A General Question about Speakers like the JBL 4430

[markd51]

Hello folks,
I own a pair of beautiful 4430 Monitors, which I in fact bought right here from a seller about a good 4-5 years ago.
Some of you may remember? (HJames?) Person was Tom Tatman from Catamount Studios, but these speakers were supposedly never used in the Studio, but spent their prior lives in a Company's Conference Room.

The 2235H Drivers were re-foamed by Orange County Speaker just prior to my acquisition. Anyway, Ill get on with the pertinent question I have:

I know from time to time it is wise common sense to check the Drivers that they are not loose, I of course did that when I got the speakers, and from time to time check the Bass Drivers.

Last week I checked the Bass Drivers, all clamps were fairly snug, may have taken an 1/8th turn on the screws if that.

Just this morning I checked the Horns and they seemed fairly loose according to the Allen Screwdriver, some screws taking 5-6 turns. Others just maybe a turn or two.

I of course know well you don't tighten such with gorilla-like force for fear of cracking the horns at the screw holes. I just snugged them well without the risk of over-tightening.

Now here's my question? I've never been inside these speakers to inspect-peek at anything.

Not sure of some things, but my question is, can the Compression Drivers as well also start to become loose from the rear of the Horn, and as well the Bracing Board for the Driver inside the Enclosure? Is such commonplace?

Should one check such periodically on such speakers as these, and others which use Compression Drivers? What have been your findings?

I'll assume the Bass Drivers will need to be removed, and gathering that the Compression Driver can be accessed through the Baffle Board after the 2235H is removed?

Anything else should be checked while I'm in there?

Understand it might also be a good idea to rotate both Bass Drivers 90 degrees, an old tip I think I once read here, easy I also assume when they are then removed.

Thank you folks,
Mark

[SEAWOLF97]

Understand it might also be a good idea to rotate both Bass Drivers 90 degrees, an old tip I think I once read here, easy I also assume when they are then removed.

Thank you folks,
Mark

personally , I'd rotate them 180

[markd51]

personally , I'd rotate them 180

Sorry, but you're right Seawolf, that's what I actually meant! LOL 90 degrees would only be a 1/4 turn, 180 would be a 1/2 turn.

That will be an automatic thing I'll do should I yank these drivers, which I think I will do very soon.

These also don't have the correct grillcloth, but do have 2 full yards of Cloth from our gone but not forgotten member Zilch.

[grumpy]

If you want to inspect the compression driver, just remove the horn (the driver will follow closely behind) :)

[markd51]

If you want to inspect the compression driver, just remove the horn (the driver will follow closely behind) :)

Thanks Grumpy for telling me this.

None the less, since I'm still thinking of doing the Woofer rotation like talked about earlier, can I still kill 2 birds with one stone, and still see and access the compression driver and its attachment screws-etc to the Horn with the Woofer removed? Then I won't have to monkey with the Horn at all.

Is the Compression Driver also in some way supported inside the Cabinet, or no, that the Horn itself supports the Compression driver's entire weight?

Thanks, mark

[grumpy]

Well, you can have a look when the woofer is out and see if you agree...
the driver has wood around it, though on mine I don't really think the wood
holds up the driver once the Allen head bolts are tightened on the horn.
...might help prevent catastrophic damage during shipping.

[honkytonkwillie]

Might be obvious, but if you lay the 4430 down on it's back, you won't have the woofer dropping as you remove the clamps. And the horn lifts out nicely too.

[markd51]

Might be obvious, but if you lay the 4430 down on it's back, you won't have the woofer dropping as you remove the clamps. And the horn lifts out nicely too.

Thank you! Yep, thought of that too, and having experience with other Speakers like my L-65 Jubals, this is the wisest method of driver removal. Those 2235H drivers are of course even heavier than 126A's and certainly don't need those 15's flying out of the cabinets onto the floor, or into my hands, where I can easily damage a cone.

Haven't done the surgery yet, but when I do, I'll try to accompany a follow up with a couple pics to share of what I see inside!
Mark

[speakerdave]

Also, when lifting a woofer out of a cabinet have a plan where you going to rest it on the baffle board while disconnecting the leads. Some cloth or cardboard will prevent any slight marring that might occur without it.

[SEAWOLF97]

Sorry, but you're right Seawolf, that's what I actually meant! LOL 90 degrees would only be a 1/4 turn, 180 would be a 1/2 turn.

when you rotate it 180, don't repeat my mistake :o:

[markd51]

Also, when lifting a woofer out of a cabinet have a plan where you going to rest it on the baffle board while disconnecting the leads. Some cloth or cardboard will prevent any slight marring that might occur without it.

You're absolutely right, and thank you for this reminder! These are just to nice to bugger. As you can see, need to get that Zilch Cloth on too! Getting tired of the grey.
Mark

64852

[markd51]

BTW, maybe some have noticed some "new amplification" in my Rack?

Yep, those are a brand new pair of Bryston 7bsst2 Monoblocks. They're exactly one week old at this point in time.

About 80 hours on them now, were seeming a bit "lean and shrill" and fairly "bass light" for a few days, getting a little fuller sounding, and better balanced now. Hope they'll warm a little further yet.

Factory Test Specs on the bench state 676 watts into an 8 Ohm load before clipping. Yep, they're quite mean powerhouses! Fuzz, Hum, etc, I hear zero at 1/2 output with no music playing, dead quiet.

Not as syrupy and as warm as my 40 year old Mac 2105's, I didn't expect them to be, nor wanted them to be. The 2105's always seemed to run out of power and seemed distorted, at the verge of clipping when playing a bit loud. The 4430's needed a bit more headroom from Amplification.

Played them beyond insane loud the other night, they were really putting out the music, not a lick of distortion, the 4430's sounded "happy"!

Build construction is very nice on these, as they should be for their asking price. Cannot beat a 20 year warrantee either.

[speakerdave]

Nice amps. Really nice amps. Your initial response to Bryston seems to happen often. I have an older Bryston I use for some things, replacing a second generation McIntosh solid state, an MC2200, a very nice sounding amp in the midrange and treble, and the Bryston (5st) is absolutely non-fatiguing, and I also found it a better match for modern heavy-coned woofers.

Looking at your photo I wonder if you have tried interchanging your left and right speakers to get the horn a little farther away from the wall on the left (can't see the right). Just a thought. You would still get an early reflection, and it might actually sound worse. That might be a spot where some reflection dampening would add to your enjoyment of your system.

[ivica]

BTW, maybe some have noticed some "new amplification" in my Rack?

Yep, those are a brand new pair of Bryston 7bsst2 Monoblocks. They're exactly one week old at this point in time.
........ Fuzz, Hum, etc, I hear zero at 1/2 output with no music playing, dead quiet.

Not as syrupy and as warm as my 40 year old Mac 2105's, I didn't expect them to be, nor wanted them to be. .........The 4430's needed a bit more headroom from Amplification.

Played them beyond insane loud the other night, they were really putting out the music, not a lick of distortion, the 4430's sounded "happy"!

Build construction is very nice on these, as they should be for their asking price. Cannot beat a 20 year warrantee either.

Hi markd51,

What does that mean: "..I hear zero at 1/2 output with no music playing..". If I have understood correctly, while the input pot is about 1/2, but
if total span is about 60dB, than that means you have -30dB down. I think that You have to test them at 1/1, with no music playing.
regards
ivica

[honkytonkwillie]

He's talking about background system noise being inaudible when the volume is turned up halfway, but music isn't playing. Like between tracks or when changing a CD.

[markd51]

He's talking about background system noise being inaudible when the volume is turned up halfway, but music isn't playing. Like between tracks or when changing a CD.

Yes, this is exactly what I meant, sorry I didn't explain myself better originally.

[markd51]

Nice amps. Really nice amps. Your initial response to Bryston seems to happen often. I have an older Bryston I use for some things, replacing a second generation McIntosh solid state, an MC2200, a very nice sounding amp in the midrange and treble, and the Bryston (5st) is absolutely non-fatiguing, and I also found it a better match for modern heavy-coned woofers.

