Jbl m2 horn!

[iskesha]

Hi Dear Friends!
I need JBL M2 horns in any condition or at least one!
May be technical documentation for production!
I'm waiting for your message.
Many Thanks!
WITH GREAT RESPECT!
Iskander

[Don C]

The horns are protected by patent and cannot be reproduced.

[Mr. Widget]

The horns are protected by patent and cannot be reproduced.Perhaps: Protected by a patent and shouldn't be stolen? ;)


Widget

[ivica]

Perhaps: Protected by a patent and shouldn't be stolen? ;)

Widget

Hi Mr.Widget,

What is patent protected, exact dimensions, curves, cross-section surface flare, diffraction slot shape, kind of driver connection (one of the worst design ever seen),
I can not imagine what kind of the mentioned can be protected, as almost any of the mentioned, is well known for decades.
I can imagine that exact replica can be protected, as a "kind of copy protection", but almost the same behavior can be get with some amount of dimension differences...

It would be nice if we can read somewhere what is the "point" while M2 horn surface walls have been calculated, not to mention the availability of the measurements data
of the horn acoustic impedance, real dispersion characteristics (using high resolution FR data, so possible internal reflections can be seen,...).
Most of the time marketing data are available.

Regards
Ivica

[iskesha]

OK!
I understood but I will look for them and when I will find I will help another!!!:)
I need the pair of JBL 2216nd also!
Have somebody these for sale?
Kind Regards!
iskesha

[Mr. Widget]

Hi Mr.Widget,

What is patent protected...? Hell if I know. I'm not a patent attorney!


Widget

[Cyclotronguy]

Patents are intended to protect the consumer from fraud....... the maker, not so much. That being said the effort and expense to protect IP is upon the patent or trademark holder..... which is a polite way of saying that gray market goods sold to the un-informed eventually hits us all in the bill fold.

Cyclotronguy

[Ed Zeppeli]

I'd be willing to be that if you could make horns with the same response patterns but a different look you'd be good to go. But on the other hand if you took the 'cat's ass' out of them you may just take the cat's ass outta them, if catch my drift.

:)

[Lee in Montreal]

Are D2 drivers now available?

http://jblpro.com/www/jbl-story/innovation/technology/transducers/d2#.VY10xecVqf4

What else would you bolt on an M2 horn if it was designed specifically for the D2?

[Don C]

They were available for order for a while, and pretty cheap too. But apparently it was a mistake and you need a system serial number to order them now.
I'm going to try these 2452Hs (http://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-352328-001x-compression-driver-2452h/).

[Lee in Montreal]

They were available for order for a while, and pretty cheap too. But apparently it was a mistake and you need a system serial number to order them now.
I'm going to try these 2452Hs (http://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-352328-001x-compression-driver-2452h/).

Well. Two very different beasts. The D2 has two diaphragms and have a very, very wide frequency range.

[Don C]

Very diffenent beasts with the same bolt circle dimensions and throat size.

[Lee in Montreal]

Patents are intended to protect the consumer from fraud....... the maker, not so much. That being said the effort and expense to protect IP is upon the patent or trademark holder..... which is a polite way of saying that gray market goods sold to the un-informed eventually hits us all in the bill fold.

Cyclotronguy

I'd say it protects the engineer or industry more than it protects the consumer.

Lee

[dr_gallup]

I'd say it protects the engineer or industry more than it protects the consumer.

Lee

The whole idea of the patent system is to give the inventor legal protection against copying for the life of the patent, after that the intellectual property is in the public domain and anyone is free to copy.

If you want to do just a little work, the US Patent Office has a great searchable database. You can search by key words, company names, inventor names, dates and many other things. Takes a small amount of time to learn how to craft the queries but you can drill down through a mountain of data. For instance, here is a link (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.htm&r=0&f=S&l=50&d=PTXT&RS=%28%28IN%2FGallup+AND+AN%2FLucas%29+OR+AN%2FSAG EM%29&Refine=Refine+Search&Query=IN%2FGallup+AND+%28AN%2FLucas+OR+AN%2FSAGEM% 29) to some of my patents.

[audiomagnate]

Used D2's are always available on that auction site for $980/pair. I've seen them on Craigs for as low as $700/pair. Big venues use them by the dozen in their overhead arrays. That's the real market for them.

[Lee in Montreal]

Used D2's are always available on that auction site for $980/pair. if the Canadian currency was nit that low, I would definitel grab a pair.

[ivica]

Used D2's are always available on that auction site for $980/pair. I've seen them on Craigs for as low as $700/pair. Big venues use them by the dozen in their overhead arrays. That's the real market for them.


HI
I think our forum member has very bad experience with D2 drivers from auction.

Regards
IVICA

[Wagner]

The horns are protected by patent and cannot be reproduced.
Holding a patent versus actually applying and enforcing it is another matter entirely; especially when the violator is "over seas" someplace
When dealing with the eastern euro folks and the chinese, this "situation" at times (as in MOST of the time) can be, at best, untenable for all intents and purposes
Very little that they have not already stolen when it comes to consumer goods, intellectual property and commodities and no one here in a position to do so has the stones to do anything meaningful in order to try and put it to an end
Besides the fact that patents for mechanical designs can often times be easily subverted with the simplest of changes to a given design, even cosmetic

Then it's off to court we go

"3D" printing's going to make the game even more fun once it becomes commonplace

Exactly which "M2" horn are we talking about here anyway?

[ivica]

Holding a patent versus actually applying and enforcing it is another matter entirely; especially when the violator is "over seas" someplace
When dealing with the eastern euro folks and the Chinese, this "situation" at times (as in MOST of the time) can be, at best, untenable for all intents and purposes
Very little that they have not already stolen when it comes to consumer goods, intellectual property and commodities and no one here in a position to do so has the stones to do anything meaningful in order to try and put it to an end
Besides the fact that patents for mechanical designs can often times be easily subverted with the simplest of changes to a given design, even cosmetic
Then it's off to court we go
"3D" printing's going to make the game even more fun once it becomes commonplace
Exactly which "M2" horn are we talking about here anyway?

Hi Wagner,

I believe that a kind of thief can be found all round the Globe, and I do not believe that they are only staying in Eastern Europe and China. What can be a real patent is another problem too.
It would be difficult to patent exponential horn cross section surface flare, or introducing a kind of sound diffraction due to the kind of slot present in the horn throat. If such can be patent protected, then I can say that M2 horn has KARLSON-tube in the M2 throat, using 4-Karlson slits, and there are a lot of other producers applying a kind of the sound diffraction in the horn throat.
Using 3-D printer in order to copy M2 horn would not be the the best solution, if the price of the whole equipment necessary to do that has to be aware of, while the original 'plastic' can be get for about 250$.

regards
ivica

[Wagner]

Hi Wagner,

I believe that a kind of thief can be found all round the Globe, and I do not believe that they are only staying in Eastern Europe and China.

Of course, intellectual thieves are everywhere, but I did not say that they held the title exclusively; what I DID imply and will clarify here now (my intent and meaning) is that those two parts of the World ARE the worst and most prolific offenders (for more than a few reasons, main being they are almost impossible to call to account and prosecute for their activities)

These are simply the facts of the matter

[ivica]

Of course, intellectual thieves are everywhere, but I did not say that they held the title exclusively; what I DID imply and will clarify here now (my intent and meaning) is that those two parts of the World ARE the worst and most prolific offenders (for more than a few reasons, main being they are almost impossible to call to account and prosecute for their activities)

These are simply the facts of the matter

Hi Wagner,

In their countries, or in your country?
Are mentioned patent protected by their country patent authority, or your country patent authority ?
May be they can offer the goods to the other countries then your.....

In history there were several times conclusions such as You have said:
"These are simply the facts of the matter"
and most of them were finished as a great human disaster.

But what can be patented about the mentioned M2 horn, an example, driver-to-horn mounting ?
If that is patent protected, that would be technical shame for the JBL, as I can not imagine the worst solution.

regards
ivica

[Wagner]

Hi Wagner,

In their countries, or in your country?
Are mentioned patent protected by their country patent authority, or your country patent authority ?
May be they can offer the goods to the other countries then your.....

In history there were several times conclusions such as You have said:
"These are simply the facts of the matter"
and most of them were finished as a great human disaster.

