What is "Real"?

[hjames]

I moved the following three posts from another thread as they seemed to be their own topic and worthy of discussion... Can hifi speakers recreate music in our homes and what is the goal?

Widget


No - the basis of the music is what real LIVE music sounds like - no club bent music, not PA horn music, but classical music in a hall or auditorium.
Acoustic blues in a small club, Scottish music in a small hall with pipes and the human voice ...
If you are not using real music as the basis of your samples, you just missed the point.




Ducatista47 - you really don't get it, and I am very sure you don't have a pair of E2 in your living room, also I guess you never even had the opportunity to audition the E2 speakers?

This is not about club-bass, SPL, car audio boom-bas ..

This is about music. And many writers on this thread obviously don't care about music, but their tech-stuff.

What matters most to me are the music I listen to, and my speakers are the tool that transform an electric signal into a signal I can HEAR.

The music are in some way or another - a message from the artist.

I very seldom listen to gangsta or hip-hop, but it happens now and then as we actually have a few hip-hop artist in Denmark who (or their producers), succeeds very well in making fabulous sound landscapes. Especially one of my records have a very dark and dirty story, and to illustrate the darkness in the telling, a lot of very LF from Electric bass + synth are added to the tracks. LF not only to be heard but also felt. I am not asking for bud-kickers to place inside the sofa, and this has nothing to do with club-bass or gangsta style bass.

But the vey much LF info in the music is part of the message from the artist. I don't get that message without my EXtensions. E2 is a bright performer and without my EXtensions the presentation of this specific records are TOO bright. Or similar to a painter painting in color white on a white background. I don't get the whole picture before the painter starts painting his white colors on a dark background. I don't get the whole message from the artist without my EXtensions. Lucky me managed to build the EXtensions my self, but what about the many E2 owners out there who suffers from LF as I did? I can build them a system similar to mine, but it would be better if JBL offered a complete package (said before), with same exterior as the E2.

You mentioned something about STAX Electrostatic headphones sound quality? If thats the issue - forget the E2 system that takes advantages of pressure loading the listening room with the ups and down sides that follows this technique, and go for an open baffle bass system. That will give you an quality bass resolution on par with the STAX - but you will need a VERY large room for a VERY large system in order to equal SPL from E2. But if you got that opportunity, you end up above E2 LF reproduction by a far margin.

Kind regards

Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk)

[hsosdrum]

heather james wrote: "the basis of the music is what real LIVE music sounds like - no club bent [sic] music, not PA horn music, but classical music in a hall or auditorium. Acoustic blues in a small club, Scottish music in a small hall with pipes and the human voice ... If you are not using real music as the basis of your samples, you just missed the point."

Exactly who made you the final arbiter of what is and isn't "real" music for anyone besides yourself? Les Paul and Mary Ford made recordings that could never be performed as a "live" acoustic event (you'd have to clone Ford nine times just to get the vocals). After 1966 The Beatles intentionally made recordings that could not be performed live. Stockhausen and Cage (amongst many others) wrote purely electronic pieces of music that don't even exist as acoustic events until they are reproduced by loudspeakers. Yet none of this is "real" music and can't be used to judge the accuracy of an audio reproduction system? Why not? Oh yes, because none of us can know what the original event sounded like.

OK, let's try something here: Think of your favorite music that you use for speaker evaluation - the music that fits all of the criteria you list above. The stuff that you know so well; the REAL music. Now honestly answer the following question: Were you present at the recording session? No? Then how could you possibly know what it is supposed to sound like? If you weren't there you're just guessing, and if your guess about how a particular acoustic blues event that you didn't attend sounded is valid for judging the reproduction accuracy of an audio system then my guess about how a particular Moog synthesizer recording is supposed to sound is just as valid for making the same judgement. (Maybe more valid, since I've played Moogs as far back as 1973.)

Wait, you say, the answer is "yes, I was there at the recording session." OK, were you standing with your ears next to the microphines? Anyone here who has made recordings of acoustic events knows how big a sonic difference can result from moving a microphone as little as a few inches. Again, unless your ears were where the mics were you can't know what the event actually sounded like. You may know what it sounded like to you, sitting in the audience several yards away, but that's not what the mics heard (unless they happened to have been an X/Y configuration positioned directly over your head).

But, you say "the recording sounds just as I remember the event sounding." OK, but what about the rest of the audience? If the recording sounds right to you it can't possibly sound right to the patron who sat in the balcony, or to someone sitting in the back (or front) row. Each audience member hears a different acoustic event that is created by a unique combination of direct sounds from the instruments and reflections from walls and other surfaces that occurs at their seat. The notion that any particular recording of an acoustic event can be so accurate that it can serve as a useful evaluation tool for every single person who was in attendance during its recording is absurd; the physics of acoustic events simply put the lie to that notion.

The recordings that are the most useful to anyone for judging the accuracy of an audio reproduction system are the ones that they are most familiar with; these should be the same ones they will be listening to on the system for their own enjoyment. If I listen to music with lots of energy between 25Hz and 50Hz then I would be smart indeed to use such music during my evaluation of loudspeakers. Scottish music in a small hall with human voice? If that's the kind of music you will listen to then you absolutely should use it in your evaluations of loudspeakers. (I do not listen to that type of music, so such a recording would be of limited use to me.) However, I do listen to lots and lots of rock music and I know what a Gibson SG guitar playing through a vintage Marshall stack sounds like (of course, with all the controls on the amp and guitar turned all the way up), so it makes much more sense for me to use recordings of that type of music as tools for evaluation. (BTW, a Gibson playing through a Marshall is just as much an acoustic instrument as is a Haynes flute, a 9' Steinway grand or my Ludwig drumkit with Zildjian cymbals - no difference, except that it's WAY more difficult to get a good recording of the Gibson/Marshall running on 10.)