Looking at your photo I wonder if you have tried interchanging your left and right speakers to get the horn a little farther away from the wall on the left (can't see the right). Just a thought. You would still get an early reflection, and it might actually sound worse. That might be a spot where some reflection dampening would add to your enjoyment of your system.

As for swapping the speakers, not a bad idea to try! The change and possible tweak of course is free, just means a bit of back torture which will take a couple of Aleves, and couple days to get over is all! :D

The Bryston Amps I would say now have very close to about 100 hours play time. They are at this point not as fat in the bass frequencies as I had hoped they'd be. At least not at low to moderate listening levels.

This could be that the Brystons are perhaps more linear, uncolored and flat in the frequency response top to bottom, not being warm, syrupy, and I wouldn't call them a "tubey" sounding set of Amps for sure. Probably better than a sound which gives untrue flabby-fat frequency response.

At least with the McIntosh MX-130 AV Pre/Tuner in the mix, I do have a Bass-Treble Control as well as a Variable Loudness Compensation Dial. Thus I can dial in a little more Bass at lower listening levels if need be without it seeming to detriment overall sound.

Otherwise, these Amps seem to like, and effortlessly take to some serious power output without breaking the slightest amount of sweat like a Duck takes to water. When power is placed to the 4430's, all seems very right, fast, tight, clean, highly detailed, and better balanced top to bottom.

The problem and characteristics I'm guessing is not the Amps, or Speakers, I just need a bigger house is all! LOL

I've just earlier turned down the Mid L-Pad to -4, and the High L-Pad left at 0db. Will try these settings for a bit.

[johnlcnm]

Hi Mark. I'm next door to you in Las Cruces. I have a new to me pair of 4425s. I have ordered new Radian replacement diaphragms for the 2415 compression drivers. There seems to be a little distortion at higher listening levels. This pair has the old 2415 vise the 2416h that was later used. I replaced my old Threshold amp with a new Crown I-Tech 5000hd. Using the AES input is a game changer sonically.

[markd51]

Today I had myself a busy morning, but got a lot accomplished.

First, I did yank both speaker Cabs, and swapped them, so that the Horn's Throats are a bit closer together, and the L-Pad Panel now resides on the outside of each Speaker. This should offer some improvement of imaging.

While they were out in the middle of the Living Room Floor, I laid down both Speakers on their backs, and rotated the 2235H Drivers 180 degrees.

I checked the wiring to the drivers, correct polarity, etc, and all looked just fine per JBL Specifications. All else inside looked just fine.

I was able to get a small 7/16" Open End Wrench onto each of the Compression Driver's 3 Hex Head Connecting Bolts to Horn without the need of wrestling out the Horns from the Cabs. Wasn't too hard, and none were really loose, but was able to ever so slightly snug all about a 1/6th of a turn till nicely snug. Thus insuring-confirming nothing was loose.

Once Cabs were back in place, and positioned, I then set myself up to proceed to change the grey Speaker Grill Cloth to the proper Factory JBL Blue Grill Cloth that Zilch (RIP) sold me some years back. Finally said "let's do it", and have these babies looking the way they were intended-supposed to look, factory bone stock.

I had intensely studied one of the Grill Cloth installation procedures here more times than I can count, and to tell the truth, I wasn't enamored over the idea of using Contact Cement, and then Iron per this particular method.

I instead ordered a few small Tubes of Glue from Simply Speakers, got the Glue a couple days ago in the mail, so I was all set to go.

After removing the old Grill Cloth, and then insuring the pair of Frames were clean, and ready to go, I then pre-cut the material on a clean flat Bed Sheet on the Living Room Floor, insuring a good few inches of overlap on all sides.
(I was smart enough back then to buy 2 full Yards from Zilch, thus have enough for another re-cloth job down the road if ever needed)

Simply squeezed a thin bead of the Glue around the back of the Grill Frames, and spread with a small Acid Brush, pretty much exactly following Simply Speaker's Instructional Video.

The Glue after setting up, and becoming tacky to the touch, I was then ready. All went without a hitch, this method and this particular Glue they sell worked perfectly. The new Grill Cloth, being stretched just slightly so no flapping, the Glue was perfectly adequate for the task, and worked just fine. Did final trimming with a razor sharp Utility Knife, and a metal Straight Edge Ruler.

One small Tube of Glue almost made it for both Grills, I had to open another Tube to coat just one last remaining side.

Once the old Grill Cloth was off, I could then better see it looking "aged", and past its prime. As I earlier said, they now look fresh, correct.

Will play the system later, to see what sonic changes have come about, and will take a Picture for you folks at that time to show! Sorry I did not take any pics of the inside of the Cabs, but as I said, the Compression Driver Bolts were accessible with a little patience. Glad that's all done! Yahoo!

[markd51]

649786497964980

Here's a few new pics I said I would post.
Mark

[markd51]

OK, mid afternoon, powered up the system, and listened to a little light FM while I prepped, and ate dinner.

After all that was done, dishes done, wanted to sit down for a little serious listening, been due for a little session for a couple days

I played a total of 3 CDs, Led Zep I, MFSL 24K Pink Floyd DSOTM, and a 2 CD Set, Neil Young's Greatest Hits.

Sitting there as the afternoon waned, and looking at the new Grill Cloths on the 4430's as they played, they looked just goddamn super serious and downright killer mean, playing no fool, and taking no prisoners. Under lower lighting, they then look darker than my pics show, almost looking black.

"You Shook Me", and "Dazed and Confused" took my head off. Always have to close with "How Many More Times", John Paul Jones' Bass was tight and taught, razor sharp.

With Pink Floyd, what can I say, again, Breathe, and Us and Them sounded like right in the room, precise, tight, coherent.

Neil rocked the house, played both CDs, his guitar was sharp, cutting, highly defined, as was his voice.

When I went to shut the system down, I commonly always check the Amps, as to how hot, and what beating they have taken after a play. The Bryston 7bSST2 Amps were barely warm!

These Amps took a while to come around, a good 50-70 hours before things started to smooth, they sounded like total crap when I first played them, absolutely no under-estimation about this, but they seemed to have settled in. I estimate about a total of 115 hours on them at this point.

Although not a syrupy-warm set of Amps, like my old MC2105's, they now are sounding more precise, accurate, clean, articulate, not raspy, or sounding distorted like they first did, clean accurate bass response, not muddy, nor washed out. Seem to have precise control over the 2235H Drivers. Nothing added, yet nothing missing.

No matter the volume level, tight, clean, no distortion, gobs of headroom, shake the pictures off the walls if you want to go that far with the volume control, the shortcomings are probably the listening room, and my ears.

[Mr. Widget]

I finally got around to this thread. Very nice looking system!
Thanks for sharing.


Widget

[markd51]

I finally got around to this thread. Very nice looking system!
Thanks for sharing.


Widget

Thank you Mr. Widget for the compliments. While the MX-130 AV Pre-Tuner may not be the best "logical" choice for a pre-amp to pair with these Amps, I like its versatility of at least having Bass-Treble Controls, and a variable Loudness Compensation Dial.

Although a Bryston Pre would probably be the proper match in many ways, and the Amps seem quite linear, the human ear's deficit to hear bass well at low volumes makes having a Loudness Dial a nice addition as well as the 2 Tone Controls.

Would really like trying a newer Mac Pre one day, like a C48 or C50 with their numerous front panel mounted EQ Controls to see how much better the sound could be shaped-adjusted? Only downside with those newer Pre's, no Loudness Compensation.

[johnlcnm]

Mark,

I had issues removing the 4425 horns. I know they do not have the flange surface area of your horns, but using a one inch putty knife with a piece of clear packing tape wrapped over the end I was able to work it in around the horn flange. I also used soapy water and an acid brush applied around the contact area to help keep it from re-sticking. The foam gasket did fold up a little under the flange, but it can be straightened back out. The packing tape is tuff stuff. It was good for the entire removal. No scratches to the horn or mounting board.

Regards,

John

[SEAWOLF97]

system looks very nice to me.

re: grille cloth. Your replacement looks better too.

A friend bought a pair of L-250's that had that same color to replace the
OEM camel/brown colored ones. If I had a spare pair of frames, I'd do that too.

You know .... summer grilles & winter ones.