But what can be patented about the mentioned M2 horn, an example, driver-to-horn mounting ?
If that is patent protected, that would be technical shame for the JBL, as I can not imagine the worst solution.

regards
ivica

What I said was neither a slur or a misrepresentation of any population at large, OR AN INDICTMENT OF THE ENTIRE POPULATION, rather a reference to the operating bases of well organized, well protected (and documented) criminal activities; counterfeit goods and intellectual/electronic data/property thefts are a problem in today's World and the two greatest offenders (when it comes to these crimes) are the countries which were once part of the former soviet union (including russia) and china

And THAT is a FACTUAL statement

It has been that way since the end of the Second World War and covers the ground and everything from missile and weapons technology to pirated CeeDees and everything in between, including but not limited to: popular Hollywood movies (since the days of VHS), popular music titles (the cassette tape and phonograph record), vacuum tubes............even brand name hand tools all the way to the present, the digital era (which has exacerbated and accelerated these activities exponentially)
"Chip" technology and architecture (theft via reverse engineering) as well...................the list(s) goes on and on

Extremely popular (and lucrative) today is just the outright theft of monies using data harvesting (a favorite of the russian mafia here in the Bay Area) The Golden Gate Bridge being one of their favorite locales for their "harvesting"

As for which countries? The crimes, or components of the crimes occur in both; "theirs" and "mine"

You seems to want to debate these facts, I do NOT
The old rationale of "if your trash is in my yard then that makes it my trash" is an "argument" or "debate" that has worn thin with me
The truth of the matter is "it is what it is"

To answer your "question" more specifically? Most of the theft occurs here, within the borders of the contiguous United States (this should be obvious; we have what they want to steal) but with the proceeds resulting from these "activities" winding up back in the "mother" country or some other "off shore" protected repository more friendly to the offending parties

As for counterfeit goods (and blatant violators of copyright and patent protections) the chinese are the WORST and this is a FACT. If there is a demand, any demand at all, "they" (SOMEone there will more than happy to oblige) will readily fabricate copies of anything and everything imaginable, from passive parts (remember the Capacitor Plague?) to Alps Blue Velvet potentiometers to a Beatles Box Set or a pair of expensive sneakers...................and not think twice about it (representing these goods as "authentic"

So clearly, it isn't (on my part) an "us versus them" "protectionist" sort of thing; they steal protected intellectual property and designs and formulas (equal opportunity thieves) from everyone, especially Japan

So, I do not think it too far fetched to believe that if enough folks needed a given JBL horn (especially a plastic one) that the market would not be too long seeing a clone of said horn being passed off as authentic...................if it hasn't already, patent or no patent

That was all I was saying

[ivica]

What I said was neither a slur or a misrepresentation of any population at large, OR AN INDICTMENT OF THE ENTIRE POPULATION, rather a reference to the operating bases of well organized, well protected (and documented) criminal activities; counterfeit goods and intellectual/electronic data/property thefts are a problem in today's World and the two greatest offenders (when it comes to these crimes) are the countries which were once part of the former soviet union (including russia) and china

And THAT is a FACTUAL statement

It has been that way since the end of the Second World War and covers the ground and everything from missile and weapons technology to pirated CeeDees and everything in between, including but not limited to: popular Hollywood movies (since the days of VHS), popular music titles (the cassette tape and phonograph record), vacuum tubes............even brand name hand tools all the way to the present, the digital era (which has exacerbated and accelerated these activities exponentially)
"Chip" technology and architecture (theft via reverse engineering) as well...................the list(s) goes on and on

Extremely popular (and lucrative) today is just the outright theft of monies using data harvesting (a favorite of the russian mafia here in the Bay Area) The Golden Gate Bridge being one of their favorite locales for their "harvesting"


That was all I was saying

Hi

Well, hmmm????

"..Airbus is demanding answers from the German government following media reports that it helped the U.S. National Security Agency spy on the company.
The aviation group, based in France, said it would file a criminal complaint about suspected industrial espionage in an attempt to force an explanation from Berlin.

.."
http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/30/news/airbus-germany-nsa-spying/
http://www.thelocal.de/20140711/the-americans-humiliated-us-german-press-reacts-to-spy-scandal
http://intelnews.org/2015/06/30/01-1725/
"New documents show US spied ‘on every major French company"
http://www.ibtimes.com/nsa-sought-german-help-spy-siemens-reports-1915731
http://www.thelocal.de/20140711/the-americans-humiliated-us-german-press-reacts-to-spy-scandal
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/the-nsa-and-american-spies-targeted-spiegel-a-1042023.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-24647268


is it a kind of "data harvesting (a favorite of the Russian mafia here in the Bay Area)"

regards
ivica

[Wagner]

Hi

Well, hmmm????

