L200 - Should I cut some holes in these things?

[nikster22]

Hello everyone!

Long-time lurker here. This site has been indispensable to me over the years. Truly an exceptional source for JBL information, so much so that I really haven't found the need to post or even make an account until now. This is more of a personal preference question rather than technical and there is no single correct answer, I'd just like some input from the community.

A couple of years ago, I picked up four L200's from the original owner (one pair L200, one pair L200A). The cabinets are very clean, easily an 8 to 8.5/10 for each cab. Drivers are all original and functional. Clean grilles which I believe were factory replacements with brown fabric instead of foam and logos. The small, pocket sized manual for each unit was included. Custom, clear glass tops cut for each one. Crossovers caps I believe are starting to deteriorate but I haven't replaced any components in them as I believe they are riveted together.

My question is this - I've lived with these for a couple of years now and used them "as-is" for a while, then built some L200B crossovers (with a series resistor on the LE15B to compensate for it being ~4 ohms rather than 8), then did a tri-amp setup with 2404 tweeters and an outboard active crossover. The active crossover setup was far and away the best sounding to my ears. I'd really like to add 2405 "slot" tweeters to one or both pairs, but I want to mount them on the baffle like the L300. I think that will provide a cleaner look than having them sitting on top of the cabinet and I'm thinking it may yield an audible improvement having the tweeter closer to the horn. I realize they won't actually mimic the L300 due to the L91/H91, LE15B, etc, but that isn't really my goal. I liked the sound with them tri-amped, so I'm just trying to clean things up a tad. Am I butchering something desirable by cutting tweeter holes in them? Should I move these clean ones along to someone who wants them original, and start with a pair that are already in rough condition if I'm going to modify them anyway? Prices seem to be all over the map and I'm not into these things for a whole lot so it isn't a "loss" to me if I reduce their value but I don't want to ruin something that is on the rare side in good condition. I'd like to think I'll keep them long-term but who knows. Seems like the addition of a tweeter would be appealing to all but the purists, but perhaps not.

Anyway, as stated previously this is not a straightforward question but any and all input would be appreciated. Thanks!

Nik

[emilime75]

I'm not super knowledgeable on the scarcity and cost of many vintage drivers, so this may be a poor suggestion. I'd say sell your L200s, and use the money to acquire the components you want to use, and build(or have them built) cabinets to your liking.

If I'm not mistaken, L200s, in the condition you're describing, could fetch $1000, maybe more for a pair. It'd be a shame to cut them up just because you want a change, while someone else out there may be looking for exactly what you have.

Also, since you've already heard the virtues of active processing, it makes picking and choosing drivers much more interesting. One no longer has to worry(too much) about various driver sensitivities. As long as each driver chosen can easily cover the needed pass-bands, and they can reach the desired extension, you're pretty much good to go. A bit more involved, of course, but that's the jist.

[BMWCCA]

The L200 is a lovely box. That being said, I don't believe it carries enough collector value to be appreciably effected by such a common modification. In fact, the baffle setup seems to beg for a UHF hole in the way it is organized and many of the most collectible JBLs came with holes with blank plates covering them either for adding drivers at a later date or for rotating the boxes for setting them up as a mirror-image pairs. To me, you'd be increasing the value with a properly outfitted UHF, but then I live with 4345 clones . . . because I like the sound!

[gsb001]

Need pictures.
SB

[nikster22]

Hi all,

Great responses, thank you.

To emilime75's thoughts on selling and building something custom - unfortunately, I really don't have the time for that. I'd love to do a setup with Fostex or TAD drivers (wood horns, etc.) but the time and money involved puts that type of rig out of reach for me at the moment. Doing an active setup on the L200 was my compromise to that, as I could access all the wiring without taking any of the drivers out, so it was a relatively quick test to see if I liked the sound. Drilling holes for the tweeters would likely be the extent of wood-working (if you can even call it that) I would have the time and patience for at the moment. Part of the advantage in modifying these is that I already own them. I know that sounds silly, but they're so big, heavy, and difficult to move it warrants really considering whether or not I can make them work for my needs.

