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View Full Version : Digital guys: Is this a good plan for consolidating my CD collection???



Tweak48
03-26-2013, 02:36 PM
I'm upwards of 375 CDs now, and it's time to clear up the clutter. I'm mostly a 2 channel high end audio (JBL/Tannoy :)) guy, so sound quality is important. I know just enough about digital audio and computers to be dangerous, so please tell me if this is a good plan or if I am making a mistake somewhere:

1. Buy a new Acer netbook (360 GB, Windows 7 Starter) and use as an audio server only. Place it with the hi-fi gear.

2. Send the CDs and Acer to "ripping" vendor for loading CDs into Apple Lossless format

3. Use iTunes to access and play music

4. Buy outboard DAC (with 24-bit/96kHz resolution and asynchronous USB data transfer capability)

From research, it looks like Win 7 starter supports iTunes. Apparently Lossless uses MPEG 4 format, but are there any compatibility issues with specific DACs? I don't know.

Problem is, I'm not smart enough to know for sure that all this stuff work together. Does this look like a good plan? Comments are greatly appreciated. Thanks!!

SEAWOLF97
03-26-2013, 03:39 PM
iTunes does an OK job ripping, if you set the rate up high. Win 7 does fine too.

I bought a cool little "Mini Muse" DAC from eBay that accepts lots of i/p's and sounds very nice (nee.Hifi) $50 including delivery ...Phil/BMW tried one too and liked it. It was recommended to me by another forum member who was amazed by it. And its higher rez that you asked about.

Mine is on the usb port of my windows 7 Sony laptop ...runs the rca's off to the preamp and the 250Ti's ...sounds pretty good.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/110906903565?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

"this mini DAC unit can handle 24bit/192Khz audio via coaxial/optical inputs, It is in compact size,The dimension is only 66mm*60mm,Very suitable for destop DAC unit for laptop or PC.It has optical/coaxial/USB 3 ways input, You could use it with all devices with digital audio outuput. Additionally it can be used a USB to coaxial converter when using USB input, The coaxial connector will output SPDIF signal when using USB port."

Tweak48
03-26-2013, 05:53 PM
Thanks for the tip.

JeffW
03-26-2013, 06:57 PM
I don't know about that particular laptop, but I think a lot of laptops these days have SSD (solid state drives) in them. I have a solid state drive in my desktop PC as the system drive, and when I bought it one of the caveats mentioned was the relatively short lifespan SSD drives have. It's just their nature, a set number of read/write cycles is built into their lifespan. I don't know, it might last 5 years, but eventually it'll bite it. Regular spinning disk drives are also prone to random failure, but generally have a longer expected lifetime. Plus you can store stuff on them, unplug it, put it a drawer (away from magnetic fields) and the data will remain, SSDs need power applied at least periodically or they will lose data.

I think a laptop with an external HDD storage would be a better solution, if a laptop is the preferred device. Just my opinion, I'm certainly no expert on music storage.

Also, a CD is just 16bit/44Khz. You can rip it to a hard drive, but there'll never be more than 16 bit information available (if I even understand that correctly). There is "upsampling", playing the 16/44 content back at the 24/192 (for example), but I'm not sure it sounds all that much, if any, better than just 16/44. That said, I'd get the best performing DAC that catches your eye, I wouldn't let the CD 16/44 rate set what the DAC capabilities are, and async USB seems to be what folks like. Sounds like you are on the right track there.

As for ripping, another can of worms. I'll tread lightly because again, I'm no expert. I wouldn't send them off to be ripped. It's not all that bad, but... Some ripping programs rip to different formats, like FLAC, WMA, WAV, AAC, I don't think you'd want MPG unless you were pressed for space (375 CDs on 360GB won't be). You can rip the things easily, but if your program makes you enter the CD Title and individually name each song, you'll hate life. You can end up with a whole bunch of Track #1, Track #2, etc. There are programs that can not only search for cover art, titles, track listing, but automatically assign them to the music file as as you rip. I've ripped CDs to my PC using Windows Media Center as .WMA files and the album art/track listing popped right up, and I have a media server gizmo that rips to FLAC and it's really good about getting the art/tracks in there, too.