"..Airbus is demanding answers from the German government following media reports that it helped the U.S. National Security Agency spy on the company.
The aviation group, based in France, said it would file a criminal complaint about suspected industrial espionage in an attempt to force an explanation from Berlin.

.."
http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/30/news/airbus-germany-nsa-spying/
http://www.thelocal.de/20140711/the-americans-humiliated-us-german-press-reacts-to-spy-scandal
http://intelnews.org/2015/06/30/01-1725/
"New documents show US spied ‘on every major French company"
http://www.ibtimes.com/nsa-sought-german-help-spy-siemens-reports-1915731
http://www.thelocal.de/20140711/the-americans-humiliated-us-german-press-reacts-to-spy-scandal
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/the-nsa-and-american-spies-targeted-spiegel-a-1042023.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-24647268


is it a kind of "data harvesting (a favorite of the Russian mafia here in the Bay Area)"

regards
ivica
Apples and oranges friend; I was simply speaking to blatant theft.....................and sure, "Apple" steals from "Nokia" and on and on it goes................that wasn't my "point" and you obviously don't want to "hear" what it is I am saying (or for some strange reason seem to take my comments personally?) Wasn't talking "007" Bond, James Bond.............

I was speaking directly to manufactured consumer goods, hand rags to handbags, not industrial espionage and what is, or is not, "national security" activities (that's another kettle of fish)

I was speaking to caps labelled "Nichicon" that ain't "Nichicons", box sets on which no royalties have been paid, tubes labelled "Telefunken" that aren't "Telefunkens" , "JBL" service parts labelled as such that ain't JBL parts and using credit card numbers that aren't yours, ICs labelled "Burr-Brown" or "TI" that aren't either (to name just a couple).....................that sort of thing............simple stuff really and practiced by those that thanks to their location(s) and untraceable, unaccountable, impossible to unravel supply chains and banking practices (they play by different rules) are virtually immune from prosecution (by our, U.S.A. Courts) or held to any degree of accountability for any incidental or consequential damages

I think this thread hijack/derail is over now; my apologies to the OP and others

[Lee in Montreal]

Counterfeiting in the US is nothing new. Here's an article from 1984.

http://www.nytimes.com/1984/06/09/business/inquiry-on-counterfeit-parts.html

"The counterfeiting, which reportedly took place at a small Los Angeles electronics parts distributor, was uncovered by the General Electric Company, according to documents G.E. filed in United States District Court in Los Angeles. G.E. charged last month that the tiny S.J. Corporation, which does business as Aero Electronics, had produced faulty look-alike components - some used in commercial aviation - that bore the trademarks of G.E. and other manufacturers. "

Lee

[Wagner]

Counterfeiting in the US is nothing new. Here's an article from 1984.

http://www.nytimes.com/1984/06/09/business/inquiry-on-counterfeit-parts.html

"The counterfeiting, which reportedly took place at a small Los Angeles electronics parts distributor, was uncovered by the General Electric Company, according to documents G.E. filed in United States District Court in Los Angeles. G.E. charged last month that the tiny S.J. Corporation, which does business as Aero Electronics, had produced faulty look-alike components - some used in commercial aviation - that bore the trademarks of G.E. and other manufacturers. "

Lee

I never said, or implied, that it was

Do YOU know who the "S.J. Corporation" is/was? "Aero Electronics"? (or at least who they were back in 1984?)
I know one of them (the name anyway) NOW is a chinese outfit that markets R/C model parts and kits and I know who "Arrow Electronics" is (well regarded, Fortune 500 publicly traded electronics company on the NYSE)

I also don't see how a 30 year old article (that provides little to no useful details regarding who the principle players were) changes, or sheds a new light on anything I've said? Although based solely on the enterprise's location I could venture some speculations

The outfit was clearly a "front" for criminal activity

Southern California is a mecca for electronics "recycler-re-sellers" and new and used surplus vendors/buyers, many of which are ultimately owned (drum roll please) by chinese interests