BMWCCA - I was wondering about some of dealer-installed stuff and how this wouldn't be too far off from something like that, although they wouldn't have a useful 3-way passive crossover when I was done (just some wires out the back for the tweeter). I think part of the charm of the older JBL pieces is that they encouraged modification to taste. A different time, for sure. And wow! 4345's! I am envious.

You've both given me something to consider and I appreciate it. The L200A pair is actually in slightly rougher shape than the L200, so maybe I should move the cleaner pair to fund the tweeter purchase and move on from there.

I'll try to get some photos up. Thanks again!

[Mr. Widget]

Personally I love the looks of the L200 and would make the mod in a heartbeat. They were a big seller for JBL and therefore there are many of them out in the wild.

Go go for it!


Widget

[toddalin]

Done right, I think they actually increase the value.

You can also "punch out" the backs to put in the L300 horns, and raise the cabinets, adding internal volume, by "punching out" the old bottom and extending it while adding a new one.


http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/Revised_L200_vs_4430.jpg
http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_0031.JPG

http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_0025.JPG

I also made new crossovers, and extended and flared the ports internally.

http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_0020.JPG

http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/data//500/medium/DSC_0022.JPG

[nikster22]

Personally I love the looks of the L200 and would make the mod in a heartbeat. They were a big seller for JBL and therefore there are many of them out in the wild.

Go go for it!


Widget

I like the looks of the cabs too. I think that's why I've kept them around even while being indecisive about what to do with them. Love the shape and the build quality is like Stickley furniture. The sales volume of them makes me feel better about making changes. Thanks!

[nikster22]

[QUOTE=toddalin;409801]Done right, I think they actually increase the value.

You can also "punch out" the backs to put in the L300 horns, and raise the cabinets, adding internal volume, by "punching out" the old bottom and extending it while adding a new one.

/QUOTE]

Great photos and very high quality work on the bump-out for the horn. Did you find that to be a significant improvement in midrange performance? I am guessing so since you went to the trouble to add them but I've never had the opportunity to listen to a pair of L300 for comparison.

Also - had NO idea the 4430 was so big! Guess I should have as I knew it utilized the 2235 LF but that side-by-side with the L200 really hits it home. Great pictures, thanks for posting!

[hjames]

I did put a hole top center on the baffleboard for a slot tweeter and pulled the original "canned" crossover & replaced it with a plate with some good
5-way banana style connectors. I also built a dolly to surround the original particle board footers so I could put mine on wheels to move them easily.

Tho, I did take a different approach than Todd -other than a hole fo the slot tweeters, no other holes or mods to the cabinets I had.
I did update the crossover to 3 way capability and installed a pair of slot tweeters.
I built boxes to do the rear panel bump out, but before I cut and installed them, I found I preferred vocals through wooden smith horns
rather than the L300 style long horns and 2425s for midrange.
So after experimenting with a pair of the original grey JBL Smith horns, I had a nice set of walnut horns built and wound up using them for mids
with pro drivers.

Most of the detail of my 8 year build evolution is here:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?15317-Looky-What-I-just-got-Those-Darned-L200-Cabs-(from-Aberdeen)


http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=63603&d=1416164249

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=63607&d=1416164315

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=42588&stc=1&d=1256562933

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=42029&stc=1&d=1254089495<strong>

[bldozier]

from a vintage collectors stand point i would stay away from modifying any vintage JBL component, crossovers, cabinets, or baffles. I would't even fool with the cloth on the speaker grill.
The items could be replicated as many members here do, but i would save the originals, myself. just build some copies if you want to add a horn the L200, same with the networks. if you want a different sound from your system, build a network based of the original, i would not mod the original,

again i would not touch it.
brian

[BMWCCA]

. . . again i would not touch it.

I suppose a lot of it depends on whether or not you're listening or just looking. :dont-know:

[1audiohack]

Just look at my name. You know how I am going to vote. :D

Go buy a hole saw!

Barry.

