CD player/changer

[quindecima]

My CD changer just went south for all time and It's not a high end unit and I had it fixed once before so I need to get a new one or a quality used one. What is a good unit that I should look at?

[BMWCCA]

I bought a TEAC CD-P650-B (http://www.teac.com/product/cd-p650/)nearly two-years ago when I was looking for an elegant way to connect an iPod to one of my systems. It's a well-made single-disc player with a good DAC (PCM1791A Burr Brown) that has quite a bit of versatility in addition to a USB direct iPod connectivity. TEAC sells direct on Amazon and when I got mine it was around $120, shipped. It's gotten a bit more popular recently and the price has crept up a bit, but it's still a good buy. B&H still shows it for $119 shipping included and no tax outside NY. Most reviews are excellent. The bad ones simply show that not everyone has even a clue as to how audio works!

I consider it a fantastic USB iPod and MP3 player with a CD player as an added bonus. I should probably buy one for each of my systems.

[quindecima]

Good stuff, I will look at that one. I would rather have a multiple cd player but will settle for a single if its better.

[Ducatista47]

Again a single disc player, but the Onkyo C-7030 I purchased this year is designed for high quality audio and delivers for me. I'll put it up against the expensive units. Since Gibson purchased Onkyo the quality has gone up.

[NickH]

I've been using a emotiva erc2 for a few years now. They have a newer model out and I can't speak for that one. I know there's some on this forum who don't like there products. But all there products I've had have been excellent. The erc2 is may with excellent engineering practices in audio design.all circuits are completely compartmentalized. The player is a bit more then the other 2 suggested but it it does have a reputation as a bit of a giant slayer.

Nick

[Mr. Widget]

If you would like an elevated level of performance at a moderate cost, I'd recommend going with virtually any CD player or changer equipped with a S/PIDF output and a Byrston BDA-1. I've seen them lately on the used market for $600. This DAC with any decent disc spinner will sound pretty darned close to the best possible in digital playback options.


Widget

[LowPhreak]

Again a single disc player, but the Onkyo C-7030 I purchased this year is designed for high quality audio and delivers for me. I'll put it up against the expensive units. Since Gibson purchased Onkyo the quality has gone up.

Ducatista, how's the low end on that model? I've seen it around and for the money, it gets praise but I've not been able to hear it yet. I'm happy with the definition, timing, and coherence of my Marantz CD6005, especially on the prog rock I listen to which can be complex, but sometimes I yearn for just a tad more richness in the lows, like if it had +1dB from the mid-100's Hz and lower.

Widget - I'd take your recommendation on the Bryston but these days, I have to do things on the "even cheaper than a great deal" basis. :(

[quindecima]

I haven't seen any of those bryston's for less than 1K :(

[Ducatista47]

Ducatista, how's the low end on that model? I've seen it around and for the money, it gets praise but I've not been able to hear it yet. I'm happy with the definition, timing, and coherence of my Marantz CD6005, especially on the prog rock I listen to which can be complex, but sometimes I yearn for just a tad more richness in the lows, like if it had +1dB from the mid-100's Hz and lower.

I only gave the native player a brief trial. I use my CD players (and other digital sources) coax out to an outboard DAC. The Onkyo sounded great to me before that, not surprising as it was designed for high end playback, but it was a limited audition. Too limited to laser in on just 100dB down. I think I paid $150-160 for it.

It is probably irrelevant to your question that it sounds faultless as a digital source. As for your +1dB quest, I have turned to parametric EQ for such desires. The analog devices have shelving as well as full parametric capability. They can do almost anything. A boost for 100Hz down would be a simple shelving solution. One of the nice things about analog parametric, there is no footprint on regions not chosen if the master output is not boosted or cut.

Widget, my DAC has COAX and USB as well as optical input, and I sincerely believe the COAX is better than optical, as currently practiced.

Clark

[Mr. Widget]

Widget, my DAC has COAX and USB as well as optical input, and I sincerely believe the COAX is better than optical, as currently practiced.Yep, my Bryston BDA-1 is the same and that's why I suggested that anyone using it get a CD player or transport with a S/PDIF output. The optical Toslink type connection may be equally good in some DACs, but it isn't quite as good in my comparison. A BNC S/PIDIF connection is generally considered the best.


Widget

[LowPhreak]

I only gave the native player a brief trial. I use my CD players (and other digital sources) coax out to an outboard DAC. The Onkyo sounded great to me before that, not surprising as it was designed for high end playback, but it was a limited audition. Too limited to laser in on just 100dB down. I think I paid $150-160 for it.

