Dad’s DIY Paragons make the move…

[DanMan]

So I have “warm-handed” inherited the family Paragons; dad is (still luckily) on his kick about it being: “better to give with a warm hand… than a cold one”.

I can’t share in that… as luckily no dependents have come knocking on my door, unexpected or otherwise :banghead:

But something that all of us here JBL-nuts may share … ‘hearing loss’ in our {hopefully much} later years. Dad’s new speakers fit entirely behind his ears, and play to 145 DECIBELS! :eek: He also tries to limit climbing stairs, which is where the Paragons were for the last 25 years, slowly becoming the last thing to be disconnected where they sat still for the last 10 years (but they still ‘looked’ like they were speeding!;-).


This pair was built by dad himself from around 1969-1974 (hey - cut him some slack, he doesn’t afford any to himself lol; he was building a house at the same time which he designed these around!).

Dad also had great vision in his hey-hey-hey-days :) envisioning a day when a big screen tv would be affordable, and in color ... which he wanted to place in the center, with R+L Paragons flanking… ya know .. like normal stereophonics :confused: ?! So he gets on his letter-writing campaign with JBL and proceeds to design his own plans, while working with JBL folks and their plans, to be R+L halves. That’s the most striking difference anyway in these Paragons … but hey if you’re open to changing *that* … go bonkers right?? (..or maybe that's another one of my genetic inheritances :-0)

These both use the LE15A… and so after removing a back panel and woofer, we found the surround to be harder than good ole American drywall… not that cheap toxic Chinese stuff… though really... what’s in this magical 'lansoloy' compound, with its type-of-rubber-that-never-wears-out-given-proper-lubrication!??? ... More magical JBL sorcery !!?!!! Hey these JBL speakers go SOOOOO fast … you need to apply brake fluid to them… and regularly !!! lolz. That Is Awesome!

So a couple starter questions as I’m trying to revive these obese babies:



is the brake fluid still the ‘solution’?? I scoured and finally found this post, which it seems to be the penultimate guide to the application of braking fluid to lansaloy surrounds:??
(is this in fact ‘the one’, and still ‘applicable’ to the LE15A?) somebody mentioned to only DOT 3 and that Ford was best??

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27548-Lansaloy-DOT3-Surround-Treament-for-LE-14A-and-others



what’s the good word on using “other” woofers in Paragon(s) or something the size and brea(d)th of the Paragon woofer enclosure with big horns on the other side? I tried an old & sorta tired 2231A in one enclosure, unfort the other 2231A has beaten its last non-metallic-sounding breath. I can’t make any real ‘loud’ comparisons … because the right half is still stuck, between a magnet and hard place (Until I get in there and brake it!) So go bonkers here… I know every time I see a 15” opening … I think of stuffing a W15GTi MkII in it and plugging it straight to the wall! So .. What’s in your Paragons??? Or ya know, what else could be fitting for in there??


Thx.
Any feedback / hyperlinks very much appreciated! (pics, yes, I know .. I need to search for stuff)

[BMWCCA]

Congratulations on your acquisition. I'm looking forward to your photos! Pictures of the house, too??

I work with brake fluid every day, but in its original purpose and application: vehicular brakes. We keep it sealed and away from everything else. It is one of the world's best unintentional paint removers. I can't imagine it ever returning your surrounds to the original durometer intended by the designers. If they were mine I would simply have the surrounds replaced with conventional foam surrounds. I'm sure someone can suggest a replacement driver such as the 2234 or 2235 but I can't see that you have anything to lose by trying a simple re-surround first. :dont-know:

[frank23]

I have the big Olympus set, which is the same as the Paragon set, and I have chosen to get them together again first with a pair of 2235's I have and leave the hardened LE15's as they are for now so to make no decisions I can't come back to.

[hjames]

Sounds very cool, and we'd love to know more ...

But, as the old saw goes ..



:useless:






So I have “warm-handed” inherited the family Paragons; dad is (still luckily) on his kick about it being: “better to give with a warm hand… than a cold one”.

I can’t share in that… as luckily no dependents have come knocking on my door, unexpected or otherwise :banghead:

But something that all of us here JBL-nuts may share … ‘hearing loss’ in our {hopefully much} later years. Dad’s new speakers fit entirely behind his ears, and play to 145 DECIBELS! :eek: He also tries to limit climbing stairs, which is where the Paragons were for the last 25 years, slowly becoming the last thing to be disconnected where they sat still for the last 10 years (but they still ‘looked’ like they were speeding!;-).


This pair was built by dad himself from around 1969-1974 (hey - cut him some slack, he doesn’t afford any to himself lol; he was building a house at the same time which he designed these around!).

Dad also had great vision in his hey-hey-hey-days :) envisioning a day when a big screen tv would be affordable, and in color ... which he wanted to place in the center, with R+L Paragons flanking… ya know .. like normal stereophonics :confused: ?! So he gets on his letter-writing campaign with JBL and proceeds to design his own plans, while working with JBL folks and their plans, to be R+L halves. That’s the most striking difference anyway in these Paragons … but hey if you’re open to changing *that* … go bonkers right?? (..or maybe that's another one of my genetic inheritances :-0)


Thx.
Any feedback / hyperlinks very much appreciated! (pics, yes, I know .. I need to search for stuff)

[DanMan]

I can't find the pics from the first house. I was trying to picture teenage girls moreso in those days:screwy:

They were designed into a sort-of horn enclosure in the basement, it basically extended under the staircase; which barely fit the tv, the paragons and some equipment. Most of my pics were pointed the other direction towards the pull out couch and the girls in their pj's. I'm headed back to Houston and will scour for pics to scan from those days and during construction.

Dad bro & me all taking a construction break, some of us just napping apparently.

57759

This was after their 80's styled upgrades, restain, and new room for them.

57760

(Left)

57761

(Right)

57762

The bottom trim is a skirt which conceals the awesome (1970's-grade) 6" casters. You can push these speakers around on the carpet with a finger or two.

57763

[DanMan]

Rear 2-L60T surrounds, 1-L20T rear center
Dad bought the theater chairs for $1 each during a Houston theater demolition. He sandblasted, re-cushioned, re-stitched and built the elevated-bleachers with center control tower for lighting and screen controls.

57764

Center

57765

Moving Day:

57766

[hjames]

Very nice work - looks like a nice heirloom to have
and a great way to always remember your dad!

[Audiobeer]

I've read quite a few posts here on the board but this one is at tops of my list. Love the history and love the fact your Dad wanted to give them up while he's still around. Just great history and thanks for sharing! :applaud:

[Maron Horonzakz]

Take off the lenz and rotate the horns to reflect off the curved panels...It will sound better,,,Thats what the curved panel is for,,,

[DanMan]

Thanks all. I should have probably worded the title thread to more accurately represent whats in here...

These are actually 2-way Paragons.

