California Audio Show 2013

[Dan]

Here are some pics from the CAS 2013 last week end held at the Westin Hotel, Milbrae, SF Bay Area.

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JBL inspired Linn Audio Athenaeum

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2 way 15" + wave guide, crossover point 1.2K, price $50K

Very smooth mid/high, good high frequency extension, lacks mid bass/ bass, did not image well. Demo CD was Diana Krall live in Paris which I am very familiar with. Her voice was very very smooth. I could hardly hear the up right bass guitar. Active xover optional. Demo was the passive version. Amps were Pass Labs.

More pics to come.

Dan

[Dan]

Altec inspired design using vintage Altec drivers

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Excellent imaging, dynamics. I think it needs a tweeter, lacks the sizzle. Good integration of bass and horn, good slam on the mid bass. Voices float inbetween the L and R speaker. Not sure on price. I think I over heard them saying about $60K ???

Dan

[martin_wu99]

Very impressive,more pics please:applaud:

[DavidF]

Hi Dan. Good to know someone else among this group was there. I could not spend the enough time up there as I wanted to this year.

Linn’s company has been around for a while. The operations moved to Oakland CA sometime recently from the east coast. He favors high efficiency designs and compression driver top ends. His forte had been huge 7 foot dual woofer designs. This single woofer model was probably an attempt to get some sales in a smaller format market. Can be pricey.

The Burwell family are all really great audio enthusiasts. Fun to talk to and sincere folks. The systems are expensive at $60-80,000. They look around for vintage drivers and hand-craft their own horns and cabinets. Way out of my range for me to consider on price, plus, I just don’t care for the rolled off bass of the A-7 style configuration. I agree they are soft in the treble but they have some valid reasons for not trying to plug in a small ultra-high driver. Much smoother and balanced than any Altec I have heard.

Lot’s of special 2-way speaker systems on display for this show. From Fritz speakers on the low end to Wilson Duette II, Audio Note and YG Carmel at the upper end.
The Wilson actually got a WOW reaction out of me. The room was moderate sized conference room but what I first noticed was the up-against-the-wall position. Second was the punch, power and clarity from an 8 inch two-way playing Stevie Ray Vaughn at an appropriately high sound level. Wilson designed the system for near-wall positioning. Soundstage and imaging did not appear to suffer. Expensive at $20kor a little less but a first class choice for dynamic, clear sound in a small package that does not have to placed out in the actual living space of a living room.

[Fort Knox]

Hi Dan. Good to know someone else among this group was there. I could not spend the enough time up there as I wanted to this year.

Linn’s company has been around for a while. The operations moved to Oakland CA sometime recently from the east coast. He favors high efficiency designs and compression driver top ends. His forte had been huge 7 foot dual woofer designs. This single woofer model was probably an attempt to get some sales in a smaller format market. Can be pricey.

The Burwell family are all really great audio enthusiasts. Fun to talk to and sincere folks. The systems are expensive at $60-80,000. They look around for vintage drivers and hand-craft their own horns and cabinets. Way out of my range for me to consider on price, plus, I just don’t care for the rolled off bass of the A-7 style configuration. I agree they are soft in the treble but they have some valid reasons for not trying to plug in a small ultra-high driver. Much smoother and balanced than any Altec I have heard.

Lot’s of special 2-way speaker systems on display for this show. From Fritz speakers on the low end to Wilson Duette II, Audio Note and YG Carmel at the upper end.
The Wilson actually got a WOW reaction out of me. The room was moderate sized conference room but what I first noticed was the up-against-the-wall position. Second was the punch, power and clarity from an 8 inch two-way playing Stevie Ray Vaughn at an appropriately high sound level. Wilson designed the system for near-wall positioning. Soundstage and imaging did not appear to suffer. Expensive at $20kor a little less but a first class choice for dynamic, clear sound in a small package that does not have to placed out in the actual living space of a living room.


Nice professional sounding feedback on sp. performance....got any pics on the Wilson?

[DavidF]

Nice professional sounding feedback on sp. performance....got any pics on the Wilson?

No original pictures from me. I never seem to think ahead to bring a camera.

