JBL or TAD drivers for WA BBSM - 15VNF

[Doomsmith]

Hi All!
Now I'm in process of ordering Westlake Audio BBSM -15 VNF speakers. And I have a dilemma - make an order with JBL or TAD woofers.
Price doesn't matter. I like heavy and extremal music styles such as Doom, stoner, Death doom, black. Also jazz, voices, an classics sometimes.
I like good bass and good sound pressure.
But sometimes I like gentle sounding like Morphine or Katie Melua, for example.

I hope the community helps me :)

[pos]

What TAD and JBL drivers are they putting in these?
I suppose the 10" will stay JBL in any case (2122H or 2123H)

The JBL setup will probably consist of 2235H, 2122H or 2123H, 2426H, whereas the TAD setup will probably end up being TL1603 or TL1601, 2122H or 2123H, TD2001 or TD2002

I have not heard all of these drivers, and certainly not compared them in the situation at hand, but I think the general opinion could be summed up as follow:
The TD2001 is arguably a better driver than the 2426H, reaching higher is frequency. The TD2002 should be even better.
Regarding the 15", and when restricted to the 20Hz-350Hz range the 2235H will probably sound better than the TL1603, but TL1603 will be able to reach higher SPL levels for PA or loud monitoring. In home use the 2235H is probably a better bet (even if LOUD is a goal). The TL1601B would probably be better still.

[Doomsmith]

What TAD and JBL drivers are they putting in these?
I suppose the 10" will stay JBL in any case (2122H or 2123H)

The JBL setup will probably consist of 2235H, 2122H or 2123H, 2426H, whereas the TAD setup will probably end up being TL1603 or TL1601, 2122H or 2123H, TD2001 or TD2002

I have not heard all of these drivers, and certainly not compared them in the situation at hand, but I think the general opinion could be summed up as follow:
The TD2001 is arguably a better driver than the 2426H, reaching higher is frequency. The TD2002 should be even better.
Regarding the 15", and when restricted to the 20Hz-350Hz range the 2235H will probably sound better than the TL1603, but TL1603 will be able to reach higher SPL levels for PA or loud monitoring. In home use the 2235H is probably a better bet (even if LOUD is a goal). The TL1601B would probably be better still.


Thank you for your opinion!
First of all I think about the bass. When you say "the 2235H will probably sound better than the TL1603", what do you mean?

I've heard that TAD woofers have a hard suspension so the bass is more accurate and realistic.
And JBL woofers have a soft suspension and have a bass full of "meat" "punch" and another gifts for rock lovers.
What could you say?

[pos]

You would need to compare the two in the same situation to be sure... (I did not)
What does Westlake recommend?
Are you sure they use TL1603 and not TL1601?

For what it's worth, I have compared a JBL 2245H and a TL1801H (18" counterparts of the drivers considered here) in the 20-300Hz range, and after careful equalization to get the exact same response I was hard pressed to tell the difference (in a room...).
When measured the 2245H had a bit less distortion under 100Hz, and a bit more above 100Hz...

One other thing to consider is that the 2235H will need its foam surround to be replaced every 15 or 20years whereas the cloth surround of the TAD driver will virtually last forever.

[Doomsmith]

You would need to compare the two in the same situation to be sure... (I did not)

It's impossible. I didn't ever find any BBSM-15VNF to hear to. Westlake dealer told me that manufacturer has no one pair in the world in listening or demonstration rooms to listen to. And they said that 50% of WA speakers have bought without listening.


What does Westlake recommend?

To make decision by myself :)


Are you sure they use TL1603 and not TL1601?

I don't know, what exact type of drivers they use.


For what it's worth, I have compared a JBL 2245H and a TL1801H (18" counterparts of the drivers considered here) in the 20-300Hz range, and after careful equalization to get the exact same response I was hard pressed to tell the difference (in a room...).
When measured the 2245H had a bit less distortion under 100Hz, and a bit more above 100Hz...

OK, thank you/


One other thing to consider is that the 2235H will need its foam surround to be replaced every 15 or 20years whereas the cloth surround of the TAD driver will virtually last forever.

Well, it's important, thanks!

[Fort Knox]

If The -15 has a horn in it..... I would think twice about mixing cones/horns

[louped garouv]

If The -15 has a horn in it..... I would think twice about mixing cones/horns

what is the main concern? impulse response/timing?