At the time, (dad had only been in this country for 4 years, after coming here with only a suitcase, and a wife, and another suitcase) he couldn't really afford the drivers + the blueprints + turntable! I still have the original receipts all their correspondence, the blueprints, and all the documentation for the last 42 years on these super heavy babies :applaud:


He somehow managed to convince JBL that a 2-way system would work in these, and they came up with an S-7 system. According to their letters they didn't think the lenz would fit at but they advised him on some workarounds, sold him the instructions and blueprints, and directed him where to obtain all the supplies from their local authorized dealer (we were living in Baltimore at the time).


So I think you're looking at the lenz on the horn in front of an LE85 . And the tweeters always pointed forwarded on the original design so thats the same, but the midrange (375?) is missing, its just the LE15A and LE85 and the (LX5?) x-overs.
Luckily JBL had lifetime guarantees on these products at the time and we did blow the tweeters in them... twice, both during parties :dancin: . The first one is a great tale!! The second not so much, was just 2 years later I think it musta been 1984ish, but the story ended well with JBL placing titanium diaphragms in the tweeters for us, and practically taunted us :nanana: to "try n blow these!" .. which we never could .. though not from a lack of trying:banana:


Can y'all tell the original x-over frequencies from the 3-way Paragon? I'm curious if the x-over frequency is different in these for the bass than the original design, and if so how what audible difference would that make coming out of the folded horn???

[yggdrasil]

LX-5: 500Hz and N7000: 7KHz.

[Maron Horonzakz]

It would be a waste of cabinet design and all his effert.. By not useing the curved reflective portion of the cabinet,,,You,l like the results..

[SEAWOLF97]

I really like seeing the bond between generations and music/gear is the perfect bridge. :D

[Hoerninger]

Take off the lenz and rotate the horns to reflect off the curved panels...
So true. :thmbsup:
____________
Peter

[DanMan]

So I returned the favor for dad over the holidays.... his "system" finally went "too quiet" for him:dead_horse:

Yes, recycling great gear with family & friends is awesome and fun! So I traded an old Dual turntable (which dad just fixed) to a guy in Austin for a perfect set of JBL L3's. I swapped out the 035Tia for some standards 035Ti's (I had slated the Tia's for another project already) and figured the 035Ti's would be brighter for him anyway and even moreso fit in really well with the tweets in the 3-L20T's for center and surrounds. Brought in my old Yamaha 100wpc X 5, and only needed to buy a 460Watt Polk (sorry) sub, some speaker wire, and it was all done and making noise. I should put a db meter on it tomorrow if I remember.


Well the rear L20T is about 18" from the side of yer face sitting down at the end of the couch. Our test dvd was Dark Knight Rises. At about 50:30 batman is cornered on his motorcycle, which somehow turns into a jet-powered helicopter<!> and he rumbles off above all the cops and the cameras at about 20' in the air. The wind blast generated by that thing.... I'm talking coming out the port hole of the L20T ... was freakin' unbelievable ... it was like the helicopter was actually in the room..!!

The folks didn't believe I had *not* installed a fan in the room and mom started actually looking around the room for it! She wouldn't believe the wind was coming from the speakers. Just a wild and awesome experience for everyone!


I'll give the rotated horn a try, to reflect it off the panel... But I'm thinking if we bounce any more sound off any more walls before hearing them, we'd have to get some Bose badges for the front of these things :blink: ???

Dad already sat me down for a 'serious conversation' .... he wants to "black contact paper" the center L20T to match the L3. After shitting a brick, I came back with an offer to find an L1 for his center...

[HCSGuy]

When I get back from vacation, I'll look in my stash - I may have a single L1 you can have for cheap (my dad used to use one for a center when he had L7's).

I don't think rotating the horn is going to get you anything unless you also make the speakers a three way and add a tweeter that does not reflect off the baffle, as the Paragon had. I will leave it to those who own Paragons to argue whether the curved baffle/midrange reflection trick requires the old "Ping Pong Stereo" recordings from the old days or if it still is valid with modern recordings.

I'm glad you could set your dad up with something good - My father got the same S7 load when he was in college and built several enclosures for them over the years. When the Lansalloy surrounds dried up, he stopped listening to them, so I got him L7's, then 250Ti's and took his old drivers, which have been reconed and put in L200 Enclosures. They are now doing shop audio duty for me, as he made me promise never to get rid of them. I guess that means they get buried with me:)

[Rolf]

This is NOT a Paragon.

Rolf


I can't find the pics from the first house. I was trying to picture teenage girls moreso in those days:screwy:

They were designed into a sort-of horn enclosure in the basement, it basically extended under the staircase; which barely fit the tv, the paragons and some equipment. Most of my pics were pointed the other direction towards the pull out couch and the girls in their pj's. I'm headed back to Houston and will scour for pics to scan from those days and during construction.

Dad bro & me all taking a construction break, some of us just napping apparently.

57759

This was after their 80's styled upgrades, restain, and new room for them.

57760

(Left)

57761

(Right)

57762

The bottom trim is a skirt which conceals the awesome (1970's-grade) 6" casters. You can push these speakers around on the carpet with a finger or two.

57763

[ivica]

This is NOT a Paragon.

Rolf

http://www.audioheritage.org/images/jbl/extracts/section.jpg
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/paragon.htm

regards
ivica

[BMWCCA]

This is NOT a Paragon.
Everyone understands that and yet we are still intrigued by the industrious ingenuity of the builder and his progeny's continuing affair with his creation. Nothing beats fond memories of our earlier generations, especially while they're still around to see us enjoying their efforts.
:applaud:

[SEAWOLF97]

This is NOT a Paragon.

Rolf

granted ..so call it a PIJBLDCS" (paragon inspired JBL driven custom system) or Paragonish or even just Paragon ... who cares ? it the heritage and inspiration and bond between generations that matter, not a name.

[Mr. Widget]

granted ..so call it a PIJBLDCS" (paragon inspired JBL driven custom system) or Paragonish or even just Paragon ... who cares ? it the heritage and inspiration and bond between generations that matter, not a name.:thmbsup:

Absolutely... technically it may not be an exact clone of a Paragon, but who cares... it is an heirloom and absolutely Lansing Heritage!



Widget

[pathfindermwd]

This is NOT a Paragon.

Rolf

The thread clearly state's: Dad's DIY Paragons. Nothing DIY can truly be sold as the real thing. The story and pics are the real gem here.

[Maron Horonzakz]

I,m always interested to see variations on Paragon design,,This one has posibilities of continuating driver upgrades.

[Ruediger]

I,m always interested to see variations on Paragon design,,This one has posibilities of continuating driver upgrades.

http://vacuumbibles.blogspot.de/2010/11/blog-post.html

ruediger

[Earl K]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_H75_2XskVME/TNcYr1SLm3I/AAAAAAAAABU/zyhu6g2oaGg/s1600/DSCF0388.jpg

:)

[pathfindermwd]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_H75_2XskVME/TNcYr1SLm3I/AAAAAAAAABU/zyhu6g2oaGg/s1600/DSCF0388.jpg

:)

That is sweet!!!

[DanMan]

Hi. Well yeah, sorry, thought I had titled the thread appropriately with "DIY Paragons" ... but not many have accused me of being 'appropriate', and now I don't even know how to change it ;-)

But yes, I suppose it does need to be stated clearly, in case anyone thinks I'm here for profit: "THESE ARE NOT JBL PARAGON."

