JBL 1400 Array vs. Revel Salon 2 ..

[tom1040]

I am looking for views to those in the know regarding the following:

1) How large a difference in sensitivity....i.e., are the Revels much harder to drive than the Arrays? I know the spec. differences but would like to understand a bit better(perhaps I should do my own research:eek:);
2) Sound quality. To each his(her) own, I understand. However, since this is a general question for those who may have heard both, I inquire.
3) Space required for best sound. My wife and I are thinking of building a new home and I get to have my own dedicated room.:applaud: I need to plan this out.



There are a lot of variables to the above such as the actual room conditions and whathaveyous. The only constant is my gear which constists of the Marantz MA9S2 mono blocks/SC7S2 pre and the SA7S1 SACD. I sure wish the sensitivity wasn't so low...in fact, the other speaker I was thinking of is a Klipsch P-37........I like horns!


Not written in stone here since I love the Arrays. Thanks for your suggestions. Happy holidays:D

[BMWCCA]

57618 Nice choices!


FWIW
Stereophile shows:
JBL 1400 Array sensitivity: 89dB/2.83V/m
Revel Salon2 sensitivity: 86.4dB SPL/2.83V/m

[edgewound]

Look into the TAD Reference One. Best speaker system on the planet. TAD Reference Two is second. they might even support it after the sale.





I am looking for views to those in the know regarding the following:

1) How large a difference in sensitivity....i.e., are the Revels much harder to drive than the Arrays? I know the spec. differences but would like to understand a bit better(perhaps I should do my own research:eek:);
2) Sound quality. To each his(her) own, I understand. However, since this is a general question for those who may have heard both, I inquire.
3) Space required for best sound. My wife and I are thinking of building a new home and I get to have my own dedicated room.:applaud: I need to plan this out.



There are a lot of variables to the above such as the actual room conditions and whathaveyous. The only constant is my gear which constists of the Marantz MA9S2 mono blocks/SC7S2 pre and the SA7S1 SACD. I sure wish the sensitivity wasn't so low...in fact, the other speaker I was thinking of is a Klipsch P-37........I like horns!


Not written in stone here since I love the Arrays. Thanks for your suggestions. Happy holidays:D

[tom1040]

Look into the TAD Reference One. Best speaker system on the planet. TAD Reference Two is second. they might even support it after the sale.


TAD Reference One

SPECS & PRICINGType: three-way floorstanding loudspeaker in a vented cabinet
Driver complement: two 10" woofers, one 6.5"/1.375" concentric midrange/tweeter
Frequency response: 21hz–100khz -10db (-3db point is 27hz)
Crossover frequencies: 250hz and 2khz
Sensitivity: 90db (2.83v at 1m)
Maximum SPL: 115db
Nominal impedance: 4 ohms (4.1 ohms minimum)
Dimensions: 21.75" x 51" x 27"
Weight: 330 lbs. each, net
Price: $78,000 per pair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!:blink::crying::eek::confused::(


I need $ to build the house..........waayyy too rich for my blood, although I expect that they are superb speakers. Perhaps after that lotto win that is coming my way...:D:D

As per my usual way of buying gear, the Revels are used and about 50% retail.

[Maron Horonzakz]

EDGEWOUND,,,HAS THE DIMINISHING SUPPLY OF JBL AND TAD PARTS HURT YOUR REPAIR BUSINESS? :crying:

[martin_wu99]

I am looking for views to those in the know regarding the following:

1) How large a difference in sensitivity....i.e., are the Revels much harder to drive than the Arrays? I know the spec. differences but would like to understand a bit better(perhaps I should do my own research:eek:);
2) Sound quality. To each his(her) own, I understand. However, since this is a general question for those who may have heard both, I inquire.
3) Space required for best sound. My wife and I are thinking of building a new home and I get to have my own dedicated room.:applaud: I need to plan this out.



There are a lot of variables to the above such as the actual room conditions and whathaveyous. The only constant is my gear which constists of the Marantz MA9S2 mono blocks/SC7S2 pre and the SA7S1 SACD. I sure wish the sensitivity wasn't so low...in fact, the other speaker I was thinking of is a Klipsch P-37........I like horns!