[nikster22]

I did put a hole top center on the baffleboard for a slot tweeter and pulled the original "canned" crossover & replaced it with a plate with some good
5-way banana style connectors. I also built a dolly to surround the original particle board footers so I could put mine on wheels to move them easily.

Tho, I did take a different approach than Todd -other than a hole fo the slot tweeters, no other holes or mods to the cabinets I had.
I did update the crossover to 3 way capability and installed a pair of slot tweeters.
I built boxes to do the rear panel bump out, but before I cut and installed them, I found I preferred vocals through wooden smith horns
rather than the L300 style long horns and 2425s for midrange.
So after experimenting with a pair of the original grey JBL Smith horns, I had a nice set of walnut horns built and wound up using them for mids
with pro drivers.

Most of the detail of my 8 year build evolution is here:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?15317-Looky-What-I-just-got-Those-Darned-L200-Cabs-(from-Aberdeen)


I frequented that thread frequently when I was purchasing these! LOVE the look of the wood horns. It looks like a recording studio. I am about to do the dolly modification as well so I can position them easily and experiment.

[nikster22]

from a vintage collectors stand point i would stay away from modifying any vintage JBL component, crossovers, cabinets, or baffles. I would't even fool with the cloth on the speaker grill.
The items could be replicated as many members here do, but i would save the originals, myself. just build some copies if you want to add a horn the L200, same with the networks. if you want a different sound from your system, build a network based of the original, i would not mod the original,

again i would not touch it.
brian


I suppose a lot of it depends on whether or not you're listening or just looking. :dont-know:


Just look at my name. You know how I am going to vote. :D

Go buy a hole saw!

Barry.

This is the type of back and forth I was hoping for, and a good example of why I've been on the fence for so long :) Whenever I think to myself "ehh, these aren't so rare or valuable", there ends up being at least a few alternate takes. At this point here are my thoughts - these are indeed hard to find in good shape, but I'd be modding them with JBL drivers, objectively improving them, and beyond the small tweeter opening and mounting holes, not really doing anything that couldn't be un-done for the most part. The pair that Heather has been working with over the years look as clean if not cleaner than mine, and she's been on quite a journey with them and is ultimately pleased with the results. If they were 4350's or something else truly exceptional and highly regarded for their sound quality out of the box, I would leave them alone. Then again, they would already have all the drivers I wanted pre-installed :bouncy:

I think I will start with the L200A pair which isn't quite as clean, keep my passive L200B crossovers on the cleaner L200 pair, and proceed from there. I figured that way I'll split the difference - the cleanest pair original (for now), the slightly less perfect pair modded.

Thanks everyone!

[hjames]

Do understand I've had 2 pair of cabinets over the years (You can see 3 cabinets in the lowest picture).
The first pair had been oversanded (by a flipper, I think) at one point, along one edge he had sanded clean through the veneer!
But once I had the original 3 ways (quasi-L300 style) config working, and realized they were keepers, I found a 2nd pair of boxes in much nicer condition -
tho I had to haul them back from nearly 2 states away (Aberdeen MD to Northern VA).

Also realize that I had a really good offer for them almost 2 years ago and sold them
(mostly intact - I did sell the walnut wooden lenses and the extra pair of pristine 066 slot tweeters).

Good luck on your project! Have great fun!

[toddalin]

I had no qualms about the mods I did. My components were previously in University cabinets. I paid $50 for the two L200 cabinets with the "window screens" (no grills) and they needed lots of serious work.

On one, the lower front portion was completely broken away and I made a new piece and glued it into place. These were kept outside and none of the veneer was any good and the front trim was quite "dented" in many places. I saved them from being scrap.

[badman]

It's no surprise that the active was way better than with a series resistor. Series resistors on 4 ohm drivers do not equal 8 ohm comparable. The efficiency of 4/8 ohm drivers is the same, the sensitivity is different. Add a resistor to the 4 ohm driver and the driver is now 3dB less sensitive than the 8 ohm driver, so not surprising that would perform suboptimally. I'd probably sell and do a custom system as some others have mentioned.