Again, I'm sure not an expert. This is just more stuff to think of.

hjames
03-27-2013, 05:54 AM
Don't know if you want to go this route, but I'll offer what my system has grown into.
Possibility is to get a mac mini and an external drive to keep your iTunes collection on.
Use iTunes on the MAC (works better than iTunes on the Win platform) and set the default to rip your CDs into Apple LOSSLESS format
(ALAC - its like FLAC).
Its the highest fidelity bit rate available - better than MP3s or anything like that.
Do it yourself so you know its done right, with a good drive it really doesn't take THAT long.
Start with A and work through to Z - 400 CDs are nothing, really.

If you are serious about it, get a second external drive and use Apple's built in Timemachine Utility
to do automated hourly backups of your system and external iTunes drive. You don't want to have to rip it again later if/when a drive fails,
and drives WILL FAIL someday, that is a known fact.

If your music system is in the same room, get a USB DAC (maybe the Schiit bifrost? they seem very popular)
so you can output in highest fidelity mode.

If you have an iPhone or an iPad you can use them to run iTunes remotely with a free App -
very neat to have full control of your tunes from the sofa!

I basically have this same system - tho I've gone to a bigger Mac (which also does other things) since my mac mini days,
and the computer is up in my office now, so I'm using the mac Wifi gear (airport Express) to send my music to multiple room in the house, outputting the (music) datastream on TOSLINK optical ports into a DAC in that room, and then into that system.

I can play my music locally in my office while I'm doing work or surfing the web, play it downstairs in the TV room on a surround system, or play it on the dedicated 2 channel tube system with the JBLs in the front room.

I started with a few hundred discs and now have about 40,000 tracks on the system.

Greg_M
03-27-2013, 06:53 AM
Try using FLAC instead of MP3
I use Songbird, it's free and has FLAC built in
The biggest single improvement was getting a 24/96 Digital Sound Card from M-Audio. It was night and day compared to the on board sound output stuff

For a play list host I use FUBAR it plays FLAC as well and is free too

JuniorJBL
03-27-2013, 07:02 AM
I do as Heather but on the windows side.
I use Jriver Media Center and rip it all via the program. I really dislike DRM so I buy as little Downloads as possible unless they are above 16/44 then it seems to be worth it to me, but I still have ALL my CD's just because that IS my backup.
JMC works with iphone/pad and Android devices to take it with you as well as have it on your server/computer and you can also get a Sonos or similar network player and it will have a remote or an app for your portable device to control it.

There are LOTS of ways to skin this cat. I personaly would not use Apple software unless I had an Apple device and an account at the Apple Store. This is NOT a slam aginst Apple, they make fine equipment, it is just my opinion.

hjames
03-27-2013, 08:07 AM
There are LOTS of ways to skin this cat. I personaly would not use Apple software unless I had an Apple device and an account at the Apple Store. This is NOT a slam aginst Apple, they make fine equipment, it is just my opinion.

Right - I don't buy digital tracks from Apple or Amazon - I prefer having a CD as long-term backup too -
but my wife has been known to impulse-buy a track here and there - her tastes are different than mine and
she likes pop/schlock more than I do! But the hardware does work very well, and its all very user friendly -
so its painless for her to use.

SEAWOLF97
03-27-2013, 10:19 AM
Also, a CD is just 16bit/44Khz. You can rip it to a hard drive, but there'll never be more than 16 bit information available (if I even understand that correctly). There is "upsampling", playing the 16/44 content back at the 24/192 (for example), but I'm not sure it sounds all that much, if any, better than just 16/44. That said, I'd get the best performing DAC that catches your eye.

I'm not an expert either , but recently replaced a nice Sony ES CD deck with a cheap Panny DVD player that notes on the front "24bit/192khz audio DAC" ....sure did SEEM to be an improvement.

Do not think you need an external drive. 360GB is a lot of space, esp if you are only storing audio ....heck, my little iPod with 8 GB will run 2 days+ without repeating , if the battery would last that long. Even med rez full albums put to good quality MP3's only take 50-60 MB of storage.

Ripping is so easy ,just setup software , put disk IN , rip. Why pay someone else to do that ?

Your profile says "PacNW" ...if you are ever in Portland, stop by and I'll demo how the laptop and mini dac sound. ;)

JeffW
03-27-2013, 04:27 PM
I'm not an expert either , but recently replaced a nice Sony ES CD deck with a cheap Panny DVD player that notes on the front "24bit/192khz audio DAC" ....sure did SEEM to be an improvement.

A better DAC is a better DAC, no doubt. I can switch through different bitrates on my outboard DAC, playing 16/44 CD ripped stuff and can't tell any difference, but I can tell a difference between the analog out of the DAC in the CD player vs digital out of the CD player to the outboard DAC.


Do not think you need an external drive. 360GB is a lot of space, esp if you are only storing audio Yeah, I mentioned that was plenty of space, I'm more concerned of the longevity of the SSD in the laptop/having all your eggs (system/storage) in one basket should something happen with the laptop.

But there are plenty of ways to skin a cat.

hjames
03-27-2013, 06:18 PM
A better DAC is a better DAC, no doubt. I can switch through different bitrates on my outboard DAC, playing 16/44 CD ripped stuff and can't tell any difference, but I can tell a difference between the analog out of the DAC in the CD player vs digital out of the CD player to the outboard DAC.

Yeah, I mentioned that was plenty of space, I'm more concerned of the longevity of the SSD in the laptop/having all your eggs (system/storage) in one basket should something happen with the laptop.

But there are plenty of ways to skin a cat.

Tweak48 - do you KNOW that it has a SSD? They're still a pretty expensive option on most laptops. Whether its HDD or SDD, you still need a secondary EXTERNAL drive for regular system backups. Pretending you don't need a digital backup is no serious solution.

Once you have ripped all your CDs ONCE, you'll know you don't want to do that again.
Without a digital backup, if the drive fails, you get to hand rip them all over again.

Oh - A good thing to know is your overall budget for setting this up - I went in low budget and its grown and improved over time - and I already had a mac mini at the time.

Recommendations for very high end gear may not be appropriate if you are doing this on a budget.

rusty jefferson
03-27-2013, 09:54 PM
Getting a "High End" computer based audio system to sound as good as a "High End" stand alone CD player or CD player/DAC combo, is tricky, as well as expensive. If you're a PC guy, consider going with one of these dedicated servers. There are instructions on the site for assembling the exact parts you need to build one of them yourself, or you can purchase one ready to go. 4 models to choose from, v3 from simple to pretty sophisticated. http://www.computeraudiophile.com/section/c-p-s-489/ JRiver, the recommended interface for these servers and mentioned by JuniorJBL is probably the best sounding program for Windows available. Certainly better than ITunes, Media Monkey, etc.

If you read the forums at the Computer Audiophile site, you'll see most of the recommended USB DACs are very expensive, and often don't sound as good as DACs with S/PDIF (coax) inputs and used with a USB/S/PDIF converter. Another layer, another box (at least) and more wires, however. A battery power supply for the server, S/PDIF converter, and possibly the DAC can improve the sound quality to approaching the "High End" CD player, but obviously increases cost and complexity.

The system you laid out, and the variations others have shared are pretty simple, probably sound pretty good, and won't break the bank, but won't give the performance in a "High End" system you may (or may not) need/want. It seems like it should be simple. "They're just 1s and 0s" everyone says, but everything in the chain has an effect (usually for the worse) on the sound quality getting to your audio system.

Mr. Widget
03-28-2013, 07:22 AM
Getting a "High End" computer based audio system to sound as good as a "High End" stand alone CD player or CD player/DAC combo, is tricky, as well as expensive. If you're a PC guy, consider going with one of these dedicated servers. There are instructions on the site for assembling the exact parts you need to build one of them yourself, or you can purchase one ready to go. 4 models to choose from, v3 from simple to pretty sophisticated. http://www.computeraudiophile.com/section/c-p-s-489/ JRiver, the recommended interface for these servers and mentioned by JuniorJBL is probably the best sounding program for Windows available. Certainly better than ITunes, Media Monkey, etc.

If you read the forums at the Computer Audiophile site, you'll see most of the recommended USB DACs are very expensive, and often don't sound as good as DACs with S/PDIF (coax) inputs and used with a USB/S/PDIF converter. Another layer, another box (at least) and more wires, however. A battery power supply for the server, S/PDIF converter, and possibly the DAC can improve the sound quality to approaching the "High End" CD player, but obviously increases cost and complexity.

The system you laid out, and the variations others have shared are pretty simple, probably sound pretty good, and won't break the bank, but won't give the performance in a "High End" system you may (or may not) need/want. It seems like it should be simple. "They're just 1s and 0s" everyone says, but everything in the chain has an effect (usually for the worse) on the sound quality getting to your audio system. :yes:

I know a few people who have gone the Mac Mini route with Amarra or Pure Music... these seem to be the other successful "high end" solutions.

I've got a much less expensive though not terribly sexy solution. No iPad control, no album art etc... but an iPod with lossless files, a Wadia 170i dock, and a Bryston DAC sounds quite high end... not the end all, but it only cost a few hundred bucks, plus DAC, and it is definitely better than every option I've tried that isn't a significantly greater investment.


Widget

JuniorJBL
03-28-2013, 07:52 AM
I run a layer 3 gigabit network in my home so lag via the network is nil. I am curently testing a Sonos connect streaming my data from a 30TB DAS array that I also store full BD roms as well. It works pretty good for a network DAC and there is not any lag with full bit rate movies and music at the same time.

I have 2 computers 1 in the theater and 1 on the main TV with Jriver on them and the Sonos on the 2 channel setup. Seems to be working very good and the Android control is very cool!!;)

SEAWOLF97
03-28-2013, 08:15 AM
expanding on HJ's comment ..

Have run iTunes on W2000 , XP and W7. It's OK , but kinda quirky . if I didn't have Apple iPods to support , would NOT even have it installed. Not worth the trouble, just for ripping & playback.

ON WINDOWS MACHINES: WMP is fast, works well , sounds good and does all its functions without the quirkiness. and it's free, part of the W7 build. WAV files are the lossless equivalent of FLAC and ALAC . Even has cover art.

On either , you can build playlists and I find remote control superfluous, unless listening in a different room.

an external 1TB USB drive for backups is a good idea ...pretty cheap anymore.

Tweak48
03-28-2013, 09:13 AM
Wow! Thanks to all of you for the thoughtful responses.

I probably misrepresented my plan when I used the term "server" in my original post. I don't intend to network music around the house, merely to use a cheap little laptop/netbook with a good DAC as a consolidated music player. It would be hard wired to my existing 2 channel systems (living room and family room) of the main floor of my house. The other thing I failed to mention is that I selected a laptop/netbook so I could drag the music along with me when I go to our family cabin, which also has a pretty decent 2 channel system. So a desktop/mini-Mac solution would not work in that instance.


I don't know about that particular laptop, but I think a lot of laptops these days have SSD (solid state drives) in them. I have a solid state drive in my desktop PC as the system drive, and when I bought it one of the caveats mentioned was the relatively short lifespan SSD drives have.

At the price point I'm looking at, all laptops seem to come with spinning hard drives. The outfit I'm going to use to rip them for me is http://www.musicshifter.com . Besides loading the music on the hard drive of your choice, they also burn DVDs for you as a backup. I think it's worth 69 cents a disc for them to do it all at once.


Greg_MTry using FLAC instead of MP3
I use Songbird, it's free and has FLAC built in
The biggest single improvement was getting a 24/96 Digital Sound Card from M-Audio. It was night and day compared to the on board sound output stuff

For a play list host I use FUBAR it plays FLAC as well and is free too




I was originally set on using Apple Lossless/iTunes, but I know that FLAC is popular with the high end audio community. BTW "FUBAR" is not an encouraging acronym for those of us with military backgrounds:D. The computer nurd at Frys yesterday I should use MPG with the lossless (0 compression) option because it is the most versatile in the long run. Now I'm not sure what to use.


rusty jefferson
Getting a "High End" computer based audio system to sound as good as a "High End" stand alone CD player or CD player/DAC combo, is tricky, as well as expensive.

The system you laid out, and the variations others have shared are pretty simple, probably sound pretty good, and won't break the bank, but won't give the performance in a "High End" system you may (or may not) need/want. It seems like it should be simple. "They're just 1s and 0s" everyone says, but everything in the chain has an effect (usually for the worse) on the sound quality getting to your audio system.




I can see I will have to adjust my expectations. On the other hand, based on my experience "pretty good" to members of this forum means "damn good" to most of the hi-fi community at large.



SEAWOLF97 Your profile says "PacNW" ...if you are ever in Portland, stop by and I'll demo how the laptop and mini dac sound


As a matter of fact I do get there from time to time as I live in the Puget Sound area. I found a great technician in Camas to rebuild my tube gear. I'll send you a PM the next time I'm down.

rusty jefferson
03-28-2013, 10:24 AM
Wow! Thanks to all of you for the thoughtful responses.

