4343 polarity

[pyonc]

Hi guys,

I see some great threads on 4343 polarity in this forum, and get confused each time I read.
Currently my set-up in a bi-amp mode is as follows. I use an Ashly active 24dB Octave crossover:

LF: Speaker terminal BLACK goes to RED on the amp
M/HF: Speaker terminal BLACK goes to BLACK on the amp

I read from the threads that woofer is out of phase with mid/high in stock 4343.
Please advise me if this set-up is wrong.
Thanks much for your ruling in advance.

[hjames]

Hi guys,

I see some great threads on 4343 polarity in this forum, and get confused each time I read.
Currently my set-up in a bi-amp mode is as follows. I use an Ashly active 24dB Octave crossover:

LF: Speaker terminal BLACK goes to RED on the amp
M/HF: Speaker terminal BLACK goes to BLACK on the amp

Please advise me if this set-up is wrong.
Thanks much for your ruling in advance.

Sounds like the right way to go for the LF driver in your configuration ...

[pyonc]

Sounds like the right way to go for the LF driver in your configuration ...

How about M/HF? Some say speaker Black goes to amp RED.
Is the woofer supposed to be out of phase with M/HF in stock 4343?
My current set-up looks that way.

[hjames]

How about M/HF? Some say speaker Black goes to amp RED.
Is the woofer supposed to be out of phase with M/HF in stock 4343?
My current set-up looks that way.
Pretty sure that's correct - the Woofer gets connected backwards, the rest are normal polarity.

[martin2395]

@hjames, how is that?
All units in the 4343 have the same polarity (outward cone movement with positive voltage on black terminal) and the JBL tech note states that the 4343 by itself is also positive black.
Is there a phase shift while running the 4343 in active mode? :dont-know:

I'm very curious if that's true that the mid/hi section is out of phase with the woofer!

[hjames]

@hjames, how is that?
All units in the 4343 have the same polarity (outward cone movement with positive voltage on black terminal) and the JBL tech note states that the 4343 by itself is also positive black.
Is there a phase shift while running the 4343 in active mode? :dont-know:

I'm very curious if that's true that the mid/hi section is out of phase with the woofer!

Its NOT the stock crossover, Pyonc is using an Ashly External Crossover with 24db Slope -
that flips the bass out of alignment with the other drivers ...


Currently my set-up in a bi-amp mode is as follows. I use an Ashly active 24dB Octave crossover:

[martin2395]

I read that pyonc is using an active x-over but I've been told only to flip the polarity if the crossover has 18dB/oct slope and don't touch anything if it's 12 or 24db.

[hjames]

I read that pyonc is using an active x-over but I've been told only to flip the polarity
if the crossover has 18dB/oct slope and don't touch anything if it's 12 or 24db.

He's asked the same Q a couple times now - figure its best if he tries it for himself and see's what HE thinks ...
Giving him the right answer in the past has not cured his questioning

[pyonc]

He's asked the same Q a couple times now - figure its best if he tries it for himself and see's what HE thinks ...
Giving him the right answer in the past has not cured his questioning

That's true, but I thought I got the right set-up (LF out of phase with M/HF):)
Then I got somewhat confused after reading the thread by martin2395, as he also mentioned here.:blink:
Now I think I have the right configuration if hjames's statement is true.
Again, this seems to have something to do with the type of active crossover, 12dB, 18dB or 24dB octave...
Anyway, I come to learn many things while reading you guys' great threads on this issue.
Thanks much again.

[hjames]

Which sound did you like better?
Woofer: black-black, red-red or reversed?

Whatever you do has to be that way on both speakers at the same time or its not a good test.

It not about what I say - educate your ears!!


That's true, but I thought I got the right set-up (LF out of phase with M/HF):)
Then I got somewhat confused after reading the thread by martin2395, as he also mentioned here.:blink:
Now I think I have the right configuration if hjames's statement is true.
Again, this seems to have something to do with the type of active crossover, 12dB, 18dB or 24dB octave...
Anyway, I come to learn many things while reading you guys' great threads on this issue.
Thanks much again.

[Robh3606]

Again, this seems to have something to do with the type of active crossover, 12dB, 18dB or 24dB octave...
Anyway, I come to learn many things while reading you guys' great threads on this issue.


Typical rule of thumb 12db reverse polarity, 18db listen to see which sounds best, 24db same polarity. Just remember we are talking about acoustic polarity independant of how a driver may appear to be wired.

Rob:)

[pyonc]

Which sound did you like better?
Woofer: black-black, red-red or reversed?

Whatever you do has to be that way on both speakers at the same time or its not a good test.

It not about what I say - educate your ears!!

Well, I'm not so sure which sounds better.:blink:
Like you said, I think I need to train my ears better.

[ngccglp]

Well, I'm not so sure which sounds better.:blink:
Like you said, I think I need to train my ears better.

Hi assuming that the internal connections of all the drivers are all correct, then just connect red to red and black to black for both high and low frequencies. I asked Kenji from Jbl43.com and that's his reply. After having refurbished so many jbl, I trust his recommendations.

[pyonc]

Hi assuming that the internal connections of all the drivers are all correct, then just connect red to red and black to black for both high and low frequencies. I asked Kenji from Jbl43.com and that's his reply. After having refurbished so many jbl, I trust his recommendations.


Thanks for sharing Kenji's tip. I do see lots of Kenji's JBL systems on YouTube, too.
Kenji's advice seems to be in line with stock 4343 configuration.
If I follow Kenji's advice, my biamp set-up would be like this:
woofer cone will move in :speaker terminal black (+) to amp black (-)
mid/highs will move out : speaker terminal red (-) to amp red (+)
(this is the outcome of my battery test)

However, I reversed the woofer wiring like this:
speaker terminal black (+) to amp RED (+), speaker red (-) to amp BLACK (+).
So, woofers and mid/highs move in the same direction for better sonic effects.
What do you think?

[hjames]

Having the woofer out of phase gives a sharper edge to the cutoff (crossover) between low and mid drivers.


Thanks for sharing Kenji's tip. I do see lots of Kenji's JBL systems on YouTube, too.
Kenji's advice seems to be in line with stock 4343 configuration.
If I follow Kenji's advice, my biamp set-up would be like this:
woofer cone will move in :speaker terminal black (+) to amp black (-)
mid/highs will move out : speaker terminal red (-) to amp red (+)
(this is the outcome of my battery test)

However, I reversed the woofer wiring like this:
speaker terminal black (+) to amp RED (+), speaker red (-) to amp BLACK (+).
So, woofers and mid/highs move in the same direction for better sonic effects.
What do you think?

[pyonc]

Having the woofer out of phase gives a sharper edge to the cutoff (crossover) between low and mid drivers.

Thanks, hjames.
So, do you mean the cone of the woofer should move IN, not OUT?:blink:

[hjames]

Thanks, hjames.
So, do you mean the cone of the woofer should move IN, not OUT?:blink:



Having the woofer out of phase gives a sharper edge to the cutoff (crossover) between low and mid drivers.


When the woofer cone move IN as the other drivers cones move OUT,
then the woofer is considered Out of Phase.

[martin2395]

Maybe we should ask the people who engineerd the 4343?

I will try to find someone with REW or any other measurement software to check what polarity is the best.
Quite frankly I would be very surprised if the 2231/2235 actually had inward cone motion in vintage 43xx monitors :o

[pyonc]

Maybe we should ask the people who engineerd the 4343?

I will try to find someone with REW or any other measurement software to check what polarity is the best.
Quite frankly I would be very surprised if the 2231/2235 actually had inward cone motion in vintage 43xx monitors :o

Have you done the battery test like me? I'm curious how your woofers respond.

With 1.5v AA, this is what I did for LF:
black (+) speaker terminal to AA+, the woofer moved OUT.
red (-) speaker terminal to AA +, the woofer moved IN.

For mid (2121), speaker RED to AA +, cone moved OUT
speaker Blk to AA +, cone moved IN

[martin2395]

Yes, I did and all units used in the 4343 have outward cone movement with "AA+" voltage applied on the black terminal.

In other words:
Positive+ voltage on RED terminal - Inward cone movement
Positive+ voltage on BLACK terminal - Outward cone movement

[pyonc]

Yes, I did and all units used in the 4343 have outward cone movement with "AA+" voltage applied on the black terminal.

In other words:
Positive+ voltage on RED terminal - Inward cone movement
Positive+ voltage on BLACK terminal - Outward cone movement

It's exactly the same as mine, and it's in line with stock 4343!
So, you did connect BLACK terminal to BLACK on amp, and RED terminal to RED on amp, right?

[Odd]

60527
60528

[martin2395]

It's exactly the same as mine, and it's in line with stock 4343!
So, you did connect BLACK terminal to BLACK on amp, and RED terminal to RED on amp, right?

Not exactly :D If your 4343's were 100% stock then you would have to connect the black terminal on the back of your 4343 to the red terminal on your amp.
It is also mentioned in the 12th tech bulletin that all 43xx series monitor except the 4311 and 12 are positive black / negative red.

I wired mine to modern standards so that I have outward cone motion with red terminal of the 4343 connected to the red terminal on my amplifier.
The units inside are wired like this now: every "color+black" wire from the passive network goes to the red terminal on the unit.

As far as I know the stock connection was "color+black" wire goes to the black terminal of the unit and then the complete 4343 was negative(-) on the red connector.
IF there was no phase shift needed of course! I haven't figured that out yet...
I hope to receive my Crown K2 tomorrow evening and do some testing in combination with a 24db/Oct BSS FDS360 active crossover set up for 300Hz.
The speaker cable for the lows is connected directly to the woofer for easy testing and to omit that rubbish rotary switch.

[hjames]

Not exactly :D If your 4343's were 100% stock then you would have to connect the black terminal on the back of your 4343 to the red terminal on your amp.
It is also mentioned in the 12th tech bulletin that all 43xx series monitor except the 4311 and 12 are positive black / negative red.

I wired mine to modern standards so that I have outward cone motion with red terminal of the 4343 connected to the red terminal on my amplifier.
The units inside are wired like this now: every "color+black" wire from the passive network goes to the red terminal on the unit.

As far as I know the stock connection was "color+black" wire goes to the black terminal of the unit and then the complete 4343 was negative(-) on the red connector.
IF there was no phase shift needed of course! I haven't figured that out yet...
I hope to receive my Crown K2 tomorrow evening and do some testing in combination with a 24db/Oct BSS FDS360 active crossover set up for 300Hz.
The speaker cable for the lows is connected directly to the woofer for easy testing and to omit that rubbish rotary switch.

Look at the wiring diagram in the first attachment Odd posted - you'll see the Woofer is connected backward between hot and ground, relative to the other 3 drivers.


60527

[pyonc]

Not exactly :D If your 4343's were 100% stock then you would have to connect the black terminal on the back of your 4343 to the red terminal on your amp.
It is also mentioned in the 12th tech bulletin that all 43xx series monitor except the 4311 and 12 are positive black / negative red.

I wired mine to modern standards so that I have outward cone motion with red terminal of the 4343 connected to the red terminal on my amplifier.
The units inside are wired like this now: every "color+black" wire from the passive network goes to the red terminal on the unit.

As far as I know the stock connection was "color+black" wire goes to the black terminal of the unit and then the complete 4343 was negative(-) on the red connector.
IF there was no phase shift needed of course! I haven't figured that out yet...
I hope to receive my Crown K2 tomorrow evening and do some testing in combination with a 24db/Oct BSS FDS360 active crossover set up for 300Hz.
The speaker cable for the lows is connected directly to the woofer for easy testing and to omit that rubbish rotary switch.

Actually, that's what I've done for LF, terminal black (+) to amp red (+). And the outcome is woofers moving outward.
Now, as for M/HF, terminal black to amp black/ terminal red to amp red. And the outcome is mid(2121) cones moving outward.
The problem in this setting is, as hjames has pointed out, woofers are In phase with M/HF, not out of phase per JBL 4343 spec, right?:blink:
What do you think?

[martin2395]

Actually, that's what I've done for LF, terminal black (+) to amp red (+). And the outcome is woofers moving outward.
Now, as for M/HF, terminal black to amp black/ terminal red to amp red. And the outcome is mid(2121) cones moving outward.
The problem in this setting is, as hjames has pointed out, woofers are In phase with M/HF, not out of phase per JBL 4343 spec, right?:blink:
What do you think?

Did you test the 2121 connected to the crossover or directly to the amp? The 2121 by itself has outward cone movement with positive voltage on black terminal (the same as the woofer)

BTW my goal is to make the 4343 positive "+" red so that I just have to connect red terminal of the speaker to the red terminal of my amplifier.

[pyonc]

Did you test the 2121 connected to the crossover or directly to the amp? The 2121 by itself has outward cone movement with positive voltage on black terminal (the same as the woofer)

BTW my goal is to make the 4343 positive "+" red so that I just have to connect red terminal of the speaker to the red terminal of my amplifier.


Well, when I tested 2121 with AA battery, the cone moved IN with terminal BLACK to + on AA. This is the opposite of the cone movement.:blink:

By the way, with terminal BLACK to + on AA, the woofer moved OUT for the low (2231A).

[martin2395]

Funny that my 2121 did just the opposite :D

Though I did some listening yesterday with the K2 on the lows and I preferred the woofers in phase with other units.

[hjames]

One other Question ... are these the only speakers you have playing in that room - or do these speakers have to play with other systems nearby?
(I ran my 4341s as Front mains and when I watched TV, movies or surround SACDs,
they played with a B380 Sub as well as other speakers like L100T3s for sides and L20Ts for rears).

If you DO play them with other speakers, it is important that ALL your woofers are in phase or your Bass gets cancelled/reduced.

If they are the only 2 speakers in the room then they only need to match each other.




Actually, that's what I've done for LF, terminal black (+) to amp red (+). And the outcome is woofers moving outward.
Now, as for M/HF, terminal black to amp black/ terminal red to amp red. And the outcome is mid(2121) cones moving outward.
The problem in this setting is, as hjames has pointed out, woofers are In phase with M/HF, not out of phase per JBL 4343 spec, right?:blink:
What do you think?

[pyonc]

Funny that my 2121 did just the opposite :D

Though I did some listening yesterday with the K2 on the lows and I preferred the woofers in phase with other units.

Yea, if you prefer that way, then it's your choice and you have to keep it.
Frankly speaking, I see little difference in sonic quality in terms of "out of phase" and "in phase" condition when I listen to music...:)

[pyonc]

Funny that my 2121 did just the opposite :D

Though I did some listening yesterday with the K2 on the lows and I preferred the woofers in phase with other units.

Now I know for sure that what you said was right: all units in the mid cone and woofer are all negative (inward cone movement when the + voltage applied to red terminal). Like woofer, it should move in when you apply + voltage to red for this 2121. In my case, it moves OUT.
It's clear that my previous owner did change the internal wiring of the mid cone to the opposite of stock 4343 wiring. :confused: