A bit confused , I am ...

[SEAWOLF97]

.
BG: I am a huge minidisc (hereafter called MD) fan. have done home recording since the mid 60's and MD is by far the best system I've used.

For those of you who are wondering what they are , here is reference
http://www.minidisc.org/part_What_are_MiniDiscs.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiniDisc

Anyway, back to topic. Many have noted , besides myself, that a CD that is dubbed to MD CAN sound better than the original CD. Most put this phenomena down to reasoning that the MD deck has a better DAC than the CD deck. Sounds reasonable to me.
But I'm noticing something else ... When I dub LP's to MD , they improve also.
LP's have a 100% sampling rate and no DAC involved.

Since I'd noticed this across different decks , I thought maybe it was cables ? No..I equalized those too. Maybe it is gain mismatch on playback ? So I ran the MD version against the concurrently playing LP , equalized gain and switched A-B through the preamp.
The MD sounds better , despite being a lossy format.

Guesses what's going on ? :dont-know:

[jerry_rig]

My only guess -- and that's all -- is that, through your system, you prefer the ATRAC compression scheme. According to minidisc.org, the format is capable of "near CD'' quality. That generally means that the sampling rate is lower than Red Book's 44.1kHz/16bit PCM. By all rights, it should sound worse than a CD. But even that statement assumes you are using a high quality DAC for CD playback.

Enjoy.

[SEAWOLF97]

My only guess -- and that's all -- is that, through your system, you prefer the ATRAC compression scheme. According to minidisc.org, the format is capable of "near CD'' quality. That generally means that the sampling rate is lower than Red Book's 44.1kHz/16bit PCM. By all rights, it should sound worse than a CD. But even that statement assumes you are using a high quality DAC for CD playback.

Enjoy.

thanx for the reply. I'm going to both link to and quote the page dealing with "near CD'' quality . http://www.minidisc.org/near_cd.html (since it's non-copyrighted opinions). Also note that I'm using ATRAC type R (the Pro version that is later than the types discussed)

The crux of my question tho is : Why do dubbed LP's sound better ? I am not invoking any of the digital filters that are available.

``Near CD'': What does it mean?

There are countless MiniDisc fans who will speak in glowing terms of how MiniDisc is virtually indistinguishable from CD quality audio. But to put the matter in proper perspective we've excerpted a few quotes from members of the audio profession. Most of these concern Sony's older high end MiniDisc deck, the MDS-JA3ES. This represents a fair comparison with CDs since we are discussing the realizable potential of the format, and not the relative quality of various MD machines.
Louis Challis, Electronics Australia, October 1996, Reviewing the top end Sony MDS-JA3ES deck (http://www.minidisc.org/ja3es_review.html):
The [output of the D/A] chip is an audio signal with a spectacular dynamic range and a degree of fidelity which convinced me that any previous claims of lack of fidelity and commonality of quality between Mini Discs and CDs has now become a technically invalid issue. Although Sony claims a theoretical 131dB signal to noise ratio, I believe that what they were actually aiming to achieve was the linearity of an 18-bit system (i.e., 108dB capability). On delving further, that belief was confirmed by my measurements.
...
We ran this A-B testing during two separate sessions encompassing a total period of three hours. After the testing was completed we were satisfied that we could neither identify, nor could we hear any difference between the digital original and the digitally recorded MiniDisc, or the manufacturer's own pre-recorded version of that same disc.
After carrying out numerous additional recordings of my own (on my own), I came to the conclusion that the JA3ES is currently the most convenient, and outstanding digital audio recorder (deck) that I have ever had the pleasure to use, or to audition.