[Mr. Widget]

Hi All!
Now I'm in process of ordering Westlake Audio BBSM -15 VNF speakers.How did you come to the conclusion that the Westlake was the speaker you are interested in... what design parameters made you pick these speakers that you have never heard over the dozens and dozens of other choices at this elevated price point?


Widget

[Doomsmith]

How did you come to the conclusion that the Westlake was the speaker you are interested in... what design parameters made you pick these speakers that you have never heard over the dozens and dozens of other choices at this elevated price point?
Widget

Well, it's simple :)

I need a loudspeakers for 60 sq meters listening room.
I need a good bass for my favourite music styles.

15' woofers is the only choice.

What do we have with theese parameters?

Old style JBL monitors (43XX) and WA loudspeakers.

People told that WA sound slightly better.

In any case, it's a good investment.

[Mr. Widget]

Well, it's simple :)
That all sounds reasonable... can't speak to the investment, here in the US, no new loudspeaker is a "good" investment, but perhaps in Russia things are different.

I would agree that you need big speakers if you are going to fill a large space with stereo... well actually a lot of distributed smaller speakers will likely fill a large space with better sound, but if you can control the reflections and you are setting up a system with stereo reproduction in mind and will be predominantly sitting in the sweet spot, then yes, a single pair of large speakers is the best solution.

I would also agree that in general the better Westlakes do sound a little better than your stock 43XX... in general. That said, the new JBLs completely kick butt over the older 43XX or Westlakes and are priced similarly to the Westlakes... actually typically less expensively.

I would suggest looking for a JBL dealer and seeing if you could audition a pair of K2-S9900s augmented by a pair of Array 1500 Subs. With these subs the bass will be significantly better, easier to integrate into your room, and far deeper than anything Westlake offers. Also the 4" diaphragmed 476Mg driver will not get harsh like the 1.75" diaphragmed Westlake.

If you really want to pull out all of the stops, get a pair of JBL Everest IIs... pick the version you can best afford and add one or two 18" Revel Rhythm subs... you would be hard pressed to find anything on the planet with the dynamic range and finesse.

Don't be afraid to add high quality subs to a pair of 15" woofered speakers. Dedicated subs are much easier to tune to a room and when set up properly will be sonically invisible.


Widget

[Doomsmith]

That all sounds reasonable...

Thank you for your post!
What's about subwoofers - I dont like it. The reason is no reason :) Just don't want it.
JBL Everest may be the good choice, but it's too expensive and I like "tower" cabinets more.
So, what do you say about JBL and TAD woofers difference?

[Mr. Widget]

Thank you for your post!
What's about subwoofers - I dont like it. The reason is no reason :) Just don't want it.
JBL Everest may be the good choice, but it's too expensive and I like "tower" cabinets more.
So, what do you say about JBL and TAD woofers difference?I dont think you are asking the right question. I would keep looking... for that much money you can do better.


Widget

[pos]

Maybe some Reyaudio Kinoshita RM6 or RM7? Or used JBL S9500 ?...
You can probably get both models from Kenricksound in Japan

[Doomsmith]

Maybe some Reyaudio Kinoshita RM6 or RM7? Or used JBL S9500 ?...
You can probably get both models from Kenricksound in Japan

Thank you for your advice!

AFAIK, Kinoshta needs to replace some components at least once a year.

I've concentrated my wish on BBSM 15VNF, but I have to decide - what type of woofers to order - JBL or TAD

[Lee in Montreal]

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't read which model of JBL woofer was one of the choices. BTW where's the tweeter?
http://hiend.plegion.ru/images/content/20110908_105510_201104_hifi%20ivan_1_l.jpg

This one seems to have a nice ribbon tweeter
http://audio-heritage.jp/WESTLAKEAUDIO/speaker/bbsm-15.jpg

Also, because you will be giving away a thick stack of cash, I don't understand why your dealer cannot arrange a test, maybe not in his showroom, but at least with another client's pair. Speaker systems are very subjective. What you might hate, might be somebody else's Nirvana...

As was mentionned, because you like extra bass pressure, you should get extra bass sources in the form of big subwoofers. Just, perhaps, for the times you have that crave for extra punch, which might sound very unnatural on some style of music. You don't want 1960s vocal jazz music with that big thumping, while you'd want it on newer style of music. Having subs allows you to tailor the sound.

[Doomsmith]

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't read which model of JBL woofer was one of the choices.

Sorry, I can not understand this. My English is very weak.
Theese speakers may be manufactured with JBL or TAD woofers, as customer wants. JBL has a soft suspension and TAD has a hard one.


BTW where's the tweeter?

In the middle of the tower. It's a horn.

59342



Also, because you will be giving away a thick stack of cash,

Maybe, my stack is not enough thick :)
BBSM-15VNF is the lowest model with 15" woofers.



I don't understand why your dealer cannot arrange a test, maybe not in his showroom, but at least with another client's pair.

There are no one pair of theese speakers in showrooms in Russia and Europe. And Westlake Audio speakers owners are not so open to talk to strangers :)


Speaker systems are very subjective. What you might hate, might be somebody else's Nirvana...

You are absolutely right! For me, this purchase is some kind of Russian Roulette.


As was mentionned, because you like extra bass pressure, you should get extra bass sources in the form of big subwoofers.

I don't like subwoofers.


Just, perhaps, for the times you have that crave for extra punch, which might sound very unnatural on some style of music. You don't want 1960s vocal jazz music with that big thumping, while you'd want it on newer style of music. Having subs allows you to tailor the sound.

It's a good idea to buy another setup for 60s jazz :)
With full range driver and tube amp.

[pos]

AFAIK, Kinoshta needs to replace some components at least once a year.Not sure what you mean? Maybe in studio use situation, with very loud SPL, but at home I don't think the components will suffer a lot.
Those monitor typically use a pair or TAD 15" (usually 1601B) and a 4" diaphragmed TAD compression river (TD4001).

Another compagny you could consider if you like tower speaker with 15" woofer is JMF Audio:
http://www.jmf-audio.com/speakerHPM1000_en.htm

By the way I am sure those BBSM15 sound find! The 15"+10"+1" combo is a proven one. For one thing, even if you can hesitate between TAD and JBL woofers, you should really stick with TAD for the compression driver.

[Doomsmith]

It seems, that there are no BBSM 15VNF owners in the world, having Internet connection. :)

[Lee in Montreal]

TAD 1602?
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/5166/picture133r.jpg

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?20088-Explain-Tad-woofers-Help&p=201428&viewfull=1#post201428

[Doomsmith]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?20088-Explain-Tad-woofers-Help&p=201428&viewfull=1#post201428

Thanx, it's very useful!

[Doomsmith]

TAD 1602?
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/5166/picture133r.jpg


It seems to be a soft suspension in this driver. Most of TAD have hard (accordian)

[Lee in Montreal]

Looking at specs, one would be enclined to pick the 1602 because it has a lower Fs of close to 20Hz. Technically, it is "better", but the overall sound will not be the same as a 1601/03 with Fs30hz which might sound more punchy and lively. It definierly depends on the sound you are after. Which is why I suggested an audition before purchasing.

A clear exemple of "similar" 15" JBL woofer is testing a 2235, 2225 and 2226. They all have their field of competence. The 2235 goes lower, but it doesn't have the punch and dynamic the two other drivers have, which also sound different one another. ;)

[Fort Knox]

It seems, that there are no BBSM 15VNF owners in the world, having Internet connection. :)

That should tell you something:)

[Doomsmith]

That should tell you something:)

What? :)

[Fort Knox]

What? :)
I need 3 tours in Omsk, and the college... Disco there,
Among other things....had an EV sound system w/
several "Arrays" and a Sub ..(that I never could locate).....
Best system I ever heard in my Life..'till that pt. anyway:)
Of course the memories help.......

[hjames]

Looking at specs, one would be enclined to pick the 1602 because it has a lower Fs of close to 20Hz. Technically, it is "better", but the overall sound will not be the same as a 1601/03 with Fs30hz which might sound more punchy and lively. It definierly depends on the sound you are after. Which is why I suggested an audition before purchasing.

A clear exemple of "similar" 15" JBL woofer is testing a 2235, 2225 and 2226. They all have their field of competence. The 2235 goes lower, but it doesn't have the punch and dynamic the two other drivers have, which also sound different one another. ;)

Have you tried a 2234 ... ?

[Lee in Montreal]

Have you tried a 2234 ... ?

No I haven't. But the point of my post is that different woofers within the same brand will have different sounds. And one must seat in front of a pair of speakers to judge because numbers don't tell everything.

Lee

[macaroonie]

Привет Doomsmith. It is good to have a Russian member here at last , unless I have missed someone of course.

To make a detour , have you had a look at the JBL models that Kenrick are renovating in Japan.
As far as I know they also have some TAD and WA models.

Here is a link for you

http://jbl43.com/?mode=f3. They do fantastic work as you can see.

Mac

[Maron Horonzakz]

Nyet !!!!

[westlake40]

Hi, just wondering if there's any price difference between JBL or TAD 15" drivers for BBSM15 from WA?? :confused:
And has anyone compared BBSM15vnf with HR7 (double 12" 128H-1) for normal home environment (about40 sq.):banghead:

[Lee in Montreal]

Hi, just wondering if there's any price difference between JBL or TAD 15" drivers... You bet! :eek:

[westlake40]

You bet! :eek:For a 50K range monitor, maybe the price difference of drivers (JBL/TAD) should not be the reason for extra money.

[Doomsmith]

Привет Doomsmith. It is good to have a Russian member here at last , unless I have missed someone of course.

To make a detour , have you had a look at the JBL models that Kenrick are renovating in Japan.
As far as I know they also have some TAD and WA models.

Here is a link for you

http://jbl43.com/?mode=f3. They do fantastic work as you can see.

Mac

И вам привет! :)

Well, I know about Kenrick company. They have a good reputation, AFAIK.
But I have not ever heard about WA replicas or restored models.

[Lee in Montreal]

For a 50K range monitor, maybe the price difference of drivers (JBL/TAD) should not be the reason for extra money.
That, you need to debate it with the maufacturer. :p

2235 drivers are NLA. Therefore, I suspect that "new" ones are refurbished baskets and new recone kits. In the worst case scenario, cost is around $350/$400. I suspect you can at least double, or even triple that for any of the 160X TAD drivers (if you can find them). But hey, the difference of price in woofers is dimes an nickels on a $50k system which is more than just woofers.

[Doomsmith]

Hi, just wondering if there's any price difference between JBL or TAD 15" drivers for BBSM15 from WA?? :confused:


Yes, there is.
About $6K

[Lee in Montreal]

Yes, there is.
About $6K

So. Westlake is being fair. ;)

[westlake40]

Yes, there is.About $6KHi Doomsmith, have you considered about the TM3vnf or HR7 in your case which seems more popular in far east asia?

[Doomsmith]

Hi Doomsmith, have you considered about the TM3vnf or HR7 in your case which seems more popular in far east asia?

In my town most populal device for listening music is IPhone :) and car audio is the second.
What's about TM3 and HR7 - it's too expensive for me.
I would try bi-amping on TM3 or HR1, but it's runs me out of budget.

[Doomsmith]

Well, TAD is my choice!

[Lee in Montreal]

Well, TAD is my choice! Which model?

[Doomsmith]

Which model?

I don't know.

Westlake Audio knows :)

[jbl]

Any update?

[Doomsmith]

Any update?
TAD

[jbl]

TAD

And?

[CPAP]

Not a big step away from the main theme...

I would be grateful if you, colleagues will answer the question - WA used TAD low frequency 15" drivers or not?
The point is that my friend got an offer to buy from Russia HR-1VF with TAD LF drivers.
As far as I know, WA used JBL drivers.

Many thank's

[Doomsmith]

Not a big step away from the main theme...
WA used TAD low frequency 15" drivers or not?


Yes!

[CPAP]

Yes!

I would be grateful for the presented evidence.

[Doomsmith]

I would be grateful for the presented evidence.

If you don't beleive me, you may ask WA directly :)

They call loudspeakers with TAD woofers "Performance woofer version".

[CPAP]

If you don't beleive me, you may ask WA directly :)
They call loudspeakers with TAD woofers "Performance woofer version".

Concerning TAD drivers in WA loudspeakers would not be news of other friends?
About "Performance woofer version" not me or the Internet nothing is known :(

[Doomsmith]

Concerning TAD drivers in WA loudspeakers would not be news of other friends?
About "Performance woofer version" not me or the Internet nothing is known :(

Ask the manufacturer :)

[Doomsmith]

After 2 years, now I have my opinion. TADs are great!!!! Sounds of the drums so realistic! JBL woofers have more "fat" in sound.

[4313B]

Neato!

do svidaniya :wave: