045BE vs 045BE-1

[baldrick]

Anyone know the difference between 045BE and 045BE-1?

[baldrick]

Anyone?

I consider useing 045be instead of 045be-1 in my Everest clones (with original passive Everste crossover), will this work similar as 045be-1?

[Champster]

Can't help you but where are you hoping to buy them even if you knew the difference?

[pos]

from the S9900 thread (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?24086-K2-s9900):
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=37524&stc=1&d=1235496550
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=37525&stc=1&d=1235496590

[ivica]

from the S9900 thread (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?24086-K2-s9900):
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=37524&stc=1&d=1235496550
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=37525&stc=1&d=1235496590

Hi POS,

thanks for the reminded us about 045Be-1. It is interesting that such new driver can be used only up to about 17kHz,
wthout huge EQ and dedicated DSP and own power amp, if JBL high sensitivity speakers wanted to be realized.
May be old models such as JBL 2405 2402 2403 2404 are good candidates too, if their old fashion outlook can be neglected

regards
ivica

[pos]

Hi Ivica,

It is the other way around: it is used for 17kHz and up :)

[ivica]

Hi Ivica,

It is the other way around: it is used for 17kHz and up :)

Hi POS,

I think that (as seen from the figures You have sent us) say: from 17kHZ up to 25kHz it would be very difficult to us it without DSP (or other active) networks, not to mention that its sensitivity in that region is less then 95dB/W/1m , and that would make it almost useless for higher efficiency speakers that are say 95dB/W/1m efficiency. Interestingly that JBL use it in DD66k speakers that are about 93dB/W/1m.

Regards
Ivica

[4313B]

I can see caring about an 045 with a system like the original K2-S9800 but in an Everest system it is a non-issue, except for marketing purposes of course...

[baldrick]

The crossover in Everst is 20khz so in first it sounded redicilous also to me... but as someone stated in another thread it still means that 045be will give quite a lift from 10khz and up to 20khz (I Guess if means a 12db lift from 10 to 20khz). Since the MF have drop in the higher freq I would guess that this makes sense after all or am I way off?

I haven't gotten horns for the Everst yet so I don't know how the speakers will sound as 2-way, and don't know how a 2451BE will sound compared to 476Be. But I do know how 2447Be sound in Seos waveguides and I therefore think that adding a supertweeter might be a good solution.

[Dieter]

I don't want to miss the UHF in the DD66000. If you cover them, there is missing something! :)

[4313B]

I don't want to miss the UHF in the DD66000. If you cover them, there is missing something! :)And that is exactly why they are there. ;)

[audiomagnate]

I don't want to miss the UHF in the DD66000. If you cover them, there is missing something! :)

But exactly what is missing? With a crossover point above the upper hearing limit of just about anyone who can afford them, Everests have always baffled me. It's quite possible the 045 adds some subconsciously detectable air or depth when used like that, but I just think an 8 to 10k crossover point sounds better to my 15k limited ears. I just KNOW crossing over at that point electronically and using a separate amp would work perfectly. You can easily get the level right and they will have the openness and bite of the old 2405 equipped monitors that so many people love.

[Dieter]

But exactly what is missing?

The best way is hearing by yourself! :D

[4313B]

But exactly what is missing?The system would be a real tough sell in the intended marketplace if it didn't go out to ~ 40 kHz on paper.

[audiomagnate]

The best way is hearing by yourself! :D

I have. I can't hear that tweeter!

[4313B]

I have. I can't hear that tweeter!No one can.

It does add a significant degree of comfort to those who think they can. :)

The 045 in the S9800, S9900, 1400 Array, SAM1HF, etc. can be heard.

[Mr. Widget]

I have. I can't hear that tweeter!Well, I know I can not hear a sine wave above about 15 kHz these days… but on my DD66000s, I absolutely do hear the output of the tweeters and can hear the difference when I disconnect them.

It is subtle to the point of being almost irrelevant… but I can hear them when I compare the speakers with the tweeters connected vs. disconnected.


Widget

[4313B]

I think we've covered both ends of the system at this point. While the bottom end might disappoint some, there is no denying that the top end is all there. :)

[Mr. Widget]

I think we've covered both ends of the system at this point. While the bottom end might disappoint some, there is no denying that the top end is all there. :)The whole second guessing thing about the sonic performance of the DD66000 is just plain silly. I listen to these speakers almost daily... and through my job I listen to quite a few other systems at all price points regularly.

There are lots of speaker flavors because lots of people have varying tastes... Nothing wrong with that, but that doesn't mean there is any shortcoming in the design of the Everests. These speakers are amazing performers. They sound more like "real" music than most speakers, they may not be perfect, but they are damned close. That said, I do wish they were a bit smaller. :)


Widget

[sebackman]

Hi

I use 045Ti's with K2 9900 horns on top of 2451BE's and regardless how I tune the XO (Same type BSS unit as shipped as M2) there is a difference in sonic perception with 045’s and without. Even if crossed above 15kHz or higher.

There is also, in my ears, a difference between using the 045Ti’s between 10k-15k compared to using only the driver equalized. -Even if I put in a 48db cut off at 15k, which should eliminated the fact that the Be’s does not go all the way to 20k. Measurements show no meaningful difference but sonically the system incorporating the 045’s are easier to listen to.

What puzzels me (among other things J ) is the different crossover points JBL is using with regards to the 045’s. In K2’s the XO is very high but in the Array 1400 it is only 8k. I understand that some of these are 045Be’s, some of them use 045Ti’s and that they use different drivers and horns but there is still a big difference between 8k and 20k.
K2 9900 XO = 15k
K2 9800 XO = 10k
K2 66000 XO = 20k
Array 1400 XO = 8k
SAM1HF XO= 9k
4365 XO = 15k

[ivica]

Well, I know I can not hear a sine wave above about 15 kHz these days… but on my DD66000s, I absolutely do hear the output of the tweeters and can hear the difference when I disconnect them.

It is subtle to the point of being almost irrelevant… but I can hear them when I compare the speakers with the tweeters connected vs. disconnected.


Widget

Hi Widget,

It would be expectable that the presence of the UHF driver is possible to be detected, as our ears can detect tones that are 20dB lower then the rest of the sound level.
If me imagine that our perception of the sound level corresponds to the "dB presentation" ( log proportional), and if we expect that we feel the frequency span as log of the frequency , then from the attached figure I can guess that from 10KHZ to 20Khz driver 045 would "contribute" about 50% of the 476Be contribution in the mentioned frequency region.

Sorry for too many 'expectations', and not precise explanation of human sound perception.

regards
ivica

[pos]

Especially off axis (and in the power response to an extend) as the 476Be in the biradial horn will become quite directional above ~10kHz whereas the 045Be will have a large radiation pattern.