Furthermore, the Paragon instructions clearly states the results of the project may not be for "resale or commercial use", so its really a moot point, and with loud implications.

But hey "I'm just here to read the articles" okay I admit it, I look at and share pics too.

I have a question about the JBL Paragon "Industrial Variant" from a pic on this website: it appears as if that variant version is also split into a L+R pair. Is this just an "artists conception" image or were a 'pair' of the Paragon ever built by JBL or anyone?

http://www.audioheritage.org/images/jbl/extracts/industrial.jpg

(Dad says he has more pics from construction on slides so we'll do some scanning next time I'm there and upload. Is there truly a 5 image limit/post here?)

HCSGuy (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?11322-HCSGuy): yes much obliged on the L1 offer for his new center for cheap. A single and cheap JBL speaker is good and hard to find!

[HCSGuy]

My schedule changed a little, and I won't be back in town until Jan 7th - sorry for the delay, but I'll check on the single L1 then. I'm almost sure I've got one, but I don't remember the condition.

[4345]

This post made my day. What a beautiful photo of Dad and his boys. I am an older dad with two young sons. When I go home tonight I am going to take some photos with some of my speakers, me and my boys. I think my speakers will out live me. I hope they also fondly remember dad and his hifi hobby.

[Earl K]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=57759&d=1356292628

Truly a wonderful picture there Dan .

Gets my vote for the best ( LHF ) build pic of 2012 !

:)

PS ; I would certainly like to see more of those .

[Rolf]

Sorry if I offended someone. t was not my intension. I just wanted to point out that the design is very different than the original made by JBL. I am sure the owner (and builder) made a great effort building it, and that the sound can be very good.

Again, sorry if my comment was improper.

Rolf

[DanMan]

Thank rolf. It did need to be said. I've seen many people try to sell many weird things here over the last 6 years :confused:

Dad's effort of building them is not nearly as great as the effort of lifting up the finished product and moving them! Dad just restores antique cars in his retirement; he can take apart a car to the frame, put all the parts in an unlabeled mound, and put it all back together without a leftover screw... It's mind-boggling!

But if you're asking if the sound is ... 'very good' ?? .... haha. IDK... I suppose they sound like any other 2-way paragon"s" ??!!?

We obviously like it LOUD ... and these speakers do perform! My favorite (of dad's music) was Rossini's William Tell Overture and Tchaikovsky's 1812. You owe it to yourselves to listen to these on the Paragon, Metregon, or and folded-horn speaker you can get near. For us, the order of Exodus out of the room, proportional to the volume, was the pets, followed by the kids, followed by the wife, till just the guy with the volume control remains. It is a phenomenal experience. These types of speakers in my humble opinion excel for classical music, symphonies, timpani drums, and many of the larger wind instruments.

However..... you're a crook to yourself if you have folded horn speakers and have NOT played organ music at FULL volume through them. The sound is near perfect reproduction of the original work, it sounds as if you're actually INSIDE the organ itself, or perhaps it inside you, the experience is beyond surreal at >100 decibels. The Bach Organ Toccata is perhaps the most popular. I just downloaded an 18 disc set of Bach... really need to get some brake fluid now! :)

There are better pics coming.... it'll take me a few weeks to get back to his house.

[Maron Horonzakz]

DAMAN,,,Yes an "Industrial Pro version" was offered from JBL,,,I have only seen one,,(in black) It didnt have any woofers or drivers or mid horns installed or carved legs in front yet,, It was supposed to be used behind a cinema screen,, That was in St Louis,,,The last I saw of it was in Tavern/cocktail lounge in GasLight Square in MidTown StL,, Someone painted Flowers and other designs all over it,,Back in the Hippy era,,,,, They did that to a BOZAK CONCERT GRAND too.. "Cretin Bastards":crying:

[Oldmics]

JBL did build the industrial variant Paragon.I have heard of a second one that was destroyed years ago. But mines all original :bouncy:

Follow the links for pictures.

Oldmics

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?8144-Commercial-Paragon/page4&highlight=industrial+variant

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?24639-Just-how-good-are-Paragons-really&highlight=industrial+variant

[DanMan]

Oldmics - Very Nice! I love looking at all the stuff in the background of JBL collector's pics. Your mics are a nice touch. I love thinking about, and seeing your, "cradle to the wave" approach! From the microphone cradle (the first electromagnetic device capturing the sound) to the wave (the final electromagnetic device reproducing the sound). Just fantastic!

[DanMan]

So I just pour one full canister into each woofer cone and let it impregnate overnite to get the sensation???
57849
Just kidding! It was a buy-one-get-one-free deal and the hand cleaner was only a dollar.

So if thats the right fluid I then just follow these instructions...?

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27548-Lansaloy-DOT3-Surround-Treament-for-LE-14A-and-others

To help prove BMWCCA's (2009) comment .... here's a pic of dad taking a break restoring his Model T :)57850

[Oldmics]

So I just pour one full canister into each woofer cone and let it impregnate overnite to get the sensation???
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=57849&d=1357177180
Just kidding! It was a buy-one-get-one-free deal and the hand cleaner was only a dollar.

So if thats the right fluid I then just follow these instructions...?

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...14A-and-others (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27548-Lansaloy-DOT3-Surround-Treament-for-LE-14A-and-others)

To help prove BMWCCA's (2009) comment .... here's a pic of dad taking a break restoring his Model T :)http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=57850&d=1357177181


Yep,just follow those directions.

If Dads anything like me and lives in a cold weather area-get him a set of coveralls that he can wreck while restoring his machine.

I got two pairs to rotate while I do my T Birds.Certainly saves me ruining my jeans.

Oldmics

[DanMan]

That was his first restoration job, pic must be 35 years old and from Baltimore. Our garage had kerosene heaters that looked & sounded like jet engines... today in Houston he only needs a window-mounted a/c unit in the garage.

What are your Tbirds? I've sold my '84 and '97 but still have the '65. Oh man I miss the JBL's in that '97! Only an AM radio and a mono speaker fit in the 65.

[Rolf]

Thanks for accepting my apologies. I love the Paragon, witch I had before. BUT the seller wants US$ 4000,00 for it to much for me. My 4343-b's sound much better. Do you know anybody that will pay more money to get them? maybe in the Japanese. ???

Rolf

[DanMan]

Is this white powdery residue normal? I read somewhere by Zilch (RIP) that normal oxidation occurs but it was in reference to midranges I think. Is there a risk of this powder getting into the voice coil if not thoroughly cleaned ?? Thx!
(sorry Rolf I only know a pseudo-paragon builder ... not any buyers & sellers)

57853

[NickH]

Its probably zinc oxide. But I'm not certain of that.

Nick

[DanMan]

It had about the consistency of the first layer of a piece of drywall (chaulky-dusty-paper-like) which is why I worried about transpiration somehow into the coil. I thought I remembered it being signifying paper wrapped around an apparent slight recess in the basket. Well it vacuumed right off anyways and carefully from both woofers :) (Was a little too conservative with the brake fluid on the convex side of the surrounds ... but they are loosening.) Some more pics going into the chamber from the rear of the speakers. Lookin' inside at the plywood :banghead: wow they had some really nice patterns in those days!! :D

57862

Looks like painting might have been an afterthought experience...

57863

oh baby

57864

holy moses!

57865

look at 'em curves! whoa ;)

57866

[SEAWOLF97]

Thanks for accepting my apologies. I love the Paragon, witch I had before. BUT the seller wants US$ 4000,00 for it to much for me. My 4343-b's sound much better. Do you know anybody that will pay more money to get them? maybe in the Japanese. ???

Rolf

Japan has been stagnant for a while ...China or VietNam or Korea is where the money is (outside of the Middle East)

we just watched a DVD called "The bridges & hiways of VietNam" ...incredible buildings, 6 lane hiways, super bridges, (they've even bridged the Mekong River now) ... lot of money flowing in (or lots of loans ? ) ....don't think much filters down to the man in the street yet, but lots of the noveau riche are trying to buy social acceptance ... (JBL's and Bose are in high demand there)

[Rolf]

Maybe off topic, but I have the opportunity to buy a paragon here in Norway. He ask for $US3300. I think this is to much. What is the price for a Paragon in the US? The drivers have never been re-coned, so I guess this also must be re-coned. The Paragon is from the 7'tis. What do you think?

Rolf

[grumpy]

$3300 USD? perhaps you dropped a zero? :)

[lowpoke]

$3300 USD? perhaps you dropped a zero? :)


Or a couple of zeros:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-PARAGON-D44000-SPEAKER-Earliest-Model-w-150-4C-375-075-WW-Shipping-/121044099707

[Rolf]

$3300 USD? perhaps you dropped a zero? :)

Yes I think I did. 200.000 NKR should be US$ 33.333,00

Rolf

[DanMan]

I'm not sure Rolf... but $33,333 USD sounds like its more about the money than the music...??

For that kind of money, you could buy a house in Detroit and replace all the walls with other JBL speakers...

[Rolf]

Sound good, but I have trouble to get a Green Card. Have been working to move to the USA for about one year now. No luck so far.

Rolf


I'm not sure Rolf... but $33,333 USD sounds like its more about the money than the music...??

For that kind of money, you could buy a house in Detroit and replace all the walls with other JBL speakers...

[DanMan]

So I finally got the lansoloy loosened up... took 3 coats of brake fluid! (which I don't recommend that much, it was probably too much, but these woofers haven't been 'out of their boxes' in 40-some years!)

I think I finally got pseudo good placement for them in the listening room. Some pics attached. Sadly the dynakit tube amps we used to run in mono and revitalized a few years back gave out, 1 gave out, the other has plenty of distortion above 90 db.

So I revitalized a 20 yr old Yamaha receiver that was in my garage from an old friend. It's 70 wpc.

Test CD was Barry Adamson - As Above So Below. Its a great CD... plenty of dynamic range, well recorded, great engineering, just an awesome CD.

I had my semi-decent lcd decibel meter out, and was takin some measurements. I was comfortably listening to about 115 db at about 3 or 4 feet away.. as the song (forgot which one) was ending I got up to measure the spl at about 1 foot away from the speaker.... but nearly all the songs on the album end in a loud crescendo... and the volume knob was about a second away in trotting distance .... as I got closer to the speaker the spl started increasing until the meter was PEGGED... PEGGED I tell ya... at 130 DECIBELS for about a full second!! Judging from the 10 db increment prior to that, I'd estimate it was about 135 decibels a foot from the front face of the 'paragons'. Just WOW! There was quite a bit of distortion tho... as its only a 70wpc receiver. But it was an amazing experience, my ears were ringing for a few minutes after that!

So, couple questions for y'all....

1) what sensitivity should I be expecting outta these speakers? (1 watt @ 1 meter)? They seem to be between my L100T at 92 and the 4655's I'm running in the back as "quad sound" at 100 db. (I don't know how to generate exactly 1 watt)

2) what sort of power (wpc) would be suitable for these speakers? (the old yamaha receiver is rather bunk, most of the knobs are worn out beyond deoxit I think) Ideally I like to match the speaker's Max Power Handling to the amp's RMS numbers, but with JBL, I can't always afford that kinda power :)

I'd like to keep the 4655's in the rear but not sure how to accommodate the difference in sensitivity between them without separate volume knobs?!??

Much obliged y'all! I'm finally back in Houston, found tons more pics and will look through old slides in the coming days for more pics. Thx, Dan.

[DanMan]

The original dynakit amps that dad bought from the hifi shop along with the components for the 'paragons'. All new russian tubes sadly this configuration didn't work out. Blew one of the tubes, then it started blowing the fuses.

58138

Picture holding the camera at the ceiling

58139

Rear speakers 4655's that I got on craigslist for $100. A really cool guy gave them to his daughter for her college dorm, bet she was popular<!>, and she didn't need them anymore after graduation. They are really super loud :)

58140

[Maron Horonzakz]

Well glad your enjoying the speakers,,,,BUT,,Kranking up the volume is not what music is about,,Your young,,I,m VERY old,,Those Dynakits can be rebuilt and would last another 40 years,,,If you blow those JBL mid drivers ,,Than your fucked,,,A pair of used 375 hf units will cost $2000. on EBAY..But your Young and adventurous,,Have fun though,,, Maron

[DanMan]

135 db was a huge mistake Maron I assure ya :)

I'm an old guy in young guy's shoes. But my dad taught me how to ascertain THD when I was ~10 years old. Oddly back then, I could hear about .1 % THD .... moreso than I could determine if the polarity was correct! Took me a long time to hear polarity for some reason, my brain operates a little different than most I think, but THD and just regular distortion I can hear a mile away.

But you're right, I'm really lucky I didn't blow anything mechanically, electrically, or biologically ! (I must admit I do like gettin fucked, but only in the good ways ;-)

[Audiobeer]

Don't give up on the amps! They obviously need be recapped! Don't give up on them yet!

[DanMan]

Does "recapped" just mean changing the capacitors?????

Oh man we could do that easy!?. I was victim of the "Capacitor Plague" of the first decade of the y2k on all my LCD monitors

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

The fix was easy, dad and I drove downtown Houston bought a few dozen capacitors, opened up all my monitors resoldered the caps, and viola, they're still working today.

So just change the caps on those babies? Can you send some links on some details for this?

Much obliged,
Dan.

PS-Scanned some more old photos the last few days back here in Houston. Sadly we think dad has a brain tumor or growth, as if our brains could get any bigger hah, so we go in Tuesday for that. Still need to delve into the slides. Will upload pics this weekend. Audio cheers and beers ya'll.!

[DanMan]

Think I might've been born in this speaker!


58210

Oh the things you'll create in a basement!

58211

Check out that funky stool :blink: R2D2 was our shop vac :eek:

58212

A suit? Um no that was my brother!

58213

Say hi to proud dad.

58214

[DanMan]

I can't stop staring there

58222

Boys and their toys

58223

Sweater Break

58224

[Maron Horonzakz]

Those Pics should be enlarged and framed in your listening room,,They are great. Thanks for shareing..

[DanMan]

Is that a "Compact Disc" for me on my birthday?? (1973 - musta been Dark Side Of The Moon) :)


ATTACH]58227[/ATTACH]

I wear my dunce hat on the inside ;p

[doodle6]

Fantastic Idea!!


Those Pics should be enlarged and framed in your listening room,,They are great.

[SEAWOLF97]

Sound good, but I have trouble to get a Green Card. Have been working to move to the USA for about one year now. No luck so far.

Rolf

why is that ? I've always heard that Norway is much nicer.

easy to move here.... Fly to one of our neighbor countries , cross over, don't leave ...amnesty will make you legal ..millions have done it.

[tom1356]

Thanks for letting me know how bad my Father sucked. :)

[badman]

why is that ? I've always heard that Norway is much nicer.

easy to move here.... Fly to one of our neighbor countries , cross over, don't leave ...amnesty will make you legal ..millions have done it.

Millions may have done it, but that doesn't mean it's a good route. I have a costa rican friend who effectively did that, and it was quite a battle to get legal immigration status thereafter as a known violator.

[Rolf]

Well, Norway is nicer? You have no idea how much we pay in tax on EVERYTHING! 1 (one) gallon for petrol costs about US$ 56 1/4 liter of beer is about US$ 4 (in a shop) 20 cigarettes about US$ 17. Cars are very expensive. I could go on and on. Besides that I am very fond of the USA ... the great outdoors etc. Rolf. What do you mean about flying to another country and just stay? You mean Mexico or ???
why is that ? I've always heard that Norway is much nicer.

easy to move here.... Fly to one of our neighbor countries , cross over, don't leave ...amnesty will make you legal ..millions have done it.

[Mr. Widget]

Well, Norway is nicer? You have no idea how much we pay in tax on EVERYTHING! 1 (one) gallon for petrol costs about US$ 56 1/4 liter of beer is about US$ 4 (in a shop) 20 cigarettes about US$ 17. Cars are very expensive. I could go on and on. Besides that I am very fond of the USA ... the great outdoors etc. Rolf. What do you mean about flying to another country and just stay? You mean Mexico or ???Do you have any idea what a heart attack costs in the US?


Widget

[SEAWOLF97]

Well, Norway is nicer? You have no idea how much we pay in tax on EVERYTHING! 1 (one) gallon for petrol costs about US$ 56 1/4 liter of beer is about US$ 4 (in a shop) 20 cigarettes about US$ 17. Cars are very expensive. I could go on and on. Besides that I am very fond of the USA ... the great outdoors etc. Rolf. What do you mean about flying to another country and just stay? You mean Mexico or ???

WOW !!!! US$56 a gallon for gas ? hope that's super premium. :eek: over $1,000 to fill my tank ? WOW , again ...:crying:

Maybe thats why some of your posts seem superfluous to us ..when you say thats there's no decent CD player under $3K , now I understand...that's peanuts to you.

How long have you spent in the great outdoors of the US ? I remember when you first decided to visit and were asking about buying a gun for self protection.

We usually equate Norway to New Zealand ... pristine beauty and few people.


Millions may have done it, but that doesn't mean it's a good route. I have a costa rican friend who effectively did that, and it was quite a battle to get legal immigration status thereafter as a known violator.

I was being somewhat facetious ..my in-laws and many friends have come here the right way ...they do their piles of paperwork, pay lots of fees and wait and wait and wait. some of my German friends have been on the list nearly 20 years. I have heard there is a lottery to be among the 50,000 (afair) to come per year. The ones who do it the right way are many times PO'ed at the ones that sneak across the river at night.
The "undocumented" or "uninvited" or whatever we now call them , get "in-state" tuition, drivers licenses, even a dedicated waiting area for construction crews to cruise by and grab them for the day ..etc . They now demonstrate, demanding "their rights" :crying:

sure ain't the America I grew up in ....you waited too long Rolf, the best days are long gone ...:barf:

to OP: sorry for the hijack...this forum just seems to wander like that sometimes.


Do you have any idea what a heart attack costs in the US?
Widget

$56 US per gallon must induce a lot of them

[yggdrasil]

Do you have any idea what a heart attack costs in the US?


Widget
One life?

[Rolf]

No, but I guess the insurance wil cover things like that. Rolf.
Do you have any idea what a heart attack costs in the US?


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

No, but I guess the insurance wil cover things like that. Rolf.Many Americans don't have insurance and many who do have such high deductibles that a major illness can bankrupt them... I'll leave it there as this is not only OT but will quickly dive off into politics.


Widget

[Rolf]

Very well. I have got an answer from the government that my pension ++ all that is included, but I must get it in writing


.
Many Americans don't have insurance and many who do have such high deductibles that a major illness can bankrupt them... I'll leave it there as this is not only OT but will quickly dive off into politics.


Widget

[DanMan]

Well aside from the politics and the cost of living in either place.... are the great outdoors!

Norway great outdoors are awesome! I remember taking the train from Oslo to Bergen, it was an awesome ride, the scenery fantastic, the blond girls splendid, the night skies stellar, the early morning fresh fish markets on the coasts incredible, sleeping in a tent in the wilderness okay that was kind of buggy and cold, but a great trip all the way around!

And the US great outdoors have not changed much at all over the last 30-40 years. Sure we've a few more starbucks and walmarts, but that's in the cities themselves. Our national parks and forests and such are all still mostly intact and there.

And if you lived in the great outdoors... wouldn't we all want to put our speakers on trains in the wilderness like this: ??

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/catalogs/1975-home/page14.jpg

[NickH]

Im a little lost. Diy paragons and now heart attacks, goverment revolts. Dogs and cats living togehter, mass hysteria.


December 25 2012 must be the end...... Oh wait its already past...




Never mind, carry on.

[Mr. Widget]

Im a little lost.
We seem to have left that topic back in early January. :blink:



Widget

[DanMan]

Well I am all out of build pics sorry. I did get dad a new slide scanner around xmas but no new pics yet from that. There was one more pic of the 'alcove' these 'fit in' ... but it turned out to be just a (albeit specially constructed to be symmetrical) space under the staircase that when I was 2 feet tall looked kinda enormous.

These 'paragons' have finally found their new home as front L+R speakers in my 8.3 surround sound system setup. The 4655's, with their same size 15" woofers as the paragons, and 'same' titanium horn tweeters, and similarly high (100db) spl sensitivity, made for really nice front center and rear center speakers. The L100T with their measly hahaha 92 db sensitivity have a hard time keeping up ~ even with twice the power to them ~ as rear speakers. And L60T as front effects speakers add some nice spatial sound qualities.

I still need to rearrange the electronic components, hide the wires, and then it'll be ready for more pics....

Cheers y'all!
Dan

[Odd]

Not to scare all the tourists from Norway.

WOW !!!! US$56 a gallon for gas ? hope that's super premium. :eek: over $1,000 to fill my tank ? WOW , again ...:crying:

Do not know where Rolf fills his car, but this is more realistic.
One gallon = 3,785 liters
One liters gas, Nkr 15,00 = USD 2,63 x 3,785 = USD 9,95 a gallon



Still far from topic

[NickH]

I was just trying to inject a little comic relief. With the political, economic talk and all.

Sorry if I came out of left field. Kinda what I was going for. Didn't mean to annoy anyone.




We seem to have left that topic back in early January. :blink:



Widget

[hjames]

I was just trying to inject a little comic relief. With the political, economic talk and all.

Sorry if I came out of left field. Kinda what I was going for. Didn't mean to annoy anyone.

No annoyance at all - you're good - and those other folks?

... its a dry humour ...


We seem to have left that topic back in early January. http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/blink.gif

Widget

[SEAWOLF97]

Do not know where Rolf fills his car,


and pays US$16 a liter for beer ...:eek:

the US is so cheap, it will seem like FREE for him ...

[DanMan]

... its a dry humour ...

Is there any other kind?? :D

[NickH]

No annoyance at all - you're good - and those other folks?

... its a dry humour ...

And here I thought it was just a tough crowd, LOL.




Thank you, Thank you, And dont fotget to tip you bartender.

[Rolf]

Hi. Great to hear that you find Norway so great. I don't want to live in a big town in the us. I want to find a little place up hills.

Thanks for your input.

Rolf


Well aside from the politics and the cost of living in either place.... are the great outdoors!

Norway great outdoors are awesome! I remember taking the train from Oslo to Bergen, it was an awesome ride, the scenery fantastic, the blond girls splendid, the night skies stellar, the early morning fresh fish markets on the coasts incredible, sleeping in a tent in the wilderness okay that was kind of buggy and cold, but a great trip all the way around!

And the US great outdoors have not changed much at all over the last 30-40 years. Sure we've a few more starbucks and walmarts, but that's in the cities themselves. Our national parks and forests and such are all still mostly intact and there.

And if you lived in the great outdoors... wouldn't we all want to put our speakers on trains in the wilderness like this: ??

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/catalogs/1975-home/page14.jpg

[DanMan]

Hi. I want to find a little place up hills.

Thanks for your input.

Rolf

There's No Place like Austin Texas. And its the "Hill Country"!
C'mon down, ya hear!?? :)

[NickH]

There's No Place like Austin Texas. And its the "Hill Country"!
C'mon down, ya hear!?? :)

And no nasty winter either.

[DanMan]

And no nasty winter either.

Yeah, not nasty, but freaky for sure! :blink: Freak ice and hail storms at least once or twice a year. I've lost more cars to Austin ice storms than by any other means.

[doodle6]

Hi. Great to hear that you find Norway so great. I don't want to live in a big town in the us. I want to find a little place up hills.

Thanks for your input.

Rolf

The closest to what you're used to is probably gonna be far northern California, north of Redding, and on up into southern Oregon, not too far off the coast, maybe around Mt. Shasta and north almost to Washington (actually, on into Washington, depending on your politics - WA and CA are among our most liberal states. My buddy from Oslo preferred small gov't Texas because of his experience in Norway). Beautiful area with mountains, forests, water.

[edit: not trying to start anything, but the Norwegian who worked with me for a decade expressed a very strong feeling of personal relief with the change to Texas, and I thought that might be relevant to Rolf.]

[Rolf]

Thanks. but how do I get a green card?

Rolf


The closest to what you're used to is probably gonna be far northern California, north of Redding, and on up into southern Oregon, not too far off the coast, maybe around Mt. Shasta and north almost to Washington (actually, on into Washington, depending on your politics - WA and CA are among our most liberal states. My buddy from Oslo preferred small gov't Texas because of his experience in Norway). Beautiful area with mountains, forests, water.

[edit: not trying to start anything, but the Norwegian who worked with me for a decade expressed a very strong feeling of personal relief with the change to Texas, and I thought that might be relevant to Rolf.]

[Mr. Widget]

[edit: not trying to start anything, but the Norwegian who worked with me for a decade expressed a very strong feeling of personal relief with the change to Texas, and I thought that might be relevant to Rolf.]Well put and I agree... do realize that virtually all of rural CA is very "Red State" (meaning a desire for small government and generally conservative views)... and it is the coastal and urban majorities in the state that force a more liberal agenda on them for better and worse.


Sorry to continue to contribute to the OT discussion, but many have a very distorted view if the Golden State and it seemed appropriate to mention.



Widget

[Mr. Widget]

Thanks. but how do I get a green card?

Rolf
Green Card (http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=80f63a4107083210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCR D&vgnextchannel=80f63a4107083210VgnVCM100000082ca60a RCRD)


Widget

[SEAWOLF97]

The closest to what you're used to is probably gonna be far northern California, north of Redding, and on up into southern Oregon, not too far off the coast, maybe around Mt. Shasta and north almost to Washington (actually, on into Washington, depending on your politics - WA and CA are among our most liberal states.

Oregon is more conservative than you think, although semi-populated by disaffected Californians. Of the 3 COW states, Wash. has the more liberal laws ...IMHO

Don't think Oregon is the right place for Rolf (or anyone else) to immigrate to. Southern Oregon that you mention is REDNECK territory and very different from the population centers of Eugene, Portland. I had read than nearly half the population (before the southern invasion) had Germanic roots somewhere in their past.

Our population is decreasing, as many of "the uninvited" return home, due to lack of work. And it's too cold, and too wet, and too green, and too ...etc., etc.

[doodle6]

Well put and I agree... do realize that virtually all of rural CA is very "Red State" (meaning a desire for small government and generally conservative views)... and it is the coastal and urban majorities in the state that force a more liberal agenda on them for better and worse.


Sorry to continue to contribute to the OT discussion, but many have a very distorted view if the Golden State and it seemed appropriate to mention.



WidgetA lot of people would be surprised to learn that Texas shares some similarities to California in that regard. Dallas, San Antonio, Houston, Austin as well as the Rio Grande Valley all vote blue. It's just that the urbanization hasn't progressed far enough to tip the statewide pattern.

[DanMan]

Howdy all;

Early on in this post y'all mentioned upgrades to these speakers. I've finally got a little cash and would like to upgrade the woofers. The reason/motive is that while the LE-15A was a great woofer in its time, I'd like to generate more low end response out of these Paragon(s). I find the LE-15A (like y'all do) somewhat lacking below 30 hz. The 20-30hz, and again at 60 hz, are my favorite frequencies on the low end.

Can y'all chime in on on some possible replacements for the woofers that would not require x-over or tweeter mods? I really like the LE85 sound and want to keep those.

What other possible woofers could I use in these? If there is a modification necessary I could handle the woodwork required to accommodate the extra depth or throat opening, but that's probably all.

Much obliged with y'alls recommendations.

Thanks,
Dan

[Lee in Montreal]

Add a sub.

[more10]

The problem is not the woofer, its the horn. I really don´t believe the Paragon horn is able to output anything below 30 Hz, its too short.