[nikster22]

It's no surprise that the active was way better than with a series resistor. Series resistors on 4 ohm drivers do not equal 8 ohm comparable. The efficiency of 4/8 ohm drivers is the same, the sensitivity is different. Add a resistor to the 4 ohm driver and the driver is now 3dB less sensitive than the 8 ohm driver, so not surprising that would perform suboptimally. I'd probably sell and do a custom system as some others have mentioned.

It was not sub-optimal. The impedance of that LE15B was affecting the crossover point and the driver is more sensitive than the 136A which the network was designed for. Padding it down reeled in the the output level and put the crossover point where it should be. I did a frequency sweep to confirm that the resistor had the desired effect. The 3dB drop was known and intended for the application.

Having said that, in my opinion, active crossovers with drivers connected directly to amplifiers will always be superior. I believe this explains the prevalence of multi-amp, active crossover studio monitors today. It is now cost-effective to build everything into one box and the performance is hard to beat with a single amp and passive components.

[nikster22]

I had no qualms about the mods I did. My components were previously in University cabinets. I paid $50 for the two L200 cabinets with the "window screens" (no grills) and they needed lots of serious work.

On one, the lower front portion was completely broken away and I made a new piece and glued it into place. These were kept outside and none of the veneer was any good and the front trim was quite "dented" in many places. I saved them from being scrap.

Good to know. 50 bucks is a steal even for beat ones! I'm amazed that press board survived at all being left outside. Any sheet of it I've ever seen subjected to moisture has severely warped or turned to mush.

[nikster22]

Do understand I've had 2 pair of cabinets over the years (You can see 3 cabinets in the lowest picture).
The first pair had been oversanded (by a flipper, I think) at one point, along one edge he had sanded clean through the veneer!
But once I had the original 3 ways (quasi-L300 style) config working, and realized they were keepers, I found a 2nd pair of boxes in much nicer condition -
tho I had to haul them back from nearly 2 states away (Aberdeen MD to Northern VA).

Also realize that I had a really good offer for them almost 2 years ago and sold them
(mostly intact - I did sell the walnut wooden lenses and the extra pair of pristine 066 slot tweeters).

Good luck on your project! Have great fun!

Ah, I see that now. I was looking at the pair in the background.

Thanks!

[badman]

It was not sub-optimal. The impedance of that LE15B was affecting the crossover point and the driver is more sensitive than the 136A which the network was designed for. Padding it down reeled in the the output level and put the crossover point where it should be. I did a frequency sweep to confirm that the resistor had the desired effect. The 3dB drop was known and intended for the application.


The level of design precision of these older systems is not high, so it's perhaps not a biggie, but in a well optimized system, there are a lot of negative impacts to resistive padding. It impacts bass alignment, crossover slope behavior, and other factors, it sounds like you took a pretty simplified analysis approach here- again which is fine, because the JBL systems of yore didn't benefit from modern design elements which have improved dramatically. Resistive padding also can increase distortion (drastically lower damping).

[nikster22]

The level of design precision of these older systems is not high, so it's perhaps not a biggie, but in a well optimized system, there are a lot of negative impacts to resistive padding. It impacts bass alignment, crossover slope behavior, and other factors, it sounds like you took a pretty simplified analysis approach here- again which is fine, because the JBL systems of yore didn't benefit from modern design elements which have improved dramatically. Resistive padding also can increase distortion (drastically lower damping).

Simplistic is an understatement with this system, particularly with the original crossover. It is a fairly crude network and doesn't even utilize an L-pad to attenuate the horn, just a selectable in-line resistor much like what I did on the woofer. I also didn't realize the true impedance of the LE15B before building the L200B crossover, hence the after-the-fact fix using the in-line resistor. The LE15B's don't dig very deep, and I've only driven these with transformer-coupled amps so any hope of a respectable damping factor was out the window before the mods. Prior to the tri-amplification, my plan was to replace the LE15B with 2235's, however the cost of going that route and questionable history on some of the eBay units (not knowing if the mass ring was present, etc.) deterred me from ever doing that and I decided to save the cash for the 077/2405 modification instead.