almost full range enclosure for guitar build advice E140/E110/2213

[parker_knoll]

Hi, first post here but I have read many many screenfulls from this great forum.

I've been playing around with different speaker combos for my guitar performances. I make a very full range sound, with pitched down bass frequencies, and even vocals running through the system, all running through a 120W Laney valve (tube) PA from 1969 which makes a sound I'm very happy with.

I started out with E120s which I love (I still have four) but the bass just isn't there, so I reinforced with an E140 in a non-ideal 1x15. It's okay for now, but there's major efficiency mismatches, so I'm running the E140 on 8Ω and E120s in a pair on 16Ω to compensate for the efficiency mismatch.

It's okay but I'd like to design a proper cab for shows, followed up with a second for bigger shows or when i want to work in stereo, which i sometimes do. So I'm thinking, can I combine the E140 with an E110 with a crossover and forget about having HF drivers as it's not really important for the sound I make? Looking at the specs, these two would seem to work okay in combo. What do others think?

I note the JBL full ranges for keyboard etc (Cabaret series for example) usually twin an 18" with a 10" or a 15" with an 8". Also, I'm having trouble locating an E110. Would a more available 2123 do the job? it matches the E140 in efficiency (101db to 100db). In building my cabinet i'll need to box around the 10" driver within the cabinet, is that right?

Many thanks,Toby

[more10]

Why not D130/K130/E130? Should get you some more bass extension compared to E120.

[parker_knoll]

hi, well, I did think about that but i've had some trouble finding a 130 for decent money or in decent condition. i also already have the E140, so would be good to find a good gainful employment for it.

[GoldcountryJim]

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

The full range pro speaker cabinet is very popular now and many 2-way and 3-way configurations are on the market. These are particularly popular as bass guitar cabinets. Slap bass style produces some extended frequencies, higher and lower, so this configuration works. With an E-140 you can build a good one. However, bass cabinets/speakers tend to resist break up and are generally considered too clean for many guitarists playing electric/distortion. If you are playing acoustic electric, it might work. What do you want it to do?

Using a small mid 6", 8" or 10 inch will bring some good highs for the guitar, but will not will not necessarily give you the crystal clear vocals of a horn. If its not enough, that's where the 3-way comes in. But that may be too much for the guitar. You are potentially looking at trade-offs here. If the speaker is behind you, feedback could become an issue. You could check out a 2-way bass cabinet at your local music shop to see if this is what you really want.


For building: the mid driver should be in a separate box within the speaker. The exact size depends on the crossover point between the low and mid driver, but they are generally less than 1 cubic foot. Have you used WINISD? The cubic volume for the mid box must be subtracted from the overall box volume to give the correct volume for the low driver. High pass and low pass filters would be a good idea to keep things clean.

[GoldcountryJim]

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

The full range pro speaker cabinet is very popular now and many 2-way and 3-way configurations are on the market. These are particularly popular as bass guitar cabinets. Slap bass style produces some extended frequencies, higher and lower, so this configuration works. With an E-140 you can build a good one. However, bass cabinets/speakers tend to resist break up and are generally considered too clean for many guitarists playing electric/distortion. If you are playing acoustic electric, it might work. What do you want it to do?

Using a small mid 6", 8" or 10 inch will bring some good highs for the guitar, but will not will not necessarily give you the crystal clear vocals of a horn. If its not enough, that's where the 3-way comes in. But that may be too much for the guitar. You are potentially looking at trade-offs here. If the speaker is behind you, feedback could become an issue. You could check out a 2-way bass cabinet at your local music shop to see if this is what you really want.


For building: the mid driver should be in a separate box within the speaker. The exact size depends on the crossover point between the low and mid driver, but they are generally less than 1 cubic foot. Have you used WINISD? The cubic volume for the mid box must be subtracted from the overall box volume to give the correct volume for the low driver. High pass and low pass filters would be a good idea to keep things clean.

[macaroonie]

Hi Parker Knoll , I have a New old Stock E110 in minty minty nick and a very old D130 (Alnico ) in almost minty nick. Send me a PM if you are interested and we can work something out.
I'm in Scotland :eek: so there may well be export duty.

Welcome to the forum .... Mac

PS Now that I think about it , you need this for a live sound application , I have a ready made box that will suit your needs perfectly. M

[more10]

I'm in Scotland :eek: so there may well be export duty.

So Scotland separated from UK! Very clever to introduce taxes on your own population for exporting to England :-)

[parker_knoll]

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

The full range pro speaker cabinet is very popular now and many 2-way and 3-way configurations are on the market. These are particularly popular as bass guitar cabinets. Slap bass style produces some extended frequencies, higher and lower, so this configuration works. With an E-140 you can build a good one. However, bass cabinets/speakers tend to resist break up and are generally considered too clean for many guitarists playing electric/distortion. If you are playing acoustic electric, it might work. What do you want it to do?


I'm not too worried about speaker distortion. The E120s i use at the moment don't distort, but sound better with amp overdrive than D120Fs in my opinion. It's a not a classic rock sound I'm after.




Using a small mid 6", 8" or 10 inch will bring some good highs for the guitar, but will not will not necessarily give you the crystal clear vocals of a horn. If its not enough, that's where the 3-way comes in. But that may be too much for the guitar. You are potentially looking at trade-offs here. If the speaker is behind you, feedback could become an issue. You could check out a 2-way bass cabinet at your local music shop to see if this is what you really want.


I just put vocals through when i absolutely have to - like last Thursday for example - so it's not core. usually i can run them through the PA. Also i can always EQ the guitar and voice. Everything runs through a small mixer.

The high mids on the E120 are already pretty good for guitar but the E110 should give a little more high extension.


Hi Parker Knoll , I have a New old Stock E110 in minty minty nick and a very old D130 (Alnico ) in almost minty nick. Send me a PM if you are interested and we can work something out.
I'm in Scotland :eek: so there may well be export duty.


Great, will send you a PM. no duties between Scotland and England... yet :)

[parker_knoll]

does anyone know where i can find specs as to how big the box should be for the E110 or 2123? imagining we are building a ported box for the E140 and then a separate box within it for the E110?

[Baron030]

Hi
I crunched the numbers in WinISD for a JBL E-110 and the closed box volume should be 0.437 cubic feet. (QTC = 0.702) Now, this is a net internal volume. So you will need to add a little volume for what is taken up by the driver itself, any bracing and/or glue cleats. Since you are not absolutely sure which driver you are going to use, you could go a littler larger, maybe even as large as a full cubic foot. But, since you are using this as a midrange driver the exact enclosure volume is not as critical as say a bass reflex enclosure for a woofer. What does come into play is the enclosure shape. One school of thought is to go with a tube shaped enclosure or you can go with a box made with non-parallel walls. In any case, the box should be filled with fiberglass to add dampening. Cardboard concrete forms can be used to make a tube shaped enclosure.

Baron030:)

[parker_knoll]

great, thank you.

I have one more question if anyone can help. I may have found a cab of roughly the right volume but not the same dimensions as JBL recommends. Specifically, it's shallower but squarer. Is this ok if i'm running the right amount of cubic feet or is my sound going to suffer in some way because of this?

thank you


Hi
I crunched the numbers in WinISD for a JBL E-110 and the closed box volume should be 0.437 cubic feet. (QTC = 0.702) Now, this is a net internal volume. So you will need to add a little volume for what is taken up by the driver itself, any bracing and/or glue cleats. Since you are not absolutely sure which driver you are going to use, you could go a littler larger, maybe even as large as a full cubic foot. But, since you are using this as a midrange driver the exact enclosure volume is not as critical as say a bass reflex enclosure for a woofer. What does come into play is the enclosure shape. One school of thought is to go with a tube shaped enclosure or you can go with a box made with non-parallel walls. In any case, the box should be filled with fiberglass to add dampening. Cardboard concrete forms can be used to make a tube shaped enclosure.

Baron030:)

[GoldcountryJim]

Many guitar cabinets are shallow, ranging from 12 to 16 inches deep. I suspect this is to maintain stage area for the musicians. Bass cabinets are deeper. As long as your box is not too shallow, it shouldn't be a problem. The biggest issue is making sure the back of your port (assuming front porting) doesn't get too close to the back or damping material.

When you say roughly the volume you need, its a little hard to tell if the size will matter. The port tuning is related to the volume. Changing the volume of the enclosure changes the port specs. Download WinISD and check the specs to be sure. If you are using drop-D tuning it could be important, although I doubt you'll get below 55 or 60 hz no matter what you are doing. 55 hz is about an open A on a 4 string bass.

[parker_knoll]

thanks all for the advice. I've revised my plans, I'm going to stick the E140 in its own box. I'll then look at a separate possibly open back cab for the E110. I live in a small flat in London, i simply don't have the space to build my own properly, and i don't have the money to pay someone else to do it for me. Moreover, at the moment I'm using the E140 in combo with E120s, so i need a cab that will make the most of it on its own.

As Mac owner i'd be really grateful if someone could crunch the E140 TS specs through WinISD for me. I'll then go out and see if i can find an off the shelf cab that roughly matches. I'll probably be crossing over at 500Hz, as this is really there just to boost the low end.

[Baron030]

Hi Toby
I ran a few JBL E-140 simulations using WinISD.
The picture gives you an idea of the effect that enclosure size has on the frequency response and the cut-off frequency.
And surprisingly, the smaller enclosure has more mid-bass output, But, at the expense of a higher cut-off frequency.

Once, you track down an enclosure for the E-140, just post the inside dimensions and thickness of the front panel.
The numbers will get crunched in WinISD and a few port tuning solutions will get posted here with variations on the number, size and length of ports. Including a "Ductless" port option, which is just a hole in the front panel.
58462
Baron030:)

[parker_knoll]

thank you.

I've found a 4625B for sale with the speaker inside. However, it is a bit more massive than i would like.

Can anyone here identify these slightly more modestly sized cabs?

58472

[Baron030]

Hi Toby

JBL describes the 4625B as having an internal volume of 4 1/2 cubic feet, which is best size for bass guitar. But, if you are going to use the E140 for guitar and not bass guitar than maybe you should be looking for something like a Fender Showman or Dual Showman cab. If I remember the dimensions right, the Fender Showman cabs should have an internal volume of only about 2 1/2 to 3 cubic feet per driver. Now, I am not sure if the Fender Showmans came with D130F or D140F speakers. But, it could be possible to adjust the port tuning if necessary.

Baron030:)

[parker_knoll]

Hi Toby

JBL describes the 4625B as having an internal volume of 4 1/2 cubic feet, which is best size for bass guitar. But, if you are going to use the E140 for guitar and not bass guitar than maybe you should be looking for something like a Fender Showman or Dual Showman cab. If I remember the dimensions right, the Fender Showman cabs should have an internal volume of only about 2 1/2 to 3 cubic feet per driver. Now, I am not sure if the Fender Showmans came with D130F or D140F speakers. But, it could be possible to adjust the port tuning if necessary.

Baron030:)

the outer dimensions of the 4625B are 767mm x 512mm x 478mm or 30" x 20" x 19" (roughly) which seems large. Is it not right we can work with about 2.5 cubic feet per driver if tuned and ported?

To clarify, i'm not using this cab for conventional guitar. i have signals pitched down one or two octaves and will be dealing with some very low frequencies which i would like to be heard, hence my desire to have a dedicated bass cab. However, i'm only talking about power up to 100W so the E140 should be able to handle what i throw at it. I'd like to tune it down to 40Hz or so.

The Showman and Dual Showman cabs are also pretty big to handle. I'd much rather go with a more compact more efficient modern design. Or have i got that wrong? I remembered them being absolutely huge, and hence now unpopular.

[Baron030]

To clarify, i'm not using this cab for conventional guitar. i have signals pitched down one or two octaves and will be dealing with some very low frequencies which i would like to be heard, hence my desire to have a dedicated bass cab. However, i'm only talking about power up to 100W so the E140 should be able to handle what i throw at it. I'd like to tune it down to 40Hz or so.

The E140 driver is not going to be very efficient at producing very low frequencies when it is mounted in a very small enclosure. That's why 4625B cab was built to be so large. Those guys at JBL know what they are doing.

If you really want a BIG deep bass sound from a small lightweight enclosure then you are going to need to re-think your project and use a different driver. Possibly something that has a lightweight neodymium magnet system and a suspension that is actually designed for a smaller enclosure. (JBL 2265HPL)

And there is one issue which has not been address yet, while the E140's voice coil can easily handle 100 watts of power. The suspension may not take that much power at very low frequencies. So, you could have the driver fail because of over excursion.

I Can't Change the Laws of Physics. Captain!
58474

[parker_knoll]

The E140 driver is not going to be very efficient at producing very low frequencies when it is mounted in a very small enclosure. That's why 4625B cab was built to be so large. Those guys at JBL know what they are doing.

If you really want a BIG deep bass sound from a small lightweight enclosure then you are going to need to re-think your project and use a different driver. Possibly something that has a lightweight neodymium magnet system and a suspension that is actually designed for a smaller enclosure. (JBL 2265HPL)

And there is one issue which has not been address yet, while the E140's voice coil can easily handle 100 watts of power. The suspension may not take that much power at very low frequencies. So, you could have the driver fail because of over excursion.

I Can't Change the Laws of Physics. Captain!
58474

all taken in hand, thanks. I do appreciate the help you're giving me.

Just to make sure i understand, looking at JBL's recommended enclosure size tuned to 40Hz for a single E140 I have inside dimensions of:

23.6"x19.2"x16.7"
60cm x 48.8cm x 42.4cm

if we're talking 1/2" or 3/4" ply i should be able to get away with a smaller cab than the 4625B.

[Baron030]

Hi
Here is chart that shows why you can’t change the laws of physics. Pictured are 3 different enclosure sizes and they are all tuned to the same 40 Hz. As you can see the smaller the box the greater the roll off, so there is no way you are going to get really deep bass out of a small box using an E140 driver. It’s all about compromises between enclosure size and depth of bass. Since, you are using a device that can shift frequencies down 1 or 2 octaves. You might run into an issue with cone over excursion. Pictured below is a cone excursion plot with and without a sub-sonic filter. What happens at frequencies below the port tuning frequency is that the air loading on the cone to drops dramatically. This causes the cone to flop back and forth wildly without really generating a lot of sound. Oh, it may look impressive to seeing the cone flopping in and out, but you are not going to hear it. Here is a link to a sub-sonic filter that could be built to protect your drivers:
http://sound.westhost.com/project99.htm Baron030:)
5848158482

[parker_knoll]

that's great, thanks. I have an HPF on my EQ module at 35HZ which i'm using luckily. I didn't want to fry my E120s up till now :)

[GoldcountryJim]

Baron030's chart really demonstrates the limitations of small boxes. Additionally, you need to know that 2 octaves down from a guitar's E string is about 20 hz. Its going to be off the map, meaning you won't hear it. E 140's have an Fs of 32 hz. http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/thiele%20small%20parameters/theile%20parameters.pdf You would really need the low filter to protect the transducer.

A small box will also impact the E and A string fundamentals. The charts show -3 db or worse until the mid 100's. You probably would have to equalize the highs down and lows up to make it work. You could get "icepick" highs otherwise.

I think you mentioned earlier, that you are overdriving the amps. It will have a larger impact as the frequency drops.


Hi
Here is chart that shows why you can’t change the laws of physics. Pictured are 3 different enclosure sizes and they are all tuned to the same 40 Hz. As you can see the smaller the box the greater the roll off, so there is no way you are going to get really deep bass out of a small box using an E140 driver. It’s all about compromises between enclosure size and depth of bass. Since, you are using a device that can shift frequencies down 1 or 2 octaves. You might run into an issue with cone over excursion. Pictured below is a cone excursion plot with and without a sub-sonic filter. What happens at frequencies below the port tuning frequency is that the air loading on the cone to drops dramatically. This causes the cone to flop back and forth wildly without really generating a lot of sound. Oh, it may look impressive to seeing the cone flopping in and out, but you are not going to hear it. Here is a link to a sub-sonic filter that could be built to protect your drivers:
http://sound.westhost.com/project99.htm Baron030:)
5848158482

[parker_knoll]

I'm using E120s crossover over for the mids and highs, so that should avoid the icepick.

It looks like the speaker itself is roughly 6 litres volume, less when front mounted. if i go for a box with internal dimensions of 60cm x 50cm x 40cm that gives me 120 litres, which, less the speaker, delivers pretty much 4 cubic feet. I think i can work that, and it doesn't seem overly small. it works with Baron's graphs. would you define that as a small box?

As i said i have the low filter so that's all good.


Baron030's chart really demonstrates the limitations of small boxes. Additionally, you need to know that 2 octaves down from a guitar's E string is about 20 hz. Its going to be off the map, meaning you won't hear it. E 140's have an Fs of 32 hz. http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/thiele small parameters/theile parameters.pdf You would really need the low filter to protect the transducer.

A small box will also impact the E and A string fundamentals. The charts show -3 db or worse until the mid 100's. You probably would have to equalize the highs down and lows up to make it work. You could get "icepick" highs otherwise.

I think you mentioned earlier, that you are overdriving the amps. It will have a larger impact as the frequency drops.

[GoldcountryJim]

Speaker design for guitar is really a personal matter, so there's no right or wrong answer. If you get the sound you want, its right. If this were sound reinforcement or reproduction you would likely seek a flatter, uncolored response.

Having said that, the low end in the proposed system will be less than it could be. Baron030 already pointed out the the output drop below the mid 100 hz, but there's also a difference in sensitivity between E140's (100db) and E120's (103 db). http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/eseries.pdf You will have to think about the difference in volume of what's coming out of the E120's and the frequencies rolled off by the E140 cabinet. If you play harmonics on the G B and E strings on the seventh fret or above, those tones are going to cut through the mix. The crossover point will make a difference as to where the difference in volume occurs, but doesn't necessarily solve the problem.

Again, whether this is good or bad, isn't decided on paper. Its up to you and your audience.

You could add attenuation to the crossover to give it flexibility.



I'm using E120s crossover over for the mids and highs, so that should avoid the icepick.

It looks like the speaker itself is roughly 6 litres volume, less when front mounted. if i go for a box with internal dimensions of 60cm x 50cm x 40cm that gives me 120 litres, which, less the speaker, delivers pretty much 4 cubic feet. I think i can work that, and it doesn't seem overly small. it works with Baron's graphs. would you define that as a small box?

As i said i have the low filter so that's all good.

[parker_knoll]

Hi, hopefully I mentioned I'm putting twice the power into the E140 than the two E120s, and the result is that they sound pretty balanced, although without crossovers there's too much doubling in the mids, as you'd expect. In the long term I'll probably match the E140 with an E110 which should be a better pairing.

What I'm specifically looking for is getting the best out of the low end in the E140 while having a reasonably portable rig. it looks like JBL's own recommended cab size for a single E140 is manageable. I'm going to keep my eyes out for something approximating those dimensions. it may well be i'd be better off with a 2225 or something since I'm really looking to emphasise the bottom end and in fact i've just bought one of those this very evening, so I'll compare and contrast when it arrives, although at much lower sensitivity it might be better suited for biamping ultimately.


Speaker design for guitar is really a personal matter, so there's no right or wrong answer. If you get the sound you want, its right. If this were sound reinforcement or reproduction you would likely seek a flatter, uncolored response.

Having said that, the low end in the proposed system will be less than it could be. Baron030 already pointed out the the output drop below the mid 100 hz, but there's also a difference in sensitivity between E140's (100db) and E120's (103 db). http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/eseries.pdf You will have to think about the difference in volume of what's coming out of the E120's and the frequencies rolled off by the E140 cabinet. If you play harmonics on the G B and E strings on the seventh fret or above, those tones are going to cut through the mix. The crossover point will make a difference as to where the difference in volume occurs, but doesn't necessarily solve the problem.

Again, whether this is good or bad, isn't decided on paper. Its up to you and your audience.

You could add attenuation to the crossover to give it flexibility.

[parker_knoll]

Hi folks

I'm reviving this old thread because I'm back on this project.

I now have a great cabinet and an E110, so I'm two thirds of the way there, but I'm looking for recommendations for a 15" bass driver to pair with the E110. I will use a crossover.

I had thought to stick with the E series and use an E145 but they are hard to find in Europe and I haven't seen any. I would be grateful for recommendations of other drivers that might pair well with the E110 and give good response down to 45Hz. The E110 will handle all the mids.

I have an M252 around I could employ if people think that might be a good option.

Many thanks,

Toby

[more10]

2226, http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/224366-jbl-2226-ported-something-i-built-srx-boxes.html. The box is pretty big though. 2226 is easy to get and cheap as well.

Mårten

[more10]

2227 for sale in UK: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JBL-2227-15-Loudspeaker-Driver-SVG-Transducer-USED-/371366782798?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item56772f674e

More modern magnet than 2226. Better cone, will go higher as well. This is a very good price since they are rare.

[parker_knoll]

Tak Mårten,

i think i might even have one of those that needs a recone!

I'll measure the dimensions of the box i have at the moment to see if it will work.

[parker_knoll]

pricewise that's too much for me. I can get an E145 for that money if I import it.

What i have already is a 2225H in need of repair.


2227 for sale in UK: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JBL-2227-15-Loudspeaker-Driver-SVG-Transducer-USED-/371366782798?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item56772f674e

More modern magnet than 2226. Better cone, will go higher as well. This is a very good price since they are rare.

[Earl K]

Reviews ( from other bass-players ) for the lightweight Eminence Kappalite 3015 (http://www.parts-express.com/eminence-kappalite-3015-neo-15-speaker-driver--290-597) are quite favourable .

:)

[parker_knoll]

Eminence, noooo!

Other stuff will be going through the cabinet, it's not bass guitar. it's more conventional guitar with sub bass frequencies, plus occasional saxophone.

[more10]

Tak Mårten,

i think i might even have one of those that needs a recone!

I'll measure the dimensions of the box i have at the moment to see if it will work.

Reconing JBL drivers is almost always a bad deal since second hand are cheaper, or should be. A 2226 should cost 100-150€. Beware of non-JBL recone kits.

[parker_knoll]

Reconing JBL drivers is almost always a bad deal since second hand are cheaper, or should be. A 2226 should cost 100-150€. Beware of non-JBL recone kits.

i just got a quote and it's about €130 to recone the one i have with JBL parts, so they say, so it's not that big a difference.

Is there no love for the M252-8 here since I have two of those on hand?

[more10]

Is there no love for the M252-8 here since I have two of those on hand?

High Q, low Bl. Probably 3" VC. Cheap stuff.

[parker_knoll]

High Q, low Bl. Probably 3" VC. Cheap stuff.

thanks, I will probably sell them then.


The 2225 and 2226 come it at 97db efficiency while the E110 is 98db, which I'm guessing is not enough that can't be compensated for with tone controls.

[parker_knoll]

sorry, i have another noob question if anyone has the time. I expect there will be a few more.

So, i have made things harder for myself by basically trying to design to a box rather than building a box to match my desired drivers. This is because I live in a small flat and don't have space or facilities for building here, and also don't trust my skills to do it nicely.

Internal dimensions of my box are:

63cm x 58cm x 30cm

I can't run WinISD so i used a very basic online calculator that shows me that this is too large for the 2225h, and for the other potential sub speaker i have which is 12" Fane Studio 12B.

Obviously i will be building an internal box for the midrange driver which will reduce the overall dimensions, and i will lose some space due to the port.

My question: does it make a lot of difference how big the box i build around the mid range driver is as it will not be handling any bass?

if not i can use the size of the internal midrange box to tune the size of the overall box to match the bass speaker.

Thanks

Toby

[macaroonie]

Here's the WIN predictions for 2225H in 100 ltr , thats your box size minus 10 ltr for all the guff inside.
Tuned to 50Hz is about as low as you can get without the response becoming like a loudness button. Simply put the 2225H is not sufficiently compliant to get much lower. If you were to install a foam roll surround it would do better.

66099

66100

At a first glance your cabinet dims are not very efficient from the point of view of getting a good return from sheet materials , ply or MDF.

Could you live with a little narrower and a little deeper ?

[parker_knoll]

Macaroonie, thanks

Using ISD online i found a pretty good curve for a 90 litre box tuned to 50Hz for the 2225H.

I think i can build to those specs with the E110. There is an efficiency difference which i guess i can accommodate for with an L pad later if I feel it's problematic.

Does it matter much how large the box for the midrange speaker is?

NB i already have the box, hence using these dimensions rather than building to spec.

[macaroonie]

You will not need much more than what will physically enclose the back of the E110.I allowed 10 ltr for the dogbox and ports etc so the working volume is 100 ltr.

A sturdy Tupperware bowl will do the job and save you some bother , I recommend a visit to a kitchenware shop. Just stick it in place with Gripfill or Pinkgrip ( B&Q Tradepoint )
If you need an E110 I have one up for grabs, pristine.

I hope you noticed the vents , 2 @ 100mm dia x 118mm long.

[more10]

Just simulate the E110 in a closed box. Use the falloff in your filter design if it is close in frequency. If an octave below your filter, dont bother. But you need to have some clearance behind the vent in the gap. Not much, an inch or two I believe.

[parker_knoll]

with Macaroonie's measurements i have no problem with gap behind the ports.

One question: how does it come up with the number of vents as two and with that diameter?

I can obviously get different results calculating with different diameters, with one, two or even three vents.

Is that figure given by WinISD the optimum?


For crossover, I'm thinking about 600Hz.

[more10]

You get the same response with short small port(s) as with long wide. The diffrence is air velocity. You get higher air velocity with small ports. In order to decide on port size/length, simulate using xmax. In WinISD you do that by altering the voltage. When you reach xmax, air velocity should not be greater than 15 m/s. Above 15 m/s you will hear the vents "breathing".

More vents will increase the area in the vents, lowering the resonant frequency because the friction will increase i little bit.

[parker_knoll]

You get the same response with short small port(s) as with long wide. The diffrence is air velocity. You get higher air velocity with small ports. In order to decide on port size/length, simulate using xmax. In WinISD you do that by altering the voltage. When you reach xmax, air velocity should not be greater than 15 m/s. Above 15 m/s you will hear the vents "breathing".

More vents will increase the area in the vents, lowering the resonant frequency because the friction will increase i little bit.

ok, that's hugely informative, thanks. i'll work that out when i secure the 15" driver and have the xmax figures.

BTW, the 2226 checks out very well with a box size of 90 litres tuned to 52hz. One just sold for GBP100 on ebay so i'll keep my eye out for another as it's a lot less than an E145 and less than getting my 2225 reconed.

[macaroonie]

with Macaroonie's measurements i have no problem with gap behind the ports.

One question: how does it come up with the number of vents as two and with that diameter?

I can obviously get different results calculating with different diameters, with one, two or even three vents.

Is that figure given by WinISD the optimum?


For crossover, I'm thinking about 600Hz.


The option I posted gives a very low air velocity , hence least chuffing.

Be careful with 2226 out there , big fav with the Disco crowd hence get hammered and although it is a robust driver ..... you know the rest. Many needing recone on E bay and many with aftermarket cones.
It is probably the right driver for your needs but as others have posted it will not and can not plumb the depths bass wise. 50 is about your lot and since you are using a octave divider you will be getting down in the 20's tonally. Sadly that driver will not get there.

[parker_knoll]

all great info.

i suspect with this box size I'll never plumb the depths anyway. I'd need a huge sub and some 18" driver or hyper modern thing for lots of money.

Various other problems remain such as whether I can get the existing baffle out of those box i have (collecting it at start of August) but we'll cross those bridges when we come to them.

thanks to all

[Lee in Montreal]

Macaroonie, thanks

Using ISD online i found a pretty good curve for a 90 litre box tuned to 50Hz for the 2225H.

If I were you, I would use the 2225's Fs40 as your tuning frequency. You will reach lower by tuning the cabinet to 40Hz, and I would also increase the volume to 5cft (140 litres.) If you want bass, you need volume. BTW That 2225 can also do well in a bigger 10cft cab ;-)

[parker_knoll]

Hi Lee

thanks for that but I'm working with an existing box so it's more a case of finding a driver to suit it and getting the best i can out of it.

Thanks

Toby


If I were you, I would use the 2225's Fs40 as your tuning frequency. You will reach lower by tuning the cabinet to 40Hz, and I would also increase the volume to 5cft (140 litres.) If you want bass, you need volume. BTW That 2225 can also do well in a bigger 10cft cab ;-)

[Lee in Montreal]

Sorry, I kinda missread some info. My apologies. ;-)

Lee

[parker_knoll]

Sorry, I kinda missread some info. My apologies. ;-)

Lee

no biggie :)

it may be a stupid idea anyway

[Lee in Montreal]

The usual electric guitar speaker uses a woofer with a metal dome. Which your e140 has. Or should have. That's all you need. If you need more high fequencies, then perhaps a simple 2402 tweeter will do. It does 3kHz to 15KHz at best.

http://www.hifido.co.jp/photo/09/510/51044/c.jpg

For shows or play loud, you'll need a proper cabinet ;-)

http://i57.servimg.com/u/f57/16/57/20/02/456010.jpg

[parker_knoll]

Hi Lee

The E110 also has a metal dome as do the E120s I'm using at the moment.

The E110 goes a fair bit higher than the the E140 and to be honest i didn't really like the sound of the E140 compared to the E110/120. I can't say exactly why that was, but in character it was very different. It sounded "drier". The E120 has a distinct midrange hump the E140 may have lacked. I ended up selling it. E140 is a mid bass - doesn't do highs, doesn't do mega lows. it was intended for bass guitar use.

A two-way cabinet combining 2226 and E110 should give me pretty good response from 50Hz all the way to to about 7k.

I want midrange and extended bass. I don't want HF so I don't want a tweeter. If i decide later on i need HF I can add a tweeter.

JBL did at one point make a couple of 3-ways using the E110 and the E155 18" driver:

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Cabaret%20Series/4698B.pdf
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Cabaret%20Series/4699B.pdf

Another midrange option for my cabinet would be the 2118, which are usually very cheap, but no metal dome on those

[more10]

I believe in your 2226/e-110 kombo. Very good sound at reasonable price.

Do not cross over too high though. The vented bass cabinet can give you problems higher up, and 2226 is not famous for its good midrange. I would say 200 Hz, but then you need an electronic crossover.

Did you already build the box?

[parker_knoll]

I believe in your 2226/e-110 kombo. Very good sound at reasonable price.

Do not cross over too high though. The vented bass cabinet can give you problems higher up, and 2226 is not famous for its good midrange. I would say 200 Hz, but then you need an electronic crossover.

Did you already build the box?

no, i bought the box used. i liked the look :) This is for onstage use so that's not unimportant.
It's also very well made. Had the original price tag of GBP599 on it and I got it for GBP100.

The trick will be getting the baffle out without wrecking it. I did some drawings and I think there is room for the 15" and the 10" if I run them both right to the corners.

66144

66145

I have an electronic crossover but was hoping to avoid using it as that then requires biamping. Could I not go with a passive crossover at about 600Hz?

[parker_knoll]

hi, slight derail. I just ran ISDonline for the 2235 and it looks ideal. Optimal box size is 95lt tuned to 32Hz which matches what i have really well.

Any views on them?

now to find one for sale.

[more10]

hi, slight derail. I just ran ISDonline for the 2235 and it looks ideal. Optimal box size is 95lt tuned to 32Hz which matches what i have really well.

Any views on them?

now to find one for sale.

Fs=20 hz. Must be a hifi driver with foam surround. Avoid.

If you want something better for your application, look for 2220, D/K/E-130. These have much better cone than 2226 and will produce excellent midrange. Go for a driver with metal dustcap since it looks much cooler :-). With that kind of driver you can easily cut at 600 Hz provided there are no problems with the ports.

Probably you want to put the 10 inch in a dogbox to avoid interference with the 15 inch.

[parker_knoll]

yep, foam surround

E130 doesn't cut it in the low frequencies. it's a mid speaker really. i've had one in the past and i did run it through the ISD to check. Can't really get anything below about 80Hz.

2220 is also not giving me good curves below about 90Hz.

A better option is probably E145 if I can find one. they apparently have good midrange. used in the 4628B cabinet crossing over at 800Hz.

E110 will be boxed, something from 10 to 20 litres and lined.

Just to reiterate, the idea is that the E110 will handle mid and upper mid, and i need something to extend the bass downwards, otherwise I might as well not bother. So far 2226 or E145 (along with some non-JBL drivers ***shhhh***) are giving the best curves.

Re. the crossovers, there are 250Hz passive crossovers and even below. is there any reason to fear these?


Fs=20 hz. Must be a hifi driver with foam surround. Avoid.

If you want something better for your application, look for 2220, D/K/E-130. These have much better cone than 2226 and will produce excellent midrange. Go for a driver with metal dustcap since it looks much cooler :-). With that kind of driver you can easily cut at 600 Hz provided there are no problems with the ports.

Probably you want to put the 10 inch in a dogbox to avoid interference with the 15 inch.

[more10]

no, i bought the box used. i liked the look :) This is for onstage use so that's not unimportant.
It's also very well made.

I suggest that you keep the box as it is. Rebuilding it will not be worth the effort. Put the 10 inch in a separate cabinet if you want to experiment.

Get a good 15 inch driver for this nice cabinet. JBL D130 or K130. Original D130 with paper surround are impossible to get, but with cloth surround should be quite easy. If using this outdoors go for a D130F, F for Fender. The D130F was first used in Fender Showman. The F is water resistant.

K130 is almost like D130. D130 has a paper bobin, K has kapton. They both have alnico magnet and will be lighter than the E130.

A D130 in good shape should be able to produce 5 kHz. It will beam badly though. This is not a problem if you play into a microphone.

Save your idea of a 2-way system until you can get a beaten up 4x12 cabinet, or something like the SRX i rebuilt. With that kind of cabinet you can get proper bass as well as have place for a 10 inch driver. Proper bass needs big cabinets.

[more10]

Re. the crossovers, there are 250Hz passive crossovers and even below. is there any reason to fear these?

Properly made will be very expensive. The low frequencies require large components witch can handle the current.

[parker_knoll]

thanks, i hear you. I have indeed thought about just sticking an E130 in here and having a "surf" cab.

I prefer the E series because i don't like the sound of the Ds and the Ks with guitar overdrive.

I saw your thread on the SRX. Very good work. there are lots of those things about. There's even one (can't remember the number) with 2 x 2226 and a tweeter already fitted :)


I suggest that you keep the box as it is. Rebuilding it will not be worth the effort. Put the 10 inch in a separate cabinet if you want to experiment.

Get a good 15 inch driver for this nice cabinet. JBL D130 or K130. Original D130 with paper surround are impossible to get, but with cloth surround should be quite easy. If using this outdoors go for a D130F, F for Fender. The D130F was first used in Fender Showman. The F is water resistant.

K130 is almost like D130. D130 has a paper bobin, K has kapton. They both have alnico magnet and will be lighter than the E130.

A D130 in good shape should be able to produce 5 kHz. It will beam badly though. This is not a problem if you play into a microphone.

Save your idea of a 2-way system until you can get a beaten up 4x12 cabinet, or something like the SRX i rebuilt. With that kind of cabinet you can get proper bass as well as have place for a 10 inch driver. Proper bass needs big cabinets.