All loudspeakers create a presentation of the signal they're being fed; what you're hearing is an electro-mechanical interperetation of an electronic signal. Each and every speaker's interperetation is different. Those that are the product of a talented designer (such as Greg Timbers) will reflect the preferences of their designer to one degree or another. Nothing wrong with that; after all, this audio stuff is as much art as it is science. But the fact remains that because all speakers are at their hearts interpereters, even the best are only accurate to a degree. Because of this, no single recording (or type of recording) will ever sound right on every speaker -- it'll only sound right on the speakers whose interperetations you like.

[hjames]

I made me the arbiter of what is and isn't real music in my house ... Sure, I own some of those NOVELTY records of Les Paul and Mary Ford,
and some Tangerine Dream, and lots of other music that (mostly) exists only in the realm or electronics or artificial studios ...
And yes, I've seen TDream live a number of times, saw Morton Subotnick too. Its fun stuff!

And I've gone to dance in clubs downtown with some pretty loud Club sonics ... but I would no more consider those DJ EQed tracks
to be real music than I did Les pauls multitrack wonders. Its fun, but ultimately junk food for the ears. Just like the overdriven bass in dance clubs -
that pounding bass is junk food for the body. Zilch used to take about fake but fun bass - he was just being honest about it.

But if you have a market for folks who want to add subs to $60k pairs of speakers, why, you go for it and ignore our comments here.
We are obviously not the market for such things ... more power to you, and good luck with your sales.
But I think its a bit crass and in bad taste to tell the developers of the original speakers that they are wrong ...



heather james wrote: "the basis of the music is what real LIVE music sounds like - no club bent [sic] music, not PA horn music, but classical music in a hall or auditorium. Acoustic blues in a small club, Scottish music in a small hall with pipes and the human voice ... If you are not using real music as the basis of your samples, you just missed the point."

Exactly who made you the final arbiter of what is and isn't "real" music for anyone besides yourself? Les Paul and Mary Ford made recordings that could never be performed as a "live" acoustic event (you'd have to clone Ford nine times just to get the vocals). After 1966 The Beatles intentionally made recordings that could not be performed live. Stockhausen and Cage (amongst many others) wrote purely electronic pieces of music that don't even exist as acoustic events until they are reproduced by loudspeakers. Yet none of this is "real" music and can't be used to judge the accuracy of an audio reproduction system? Why not? Oh yes, because none of us can know what the original event sounded like.

[Horn Fanatic]

I moved the following three posts from another thread as they seemed to be their own topic and worthy of discussion... Can hifi speakers recreate music in our homes and what is the goal?

Widget


No - the basis of the music is what real LIVE music sounds like - no club bent music, not PA horn music, but classical music in a hall or auditorium.
Acoustic blues in a small club, Scottish music in a small hall with pipes and the human voice ...
If you are not using real music as the basis of your samples, you just missed the point.

IMHO - No speaker system exists that that can reproduce live music, and that goes for the $30,000 pair of Avalon's I've listened to.

I began playing music in 1966, and did so professionally until 2000. I have sat in the pit, and stood on stage in a fifteen piece band including a five piece horn section, and I have yet to hear a speaker system recreate the tactile feel, or the chills one gets from being in close proximity to that combination, especially a Philharmonic orchestra.

I believe that is where the rubber meets the road, people who have never played a note in their life, telling musicians what is real or not.

H.F.

[Mr. Widget]

So what is the reality in reproduced music?

I think that if you are looking for absolute objectivity you are out of luck... even live acoustic music is impossible to really recreate in absolute terms... I have season tickets for my local symphony... my seat is 10th row center in the orchestra section. Listening to my system at home often sounds very close to this presentation, but when I go to other halls and get less ideal seats the sound varies widely. At the opera, the singers rarely sound as clear or powerful in the live performance as they do in recordings.

For multi-tracked recordings I think the goal is to approximate the sound that the band and producer tried to create... but who knows what that is, short of having them drop by. :bouncy: Even for them the "reality" is variable as they listen on near-field mini monitors as well as much larger systems systems during the recording and mixing.

Ultimately I think the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" maxim is as accurate here as in visual art. This thread was pealed off from another where the OP here was inspired by a member who prefers a very jacked up frequency response. While it is easy to objectively show that a response like that is certainly far from reality... is it "wrong"? I don't think so. I personally wouldn't want to spend much time listening to it, but it would be fun in short bursts.


Widget

[speakerdave]

I think when playing a recording of acoustic sounds--voice, folk instruments, acoustic jazz (including a drum kit) and classical music-- we may want the recording chain and our playback systems to have a special kind of accuracy that valorizes flat frequency response and low distortion, and sometimes we want it to be good enough to include the acoustic effects of the room it was played in. When listening to music that has already been amplified or passed through any of the possibilities in a recording studio some of the playback requirements may be relaxed, and others may become more important.

But it's all real, and it's all just fine.

[1audiohack]

We made all this stuff! Acoustic and electrified! Even if we're banging on hollow logs with tree branches and singing, its all interpretation. Hell even choosing which log and where to hit it is within the artists scope, as is voice control, or lack of it.

Buy what you want, build what you want, enjoy what you want and for crying out loud, don't expect or hope anyone else will rubber stamp it.

Back to the music.

Barry.

[Mannermusic]

IMHO - No speaker system exists that that can reproduce live music, and that goes for the $30,000 pair of Avalon's I've listened to.

I began playing music in 1966, and did so professionally until 2000. I have sat in the pit, and stood on stage in a fifteen piece band including a five piece horn section, and I have yet to hear a speaker system recreate the tactile feel, or the chills one gets from being in close proximity to that combination, especially a Philharmonic orchestra.