I probably misrepresented my plan when I used the term "server" in my original post. I don't intend to network music around the house, merely to use a cheap little laptop/netbook with a good DAC as a consolidated music player. It would be hard wired to my existing 2 channel systems (living room and family room) of the main floor of my house. The other thing I failed to mention is that I selected a laptop/netbook so I could drag the music along with me when I go to our family cabin, which also has a pretty decent 2 channel system. So a desktop/mini-Mac solution would not work in that instance.








Since portability is critical, the plan you laid out is fine. The only real issue is format. Either Apple Lossless or FLAC will give you the best combination of sound quality and reasonable file size. Both have "aftermarket" software available (i.e. Amarra, JRiver) that does improve the performance, and you can add at a later date. Also, if you upgrade servers, DACs later, at least your files are good.

Here's a link to a mobile player that can also be used as a stand alone USB DAC. Use at home, then throw into the computer bag when traveling. http://hifiman.com/Products/?pid=90

rusty jefferson
03-28-2013, 10:27 AM
I was originally set on using Apple Lossless/iTunes, but I know that FLAC is popular with the high end audio community. BTW "FUBAR" is not an encouraging acronym for those of us with military backgrounds:D. The computer nurd at Frys yesterday I should use MPG with the lossless (0 compression) option because it is the most versatile in the long run. Now I'm not sure what to use.





Oh, and it's FOOBAR, not FUBAR. :)
http://www.foobar2000.org/

SEAWOLF97
03-28-2013, 07:49 PM
I got into this laptop as a music bank thang kinda by accident.

Picked up a pair of L7's at abt a giveaway price ....didn't really need another pair of speakers. A local member who really wanted a pair was guided to me. he had no cash, but with a recent inheritance had purchased a monster (19 inch screen) TOTL (2 years ago) Sony laptop ...MSRP $3200 , and offered it in trade. I didn't really need another computer (having worked at Intel a while, and being in the field since '75, there are plenty of computers in the house)

One of the nice features of the Vaio (besides the 3 gun screen) is that it does OPTICAL audio output. Mini Toslink is in the headphone out jack (its a deeper plug).
For some time I ran the opt audio signal out to an old Adcom DAC . It was nice, mellow, but not highly detailed. Then for some reason windows 7 stopped sending to this port. It wasn't the laptop, I was still getting a link/lock signal. headphone output was not good. Was about to give up. had read that USB audio was only fair.

LHF Member Magnepan only has USB output and he gave the mini muse a try. I explained my situation to him and his argument was that I was wrong about USB sound. I've known and trusted Dan a long time, so gave the DAC a try. he had purchased his when they were $100 shipped, and could not believe that it was now half priced.

Well, it does sound fine on USB, no complaints at all. It has a 320GB HD and I really don't use it for anything more than a big music box. I do hook a TB external to it for backups, tho have been streaming Pandora through it more than using iTunes playback.





As a matter of fact I do get there from time to time as I live in the Puget Sound area. I found a great technician in Camas to rebuild my tube gear. I'll send you a PM the next time I'm down.

I spent a cold couple of months aboard the USS Constellation in dry dock at Bremerton, and my reserve time in a squadron at Oak Harbor (Whidbey Island)
If we ever get together, bring a CD that you know well. I'll rip it and show you what the result can be.

John W
03-28-2013, 08:04 PM
I have a Mac-Mini with several 1st gen Apple TVs (the ones with internal hard drives) in the shop and around the house. The Apple TVs sync up automatically with the main server and I can listen to the whole library remotely without the mini even on. They are hooked up to various DACs I bought as kits from China/ebay and soldered up myself like a grown up box of legos. The Apple TVs are small, quiet, have digital optical out and can be found on Craigslist for around $75. You do need a small hdmi compatible screen, though.

SEAWOLF97
03-30-2013, 03:25 PM
one last thing to add for Tweak

you may (maybe not) realize than when you rip a CD to digi file , it does not do so in REAL TIME. usually the rip is at 6x-10x ...so a 40 minute CD will take 4 minutes or less to get into the computer.

I have a TV that can be watched when ripping, so its just a matter of putting another in , every 5 minutes or so ...375 would take less time to enter than you think ....iTunes or WMP will grab album name and track names automatically if you are connected to the web. ;)