[more10]

Before building an analog filter, use a digital filter to simulate it. DBX driverack are cheap enough. When you like what you get from the digital filter you can have someone build the analog filter for you.

[more10]

I saw your thread on the SRX. Very good work. there are lots of those things about. There's even one (can't remember the number) with 2 x 2226 and a tweeter already fitted

Thanks. The problem with the factory cabs is that they are way too small. The 200 litre cabinet is perfect for one 2226, but sticking two in there is one too many.

The bass I get from the rebuilt SRX is crazy. It is a MLTL based on a -6 dB extended shelf vented design. My clubbing nephiews love them. Very good for a small club. They reach 30 Hz. Tuning higher would give crazy SPL.

[parker_knoll]

I have another noob question:

If against More10s advice i do go ahead with this or a related scheme, should I line the main compartment housing the bass speaker? Am I right in thinking it's advised not to stuff it, but i may wish to line it with wadding? I could also leave it bare.

The dogbox housing the 10": should that be lined or stuffed?

thanks

[parker_knoll]

I now have a NOS E110 (thanks Macaroonie) and mint 2226H. I will pick up the cabinet on Monday and we'll see where we go from there.

If the cab doesn't work i'll find or build one that does. Now to find some Sunn-style sparkly silver grill cloth.

I also need to consider crossovers.

[macaroonie]

Cheers . Good job with the 2226:thmbsup:

Fender style cloth

http://www.solsound.com/products.php?cat=Grill%20Cloth%20/%20Piping%20/%20Tolex&sub=Grill&subsub=


Doubt you'll get Sunn weave in the UK.

Wot's your internal dimensions , i'll model the driver dim's against that see if it fits.

[more10]

I will pick up the cabinet on Monday and we'll see where we go from there.

If the cab doesn't work i'll find or build one that does.

Same or new cab?

[more10]

The dogbox housing the 10": should that be lined or stuffed?

It is going to be basically the same since the box will be small and the magnet is quite big.

No stuffing behind the magnet. There should be at least a couple of inches from the magnet to the back wall. You will need this volume for ventilation of the voice coil through the vent on the back of the magnet.

[parker_knoll]

Same or new cab?

same for the time being.

I am not building a neutral hifi speaker, i’m building something that will sound big and awesome in performance and be fun to play through, only that. i'll sell on the cab if it fails at that task.

[parker_knoll]

Holy Necro-thread batman!

Many apologies for waking the dead, but several years on I have finally started this project.

I've initially got the speakers (E110 and 2226H) mounted in separate cabs experimenting with crossover frequencies using a DBX 223XL I happened to have around.

It's not entirely accurate since the 15" cab is ported (see image) but I would say more10 is right and the cut off is much better lower down, round about 100 to 150hz.

This causes me problems because a passive crossover won't work and biamping is a pain for a gigging musician.

I'll have to look at either a) installing a sub amplifier with built in crossover/hi pass or b) choosing a different driver with better mids. Perhaps and E145 or E140? Plenty of the latter about.

90149

[Mr. Widget]

I'll have to look at either a) installing a sub amplifier with built in crossover/hi pass or b) choosing a different driver with better mids. Perhaps and E145 or E140? Plenty of the latter about. How loud do you play? Many decades ago I used a pair of K130s in a high output home stereo system and found the bass was actually pretty good with a bit of shelving EQ below ~150Hz. 3-6dB of boost at 50Hz worked quite well, but this will obviously reduce your max output capability.

An E140 may be better, but I liked the K130 sound better... the E145 is great, but is very rolled off on the bottom so not a likely candidate for your application.


Widget

[parker_knoll]

How loud do you play? Many decades ago I used a pair of K130s in a high output home stereo system and found the bass was actually pretty good with a bit of shelving EQ below ~150Hz. 3-6dB of boost at 50Hz worked quite well, but this will obviously reduce your max output capability.

An E140 may be better, but I liked the K130 sound better... the E145 is great, but is very rolled off on the bottom so not a likely candidate for your application.


Widget

Hi Widget

I was playing small rooms, 50 people or so. After a gap of a few years I expect they'll be even smaller :)

I actually have an E130 right here but it took me a long time to find one in the UK and was quite expensive so I'd be hesitant to use it for bass use. It's also way more efficient than the E110 (105db vs 98db) so likely to completely overpower it.

I'll look some other non-JBL options. Plenty out there. That said the 2226 is fantastic at what it does well - low frequencies.

[Mr. Widget]

It's also way more efficient than the E110 (105db vs 98db) so likely to completely overpower it.D’oh!

Of course… I obviously wasn’t thinking it through.


Widget

[RMC]

I'll look some other non-JBL options. Plenty out there.

In case you come across some older British Fane Acoustics or McKenzie Acoustics i still have some infos about these drivers. A lot of it was deleted from the Web but i kept my paper documentations.

Richard

[parker_knoll]

In case you come across some older British Fane Acoustics or McKenzie Acoustics i still have some infos about these drivers. A lot of it was deleted from the Web but i kept my paper documentations.

Richard

Thanks Richard

I'm now testing with a passive crossover, the Eminence PBX2 500 crossing at 500Hz. it sounds fine except I'm getting crackling at higher volume levels.