[Lee in Montreal]

The problem is not the woofer, its the horn. I really don´t believe the Paragon horn is able to output anything below 30 Hz, its too short.


The 7ft long horn in the 4530 cuts out at 40Hz
The 8ft long horn in the 4520 cuts out at 35Hz

How long in the horn in the Paragon? Can't beat physics. Hence my recommendation to use a sub.

http://www.gielfeldt.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/section.jpg

[Maron Horonzakz]

I WOULD RECOMMEND A SUB,,,ALSO THE LE 15 surround gets hard and needs refoaming ,,That might help ..:bouncy:

[Lee in Montreal]

BTW Why not try a 2235 and see by yourself ?

[more10]

Sell them and buy M2 monitors. You will also get a new car.

[DanMan]

Okay please let me revise into two easier questions:

1) If a 20 hz sound is produced in this system at the woofer location, will it come out as a 20hz sound through the front of this "paragon" speaker?

2) Does this system call for a 8 ohm or 16 ohm woofer?

okay 3) What other technical variable(s) should be considered for the woofer besides impedance in this application?

thanks all.

RIP Zilch and hope Lou Reed is playin for ya on a godsend system up there~!

[more10]

1) No

2) 16

I found the thread 150-4C or LE15A for Paragon (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?6433-150-4C-or-LE15A-for-Paragon). It might interest you.

[DanMan]

Lee mentioned a 2235, which I see plenty of on ebay. What would be the effects of using an 8 ohm woofer here?

[more10]

model fs qts qms qes vas eff pe xmax re le sd bi mms flux
le15a 20 0.21 5.5 0.22 736.2 2.6 100 4.06 8.8 2.2 0.088 22 97 0.9
2215a 20 0.21 5.5 0.22 736.2 2.6 100 4.06 5.7 1 0.090 22 97 0.9
2215b 20 0.21 5.5 0.22 736.2 2.5 100 4.06 8.8 2.2 0.088 22 97 0.9
2215h 20 0.21 5.5 0.22 736.2 2.6 100 4.06 5.7 1 0.090 22 97 0.09
2231a 16 0.21 5.5 0.22 736.2 1.4 100 5.08 6.3 1.4 0.088 21 151 1.2
2231h 16 0.21 5.5 0.22 736.2 1.4 100 5.08 6.3 1.4 0.088 21 151 1.2
2234h 23 0.22 2 0.25 458.7 2.1 150 8.38 6 1.2 0.090 20.5 105 1.2
2235h 20 0.25 2.5 0.28 458.7 1.3 150 8.38 6 1.2 0.090 20.5 155 1.2


It could be that the le15a is getting tiered. Then replacing it with a ferrite driver should get better results. Or you could have the le15a remagnitized. You can try to simulate different drivers in hornresp (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/119854-hornresp.html).

If you replace the crossover with an active you don´t need to worry about the impedance. If you keep the crossover you will have to make some adjustments to the crossover.

[Lee in Montreal]

Lee mentioned a 2235, which I see plenty of on ebay. What would be the effects of using an 8 ohm woofer here?

Anything but the stock drivers on stock crossovers is an experimentation. Change one element and the whole balance shears. So. It's not plug and play. The cabinet wasn't designed for 20Hz. But if you want to experiment, then see if other drivers will do. Be prepared for some major tweaking. And some active crossovers. And extra amp. And maybe you will get interesting results.

One thing worth considering is the small back volume. Most drivers require a huge volume to output a low frequency. You could use a a heavy-coned sub driver to get 20Hz out of such small volume, but it will not reach beyond 80Hz and will require a lot of watts.

As I said. If you want 20Hz, get a dedicated sub and keep the Paragons for what they are designed for.

[ivica]

Lee mentioned a 2235, which I see plenty of on ebay. What would be the effects of using an 8 ohm woofer here?
May be 2234H would be better replacement, but I would not expect anything lower then 30Hz (35Hz).


Regards
ivica

[DanMan]

Thanks y'all. I do have a sub on this system. But the room is VERY VERY bass hungry. Or should I say lacking?!

The room is really big (20'x20') and vaulted / angled ceiling (like a big horn) and there are no doors so its open to the entire first floor of the house.

The perfect position for mains is where the paragon(s) sit, and I'd really like an all-around beefier low end sound out of them.

There's a pair of 2225J's that end in 24 hours on the bay right now... whatch'all think about those in hear (here) ??

http://www.ebay.com/itm/130949875805?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648

[more10]

The 2225 is too expensive. You should be looking at 18" for the subs.

[Lee in Montreal]

What would the 2225 be used for?

[DanMan]

I'm wanting to replace the L15A's with much beefier woofers. So I did some searching for "JBL 15 inch woofer 16 ohm" and came up with the 2225J.

I am basically not seeing much in the searches that's beefier and 16 ohm... seems like those kinda speakers went out of style in the 1960's-1970's and I'm looking for something more from the 1980's-2000's as a replacement for the LE15A's.

Does that make sense? Am I barking (woof'ing) up the wrong tree??

[Lee in Montreal]

:banghead:

[DanMan]

thanks HJ! I didn't know about the 16ohm 2235. But I don't see many of those, except a post from 2011 where someone sells them infrequently for $700 a piece. That's a little out of the league I was hoping for... :crying:

[hjames]

I'm wanting to replace the L15A's with much beefier woofers. So I did some searching for "JBL 15 inch woofer 16 ohm" and came up with the 2225J.

I am basically not seeing much in the searches that's beefier and 16 ohm... seems like those kinda speakers went out of style in the 1960's-1970's and I'm looking for something more from the 1980's-2000's as a replacement for the LE15A's.

Does that make sense? Am I barking (woof'ing) up the wrong tree??

Yep - sounds like you are. The paragon is a very specific older system with very specific characteristics.
You are not going to be able to reengineer it into a sports car with nice low bass for modern music.
As Lee says, the laws of physics intrude - the box will only go so low.

Rather than butcher or hack on the system, its would be best to buy or build a sub to fill in the low frequencies you want -
heck - get a nice 18 sub and a powerful amp and pound away! I know you said you have a sub, but it sounds obvious
that whatever you have, its not what you need to do the job you want. Tell us a bit about your current sub ...

That way you are not stuck with trying to find cheap 16 ohm drivers that mostly don't exist (for cheap that is).

Oh, and I deleted my 2235 15inch comment because I didn't notice the 16 ohm requirement ...
that'd make it a deal breaker for me!

[DanMan]

Thanks again HJ. You bring up great points, which um, point, to my conundrum here with these speakers.

As I mentioned my goal for these Paragon(s) is to have them play "an all-around beefier low end sound". That's about it; I like the high end, it just the low end that I 'feel' is lacking. I already have a really beefy sub in the room; and I think the sub puts out enough bass. Its a Velodyne model (sorry JBL) HGS-18 (18" woofer, 1250 watts r.m.s. 3000 watt peaks - so it says in the marketing slick:) I think it's really a great sub with plenty of bass.