Isao Shibazaki, MJ Audio Technology Magazine, December 1995, Technical Report on Sony's MDS-JA3ES deck (http://www.minidisc.org/mj_ja3es.html#mdquality):
... playing back a 20 bit encoded premastered MD can, depending upon the song, even be felt to exceed a CD.
German Stereo Magazine, July 1996, Discussing Sony's new Fourth Generation ATRAC Audio Compression (http://www.minidisc.org/atrac_4.html):Considering noise, ATRAC 3.5 had already reached CD level, so that MiniDisc can now only go beyond the CD standard. It is not a secret that this is possible.
Edward J. Foster, Audio Magazine, December 1995, MDS-JA3ES Report:
... occasionally the MD copies [of first rate CDs] sounded a bit thicker and a bit harsher than the originals. Yet without the originals for A/B comparison, I'd have little to complain of; I've heard much worse sound on CD. Under the most trying conditions and with program material known to be difficult on a transform algorithm, I can still discern a difference in quality. Nevertheless, the Sony MDS-JA3ES's version of the ATRAC algorithm comes as close to MD perfection as I've heard. With the majority of program material, I think you'll find it essentially transparent.
So, it appears that Sony's ATRAC 3.5 based high end MDS-JA3ES deck can be considered by some professionals to be indistinguishable from, or even better than a CD. Does this mean the new high end machines (MDS-JA50ES, MDS-JA30ES, MDS-JA20ES) based upon the ATRAC 4.5 chip, will be considered by some to be clearly better than CD? Perhaps we will soon have to start clarifying that ``near'' means ``near, though a bit better''. -Eric Woudenberg

[Mr. Widget]

Forget minidisc ... you need to do your next shoot out with another Sony gem, the Elcassette. Or perhaps Betamax HiFi?

Sorry, yes I am being tongue in cheek... with flash memory, cheap hard drives, and streaming, I think it is safe to say that like those earlier Sony formats there is little chance of a minidisc revival. Since they obviously work for you keep on enjoying them whether they are almost as good as mid 90s CDs or perhaps even better.


Widget

[SEAWOLF97]

Forget minidisc ... you need to do your next shoot out with another Sony gem, the Elcassette. Or perhaps Betamax HiFi?

Sorry, yes I am being tongue in cheek... with flash memory, cheap hard drives, and streaming, I think it is safe to say that like those earlier Sony formats there is little chance of a minidisc revival. Since they obviously work for you keep on enjoying them whether they are almost as good as mid 90s CDs or perhaps even better.


Widget

thanx for the non helpful answer.

I worked it IT for many years and have LESS trust in digital than you. Have seen too many dropped/mangeled bits & bytes & data. heck , In the news even the chief of the IRS "lost" her hard drive and it was unrecoverable.

Wouldn't even hope for a MD revival , but there are many out there still doing 10 inch R2R , or even worse ... vinyl LP's . Are you speaking from experience or OOYA ?

OBTW .. 90's crap CDs don't really fit into this question either.

[grumpy]

Caveat: I have never recorded to or critically listened to an MD in any guise or iteration.

That said, if it sounds different from a direct comparison, there is something going on... information reduced or noise/distortion added. People have preferences for different DAC architectures which could have something to do with this (Sony's marketing SNR spec hints to me a scheme I used ~15? years ago...not for audio). In this case there can be LP "info" above the MD ADC filter cutoff that -may- then pass a signal thru the ATRAC/DAC chain in a way that unsettles the rest of the playback system less, or less than what comes out of your phono pre. I have not read up on ATRAC... any interchannel info used for compression optimization, might change soundstage perspective...

Wild ass guesses.

What can you describe that sounds "better"? Not sure what you're hearing.

To be clear, I'm not interested in MD, but perception due to signal processing can be interesting.

[Mr. Widget]

To be clear, I'm not interested in MD, but perception due to signal processing can be interesting.
+1


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

thanx for the non helpful answer.

I worked it IT for many years and have LESS trust in digital than you. Have seen too many dropped/mangeled bits & bytes & data. heck , In the news even the chief of the IRS "lost" her hard drive and it was unrecoverable.

Wouldn't even hope for a MD revival , but there are many out there still doing 10 inch R2R , or even worse ... vinyl LP's . Are you speaking from experience or OOYA ?

OBTW .. 90's crap CDs don't really fit into this question either.I have no issue with digital as long as the resolution isn't a limiting factor to the final application. I actually love the way digital can be copied, stored, and manipulated. And as far as unrecoverable data goes I keep my music on three separate hard drives in three separate locations and feel pretty confident in that.

10 inch R2R is a bad thing? That is the format of many master tapes and like it or not, degradation notwithstanding that is the original and that is what must be reproduced accurately.

In any event I have no personal experience with the MiniDisc. I do find it interesting and impressive that Sony has come out with many original formats over the years, but like CDs and every other format they all have their limitations.

Regarding 90s CDs I only brought that up because that was the era of the articles you were quoting. Both CDs and A/D and D/A conversion have improved markedly since then.

As far as your enjoyment of MiniDiscs, I think it's great! Most people are trying to get away from physical storage but I can appreciate wanting to have a library of disks, especially if you already have the players.


Widget

[SEAWOLF97]

In any event I have no personal experience with the MiniDisc. I do find it interesting and impressive that Sony has come out with many original formats over the years, but like CDs and every other format they all have their limitations.
Widget

Sony was an interesting company in the 70's/80's/90's , but seem to have lost their leadership/mojo after that. They were innovative and did gamble on formats that did not work out (notable Elcassette) . They did develop both VHS & Beta , but sold off VHS as being the inferior format. :crying: (bet they wish they had a do-over on that one)

They also shot themselves in the foot with proprietary batteries & memory in the digital camera arena. But they have a pretty good ratio of hits vs. misses. (mmm, JBL is in that boat too)

Sony finally stopped making MD hardware in 2013, but continue to produce the media. I talked to a radio station sound tech , who was telling me that the portables are still used for field recording ...80 minutes a disk , 53 hours operation on a single AA battery , field editing capability ..etc.

I can hook up either optical or USB to my PC and copy as other digi files.

IF we ever cross paths, I'll happily hook even a little MD portable to your system of choice and then you will have some experience.

A little more: if you understand the why & how of HD defragging , my little Fruity devices are static ram, but must do it at some point to reclaim capacity.
Random tunes get corrupted on some basis. They either become unplayable or pick up fuzz or clicking.
I keep backups too. And rarely discard physical media , despite the current trends.

[grumpy]

"They did develop both VHS & Beta"

hmm... I always thought VHS was a JVC developed format... (?)
(not that it's particularly pertinent to the subject).

at least you know I'm reading your post :)

[BMWCCA]

They did develop both VHS & Beta , but sold off VHS as being the inferior format. :crying: (bet they wish they had a do-over on that one)Their own fault. The kept the Beta format proprietary so there was no growth in the marketplace. By the time they gave up trying to go solo and let others manufacture decks in Beta format, it was too late. There was also the problem of Sony assuming the general public wanted quality over price. We know that never works out. ;)

Never heard that claim that Sony invented both. I thought VHS was from JVC?

I think I finally dumped my Beta decks a while back . . .

[SEAWOLF97]

"They did develop both VHS & Beta"

hmm... I always thought VHS was a JVC developed format... (?)
(not that it's particularly pertinent to the subject).

at least you know I'm reading your post :)

well of course , I can't find that link when I want it. maybe developed is the wrong word , maybe it was the concept/intellectual rights/designs , and yes, JVC licensed and produced and supported themselves with VHS.

I think it was a NYT story on techno blunders of the era. Ie; DCC and the DIVX DVD player that started Circuit City's downfall, Lisa ..etc.

[Mr. Widget]

IF we ever cross paths, I'll happily hook even a little MD portable to your system of choice and then you will have some experience.Hop on that bike and come on down Highway1... it's a beautiful ride!:bouncy:

If you do get to the SF area, I'd love a demo.


Widget

[SEAWOLF97]

Hop on that bike and come on down Highway1... it's a beautiful ride!:bouncy:

If you do get to the SF area, I'd love a demo.


Widget

THAT is my dream ride, but extended all the way to Sandy Eggo. Did it a couple of times in the old MGB roadster. Incomparable scenery.

My other Dream Ride is SGN to HAN on a supported tour ..

Oh yes , minidisks .... I had dubbed the soundtrack of "V for Vendetta" to MD and it was laying about when the Canadian buyer for my 2nd pair of 250Ti's showed up. Tossed that one in only as it was most handy. The guy was blown away and asked "what kind of SACD are you using" ? Showed him the disc and he didn't even know what it was . :dont-know: