WhIch JBL Drivers Horns Xovers and Woofers Would give you most musical DIY system?

[vinny]

need suggestion on the ultimate 16ohm Jbl components including crossovers to give you the most musical and most efficient jbl diy system possible and work together in synergy.

[1audiohack]

Hi Vinny;

You are really embarking on sound system design, so:

Music only?

How big is your listening space?

Critical listening distance?

How loud must the system play average and peak? In real numbers, dB SPL.

What is the required bandwidth? 40-16kHz is fairly easy, 16-24kHz, not so easy.

Degree of component obtainability?

Budget?

Does your skill set include cabinette making and electroacoustic test and measurement?

???

This may seem like a put off but like that cat in the tree answered Alice, if you don't know where you're going, it really doesn't matter which way you turn.

Many here can and will fill a sugestion list for you but your goals should first be defined.

All the best,
Barry.

[ivica]

need suggestion on the ultimate 16ohm Jbl components including crossovers to give you the most musical and most efficient jbl diy system possible and work together in synergy.

Hi vinny,

If talking about active 4-way system may can start from
2269 + 2202 + 476Be + 2405,
Or 2269 & 2216nd & 2251 & D2430K
HORN ??? (M2, or PT-H95HF.....)
Xover active Xilica XP4080

Regards
Ivica

[Mr. Widget]

Hi Vinny;

You are really embarking on sound system design, so:

Music only?

How big is your listening space?

Critical listening distance?

How loud must the system play average and peak? In real numbers, dB SPL.

What is the required bandwidth? 40-16kHz is fairly easy, 16-24kHz, not so easy.

Degree of component obtainability?

Budget?

Does your skill set include cabinette making and electroacoustic test and measurement?

???

This may seem like a put off but like that cat in the tree answered Alice, if you don't know where you're going, it really doesn't matter which way you turn.

Many here can and will fill a sugestion list for you but your goals should first be defined.

All the best,
Barry.Everything he said plus why 16 ohms and when you say ultimate, do you mean cost is no object?


Widget

[grumpy]

Guessing old tube amps... but this is just audio bench racing as most "ultimate" JBL components are unobtainable and would further require many years of experience to assemble optimally ... assuming those "ultimate" components would even play nice together...

[Ian Mackenzie]

Diy Everest- E145 , 2426 on Everest horn , 2405

There is a diy renaissance of this venerable system

[Mr. Widget]

Guessing old tube amps... That'd be my guess too, but then my idea of "ultimate" kinda goes out the window. ;)

Then again, there are many ideas of "ultimate". Below are two very different ultimates, both in red.


Widget

[grumpy]

Diy Everest- E145 , 2426 on Everest horn , 2405

There is a diy renaissance of this venerable system

Yes, and a specific enough topic to have a useful conversation about.
Has there been more activity beyond the large-format driver horn being fashioned?
(perhaps point me in a PM)

To me, musing about "most musical" and "ultimate" is like asking what spaghetti sauce is "best."
So I'll bow out now.

edit: funny unintended connection between Ferrari and spaghetti...

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Grump,

I have not looked hard beyond chatter about this...
My post was more about diy that actually delivers an outcome

The question was do open it needed a solution, not s shopping list

[Lee in Montreal]

need suggestion on the ultimate 16ohm Jbl components including crossovers to give you the most musical and most efficient jbl diy system possible and work together in synergy.

Why 16 ohms (if I may ask) ? The 2245 woofer was never produced in 16 ohms and it happens to be one of JBL's best creation. ;-)

I don't know what is your expertise, but there are so many ways to reach your goal.

Look at the components in this picture. This is good stuff you can use. That's a 4345 BTW ;-)

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=53557&d=1320569868

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think it's got to be a 100 Db sensitivity job as any k2 parts need massive horse power according to reviewer

I think this falls in Seve Schell's territory

It could be an Altec VOT

The only modem equivalent that my lovely wife would allow is a diy OMA Monarch

drivers like the E145 come to mind

A system with 100 db+ sensitivity would have plenty of snap!

[berga12]

That'd be my guess too, but then my idea of "ultimate" kinda goes out the window. ;)

Then again, there are many ideas of "ultimate". Below are two very different ultimates, both in red.


Widget


Sorry Widget to correct you, but I'm italian, and there is only one "ultimate" that can be defined as a Ferrari. Last twin turbo monster.

76792

Obiviously I'm just Kidding.


For me the question is another one, which kind of system did he listen in his life, which one likes best and how much he is willing to spend etc etc...

What does it mean "ultimate"..... in this hobby there is no ultimate. Today you like red, tommorw yellow, the day after....white........and not every time you have the same amount of money to spend! :crying:

[edgewound]

need suggestion on the ultimate 16ohm Jbl components including crossovers to give you the most musical and most efficient jbl diy system possible and work together in synergy.

Since the qualifiers are 16 ohms and efficient, the answer is pretty easy.

130A(2220) with LE85(2420) with Radian diaphragm/HL91 with custom crossover with Solen capacitors and aircore inductors crossed over assymetrically somewhere around 1800hz. Alnico Drivers rebuilt and recharged for full capability in a C50 style enclosure.

Very musical and fun to listen to. Drive it with at least 200 watts/channel if using solid state amp. Headroom is your friend.

[Tony Sullivan]

Since the qualifiers are 16 ohms and efficient, the answer is pretty easy.

130A(2220) with LE85(2420) with Radian diaphragm/HL91 with custom crossover with Solen capacitors and aircore inductors crossed over assymetrically somewhere around 1800hz. Alnico Drivers rebuilt and recharged for full capability in a C50 style enclosure.

Very musical and fun to listen to. Drive it with at least 200 watts/channel if using solid state amp. Headroom is your friend.
Since the Radian diaphragm is being recommended will a pair of 175s do just as well?
Do you have or could you direct me to a schematic?
Thank you very much

[edgewound]

Since the Radian diaphragm is being recommended will a pair of 175s do just as well?
Do you have or could you direct me to a schematic?
Thank you very much

You can use a 175, which this system did, as long as it's not an early narrow gap model. 2410/2421/2460/2470 will work as well with a new diaphragm. I didn't do anything to this pair of 175s in order to preserve the wax seals per the customer and they swept great. The LE85/2420/2421 is a stronger motor which will yield increased upper end reach.

Here's the basic circuit. I ended up tuning it by ear by adding an additional 10uf cap in series with C2 which yields 8uf...and added a mechanical 50 watt L-Pad. Seems it brought the hi pass up to ~1800 or so. I can't really explain what happened electrically in detail, it just sounded right.
76801

[Tony Sullivan]

You can use a 175, which this system did, as long as it's not an early narrow gap model. 2410/2421/2460/2470 will work as well with a new diaphragm. I didn't do anything to this pair of 175s in order to preserve the wax seals per the customer and they swept great. The LE85/2420/2421 is a stronger motor which will yield increased upper end reach.

Here's the basic circuit. I ended up tuning it by ear by adding an additional 10uf cap in series with C2 which yields 8uf...and added a mechanical 50 watt L-Pad. Seems it brought the hi pass up to ~1800 or so. I can't really explain what happened electrically in detail, it just sounded right.

Thank you!
Not following what you're telling about the caps in series netting you 8uF though?
In series means subtractive, correct?
If 8uF was what you settled on and liked, could I just use an 8uF to start with?
I like your approach, less is more!
Thank you for taking the time to put this up

[edgewound]

Thank you!
Not following what you're telling about the caps in series netting you 8uF though?
In series means subtractive, correct?
If 8uF was what you settled on and liked, could I just use an 8uF to start with?
I like your approach, less is more!
Thank you for taking the time to put this up

Sure....start with the 8uF. You won't hurt anything...although my circuit is probably violating all sorts of audiophile CC&Rs...but frankly I don't care. It's what sounded best to my musician ears on many familiar great recordings on CD. I added the extra cap so I didn't need to desolder and muck up the other components, and Solen 400V caps aren't particularly cheap. The 30uF had too much mid through the 175 which made it sound harsh so I had to tame it. The 6dB/oct roll-off on the 130A(reconed to 2220) blended very nicely with the 18dB/oct roll-in with the 175.

And....You're most welcome.

[Tony Sullivan]

Sure....start with the 8uF. You won't hurt anything...although my circuit is probably violating all sorts of audiophile CC&Rs...but frankly I don't care. It's what sounded best to my musician ears on many familiar great recordings on CD. I added the extra cap so I didn't need to desolder and muck up the other components, and Solen 400V caps aren't particularly cheap. The 30uF had too much mid through the 175 which made it sound harsh so I had to tame it. The 6dB/oct roll-off on the 130A(reconed to 2220) blended very nicely with the 18dB/oct roll-in with the 175.

And....You're most welcome.
Thank you again for being so gracious
Makes sense now but what I still do not understand is how 30.61uF less 10.2uF gave you 8uF?
I'm thinking it would be 20.41uF unless I just don't get how caps in series work

[edgewound]

Thank you again for being so gracious
Makes sense now but what I still do not understand is how 30.61uF less 10.2uF gave you 8uF?
I'm thinking it would be 20.41uF unless I just don't get how caps in series work

It helps to use a capacitance meter to measure the capacitance of the capacitors in series or parallel for that matter. But you can also Google a capacitor calculator and it will tell you. Putting capacitors in parallel doubles of the value but in series it's some other formula such as a reciprocal of certain numbers. I don't remember the formula off the top of my head.

[Tony Sullivan]

It helps to use a capacitance meter to measure the capacitance of the capacitors in series or parallel for that matter. But you can also Google a capacitor calculator and it will tell you. Putting capacitors in parallel doubles of the value but in series it's some other formula such as a reciprocal of certain numbers. I don't remember the formula off the top of my head.
Thank you - I figured there was more to it with which I was not familiar
I always check new caps before installing in a circuit but have never had occasion to verify cumulative values due to in series wiring
I have only ever wired caps in parallel to achieve a larger target value
Thank you again for a good idea - you have planted a seed

[Jan Daugaard]

This is the formula for capacitors in series:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_and_parallel_circuits#Capacitors

In this case, we have 1 / (1 / 30.61µF + 1 / 10.2µF) = ca. 7.65µF

[Tony Sullivan]

This is the formula for capacitors in series:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_and_parallel_circuits#Capacitors

In this case, we have 1 / (1 / 30.61µF + 1 / 10.2µF) = ca. 7.65µF
Thank you my friend

[edgewound]

This is the formula for capacitors in series:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_and_parallel_circuits#Capacitors

In this case, we have 1 / (1 / 30.61µF + 1 / 10.2µF) = ca. 7.65µF

Thanks, Jan.

It's interesting because this is the same formula for parallel impedance.

[turnitdown]

Where does one acquire the Everest horn from the DD66000? I love their looks and obvious sonic contribution.

[speakerdave]

There is a sound reinforcement near-equivalent which shows up from time to time on the second-hand market from sound system tearouts in churches and the like.

2346 horn from the 4660A system.

[turnitdown]

I was surprised to see the PA version uses readily available drivers.

I have never heard the horn. Its lower loading frequency aside, does it have that big sound of the 2344?

On the surface it would seem a nice home build on top of a 2235.

[Lee in Montreal]

There is a sound reinforcement near-equivalent which shows up from time to time on the second-hand market from sound system tearouts in churches and the like.

2346 horn from the 4660A system.

I am curious, what was the 4660's purpose? What type of SR?

http://hifido.co.jp/photo/17/561/56108/c.jpg

[turnitdown]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?5629-Cross-over-schematics-for-the-4660

[RMC]

If my memory is correct, this is an invention by Don Keele while at JBL to cover a rectangular area. Clever.

Please see:

D. B. Keele, "A Loudspeaker Horn that covers A Flat Rectangular Area From an Oblique Angle", AES, 74th Convention, 1983, October 8 -12, New York. Available on the Net.

Page one explains the purpose and SR use of it, and on pages 9 and following you can see Don's sketches and preliminary pictures of the defined coverage horn... to which they added a 2225H (4660) and later on a 2226 HPL (4660A).

Richard

[toddalin]

I am curious, what was the 4660's purpose? What type of SR?

http://hifido.co.jp/photo/17/561/56108/c.jpg

Big-Azzed ceiling speakers.