about setting up my Mac Pro.

[Sootshe]

That’s a very nice system

Don’t change anything!

When l get back from school holidays l talk to you about setting up my Mac Pro.
No problem....glad to help.

[Sootshe]

Not sure whether I like these or not.

Maybe I should go for the more traditional look & make them full width x 50mm deep....maybe have them go down to just below the woofer?

[turnitdown]

First, I must compliment you on a great project!

It is not my business, so if you like them, great. My (useless?) sense of scale says they might be a touch wider and definitely, longer.

[Sootshe]

First, I must compliment you on a great project!

It is not my business, so if you like them, great. My (useless?) sense of scale says they might be a touch wider and definitely, longer.

Yes, I think I agree. I'll do up a set full width, similar to those on the model 19's in my avatar, but only going down to just below the woofer, so you can still see some timber on the front baffle. I think I'll also make some for the mid horn.

Ah... I see my avatar picture was taken with the grilles off from the 19's....

[Sootshe]

Here's the finished product. This is attempt number 4, so I think I have things the way I want them now.
Decided to make them look a bit meatier , so have thickened the edge of the frames & changed the grille cloth to "anthracite".

It was a tense moment drilling into the cabs to install the frame dowels for holding the grilles on, but all went well.

I'm liking the look of these, so all done for now.

Sounding better than ever as I get more hours on both the drivers & more probably, the crossovers.

[Don C]

It looks fantastic.

[Earl K]

Well I can't remember why I was searching Google ( oh yes, Werner Jagusch crossovers ) and this thread popped up >>> so

I need to say again ( and give a tip-of-the-hat for) what a great project this was//is.

I imagine there have been countless hours of enjoyment had listening to this system.

:)

[srm51555]

Agreed, for some reason I didn’t reply the first time, so thanks for bringing it back up