I believe that is where the rubber meets the road, people who have never played a note in their life, telling musicians what is real or not.

H.F.

Bravo. Double bravo! Your ears become conditioned/trained with all those years of practice and playing. Your "hi fi baseline" is permanently impregnated in your brain. My fav in the ancient past was the Kenton band of the late 50s, early 60s. Simply astonishing (I was an amature trumpet player). Chills! Can't be recorded. You nailed it. Mike

[speakerdave]

I think there's a photo of me playing trombone in my junior high marching band. I know THOSE sounds were unreal. Fortunately I've been able to rehabilitate my auditory programming with recordings of Jack Teagarden, JJ Johnson and Kai Winding.

[Mannermusic]

I think there's a photo of me playing trombone in my junior high marching band. I know THOSE sounds were unreal. Fortunately I've been able to rehabilitate my auditory programming with recordings of Jack Teagarden, JJ Johnson and Kai Winding.

Yep, way to go! Wonderful players - best ever, as best I can tell. You never forget it. Makes you sad when you hear schools cutting music programs. Tragic. We were lucky.

[Mr. Widget]

IMHO - No speaker system exists that that can reproduce live music, and that goes for the $30,000 pair of Avalon's I've listened to.I am not one of the forum members who dislike everything "audiophile", but I would say that cone and dome audiophile speakers like the Avalons can not recreate the visceral impact of live music... and I agree that HiFi is not Live... but the JBL DD66000s, JBL 4350s, Klipschorns, and Altec A7 and it's variants can get really close on the reproduction of the dynamic visceral impact of music. With the exception of the DD66000 these and most other high sensitivity speakers are not very sonically neutral, but that is not always all that important.

Fortunately the human brain is very good at filling in the blanks... smoothing out frequency irregularities or ignoring the lack of dynamic impact in speakers, which allows us to enjoy music reproduction even when it comes pretty short of replicating "reality". :)



I believe that is where the rubber meets the road, people who have never played a note in their life, telling musicians what is real or not.I can see the logic in your statement, but in my experience when I used to record music in the studio each musician heard the music from their own perspective... rarely were the horns loud enough in the final mix for the horn players, the bass for the bass player etc... it's all about perspective. :)


Widget

[hsosdrum]

I worked in the hi-fi industry for nearly 40 years and have listened to thousands (many thousands!) of audio reproduction systems, and I must agree with Horn Fanatic: Absolutely zero of those audio systems ever came close to creating a believable illustion that there were real human musicians playing in the room. I've also been playing live music since I was 12 years old, and have come to accept that the gulf between live and reproduced sound has yet to be crossed.

If your goal is to listen to reproduced sound that is identical to what real, live, flesh-and-blood musicians sound like then be prepared to spend every penny you ever earn, be prepared to dedicate your living space, be prepared to dedicate your life to auditioning, buying, using, selling and replacing different audio components, and be prepared to be ultimately disappointed in what you get. But if what you're after is an illusion that can communicate a lot of the emotion that the artist imbedded into the recording, an illusion that can be captivating, fun and emotionally meaningful, then you're in for a great deal of fun and satisfaction. All you have to do is pick your favorite music and start listening.

[Horn Fanatic]

Bravo. Double bravo! Your ears become conditioned/trained with all those years of practice and playing. Your "hi fi baseline" is permanently impregnated in your brain. My fav in the ancient past was the Kenton band of the late 50s, early 60s. Simply astonishing (I was an amature trumpet player). Chills! Can't be recorded. You nailed it. Mike

Greetings Mike, hsosdrum, and Mr. Widget -

Allow me to explain my tag.

Some years ago I was engaged in a conversation with an audio enthusiast who's expertise was limited to a large JBL sound system he used for Rave parties. We were listening to some orchestral music on a Martin Logan system at a local HiFi shop. I won't go into the details of what I think of Martin-Logan speakers, but to say the least, they sound like broken glass.

He remarked at how real the string section sounded, so I asked him if he had ever listened to a large string section live. His answer was, "no". I then asked him, 'Then how do you know if it sounds real?' Not only did my question fluster him, but his attitude afterward was that of indignation.

H.F.

P.S. Thank you for your input and comments.

[BMWCCA]

If your goal is to listen to reproduced sound that is identical to what real, live, flesh-and-blood musicians sound like then be prepared to spend every penny you ever earn, be prepared to dedicate your living space, be prepared to dedicate your life to auditioning, buying, using, selling and replacing different audio components, and be prepared to be ultimately disappointed in what you get.


In the words of PWK "Bullshit".

I don't spend all my money on Hi-Fi, I live in my living room with my main system and there's a TV there, too. I work 60-hours a week at my profession and listen to music when I have the time. I buy (never sell) many hi-fi components, but I'm far from disappointed. I've listened to music on JBLs longer than you've been in the hi-fi biz. Whether it's on my 030s, my L7s, my L112s, my L96s, or my 4345s, I'm usually enthralled by and involved in the music, the performance, and the recording. I can appreciate better recordings the same way I can appreciate better systems for reproduction. I think we all can say we can appreciate better recordings more the better our systems get.

Again, I'm not disappointed. And I think I can reproduce a concert sound level and realistic soundstage in my living room with my 4345s. I've had professional musicians listen to my system, even sometimes playing their recordings for them. The response from those who play (well) is usually that they've never heard reproduction so faithful to what they think their music should sound like. That's a compliment to my JBLs, my Crown amps, and my Soundcraftsmen front-end components but it's also proof that you can enjoy the music without the Sturm und Drang your comments imply should be necessary. :D

:dead_horse:

[RLock]

I am just a novice here, but aren't we at the mercy of whomever did the recording mix? The best I hope for is accurate recreation of the final mix. The motion of a vocal cord is much different than that of a speaker, as goes for strings, woods or whatever sound one wishes to recreate. That being said, "kudos" to those on this site who have worked to recreate the heavenly sounds and for giving us something that sounds damn good because I do no have enough weed and booze to have musician's come over and play my living room.

[hjames]

I am just a novice here, but aren't we at the mercy of whomever did the recording mix? The best I hope for is accurate recreation of the final mix. The motion of a vocal cord is much different than that of a speaker, as goes for strings, woods or whatever sound one wishes to recreate. That being said, "kudos" to those on this site who have worked to recreate the heavenly sounds and for giving us something sounds damn good because I do not have enough weed and booze to have musician's come over and play in my living room. We are always at the mercy of the engineer, at the mercy of the playback system, and at the mercy of the room acoustics/anomalies. Sort out any room anomalies, get a system you enjoy, and all you can hope for is a pleasant experience playing back the music you like.

[Lee in Montreal]

If someone was able to recreate the dynamic of a snare drum at home, please let us know the recipe... ;-)

Lee

[Ducatista47]

If someone was able to recreate the dynamic of a snare drum at home, please let us know the recipe... ;-)

Lee
Well, get the weed and the booze, and perhaps the groupies, and hire him. When the seventeen year old me attended the last of the South State Street burlesque houses - it was soon to close and I wanted to see the last gasp of a culture - the music was recorded but there was a live traps player to accent the strippers and the comics. He sat out the black and white soft core films. He was a real profesional. His eyes were glued to the performers, even though he had seen them a hundred times, to make everything fit perfectly. As a huge music fan I admired the great job he was doing of it. A good musican, he was a strong looking middle aged man who looked a lot like Stan Getz. It was not unusual to see a Polish musician in Chicago. :) The polka bands on local TV were great.

Completely off topic, at the time I would bicycle down into the Northwest side and work Friday nights and Saturdays at a catering pavilion. The owner was German but it was a Polish neighborhood. Let me tell you, if you were not in Chicago in the fifties and sixties and didn't attend Polish wedding receptions with live bands, you really missed something special. The Greeks (my wife's family) did it well too, but those polka bands. Good lord.

So even a dying burlesque club knew there was no substitute for the real thing. Your avatar is a nice start, though.

[Mr. Widget]

If someone was able to recreate the dynamic of a snare drum at home, please let us know the recipe... ;-)Find an excellent recording of said snare drum and bring it over to my house... I think the DD66000s paired with my Halo JC-1s will put a smile on your face and surprise the hell out of you with regards to just how "real" this playback chain is.


Widget

[hsosdrum]

If someone was able to recreate the dynamic of a snare drum at home, please let us know the recipe... ;-)

Lee

I'm with you there, Lee. When I play even one stroke on my brass Ludwig Black Beauty snare drum, the acoustic event is so dynamic that every other element of my drumkit resonates in sympathy (even the gong!). I can feel the note in my chest, and on a loud rimshot my ears will ring (which is why I've worn earplugs whenever I play, and have done so for the past 40 or so years).

While I'm quite sure that a good compression-driver based system like the M2 or DD66000s could faithfully reproduce these dynamics (the Klipschorns I used to own were particularly good at it), I've yet to hear a recording that faithfully captures this experience from the player's perspective. LPs can't do it (if the mastering engineer even tried the cutting lathe would jump right out of the groove); CDs can, but I've yet to hear a commercial release where the snare (in fact, the whole drumkit) doesn't have the life compressed out of it. I'm trying to zero-in on capturing that experience here in my home studio, but still have a ways to go (really good mics cost big $$$).

[edgewound]

I'm a working musician....I play electric guitar in a few different bands....have for 40 years.

The stage is the last place you want to be to experience the audiences' point of reference for what live music sounds like. Unless you have a perfect mix of every square inch of every performer on stage in top notch monitors...in stereo....in your face.

There are so many variables with live music that it takes more than 3 inches of forum space to discuss it.

I have heard loudspeakers that present an incredible presentation of live acoustic jazz. I closed my eyes and could "see" the players in the room.

I have heard loudspeakers that played back "Frampton Comes Alive" better than Frampton live.....because I heard both in 1976, and the record was better than live....Still is, sound quality wise.

So....the definitive answer in my not so humble opinion is..."It depends"...on everything variable.

[Allanvh5150]

Oddly enough I thought of Frampton comes alive. It is pretty good considering it was the 70's. I also saw him live here in NZ around the same time and I though then that the album was very similar to his live performance. The other thing that is very important when comparing live to your listening room, most acts sound like crap live.

Allan.

[cooky1257]

Real is relative and in terms of reproducing a musical 'event' depends on very very flakey human acoustic memory.
You wouldn't want an uncompressed edition of a jazz band there in the confines of your listening room-too full on, too loud.
In my experience musicians are the most unreliable/indifferent bunch of 'listeners/judges' of sound systems-if they gave a sh1t we wouldn't have such appallingly mastered product to play.
So what is 'real'? for me real is goosebumps pure and simple. When my system presents a performance/recording that moves me, generates a physical response to what's being played with a physicality that good horn comp drivers and large bass drivers can deliver then that's as real as I need. Accurate is moot in that almost every channel/track is in someway modified in the recording process so what your system is reproducing is say a compressed/eq'd drum kit rather than raw in the flesh, likewise brass sections(stand a few feet away live and wait for your ears to go dull/ring for a week).