Jason Serinus of Stereophile has always been in attendance at the show I can point one of his pictures. I could also second his comments on the Wilsons. Not going to pry my affection away from my ersatz Array 1400s but I could easily live with them if I couldn't fit large boxes into my domicile.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/cas-2013-day-one-scaling-heights


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[Dan]

59757

The Alexia is a compact version of the Alexandria XLF. They share the same 7" mid and 1" tweeter. The Alexia uses an 8" and 10" woofer. Bass port is located at the back facing the wall. Drivers are time aligned.

The demo room was a small function room in the hotel at least about 10 times larger than a regular hotel room. The speakers were set up close to the wall and far apart from each other. I don't think it was designed to be set up this way since the design goal of the Alexia is to fit in confined spaces.

They were playing it loud. Almost party loud. The mid/high was very smooth. No break up and well integrated. The bass was a bit boomy and powerful. You could see the bass drivers move in and out like a pump. Similar to small subwoofers. It seemed like it was playing more than what was in the recording bass wise. They were using vinyl for the demo.

Although the Alexia could play loud it lacked the dynamics of a high efficiancy speaker. Sensitivity is 90db.

It was difficult for me to evaluate imaging. I could not find a sweet spot at the listening position. I think the room was too big and the speakers were too far apart.

As a compact speaker the Alexia is very good. Price is $50K pair.

Comparable speaker would be the B&W 800 Diamond series $24K pair. What sets these two speakers a part is the xover point of the the mid/tweeter. B&W 800 is at 4K and the Alexia is at 1K (?).



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Dan

[Dave_72]

Wow, $50-$60k for each of those...wouldn't you say overpriced? Maybe not. I just can't help thinking that, however.

[Fort Knox]

Wow, $50-$60k for each of those...wouldn't you say overpriced? Maybe not. I just can't help thinking that, however.

I read Jasons report on the "light" SHOW attendance ..even on Saterday..
Equipment prices could be blamed of that..Domestic guys shoudn't let
foreign money fool them..Undersell (like they did) and retake the market
back//

[4313B]

Wow, $50-$60k for each of those...wouldn't you say overpriced?They're targeting a specific personality disorder.
Equipment prices could be blamed of that..Income inequality is more severe in the U.S. than it is in nearly all of West Africa, North Africa, Europe, and Asia. We're on par with some of the world's most troubled countries, and not far from the perpetual conflict zones of Latin American and Sub-Saharan Africa. Our income gap is also getting worse, having widened both in absolute and relative terms since the 1980s. It's not a problem that the "Buffett rule" would solve on its own, but at least the U.S. political system is starting to acknowledge how serious things have become.

[Dave_72]

They're targeting a specific personality disorder.Income inequality is more severe in the U.S. than it is in nearly all of West Africa, North Africa, Europe, and Asia. We're on par with some of the world's most troubled countries, and not far from the perpetual conflict zones of Latin American and Sub-Saharan Africa. Our income gap is also getting worse, having widened both in absolute and relative terms since the 1980s. It's not a problem that the "Buffett rule" would solve on its own, but at least the U.S. political system is starting to acknowledge how serious things have become.

True regarding the disorder. Yes, unfortunately that's true as well. It's becoming more and more difficult to get into high end audio for most.

[Dave_72]

I read Jasons report on the "light" SHOW attendance ..even on Saterday..
Equipment prices could be blamed of that..Domestic guys shoudn't let
foreign money fool them..Undersell (like they did) and retake the market
back//

I see. Good point. I agree with that.

[Mr. Widget]

True regarding the disorder. Yes, unfortunately that's true as well. It's becoming more and more difficult to get into high end audio for most.The state of income inequality in the US is most disheartening, but there is no way we can discuss it without a political discussion and ensuing ugliness.

Regarding the state of the "High End"... there are countless used bargains out there. If you are willing to forego the convenience of a remote and go back to the older Levinson, Threshold, Audio Research etc. pieces, there are fantastic sounding pieces for hundreds not thousands and as we all know, there are many large older speakers that people have abandoned due to their size and styling. As for new gear, even the entry level digital has gotten much better, and for a few hundred dollars you can get a modern DAC that is better than an early very high end model.

Personally I think the easiest way to have very high end sound at a reasonable cost is to play vinyl records via older gear... I don't mean lower end or very vintage gear, but an older Linn or even a nice Rega with a nice cartridge can be had for a very reasonable price and with an older high end preamp it will sound very close to the very best of what is available today.