It is probably irrelevant to your question that it sounds faultless as a digital source. As for your +1dB quest, I have turned to parametric EQ for such desires. The analog devices have shelving as well as full parametric capability. They can do almost anything. A boost for 100Hz down would be a simple shelving solution. One of the nice things about analog parametric, there is no footprint on regions not chosen if the master output is not boosted or cut.



Thanks for the info. I have EQ via a Soundcraftsmen, but changing the curve back when I change sources would be more of a hassle than just having a CD source with the response I'm after, and leaving the EQ settings put.

[SEAWOLF97]

I had all but forgotten CD's until I discovered that some DVD players have
24/192 DAC's. Tried a couple and settled on a Panasonic. Was very happy.

Then an ARCAM CD player became mine with it's extraordinary "Ring DAC"
.... http://www.stereophile.com/cdplayers/251/

About the Ring DAC: This is the same 24-bit-capable DAC (except for the output-stage rework mentioned above) used in the Alpha 9. Algorithmically, it's virtually identical to what you get in dCS's own Elgar, which earned an A+ rating in Stereophile's "Recommended Components" and would set you back a cool $12,000—without a transport. What makes the Ring DAC unique is that it provides something of a middle ground between multi-bit and single-bit converters. It uses a five-bit DAC (thereby having fewer steps in the resistor ladder, and better precision getting the smallest values right), and 64x oversampling (a lower rate than that of 1-bit DACs, which makes it less prone to timing errors and jitter).

The "Ring" in Ring DAC isn't from Wagner—it comes from a process that continually varies the number and positions of the current sources for the DAC for each sample, sort of like a car's rotary distributor—thus "Ring." This randomizes the small variations in the current sources throughout the quantizing range. As a result, these variations are transformed into random white noise, which is then moved out of the audio frequency range (above 100kHz, actually) by fourth-order noise shaping. This high-frequency detritus is then filtered out in the analog domain.
Although forward—perhaps "unobscured" would be a better description—the CD23 offered as good a sense of depth and lateral definition as I've heard from CD playback.

Needless to say... CD playback is back on my mainstream , but those DVD players are a good bet too , only downside is not as many controls. :(

[Ducatista47]

Yep, my Bryston BDA-1 is the same and that's why I suggested that anyone using it get a CD player or transport with a S/PDIF output. The optical Toslink type connection may be equally good in some DACs, but it isn't quite as good in my comparison. A BNC S/PIDIF connection is generally considered the best.


Widget
I am confused. Both COAX and Toslink are S/PDIF. It sounds like you are talking about a BNC COAX (as opposed to RCA terminated COAX)? I was speaking to COAX being a better implementation of S/PDIF than optical (Toslink), not which termination is used on COAX.

If I am clear so far, I would not doubt that BNC has some mechanical advantages over RCA in pro use. In home use without frequent connect/disconnect cycles I suspect any advantages would be mechanical rather than sonic. I know that RCA was a poor choice for an audio standard for pro use, but at home I do not need to care about advantages which become theoretical there. I personally prefer XLR (for the connections and receptacles, not for noise cancelling) over BNC or RCA and use it where I can, but fully shielded XLR COAX is not an off the shelf item here. It is usually assumed XLR does not need shielding because of its usual applications, but S/PDIF COAX needs to be fully shielded, of course.

Anyway, is BNC COAX S/PDIF (Sony/Philips Interconnect Digital Format) a seldom seen option outside the pro scene? I have not encountered it, in my ignorance and price range.

[Mr. Widget]

I am confused. Both COAX and Toslink are S/PDIF.I see what you mean... when I checked on Wikipedia, they maintain that both digital cable types, coax and optical use the S/PIDF protocol. In my world we refer to copper coax as S/PIDF and optical as Toslink. The two formats respectively from Sony/Phillips and Toshiba.

In any case, my experience concurs with yours that coax digital sounds better than optical. I wouldn't definitively say that this is always the case, but with the associated equipment I have used it is.

Regarding BNC connectors, these are used in the RF field and with lab equipment. They do offer a measurably superior connection. A digital signal is a high frequency square wave signal so it is possible that having exceptional high frequency response may be beneficial... I'm not certain, but it wouldn't surprise me. Many of the better DACs offer BNC connections. The Bryston I have offers all current formats.


Widget

[SEAWOLF97]

Regarding BNC connectors, these are used in the RF field and with lab equipment. They do offer a measurably superior connection. A digital signal is a high frequency square wave signal so it is possible that having exceptional high frequency response may be beneficial... I'm not certain, but it wouldn't surprise me. Many of the better DACs offer BNC connections. The Bryston I have offers all current formats.


Widget

>>Regarding BNC connectors

BTN (b4 the net), we called them "British Nut Connectors" , and if so then "BNC connectors" would be
BN connectors connectors. But I was wrong ...... :(

Origin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BNC_connector

"The connector was named the BNC (for Bayonet Neill–Concelman) after its bayonet mount locking mechanism and its inventors, Paul Neill and Carl Concelman.[1] Neill worked at Bell Labs and also invented the N connector; Concelman worked at Amphenol and also invented the C connector. A backronym has been mistakenly applied to it: British Naval Connector."


I am confused. Both COAX and Toslink are S/PDIF. It sounds like you are talking about a BNC COAX (as opposed to RCA terminated COAX)? I was speaking to COAX being a better implementation of S/PDIF than optical (Toslink), not which termination is used on COAX.

If I am clear so far, I would not doubt that BNC has some mechanical advantages over RCA in pro use. In home use without frequent connect/disconnect cycles I suspect any advantages would be mechanical rather than sonic. I know that RCA was a poor choice for an audio standard for pro use, but at home I do not need to care about advantages which become theoretical there. I personally prefer XLR (for the connections and receptacles, not for noise cancelling) over BNC or RCA and use it where I can, but fully shielded XLR COAX is not an off the shelf item here. It is usually assumed XLR does not need shielding because of its usual applications, but S/PDIF COAX needs to be fully shielded, of course.

Anyway, is BNC COAX S/PDIF (Sony/Philips Interconnect Digital Format) a seldom seen option outside the pro scene? I have not encountered it, in my ignorance and price range.

The audio s/pdif that I use (and have only seen) is Toslink and RCA. Never seen a deck with BNC.

Only BNC I ever worked with was 10base2.

[Krunchy]

If you would like an elevated level of performance at a moderate cost, I'd recommend going with virtually any CD player or changer equipped with a S/PIDF output and a Byrston BDA-1. I've seen them lately on the used market for $600. This DAC with any decent disc spinner will sound pretty darned close to the best possible in digital playback options. Widget

Hi Widget, I've been thinking of getting a new cd player along with a DAC, never used one before but I've been curious about them for a while now. I pulled the trigger on Clark's Onkyo and now I would like to know some more about the DAC.
I know there was a thread either dedicated to or veered off onto the topic of DACs but cant seem to find it now.

I was looking at a picture of the Bryston's rear panel and was wondering if you could clarify some things. On the back panel SPIDF 1 & 2 look like regular RCA (digital Coax) interconnects, and S/PDIF 3 & 4 look kind of like traditional female Coaxial cable interconnects (threaded?), hard to tell from the angles of the pictures I've seen since they're always head on shots. My Pre-Amp does not have any SPDIF input so I guess I would default to using the XLR analog outputs.
The Single Ended Analog outputs I would imagine are regular RCAs ?. If a Pre-Amp does not have an SPDIF input it would be impossible to use the Output from the Bryston, kinda silly questions but I am not familiar with this stuff & want to make sure I understand it correctly.
Upon further inspection I realize this unit does not have analog inputs does it, is that common for D/ACs?


Widget, my DAC has COAX and USB as well as optical input, and I sincerely believe the COAX is better than optical, as currently practiced. Clark

So when you guys talk about using Coax cable do you mean an RCA terminated Coaxial audio interconnect (as per link below)? Being behind the times as it were to me when I hear Coaxial cable I think of the traditional TV cable with threaded ends.

http://www.amazon.com/C2G-Cables-29114-Velocity-Digital/dp/B0002J2B7E/ref=sr_1_3?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1449706853&sr=1-3&keywords=coaxial+cable+3+feet

[Krunchy]

I bought a TEAC CD-P650-B (http://www.teac.com/product/cd-p650/)nearly two-years ago when I was looking for an elegant way to connect an iPod to one of my systems. It's a well-made single-disc player with a good DAC (PCM1791A Burr Brown) that has quite a bit of versatility in addition to a USB direct iPod connectivity. TEAC sells direct on Amazon and when I got mine it was around $120, shipped. It's gotten a bit more popular recently and the price has crept up a bit, but it's still a good buy. B&H still shows it for $119 shipping included and no tax outside NY. Most reviews are excellent. The bad ones simply show that not everyone has even a clue as to how audio works!

I consider it a fantastic USB iPod and MP3 player with a CD player as an added bonus. I should probably buy one for each of my systems.

Probably not a bad idea considering the price (very close to the Onkyo), as much as I dislike my ipod sometimes I cant negate the convenience factor so the USB port is quite a nice feature. Does that unit have a S/PDIF or any Digital output Phil, I did not see it in the specs. The CD to USB Recording feature looks really interesting (almost like a tape deck built in :D ), have you used it & if so what's your take on it?