Not written in stone here since I love the Arrays. Thanks for your suggestions. Happy holidays:D
Hi tom
Somebody around me think that REVEL can only give out noise but not music:banghead:
There are so many HIEND brand to select:D

[Titanium Dome]

Some members here have heard both in the same room, some of us more than once. My personal preference would be the Revel Ultima2 Salon. The only thing that kept me from buying a pair was the unexpected opportunity to get JBL K2 S9900s, which I liked even better. The K2s are more efficient than either the 1400 Array or the Salon.

Still, there are days when I long for the Salon. When given enough power, they are magnificent. I don't know enough about the Marantz mono blocks, but my guess is they'd have enough guts, depending on the room.

I would want the Salon before the JBL Everest DD66000.

[Mr. Widget]

I would want the Salon before the JBL Everest DD66000.You're just biased by that dome thing. ;)

You know, there are reasons why there are so many speakers available... the main one being there are so many listeners.

I've listened to all of the speakers listed on this thread many, many times. They are all exceptional.

Between the 1400 Array and the Revel, I would and did pick the the Array. The Revel is excellent, but I find it boring... the Everest and to a slightly lesser degree the K2-S9900 have that dynamics thing that the old Altecs and other monster vintage speakers have. For many of us that is more important than absolute neutrality... not that these new top JBL are not amazingly neutral too.


Widget

[tom1040]

Dynamics. I have a good idea(S/2600)what you are referring to. I agree. As I indicated, this is not a done deal by any means. I would love to hear the Everest and K2's. I suspect that the dynamics of those systems are great. I guess it boils down to what type of sound you like....that said, I think the Arrays sound a bit dynamic and a bit on the "HIFI' sound a lot of manufacturers think the public(2%'ers)want. Perhaps it has to do with the sensitivity factor that 'dynamic' speakers seem to have(at least the ones I have encountered). I listened to a pair of Magico speakers a while back that retailed for $89K and I preferred the Arrays over them by a pretty good margin.

[4313B]

You're just biased by that dome thing. ;)It could be a space issue too. 4350, 4355, 4435, Everest II - those dual horizontal fifteen-inch systems at 9 to 10 cubic feet take up a bunch of room.
The Revel is excellent, but I find it boring... the Everest and to a slightly lesser degree the K2-S9900 have that dynamics thing that the old Altecs and other monster vintage speakers have. For many of us that is more important than absolute neutrality...That pretty much sums it up for me.
not that these new top JBL are not amazingly neutral too.I wonder how much influence Sean Olive's research has had with respect to the voicing of the Array, K2 and Everest Series.

[Titanium Dome]

You're just biased by that dome thing. ;)

You know, there are reasons why there are so many speakers available... the main one being there are so many listeners.

I've listened to all of the speakers listed on this thread many, many times. They are all exceptional.


Widget


Yes, I am biased. Even Greg Timbers said I had the right moniker:


It is fitting that Titanium Dome has chosen that moniker as I have never seen more Domes assembled in one location at one time. Granted they were all not titanium, but they were domes all the same and there were herds of them all over the house.

Agreed that they're all exceptional; not so sure what you're saying in that middle sentence? Here's my interpretation:

"You know, there are reasons why there are so many speakers available in Dome's home... the main one being there are so many listeners in his head." :screwy:



Before someone freaks out, yes, I really do understand what he's saying. I was just having some fun. M'kay?

[Titanium Dome]

I listened to a pair of Magico speakers a while back that retailed for $89K and I preferred the Arrays over them by a pretty good margin.

I wholeheartedly agree with that! :yes:

[Titanium Dome]

It could be a space issue too. 4350, 4355, 4435, Everest II - those dual horizontal fifteen-inch systems at 9 to 10 cubic feet take up a bunch of room.That pretty much sums it up for me.I wonder how much influence Sean Olive's research has had with respect to the voicing of the Array, K2 and Everest Series.

Bingo! Both space and the room. I have a room that's good enough, but it doesn't have enough space. I have a space that's big enough, but it's not a good enough room, and I could never get it good enough without violating my nonproliferation agreement (again) with my partner. I'm not interested in another "Cold War." :baby:

The Revels are much more flexible in that regard. They'll work in more spaces in more places. I would have written "more spaces in more rooms," but it didn't have that nice ring to it.

As for the Olive influence on the voicing, probably more than the designer wanted but less than the researcher hoped. The only indirect reference I've ever heard to that issue is from one of the key non-JBL guys at Northridge whose designs seem to align much more closely to Olive's work. When asked about the Everest DD66000: "They really sound pretty good... for a horn."

[4313B]

"They really sound pretty good... for a horn.":rotfl: Yeah, I hear what they're saying.

I'm quite happy with what G.T. has done with the 1400 Array, K2's and the Everest II though.

I've been told on numerous occasions that Revel really is supposed to be the premier loudspeaker brand from Harman. But then these JBL Projects keep coming up. :)

[Dave_72]

:rotfl: Yeah, I hear what they're saying.

I'm quite happy with what G.T. has done with the 1400 Array, K2's and the Everest II though.

I've been told on numerous occasions that Revel really is supposed to be the premier loudspeaker brand from Harman. But then these JBL Projects keep coming up. :)

Did Timbers design the S4700s too?

[edgewound]

Y
Between the 1400 Array and the Revel, I would and did pick the the Array. The Revel is excellent, but I find it boring...
Widget

The focus of the Revel is not. There is a severe, smeared time delay in the mid-high transition. For a system that is $22K+, that is simply unacceptable. They should take some money out of the cabinet's finish and apply it to the acoustics/mechanics/time alignment.

There is a new model at the similar price point at another 3 initial competitor that simply blows it away.

[Valentin]

There is a severe, smeared time delay in the mid-high transition


severe come on :blink:

[4313B]

Did Timbers design the S4700s too?Yep. That's why it sounds good.

Way better than the sum of its parts? - I've heard some people having "problems" with JBL using lower tier drivers in a $20k per pair system... Of course they haven't had any actual face time with it. :screwy:

[Dave_72]

Yep. That's why it sounds good.

Way better than the sum of its parts? - I've heard some people having "problems" with JBL using lower tier drivers in a $20k per pair system... Of course they haven't had any actual face time with it. :screwy:

Cool, thanks. Yeah...if it had similar or exact drivers as the K2, then the price would be higher, I suppose. So far, they're sounding good...better and better each day. Dynamic range and frequency response has expanded for one thing. When first set up they were pretty dull and "shouty" sounding. I didn't freak out about it though, I remained cool and patient. So, I'll continue to wait it out...

[edgewound]

There is a severe, smeared time delay in the mid-high transition


severe come on :blink:

Compared to the reference? Yes...it was clearly audible. I quizzed my wife about what she heard...and concurred.

[Robh3606]

Compared to the reference?

What systems are you talking about, comparing??

Rob

[edgewound]

What systems are you talking about, comparing??

Rob

JBL K2 and TAD Reference One. TAD now has a downsized less expensive Evo One based on the Reference One at $24k/pair retail.

Geometry/crossover selection/topography in the critical midband makes a big difference with respect to resolution and imaging.

Now...with that said...I'm simply giving my listening impression. YMMV.;)

[Valentin]

So you had a chance to hear de Revel Salons and the TAD evolution one side by side same room and program

and you and your wife percived a severe, smeared time delay in the mid-high transition.

While the dual concentric driver is certanly a difrent aproach with certian advantages and spectral signature (type dispersion) the Revel Salons do not have a severe mid high integration problem. simply a difrent spectral signature

my 2 hz

[edgewound]

So you had a chance to hear de Revel Salons and the TAD evolution one side by side same room and program

and you and your wife percived a severe, smeared time delay in the mid-high transition.

While the dual concentric driver is certanly a difrent aproach with certian advantages and spectral signature (type dispersion) the Revel Salons do not have a severe mid high integration problem. simply a difrent spectral signature

my 2 hz

A "different spectral signature" is clearly an example of time smearing and differential in imaging. We heard the K2 and the Revel within 5 minutes of each other in Harman's demo facility at CES. The K2 won hands down. TAD has been best in my ears for the last decade. One of the finest bargains in audio in terms of soundstage and image have been the Thiel CS3.7...RIP Jim Thiel. Great products and engineering.