[Doc Mark]

Good Morning, All,

I totally agree with what Edgewound posted on this topic. I, too, have been a pro musician, having "sung for my supper" for about 30 years, and having spent over 5 years on the road in that time. We went from teen dances, to college Frat parties, to our local clubs and hotels. Then, worked all across the Mid-West for a few years, and finally ended up doing the Las Vegas/Reno/Lake Tahoe circuit for about 3 years, opening for acts such as Lou Rawls, Donna Summers, Blood-Sweat-And-Tears, Paul Revere and the Raiders, and many others. The last big gig I had was playing drums and singing in a band that opened for Jimmy Buffet, in the then brand new Convention Center in San Diego. I've used and heard more music reproduction systems than most folks will ever hear in their entire lives! Some were excellent (to my ears), and some were absolutely horrible! After all that experience, what is "real" to me, is when music sounds like it did when I was playing drums, with the bass player (usually) on my left side, so we could listen to one another, and watch for cues as things went along. I want dynamics, and a wide bandwidth, so I can hear all that has been recorded, and "feel" it, too, when called for.

Having said that, I have a dear and very old friend, who played bass in an early band in which we played in the mid to late 1960's, for whom I built a very nice Altec Lansing system, many years ago. He LOVED it, and so did I!! Later, when he got married, his wife liked the music, but constantly complained about how huge the speakers were!! In absolute truth, that weren't THAT big, but, to her, they looked like refrigerators!! She later talked my friend into selling those wonderful old Altecs, and buying a......... yeah, you guessed it, BOSE system!!! My friend hated the sound of it, but loved the fact that his wife enjoyed it, and that she stopped complaining all the time about the Altecs. I visited him one day, and was shocked to see what had become of his music system. I asked his wife, "Don't you think that the Altec speakers sounded much more 'real' than these little Bose speakers"? To which she replied, with all honesty, "Actually, they sound the same to me, and I love how small these are"!

So, there you have it, Folks. To that Gal, there was no difference in sound when comparing a nice old Altec system, and a Bose system, and she thought the latter sounded very "real". Go figure......... But, basically, that experience supports the essence of what Edgewound posted, as far as "real" being different for each individual, as, for me, there is no way on God's Green Earth that I could ever think that the Bose system sounded "real"!!! :banghead: Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[1audiohack]

It's all real, unfortunately, it's just not all real good.

Barry.

P.S. Nice to see you Ken! Hope all is well.

[Robh3606]

All we listen too on our systems is a reproduction. There is nothing real about any of it in the recording chain. All that matters is that you enjoy the experience. I thoroughly enjoy listening to my set-ups beyond that nothing else really matters. Rob

[hjames]

All we listen too on our systems is a reproduction. There is nothing real about any of it in the recording chain. All that matters is that you enjoy the experience. I thoroughly enjoy listening to my set-ups beyond that nothing else really matters. Rob

Absolutely! Its the main way that music is enjoyed in our homes.

All I meant in my original post in that other thread was that Real music is what we aspire to -
its the point of reference to check our gear against ...

[Steve Schell]

Most of the time I think that we are still miles from producing a believable illusion of reality with our playback systems, just as we surely are with video. A while back though ( I wrote about it here at the time), I conducted an experiment that showed that at times we can come pretty close. I installed a drum kit in my living room and recorded myself butchering the drums and cymbals using Blumlein coincident Reslo ribbon mics in the listening chair, a tube hi fi preamp running wide open as a mic pre, and an Alesis Masterlink hard drive recorder running at 24/96. I would play back the recording at live level for visitors using my fully compression horn loaded speaker system and sitting at the drums, mimicking the recorded sounds. Several listeners told me that they couldn't tell which was which without looking. They said that even the locations in space were reproduced well for the center seated listener.

[Ducatista47]

Steve, I am really, really happy with what I use now, but I can always work up some envy for your Cogent forays. I again thought of your gear when Widget mentioned how it couldn't be done without compression drivers. How close he must be, I thought to myself. Too bad you don't have the opportunity to try some First Watt amps with it. F1J for direct connection w/o crossovers to a lower frequency driver; F5 for the top, crossover or not. I am confident they would be the most accurate power amps available for your drivers. I use them here and they are as close to transparent as you can get with existing technology. The F1J is current source, output ohms 60, and gives all the bass any single driver can output. It is flat down to at least 10Hz and no worse than +0.25dB to 200KHz. The F5 is flat to DC, down 0.25dB at 200KHz. The actual bandwidth is probably a megahertz (no caps outside the power supply) and has distortion at the power you would need of no more than .001%. Your horns could probably do bat echos with it. Their sound is not dry; one gain stage and very natural sounding. Nothing but music to feed the horns. A one ohm load will not upset these amps. They are both dead quiet, noise being in the picowatt region.

I expect there are some examples floating around in California that an enterprising fellow could borrow. Nelson Pass put them together not too far away. He assembled a hundred F1s and all but three have been converted to JFET output. The run of F5s was likewise a hundred. I found both of mine used.

[1audiohack]

Hi Steve;

I am excited to hear your system again, it has been a while.

I too love the dynamic capabilties of horns. Allow me to recomend a crazy tune that for those of us who have a system that will play run and hide loud, is the audio equivalent of driving real fast. Its called The Race, by Yellow, the same guys that did the Oh Yeah song used in Ferris Bueller. There are several mixes of it and when I get to the shop I will edit this and identify it properly.

It has real V8 race car fly by, lots of percussion, lots of big brass and sax and plenty of synth bass and other noise.

It is by far the funnest OMG song I have ever heard.

All the best,
Barry.

[Lee in Montreal]

I 100% concure. "The race" from Yellow is fantastic. In fact, most of that two-man band's recording and mastering is fantastic. I've been a fan since their debut and they always stroke me as original, creative and Swiss-like meticulous in their recordings. and they have that theatrical sense in their music. "La Habanera" is great two. Percussions and brass are top notch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEwFLle1FWA

[DavidF]

The question is not if it sounds “real” but if it sounds real enough. Many statements above fit into this assessment. What is our own personal reality against which we judge the playback on our (or other’s) equipment?