[BMWCCA]

Probably not a bad idea considering the price (very close to the Onkyo), as much as I dislike my ipod sometimes I cant negate the convenience factor so the USB port is quite a nice feature. Does that unit have a S/PDIF or any Digital output Phil, I did not see it in the specs. The CD to USB Recording feature looks really interesting (almost like a tape deck built in :D ), have you used it & if so what's your take on it?
Yes, it has optical digital output (Toslink), but I'm using it in a system without an outboard DAC.
I've also not used it as a recorder to an SD card as I've not found a need for that feature so far.

The TEAC continues to work well for me with the iPod and as a CD deck in a system connected to any of a dozen different speakers for comparison. I'd still recommend it.
:thmbsup:

[Ducatista47]

I was looking at a picture of the Bryston's rear panel and was wondering if you could clarify some things. On the back panel SPIDF 1 & 2 look like regular RCA (digital Coax) interconnects, and S/PDIF 3 & 4 look kind of like traditional female Coaxial cable interconnects (threaded?), hard to tell from the angles of the pictures I've seen since they're always head on shots. My Pre-Amp does not have any SPDIF input so I guess I would default to using the XLR analog outputs.
The Single Ended Analog outputs I would imagine are regular RCAs ?. If a Pre-Amp does not have an SPDIF input it would be impossible to use the Output from the Bryston, kinda silly questions but I am not familiar with this stuff & want to make sure I understand it correctly.
Upon further inspection I realize this unit does not have analog inputs does it, is that common for D/ACs?



So when you guys talk about using Coax cable do you mean an RCA terminated Coaxial audio interconnect (as per link below)? Being behind the times as it were to me when I hear Coaxial cable I think of the traditional TV cable with threaded ends.


S/PDIF 3 & 4 appear to be BNC COAX inputs. BNC is, if I remember correctly, bayonet fittings. They rotate to lock. They are nice. Almost zero insertion force, the rotation to lock it stresses the socket on the device much less than shoving an RCA end in. And, as Widget said, very positive engagement.

RCA COAX is different from normal RCA interconnects, being fully shielded. They are designed to carry digital, rather than analog, signals. BNC and RCA COAX, and TOSLINK optical cable, all carry digital signals.

There is no S/PDIF input of any kind on your preamp because S/PDIF transmits digital signals and needs to go into a DAC. Your preamp is an analog only device. There is a class of audio amplifiers that have built in DACs, home theater amps and receivers. The usual digital input for them is HDMI, the type modern TVs use. My Sony Blu-ray players have HDMI and RCA COAX outputs. It is getting harder to find Optical disc players with RCA COAX, a shame really. The Onkyo, as you know, has digital out in the form of RCA COAX. The better CD players still do.

PS The S/PDIF output on the Bryston is, I assume, a pass through circuit, sending the digital signal through, possibly unmodified.

[Krunchy]

Thanks for clarifying Clark, I appreciate it. The Onkyo should be here Friday, looks like a very nice unit, very excited :).
Now I just have to find a good D/AC unit within budget.

[Ducatista47]

Thanks for clarifying Clark, I appreciate it. The Onkyo should be here Friday, looks like a very nice unit, very excited :).
Now I just have to find a good D/AC unit within budget.

I had been using a Blu-ray player before the Onkyo CD player and the instantaneous action of the remote and on unit commands was startling. Blu-ray players are very complex and are sluggish to respond to commands. The tray, for instance, is moving before my finger is off the button. By all means try the Onkyo directly into your rig without a DAC. It is a high fidelity unit and may do the job for you until you get a DAC.

[Krunchy]

It'll be a few weeks (understatement, what with the holidays) before I get things up and running in there, doing a major overhaul of the space. Room is going to be re-carpeted and de-cluttered as much as possible. I'll keep an eye out for a D/AC in the meantime but I will definitely set up the Onkyo into the mix when I get it.

[Krunchy]

Not sure if this is where I should be posting this but I cant seem to find the one that was on this particular topic, please excuse me.
When I'm working I have one computer with all/most of my cds in it for convenience.
I recently purchased a nice DAC for my main system and just for fun I hooked it up to my pc, the difference in sound was really quite impressive but since that particular unit was meant to go with my 4345 set-up I knew it wasn't going to stay in my office rig. So I started looking for something much less expensive for the computer which I feeds into my stereo amp. I found this great little unit for $79.00. All analog inputs & out (my other one was all digital inputs). I found this Monoprice 11567 for $79.00 on amazon. It sounds really nice, really brings out the music in a very satisfying fashion, before that the music was very muffled & basically lifeless, now its really come alive. I know there are tons of these out there from different mfgs. but I picked this one after looking a few different models in different price ranges.
If you listen to any music through your computer you may want to give it a shot, it wont break the bank and its really quite nice.
The unit is 3.5"w X 5.12"d X 2"h.

Just a thought. :)