The design of the Revel is cause for some...what I perceived as... secondary reflections off the lower drive units' cones...especially when seated at lower than mid-tweeter level. Neither the K2 nor the TAD had this same "character". It was bothersome and very distracting. Sorry...they just don't agree with me and my perception of what great speakers do.

[Robh3606]

Thanks Edge

I was having trouble following the conversation.

Rob:)

[Valentin]

Edge
I constantly hear the K2 9900 and the ultima Studio and Gem Speakers

and have alsow heard them at harman

i simply dont agree with your perseption

[4313B]

Well Revel might make "truly the World's Finest Loudspeakers" but at least they have the right loudspeakers shown on their website.

http://www.harmanluxuryaudio.com/

[Mr. Widget]

Edge
I constantly hear the K2 9900 and the ultima Studio and Gem Speakers

and have alsow heard them at harman

i simply dont agree with your perseptionI have heard all of these speakers quite a lot myself, and while I might think the TAD is probably better, I can't say so as definitively as Edge. I haven't had the opportunity to hear the TADs under my own control. Andrew Jones always puts on a fabulous demonstration and the TADs always sound fabulous, but if I could trade my Everests across the table for the TADs, I am not 100% certain that I would prefer them. I probably would, but I can't be certain. The TADs are also far more expensive that any of these others. I haven't heard the lesser priced TADs so I couldn't comment on them.

As for time smearing? Your ears are far more advanced than mine. I certainly can't pinpoint that as a problem.


Widget

[edgewound]

We all have opinions on all sorts of stuff....including speakers. There is no definitive answer for everyone.

Yeah...The TADs cost a boatload o' cash....and so do the Everests...and so do the Revels...and so do the new TAD Evo One.

Audio is a funny industry...and getting funnier all the time. How many people here would not flinch at droppping $25k, $50k, $75k, $100k on speakers..let alone $200k-$300k on an audio system?

Not too many, I bet.

[Robh3606]

Flinch?? I would have a freaking heart attack!!

Rob:)

[4313B]

How many people here would not flinch at droppping $25k, $50k, $75k, $100k on speakers..let alone $200k-$300k on an audio system?

Not too many, I bet.That'd be a wee bit self-indulgent don't you think?

[Valentin]

Well Revel might make "truly the World's Finest Loudspeakers" but at least they have the right loudspeakers shown on their website.

http://www.harmanluxuryaudio.com/

:applaud:

[Titanium Dome]

We all have opinions on all sorts of stuff....including speakers. There is no definitive answer for everyone.

Yeah...The TADs cost a boatload o' cash....and so do the Everests...and so do the Revels...and so do the new TAD Evo One.

Audio is a funny industry...and getting funnier all the time. How many people here would not flinch at droppping $25k, $50k, $75k, $100k on speakers..let alone $200k-$300k on an audio system?

Not too many, I bet.


You're essentially correct on that last point, but it's largely hypothetical isn't it? There are some people here who've spent tens of thousands on their systems. A very few did so without flinching, and the others had varying degrees of pain, fear, and doubt in the process, followed by huge bouts of second-guessing. Many had no idea they were gong to spend that kind of money until they'd been swept away by the opportunity.

[Mr. Widget]

We have ventured far from a comparison between the 1400 Array and the Revel Salon 2, but...

I agree with Dome about how easily many of us have drifted into quite outrageously expensive systems. In my case I have done this mostly by trade and like many here by collecting pieces over the years. That said, I don't really think about my stereo in terms of the dollar amount. I think about my audio systems in terms of the joy they bring me when I am playing my favorite music.


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

We have ventured far from a comparison between the 1400 Array and the Revel Salon 2, but... I agree with Dome about how easily many of us have drifted into quite outrageously expensive systems. In my case I have done this mostly by trade and like many here by collecting pieces over the years. That said, I don't really think about my stereo in terms of the dollar amount. I think about my audio systems in terms of the joy they bring me when I am playing my favorite music.WidgetSaid the guy who has both a pair of Everest II DD66000s and 1400 Arrays. :p That's about $80k retail, isn't it? I know you could've had some Revels, too, but as you say, they're not to your liking. (See, back on thread.)

Plus aren't there some JC1 mono blocks in that mix, too? :eek: Dude, you may be the King.

[Mr. Widget]

Dude, you may be the King.Yeah, and I look just like that too. :rotfl:


Widget

[DavidF]

We have ventured far from a comparison between the 1400 Array and the Revel Salon 2, but...

I agree with Dome about how easily many of us have drifted into quite outrageously expensive systems. In my case I have done this mostly by trade and like many here by collecting pieces over the years. That said, I don't really think about my stereo in terms of the dollar amount. I think about my audio systems in terms of the joy they bring me when I am playing my favorite music.


Widget

My wife and I were watching one of those make over programs on Home Garden TV the other day. I was watching knowing that much of what was happening on this program was resonating in my wife’s mind. We havetwo bathrooms much in need of updating. Well, sure the mods were impressive with marble sink tops and a bathtub that was a design statement. This all in a fairly modest home. Total cost…$42,000. All for one small room used occasionally in the home.

So, point is substitute “bathroom” in TiDome’s assessment above for “systems” and you get some context. I could not fathom spending so much on a room I consider something just above a utility room in the home. My wife, however, could easily justify spending that much for a bit of sanctuary in her day.

As to relevance I go back to my impression of the two systems Widget and associates demonstrated back in 2010.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?28824-Everest-II-Audition/page5

[Titanium Dome]

My wife and I were watching one of those makeoverprograms on Home Garden TV the other day. I was watching knowing that much ofwhat was happening on this program was resonating in my wife’s mind. We havetwo bathrooms much in need of updating. Well, sure the mods were impressive with marble sink tops and a bathtub that was a design statement. This all in a fairly modest home. Total cost…$42,000. All for one small room used occasionally in the home.

So, point is substitute “bathroom” in TiDome’s assessmentabove for “systems” and you get some context. I could not fathom spending so much on a room I consider something just above a utility room in the home. My wife, however, could easily justify spending that much for a bit of sanctuary in her day.

As to relevance I go back to my impression of the two systems Widget and associates demonstrated back in 2010.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?28824-Everest-II-Audition/page5

Dang that's some good reading! :thmbsup: It's great to see Zilch again!

How prescient is that? Widget's got 1400 Arrays and Everest II 66000s, and I've got K2 S9900s, more or less as a direct result. And grumpy's got a Mark Levinson pre. A lot of the old goats stepped up after that.

[Robh3606]

A lot of the old goats stepped up after that.


Baaahaaahaahhh

Rob:)

[jblsound]

I can say both my son and I have heard both the Salon2 and EverestII. Unfortunately, not in the same country or even same year, much less same room, 5 minutes apart.
The Revels in SF in '09 and the EverestII in Japan in '10.
But we both came to the same conclusion: In the rooms we heard these speakers, the Revel Salon2 was the hands down winner.
The only things in the Revel room were a pair of Salons, pair of Gem2, Voice2, sub and the gear at the back. And perfectly setup!!

The day we walked into the room in Fukuoka, Japan, we could not believe what we were seeing: $60K worth of speaker setup in a room, that at best, would be described as a JBL storage room!! JBLs all along the side walls, a small pair of speakers on stands in front of the Everest. And all in a room way too small. And I'm certain, smaller than the Revel room.

At best we could only get a slight taste as to how those Everest should sound. A complete disappointment!

[4313B]

I think Don had a similar story to tell. I think he heard the Everests for the first time in a "bad" room but the second time in a "good" room so the story ended on a positive note.

[audiomagnate]

I heard both the 1400 and the Revel Salon at the same show (CES 2011) with the same Harman mix tape (Boz Scags, Frank Sinatra etc.) but in different rooms and different systems. I preferred the JBLs for their dynamics and realism, but I was very impressed with the Salons. For what you can get them for now the 1400s are a steal, IMO. The 1400s can do something very few speakers can do; make it sound like the performers are actually in the room. The Revels didn't do that for me, but the room they were in was pretty crowded, while I got plenty of alone time in the far less popular 1400 room.