Widget

[Fort Knox]

The state of income inequality in the US is most disheartening, but there is no way we can discuss it without a political discussion and ensuing ugliness.

Regarding the state of the "High End"...
Widget

How about "Next year's Audio Show....(to generate more interest)
Invite OLD High End vs. New... put a space aside for
Showing Off Old Polished systems....and Compare sound to see if
the new stuff's worth the carrots your putting out for it:)

[Mr. Widget]

How about "Next year's Audio Show....(to generate more interest)
Invite OLD High End vs. New... put a space aside for
Showing Off Old Polished systems....and Compare sound to see if
the new stuff's worth the carrots your putting out for it:)HiFi shows are not altruistic ventures... The purpose is to sell goods. If a vintage retailer wanted to fund such a demo it could happen, but I don't see it as very likely. ;)


Widget

[Dave_72]

The state of income inequality in the US is most disheartening, but there is no way we can discuss it without a political discussion and ensuing ugliness.

Regarding the state of the "High End"... there are countless used bargains out there. If you are willing to forego the convenience of a remote and go back to the older Levinson, Threshold, Audio Research etc. pieces, there are fantastic sounding pieces for hundreds not thousands and as we all know, there are many large older speakers that people have abandoned due to their size and styling. As for new gear, even the entry level digital has gotten much better, and for a few hundred dollars you can get a modern DAC that is better than an early very high end model.

Personally I think the easiest way to have very high end sound at a reasonable cost is to play vinyl records via older gear... I don't mean lower end or very vintage gear, but an older Linn or even a nice Rega with a nice cartridge can be had for a very reasonable price and with an older high end preamp it will sound very close to the very best of what is available today.


Widget

Of course it would get political.

Good points there. I do see used stuff from the 80s and 90s go for reasonable prices.

It just seems that the motivating factor for quite a few high end companies is high profits rather than advancing the state of the art.

Then you have the distributors of imported goods who jack up the prices 3 times or more. High profits are the name of the game there too.

You can buy from the home country, but then you got the voltage issue and the resale value to sell here is diminished.

But, there's dealers out there who are willing to give deals on top dollar stuff. I'm talking at least 30 percent off. This is if you buy say 3 or more pieces of course. A "package deal" in other words.

[DavidF]

Of course it would get political.

Good points there. I do see used stuff from the 80s and 90s go for reasonable prices.

It just seems that the motivating factor for quite a few high end companies is high profits rather than advancing the state of the art.

Then you have the distributors of imported goods who jack up the prices 3 times or more. High profits are the name of the game there too.

You can buy from the home country, but then you got the voltage issue and the resale value to sell here is diminished.

But, there's dealers out there who are willing to give deals on top dollar stuff. I'm talking at least 30 percent off. This is if you buy say 3 or more pieces of course. A "package deal" in other words.

Frankly, high profits and state of the art don't bother me. To achieve the very best requires exponentially higher investment. High profits and mediocrity is another matter.

I enjoy these shows to hear what can be achieved at a higher level. This allows me to better gauge what I can realistically put together in terms of equipment. A sense of value, if you will. It also allows me to hear faults in other equipment (or environments) that I may have otherwise thought plagued only my set up.

[4313B]

The state of income inequality in the US is most disheartening, but there is no way we can discuss it without a political discussion and ensuing ugliness.There is nothing really to discuss. It's just a fact that the market has contracted significantly. Audio certainly isn't the only casualty.
A sense of value, if you will.I invariably walk away from them happy with what I have and surprised at what people think things are worth. :)

[Dave_72]

Frankly, high profits and state of the art don't bother me. To achieve the very best requires exponentially higher investment. High profits and mediocrity is another matter.

I enjoy these shows to hear what can be achieved at a higher level. This allows me to better gauge what I can realistically put together in terms of equipment. A sense of value, if you will. It also allows me to hear faults in other equipment (or environments) that I may have otherwise thought plagued only my set up.

Well, there is a lot of high profits and mediocrity too. You just gotta be careful or else make some expensive mistakes.

I agree. That is why I go to CES here in Vegas every year for the past 9 years. Which is how long I've been living down here.

[Fort Knox]

HiFi shows are not altruistic ventures... The purpose is to sell goods. If a vintage retailer wanted to fund such a demo it could happen, but I don't see it as very likely. ;)


Widget

Lets take a look at the word "altruistic"...if you apply it to our one sided Stereo Shows
and then say "politics can get ugly" in the same sentence...you've created an oxymoron..
Foreign audiofiles' hands are tied by huge government export taxes on manufactured goods.:(

[badman]

How many here have used felt, or foam, on their baffles? Just about every serious DIYer plays with this and/or bevels and roundovers.

Why is it that Wilson was willing to live with horrid worst-case diffraction until the most recent models? And why did they get reviewed well?

Expectation bias, the value of advertising dollars, and impressive knuckle-rap tests.

Junky speakers though. I'd go so far as to call the L100 only slightly more colored than your typical wilson.

[macaroonie]

How many here have used felt, or foam, on their baffles? Just about every serious DIYer plays with this and/or bevels and roundovers.

Why is it that Wilson was willing to live with horrid worst-case diffraction until the most recent models? And why did they get reviewed well?

Expectation bias, the value of advertising dollars, and impressive knuckle-rap tests.

Junky speakers though. I'd go so far as to call the L100 only slightly more colored than your typical wilson.

+1 What is Wilson all about ? What did I see once in their spiel , cabs made with 'W material' obviously a hand selected limited edition of MDF.

[4313B]

Why is it that Wilson was willing to live with horrid worst-case diffraction until the most recent models? And why did they get reviewed well?They merely pretend that it doesn't exist and then, poof! - it doesn't. :) The world of Audio is full of fantasy pretend stuff. Someone recently made a reference to comic con in another thread. At least comic con keeps it all out in the open so one isn't left wondering about the clowns surrounding them. :rotfl: I really can't fault JBL for cooking up a $65,000 pair of loudspeakers and playing in that asinine arena. At least their transducers total up to something like 15% of the MSRP.

[Greg86z28]

How do some of these high end speakers compare to the 1400 array setups or 250Tis, 4344, 4435, etc?

Is it like previously said, that to get better, you start paying exponentially more for small gains?

[JuniorJBL]

I go to RMAF every year to see all the crazy expensive stuff and get a free Parts express screwdriver!:D

When I get home and turn on the "DIY" 1400 arrays, I am happy to say that they reside in "My" listening room and I want nothing more than what I have.;)

[Dave_72]

How do some of these high end speakers compare to the 1400 array setups or 250Tis, 4344, 4435, etc?

Good question.

[Dave_72]

How many here have used felt, or foam, on their baffles? Just about every serious DIYer plays with this and/or bevels and roundovers.

Why is it that Wilson was willing to live with horrid worst-case diffraction until the most recent models? And why did they get reviewed well?

Expectation bias, the value of advertising dollars, and impressive knuckle-rap tests.

Junky speakers though. I'd go so far as to call the L100 only slightly more colored than your typical wilson.

I'm not impressed with Wilson either. Good call.

[Dave_72]

I really can't fault JBL for cooking up a $65,000 pair of loudspeakers and playing in that asinine arena. At least their transducers total up to something like 15% of the MSRP.

There's some nice deals on high end JBL, though. I paid just over half price for the S4700s. I don't know of any other high end speakers that are discounted that much...

[DavidF]

How many here have used felt, or foam, on their baffles? Just about every serious DIYer plays with this and/or bevels and roundovers.

Why is it that Wilson was willing to live with horrid worst-case diffraction until the most recent models? And why did they get reviewed well?

Expectation bias, the value of advertising dollars, and impressive knuckle-rap tests.

Junky speakers though. I'd go so far as to call the L100 only slightly more colored than your typical wilson.

Junky? Don't know 'bout that. If the speakers I heard at this show are junk, then I must assume my ears are junk. I know better and I know that I enjoyed the hell of listening to the Duettes.

[Mr. Widget]

I'm not impressed with Wilson either. Good call.I hate their aesthetic, but I have heard very good sound from some of the Wilsons... and I have been disappointed by others. I think every brand has a few products that stand out among their ranks and others that don't fare quite as well.

How do the 1400 Arrays compare? It is virtually impossible to be truly objective and then every demo is room and associated equipment dependent. I have heard the 1400 Arrays compared at JBL in their double blind listening room against the B&W 800 Diamonds and a pair of Martin Logans... they sounded night and day better than the Martin Logans and held their own against the B&Ws bettering them at times and matching them at others.


Widget

[Dave_72]

I hate their aesthetic, but I have heard very good sound from some of the Wilsons... and I have been disappointed by others. I think every brand has a few products that stand out among their ranks and others that don't fare quite as well.

How do the 1400 Arrays compare? It is virtually impossible to be truly objective and then every demo is room and associated equipment dependent. I have heard the 1400 Arrays compared at JBL in their double blind listening room against the B&W 800 Diamonds and a pair of Martin Logans... they sounded night and day better than the Martin Logans and held their own against the B&Ws bettering them at times and matching them at others.


Widget

The best I've heard the Wilsons were the Sasha model in the Dan D'Agostino room @ CES. Driven by the D'Agostino amps of course...even so, it didn't light my fire as much as the Arrays did driven by Levinson amps in the Harman HP room. And that system cost a lot less than the D'Agostino/Wilson one!

Wow the Arrays did that good against the 800 Di's? That's something else!

[4313B]

Wow the Arrays did that good against the 800 Di's? That's something else!Not bad for a fifty year old low frequency transducer design eh?

[Mr. Widget]

Wow the Arrays did that good against the 800 Di's? That's something else!Yes, and it isn't just my opinion. Virtually everyone who has heard that demo has been surprised by the 1400 Arrays. It really shows you how biased we are when we look at this stuff or know it's pedigree. If I hadn't seen the Martin Logans, I would have thought they were shouty old Klipsch speakers.

Of course it is no coincidence that JBL regularly demo's these three speakers to visitors at their facility. They are showing how well they stack up against a "known quantity" that costs twice as much and another audiophile favorite at the same price point that actually sounds bad in comparison.


Widget

[Dave_72]

Yes, and it isn't just my opinion. Virtually everyone who has heard that demo has been surprised by the 1400 Arrays. It really shows you how biased we are when we look at this stuff or know it's pedigree. If I hadn't seen the Martin Logans, I would have thought they were shouty old Klipsch speakers.

Of course it is no coincidence that JBL regularly demo's these three speakers to visitors at their facility. They are showing how well they stack up against a "known quantity" that costs twice as much and another audiophile favorite at the same price point that actually sounds bad in comparison.


Widget

Sounds good!

[Dave_72]

Not bad for a fifty year old low frequency transducer design eh?

No, not bad at all.

[DavidF]

The best I've heard the Wilsons were the Sasha model in the Dan D'Agostino room @ CES. Driven by the D'Agostino amps of course...even so, it didn't light my fire as much as the Arrays did driven by Levinson amps in the Harman HP room. And that system cost a lot less than the D'Agostino/Wilson one!

Wow the Arrays did that good against the 800 Di's? That's something else!

Dan D'Agostino was at this CA show last year. I recall walking down the hall with a quick glance into a room. In an instant all I saw was a view of a guy in a full suit and tie who was looking back at me. I recognized that it was Dan from pictures I had seen previously. He had to be the only one at the show in a business suit. Anyway, I felt I had to turn around and go in to check things out even knowing I couldn't even hope to deliver one of of his current amps much less buy one. Dan was quite a gentleman and more than willing to talk with a few of us on a very accessible level. Couldn't really opine on any of the equipment in the room but the few moments chatting with the man behind the products was a treat.

[Dave_72]

Dan D'Agostino was at this CA show last year. I recall walking down the hall with a quick glance into a room. In an instant all I saw was a view of a guy in a full suit and tie who was looking back at me. I recognized that it was Dan from pictures I had seen previously. He had to be the only one at the show in a business suit. Anyway, I felt I had to turn around and go in to check things out even knowing I couldn't even hope to deliver one of of his current amps much less buy one. Dan was quite a gentleman and more than willing to talk with a few of us on a very accessible level. Couldn't really opine on any of the equipment in the room but the few moments chatting with the man behind the products was a treat.

Yeah, he's a pretty cool guy. I liked talkin' too him too.