I have experience in my youth with band and orchestra. But I didn’t have to play an instrument to experience live music and sound propagation. In college I worked nights waiting tables in a large dining room that had a piano and bass combo (drummer on weekends). On some days the pianist would arrive early as we were setting up to tune the piano. To some, listening through a piano tuning session could be maddening but I found it interesting listening to the chords as they moved in and out of tune.

Today I find the recording of the piano the most stringent test of reproduced sound when I sit down and think “does that sound real?” Can I walk into another room in the house and imagine a piano being played live in my house? Does the recording and playback have the same transient ring from the hammer on the strings? Does the decay hang in the air? Does the sound pressure produced convey the same power of a live piano? Do the chords have coherency? Can I detect the subtleties in how the instrument is played? I don’t want to beat myself up, or my wallet, constantly chasing what is absolute reality. I am less concerned where the piano is on the stage or what seat I imagine myself sitting in a venue. For me, it’s more about dynamic range combined with impulse control and tonal accuracy. Does is sound real enough?

So, what is real enough to me is most relevant to me. To those who enjoy house, techno, or other types of non-traditional music I try not to dismiss out-of-hand their ability to judge what is real to them based upon what I use for a sense of reality. I would hope, though, that everyone has the opportunity to experience acoustic instruments played without powered reinforcement to have some sense of natural sound propagation and what to listen for at home.

[1audiohack]

Piano is my go to as well. Another sound source that will catch you by surprise is applause. A very broad band impusive noise that we all know well. It suprises me how many DIY systems and big SR systems don't do that one well.

Barry.

[BMWCCA]

The problem is that recording piano properly is not always what happens. There are plenty of badly recorded piano pieces out there but the good ones really shine on a good system. I think it was piano recordings that convinced me of the Nak Dragon's superiority over all other cassette decks way back when I bought mine, new.

Whatever your opinion of Windham Hill Records, IMHO they knew how to record piano.

[Doc Mark]

Hey, Phil,

I agree with you, and have long enjoyed my Windham Hill recordings of well played pianos!! Very nice, indeed! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Mark

[Champster]

Hi Steve;

I am excited to hear your system again, it has been a while.

I too love the dynamic capabilties of horns. Allow me to recomend a crazy tune that for those of us who have a system that will play run and hide loud, is the audio equivalent of driving real fast. Its called The Race, by Yellow, the same guys that did the Oh Yeah song used in Ferris Bueller. There are several mixes of it and when I get to the shop I will edit this and identify it properly.

It has real V8 race car fly by, lots of percussion, lots of big brass and sax and plenty of synth bass and other noise.

It is by far the funnest OMG song I have ever heard.

All the best,
Barry.

This sounds like a recording I should own. Please update when you have the details on this recording.

Thanks,
Paul

[LowPhreak]

What is "real"? I'll tell you what's real...



"Hi-Fi is All a Scam - Roger Skoff Finally Admits All"


http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue75/skoff.htm


Now that's REALLY real! :blink:

[Maron Horonzakz]

ROGER SKOFF IS CORRECT... But I still seek the holy grail

[JeffW]

What is "real"? I'll tell you what's real...



"Hi-Fi is All a Scam - Roger Skoff Finally Admits All"


http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue75/skoff.htm


Now that's REALLY real! :blink:

What's really sad is that some people won't recognize that as satire.

[frank23]

I have just put my DIY system with the 1200FE/2344+2420 together yesterday and was just thinking that this piano recording I'm playing now sounded more lifelike than I have been used to. I went to a concert a few weeks ago of this piece, by the same pianist, only on another location than the recording that I now play was made. Funny then to see these posts about piano recordings being a reference. According to most sources piano is indeed the hardest to record and reproduce faithfully.

[Mr. Widget]

What's really sad is that some people won't recognize that as satire."THERE IS NO SOUND. Our measurements have proven it!" :applaud: :rotfl: :applaud:

And I thought buying really expensive gear was going to bring Jimi Hendrix back to life. Damn!


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

I have just put my DIY system with the 1200FE/2344+2420 together yesterday and was just thinking that this piano recording I'm playing now sounded more lifelike than... a real piano.

Sorry, I was still mulling over the previous post. :D



I have just put my DIY system with the 1200FE/2344+2420 together yesterday and was just thinking that this piano recording I'm playing now sounded more lifelike than I have been used to. I went to a concert a few weeks ago of this piece, by the same pianist, only on another location than the recording that I now play was made. Funny then to see these posts about piano recordings being a reference. According to most sources piano is indeed the hardest to record and reproduce faithfully.I do agree about piano being extremely difficult to both record and to play back in a way that sounds "real".

When I hear a well recorded piano through my system it really puts a smile on my face. OK, the music needs to be compelling too. ;)


Widget

[speakerdave]

. . . .
OK, the music needs to be compelling too. ;)


Right--no Ferrante and Teischer!

[LowPhreak]

"THERE IS NO SOUND. Our measurements have proven it!" :applaud: :rotfl: :applaud:

And I thought buying really expensive gear was going to bring Jimi Hendrix back to life. Damn!


Widget


Uber gear may be why some have seen Elvis. Why not Jimi? :D

[JuniorJBL]

This sounds like a recording I should own. Please update when you have the details on this recording.

Thanks,
Paul


Yello "Flag" is the album. "One Second" is the album with "Oh Yeah" and it is just as good if not a hair better IMO!!

May I suggest any of their albums. IMO they are all quite fantastic. I have been listening to them since the mid 80's and they are surely one of my go to bands when I want to show off some particular aspect of my system.