Maybe because I'm a purist, I'm wanting these Paragon(s) to output more low end. In my mind a 600-pound elephant-sized speaker box should be capable of more bass. I suppose my thinking is that a 40-50 year old woofer driver is going to have its (rather severe, comparatively) limitations and by switching it with something better (newer, bigger, beefier) it would produce lots more bass output.



But as I've probably mentioned on here, I'm a lowly civil engineer - I can design and technically comprehend everything that's made out of concrete i.e. if it sits perfectly still. Mechanical and Acoustical engineering really really, wait for it.... 'baffles' me :)



I'm curious as to how the box works (or doesn't work) for producing low end sounds (I thought a horn is a horn is a horn), but will not be able to understand much of the technical terminology (beyond Watts=Volts*Amps, and with some 'resistance' for good measure:).



Thanks a bunch for helping me to understand this conundrum.

Dan

[Maron Horonzakz]

Another woofer that will work in the PARAGON is the TAD TL 1602,,,,BUT it is expensive,,, I own Three PARAGONS,,,useing JBL 150-4c ,,,2215,,, and TAD TL-1602...I personally like the JBL 150- 4c,,, For its dynamic SLAM,, Not much music below 32hz anyway...Unless your into organ or helicopter effects.:bouncy:

[DanMan]

That 'sounds' great :) Yes actually I love organ music played through the Paragon, and especially at full volume. The sound is completely utterly enormous with good organ music!

So I took my L250's upstairs (not such an easy job! the handtruck helped) in a smaller room and they are musically fantastic there.

But yeah the Paragon(s) are now in their place in the Home Theater room and its mostly for movies but also surround sound SACD and DVD-A. The 4655 (with similar diameter drivers) is great as centers (front and rear) at 100db/watt compared to these Paragon(s) at 98db/watt. The rear L+R at 92db/watt L100T can not even keep up with twice the amplifier power and +10db on their individual volume setting. I'm hoping for another 4655 to replace the L100T and the whole system should average 99db/watt.

But therein lies part of the problem... for movies, when the sound gets up to around 115 db the shear volume starts to drown out the subs (two Velo's HGS models) a little bit. Ergo part reason I was looking for beefier woofer drivers in the mains.

[DanMan]

Hi everyone!

Well it's been about a decade since my original post. Dad just turned 94, mom is 87, and they're moving to a retirement home next month.

Since my first post on this Paragon, I did wind up upgrading the woofers per suggestions, added 6 more surround-sound speakers, a 7 foot tall tri-folded horn subwoofer, and swapped out all the amplifiers.

I followed y'alls recommendations here, and somewhat semi-annually applied the loosening brake fluid to the LE15A surrounds. Around 2016, I started to notice a few more dB loss in the bass region of the 'left' Paragon. Rather heartbroken upon disassembly, to find the surround was cracked ... but took it as a sign that it was time for upgrades all the way around.

At dad's house in Houston, the 'left' Paragon was placed closest to an external wall for ~25 years; while it was never directly in the sun, perhaps the delirious effects of Houston's climate took it's toll on the woofer?

Here you can see what appears like severe weathering & gray'ish discoloration of the cone on the left LE15A (w/cracked surround), next to the still near-perfect working order 'black' cone of the right LE15A. Check out even the cork gasket discoloration! :-O Or did these come in different colors??

89159

Not sure why I thought the LE15A were 16ohm woofers, they were stamped 8ohm. I upgraded both woofers with the 400W-continous 2225H. Extra one pictured here in case of emergencies.

89160

Thanks to y'all and eBay for 2 brand NOS 400W-continous 2225H.

89161

For surround sound speakers, I wanted similar components & specs to this Paragon: also 15" woofs & 1" titanium tweets, and near 100dB sensitivity. The only speakers already in my arsenal matching that were a couple of 4655.

I added 6 more JBL 4655's to the surround sound placements. Although these are more 'PA' or I've heard y'all refer to them as 'bowling alley' type speakers, they are wonderful for movie soundtracks!

Check out the 4655 playing the first notes from the movie "Edge of Tomorrow", playing all the way down to what 'looks' like a 10hz note (all directed to the center channel). Great start to a great movie!

https://youtu.be/U26hco5R09c

The 2225H woofers have a voracious appetite! Left and right Paragon each have their own power from 2 Adcom GFA-555-II bridged mono at 600wpc RMS with only 0.09%THD.

The left and right rear surround JBL 4655 are driven by a single Adcom GFA-5500 at 200wpc at a little higher 0.18% THD.

Both front center and rear center JBL 4655 are driven by a Yamaha MX-830 at 170wpc with a mere 0.003%THD.

I added 2 more JBL 4655 that sit in the corners behind each Paragon, pointing and tilting in the opposite direction, bouncing their sound off the front wall (as sort of 'echo' effect speakers) that reproduce the same signal as the Paragon mains driven by the 'A' channel of the RX-V3000 with 100wpc RMS at 0.02%THD. I use a dB meter with the preamp test tone to ensure the equivalent volume is produced on all speakers... but I have nothing that can keep up with the Paragon.

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Must admit this 'echo' effect speaker placement is just something I envisioned to try, because there's space for them in the corners behind the Paragon, and space should be filled with sound, hah. They provide just shy of a 1dB increase, but it creates a neat echo effect especially in Concert/Stadium/Arena modes on the preamp.

The subwoofer is also in a 3-way folded horn enclosure, dimensions are approximately 7 feet x 4 feet x 2 feet. The sub is a prototype designed by a 'Doc Brown' scientist who moved onto inventing small-mountain sized subterranean microwave field ovens <?> to loosen the black gold from shale deposits in the Canadian oilfield. It is a one-of-a-kind subwoofer that he designed for use in the downtown Austin nightclub/bar venues.

Sub pictured here with original faceplate next to a regular size 12" subwoofer for comparison.

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Continuing to next reply to finish story and add more pics...

[DanMan]

I tried a few other subwoofers for comparison sound tests.


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There, I fixed it :) Changed the nameplate to JBL.


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Sadly, the woofer is not JBL, but Sundown Audio, SA-15 4ohm 750W RMS.


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I also upgraded its Dayton Audio SPA 500-watt amplifier, which I pulled from the sub enclosure and remounted it in a separate box with a new Dayton SPA 1000-watt plate amplifier.


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Conjoined, the 2,900 watt RMS system is a little bit spectacular for movies. Musically, the 4655 show off some of their true (dis)colorization, but for heavy electronic-instrument music, like Frank Zappa's 5.1 Halloween DVD-A, it is insanely awesome.


Now with some bass pressure off the Paragon and onto the subs, the system delivers a bone-crushing experience at 105 in-seat decibels with zero distortion all night long for about 5 years now. The Adcom's all have clip warning lights which just barely illuminate on holidays.



Feels like I've maxed-out on the number of amplifiers & speakers & SPL for this here system. I'm still old-school digital coax or fiber optic cables for digital sound (when I'm not the Analog Kid), but those new HDMI-audio Atmos sound systems look promising to accommodate additional vertical placement of more & more JBL speakers. :)


Hope you enjoy.