Oh and BTW my speakers are more real than your speakers!!! :lol_fit:


Just kidding!! :D

Carry on.

[JeffW]

And I thought buying really expensive gear was going to bring Jimi Hendrix back to life. Damn!


Widget

I'll ask him next time he's over for a beer. Oh wait, you mean YOUR system didn't bring him back to life? :eek:

I'm bringing at least one live piano recording with me to the LVAC meet, we'll see how stacked Ubangis do with it.

[DavidF]

So, two audiophiles are attending a piano recital in a ball room of an old estate. Part way through the program one leans to the other and whispers..."Wowwww, that piano sounds so real!!"

[LowPhreak]

And therein lies the crux of the biscuit...

[JeffW]

So, two audiophiles are attending a piano recital in a ball room of an old estate. Part way through the program one leans to the other and whispers..."Wowwww, that piano sounds so real!!"

They have it made, it's the rest of us schmuks that have to listen to recordings that have to muddle along.

[loach71]

Perception is reality... at least so inside the Washington DC Beltway!:banghead:

[1audiohack]

Haha! Sad but true.

Barry.

[SEAWOLF97]

Perception is reality... at least so inside the Washington DC Beltway!:banghead:

As Mr. Loach knows , reality is when the ground is approaching rapidly, and your shorts are getting warm. At that point, there isn't much sound at all, mainly reflections on a misspent past.

(a nod to yesterdays holiday)

[sonofagun]

I recently was contacted by an audio engineer who has developed over the last several years a new reproduction system which by all measurements and tests (as well as live demos before some industry ears) may be as great an advance in music reproduction as digital was over everything before it. He's still got a few things to get in order before unleashing this to the world but it should be incredible. He's not releasing any further details right now.

[hjames]

Its all websmoke and rumours until its in the market ...
We are talkin' "real" real here - not pipesmoke ...


I recently was contacted by an audio engineer who has developed over the last several years a new reproduction system which by all measurements and tests (as well as live demos before some industry ears) may be as great an advance in music reproduction as digital was over everything before it. He's still got a few things to get in order before unleashing this to the world but it should be incredible. He's not releasing any further details right now.

[Ed Kreamer]

Collegues,

I have always searched for the holy grail of accuracy and in particular the (what I call) the "sheen" of concert presence, one hears in the concert hall but is missing in 90% of all recordings. I'm speaking of classical music here. I'm not looking for perfection, but closer than what we seem to get most of the time. I think that with most pop/rock it is easier to obtain in that they are creations of the studio and cannot be performed in real time. That is not a condemnation, just a statement of fact. Orchestral music is more difficult to record not only in timbral accuracy but also in placement accuracy. (where are those 'cellos supposed to be?) Some labels are better than this than others, Telarc or Delos come to mind....but even then I have found some that are not as good as they should be. It makes me search out certain engineers, Keith Johnson for one, and also the late John Eargle. Both make the orchestra come alive.

We all have the same hearing mechanism but we all perceive differently. And no matter how accurate our playback systems are (for the record I use 3 4410's in front 4 l 20's for the sides and rear and 2 Altec 411's doing vlf duty) we are all at the mercy of the engineer

[LowPhreak]

Much of that's true, Ed, which is why I like rock recordings [many but not all] that were mixed or mastered by greats such as Bob Ludwig, Greg Calbi, Eddie Kramer, and a few others. Sometimes though, the engineers are at the mercy of the producer, record company, or musicians, or the venue and variables that can't be controlled.

But in lieu of a several hundred word dissertation that would probably bore everyone, I'll simply refer back to Roger Skoff's missive that I posted earlier. :thmbsup:

[Maron Horonzakz]

You cant squeeze a full orchestra through a microphone and expect it to sound the same,,,no way hozay

[BMWCCA]

You cant squeeze a full orchestra through a microphone and expect it to sound the same,,,no way hozay

:confused: Why not? We squeeze it through two very small—and probably age-impaired—ear canals, don't we? ;)

[Maron Horonzakz]

Than why shouldn't they both sound the same ???

[BMWCCA]

Than why shouldn't they both sound the same ???

It's either bad microphones or bad engineering. Maybe you need to have your speakers on-stage in a concert hall? So that means room acoustics. You know . . . all the usual variables.

[gasfan]

When all of the gear is performing to it's utmost potential, it's real. All you have to do is fill in the blanks. But you can't if the cues aren't there. If they are, then everything is happening as it should, just to a smaller scale. When my TT is right dead on, I can envision a tiny band playing right there in the groove. In the amp I listen to day in and day out, I can easily hear a 2mv improvement in offset. The 'hobby' part of my interest is purely technical. When that part I have control of is satisfied, musical enjoyment begins regardless of the shortcomings of the source material. Otherwise, where's the fun? Having said that, recordings are neatly arranged according to quality in my memory.

[Fort Knox]

What is "Real"? answer "Big"...2 20ft x 6ft wing pnls w/2pr A7's popping thru @mid ctr pt. f&r
Advantages..elimination: step baffle....200hz dip phase. diffraction &comb fltr,, smear...
harsh..small sound ..image loss ... auditory deception and hair pulling...eq & rev would help

[Ed Kreamer]

Colleagues

I found some plots on the parts express site and attempted to upload them with no success. (I'll have to get my grandson to help me). Two of the plots were the B&W 805D, and the Wilson Sophia. Neither were close to being flat. I do not knowwho generated them, although I suspect they came from Stereophile. Also included was the Revel Salon 2 which was much more accurate. (flat) In our quest for realism, shouldn't the speaker mfr strive to flatten the curve? I was surprised by the non linear curve from the B&W given their reputation, and the pictures I've seen their use at Abby Road. I think I'll keep my 4410's and save up for 3 6332's, as the M2's are out of range.

Ed

[Ed Kreamer]

Oh there they are. The 805 is on your left.

[Horn Fanatic]

Anyone who claims to have invented a loud speaker system that accurately reproduces a philharmonic orchestra, or a church pipe organ, probably has an ample supply of snake oil for sale also for the suckers who believe it. For example, I have heard a pair of Avalon Acoustics Sentinal speakers powered by Mac model 9's, and for $92,000 one would think those speakers would provide just a hint of the tactile feel one gets from listening to a large live string section, or horn section.

I have had conversations with associates who tell me this speaker or that sounds like the real thing. I usually shut them up with one question when I get them to admit they have never heard a live orchestra. I have yet to listen to a speaker system that can reproduce the chills I get from hearing a twelve piece horn section. It's all about exciting the air in the entire room, not just the sweet spot.

[gferrell]

Anyone who claims to have invented a loud speaker system that accurately reproduces a philharmonic orchestra, or a church pipe organ, probably has an ample supply of snake oil for sale also for the suckers who believe it. For example, I have heard a pair of Avalon Acoustics Sentinal speakers powered by Mac model 9's, and for $92,000 one would think those speakers would provide just a hint of the tactile feel one gets from listening to a large live string section, or horn section.

I have had conversations with associates who tell me this speaker or that sounds like the real thing. I usually shut them up with one question when I get them to admit they have never heard a live orchestra. I have yet to listen to a speaker system that can reproduce the chills I get from hearing a twelve piece horn section. It's all about exciting the air in the entire room, not just the sweet spot.

I agree, you can only make your listening room sound good!

[Fort Knox]

Anyone who claims to have invented a loud speaker system that accurately reproduces a philharmonic orchestra, or a church pipe organ, probably has an ample supply of snake oil for sale also for the suckers who believe it. For example, I have heard a pair of Avalon Acoustics Sentinal speakers powered by Mac model 9's, and for $92,000 one would think those speakers would provide just a hint of the tactile feel one gets from listening to a large live string section, or horn section.

I have had conversations with associates who tell me this speaker or that sounds like the real thing. I usually shut them up with one question when I get them to admit they have never heard a live orchestra. I have yet to listen to a speaker system that can reproduce the chills I get from hearing a twelve piece horn section. It's all about exciting the air in the entire room, not just the sweet spot.


Speaking of Orchestra's ..Did you know that Phil Spectors' "Wall of Sound"... put ea musician in a cubical
w/their own mic and added reverb to the final mix....

[Mannermusic]

I agree, you can only make your listening room sound good!

Bingo! And that is something of an art in itself . . . and not necessarily requiring ultra expensive hardware. More a matter of synergy of equipment with the environment. I don't envy Greg Timbers because he never knows who or where his creations are going to be deployed. May sound good or not so good. I guess this is where the digital fitting / equalization is an advantage. But, the whole exercise gets crazy - like a drug. Just "make your listening room sound good." No magic.

[Ed Kreamer]

Colleagues,

I agree with pretty much what has been sad. Audio perfection does not exist, but some seem to get closer than others. I will never get to 10th row center at Benaroa unless I am at 10th row center Benroya. I do find it tiresome however, that we hear in audio salons that only certain brands are "musical" ( what the hell does that mean anyway?) and that JBL ( my choice) just means Big and Loud. I seem to have strayed from my brief. Again.

Is the quest for objective reality worth pursing or is it subjective and only in the ear of the beholder and accuracy be damned?

[gasfan]

Heck yes! Keep it technical whether they like it or not. Damn the torpedoes!!

[hsosdrum]

Colleagues,

Is the quest for objective reality worth pursing or is it subjective and only in the ear of the beholder and accuracy be damned?

There is no such thing as "objective reality" when it comes to sound reproduction, because sound only exists within the listener's brain. The very best we can ever achieve is to create an illusion that succeeds in fooling our brain into believing that what it's perceiving is being created in that moment by real, flesh-and-blood musicians. And since the illusion that will fool one person will likely be different than the illusion that will fool another person, the notion that there could ever be a single sound reproduction system that would create the perfect illusion for each and every listener is an impossiblity. The best any of us can ever hope to achieve is to assemble a system that is ideal for themselves. And once having done so, don't expect it to work the same for anyone else.

[Fort Knox]

There is no such thing as "objective reality" when it comes to sound reproduction, because sound only exists within the listener's brain. The very best we can ever achieve is to create an illusion that succeeds in fooling our brain into believing that what it's perceiving is being created in that moment by real, flesh-and-blood musicians. And since the illusion that will fool one person will likely be different than the illusion that will fool another person, the notion that there could ever be a single sound reproduction system that would create the perfect illusion for each and every listener is an impossiblity. The best any of us can ever hope to achieve is to assemble a system that is ideal for themselves. And once having done so, don't expect it to work the same for anyone else.

The only disagreeing I've noted is between He and She:)

[Fort Knox]

Colleagues,

I agree with pretty much what has been sad. Audio perfection does not exist, but some seem to get closer than others. I will never get to 10th row center at Benaroa unless I am at 10th row center Benroya. I do find it tiresome however, that we hear in audio salons that only certain brands are "musical" ( what the hell does that mean anyway?) and that JBL ( my choice) just means Big and Loud. I seem to have strayed from my brief. Again.

Is the quest for objective reality worth pursing or is it subjective and only in the ear of the beholder and accuracy be damned?

I can tell you what's... not... "musical"
Some sp. are not plug-and-play fresh out the box
They need Eq'g and unfortunately most don't bother...

As for "big" ...the bigger the baffle the bigger the sound...

[turnitdown]

Weeds look like, um weeds