Drew Daniels' ANCIENT AUDIOPHILE system

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http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/audiophile.htm I've been very blessed to land most of the parts in decent shape to build this system. I realize the time involved is deep and need advice along the way. If not a faithful production, then something he would have approved of. The sub cabs and any wood working in general is going to be the first hurdle for me. I was looking at used SR4719X cabs and thought that it could move this forward. I'm planning on reconing 4x 2245 baskets to rest in these. What I noticed right off is the cabinet volume. Daniels' cabs should have a volume of ~23 ft3 vs. the ~20 ft3 for the 4719x. Is this cabinet idea way off or..... http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/SR-X Series/SR4719X.pdf (http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/SR-X%20Series/SR4719X.pdf)

[more10]

I rebuilt a pair of srx cabs. I don't know if they where built in sweden or in us. But they where really badly built. Low quality plywood. Not properly braced. The bracing was glued to the plywood, and had caused the plywood to delaminate. The back corners of the cabinet was held together with carpet only.

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That's not good at all. I was reading that birch ply was involved in the construction. I was expecting something that could maybe use a brace here and there. Undoubtedly re-tuning would be involved.
There is no way I'm installing the recones in something described like that.

[more10]

Well, mine could be locally built. Maybe someone else here has experience with american built cabinets.

[speakerdave]

That's a challenging build. I would suggest you make a separate cabinet for each subwoofer using the Greg Timbers design from the '80's Audio Magazine article. For home use you only need two. If you build a 20 cu ft cabinet it will be very big and heavy. You will need to hire roadies.

[grey]

That's a challenging build. I would suggest you make a separate cabinet for each subwoofer using the Greg Timbers design from the '80's Audio Magazine article. For home use you only need two. If you build a 20 cu ft cabinet it will be very big and heavy. You will need to hire roadies.

It's been challenging just to get this far yet enjoyable all the way. Your thoughts are perfectly sane and I agree with you. I must also realize that this system doesn't completely follow sanity. I totally forgot about the 12 ft3 cabinet in that article. Excellent idea if that's what you had in mind. Two of those would work perfectly for now. Plans are for a bigger room (~35x25 ft. with rising ceiling) and it would be easy to scale.

I'm still curios if the 4719x would be reasonable if there are is a variant in better quality.

[speakerdave]

That's a nice big room. I am curious about what elements you have in hand and what the intended use is.

[grey]

This is what's here and dedicated to the project.

[4] 2245H 18" subwoofer (baskets)
[2] 2220H 15" midbass drivers
[2] 2123H 10" midrange drivers
[2] 2445 4" compression drivers w/2452-SL phrams
[2] 2397 Smith horns
[2] 2405 Diffraction tweeters w/new phrams
[1] Marchand XM-44 4 way crossover


A mix of decent amplifiers that could be traded in favor a better fit. The largest being a com-tech 1600.
A DSP unit to manage the subwoofers.

Intended use if the room?
Read, study, relax, listen, enjoy.....just what I do now.

[Lee in Montreal]

As much as I recognize the 2245 as being a superb infrabass driver, I find it lacks the roundness and kick of a midbass driver such as a 2220 or 2225. I don't think the 2245 performs "well" around 80-120Hz, at least not for the sound I particularly look for. That list above is not far from what I would use for a powerfull home system. My personal set-up would be as follows

2245 to 2225 (20Hz-50Hz)
2225 to 2441/2350 horn (50Hz-600Hz)
2441/2350 horn to 2405 slot tweeter (600Hz-8Khz)
2405 slot tweeter (8Khz- 20Khz)

Nonetheless, I don't know if the 2225 can go as high as 1Khz if matched to a 2387 horn. I have both 2397 and 2350 horns and they have their own caracteristics. The 2350 horn is very dynamic and goes lower. The 2397 is transparent but doesn't go too low. I love trumpet and brass on a 2350. :eek:

[Robh3606]

If it were me I would use subs below 80Hz or so. Use an E-145 as my midbase up to about 300Hz with a 2123 midrange up to about 1.5K. Up top the flavor you like best. I am partial to the Be drivers. That's my version of it scalled down of course. The original must have been a killer!Rob:)

[Mannermusic]

If it were me I would use subs below 80Hz or so. Use an E-145 as my midbase up to about 300Hz with a 2123 midrange up to about 1.5K. Up top the flavor you like best. I am partial to the Be drivers. That's my version of it scalled down of course. The original must have been a killer!

Rob:)

It was! I heard it back in the 80s on a visit to Disney. It was big and open, utterly effortless. The Saturn V launch shook the floor. But, yeah, you gotta use the high efficiency 15 to get anything near that level of performance. With the quad woofers Drew was using (per side!) the whole rig had to be operating at 100 spl. He was the ultimate believer of high efficiency for max fidelity. Mike

[4313B]

If it were me I would use subs below 80Hz or so. Use an E-145 as my midbase up to about 300Hz with a 2123 midrange up to about 1.5K. Up top the flavor you like best. I am partial to the Be drivers. That's my version of it scalled down of course. The original must have been a killer!Rob:)That's the 100 x 100 waveguide isn't it Rob? 2435 bolted on back? I'm thinking of trying one with a 2450SL bolted on back just to see if it can give a stock SAM1HF a run for the money.

[Robh3606]

That's the 100 x 100 waveguide isn't it Rob? 2435 bolted on back?


Hello 4313B

Good Eye! It's a PTH1010 with a 2435. I always wondered what a 2452SL would sound like on one.

Rob:)

[4313B]

Hello 4313B

Good Eye! It's a PTH1010 with a 2435. I always wondered what a 2452SL would sound like on one.

Rob:)I never followed Zilch's work on any of the waveguides so I don't know if the 2452H-SL or 2450SL would be the better bet. I suspect the 2450SL would be if only because the 476Be measures so damn well on one.

I wouldn't think the waveguide and 2452H-SL or 2450SL would be that much more expensive than a 2397/2441/2405 combination.

[pos]

I never followed Zilch's work on any of the waveguides so I don't know if the 2452H-SL or 2450SL would be the better bet.
2450SL without a doubt! (tested on your PT-F95)

I would like to try a square PT also, as I feel the slow rise in vertical directivity of the rectangular one is difficult to handle.
Maybe the rectangular 100x100 would be interesting if mounted sideway!

[speakerdave]

This is what's here and dedicated to the project.

[4] 2245H 18" subwoofer (baskets)
[2] 2220H 15" midbass drivers
[2] 2123H 10" midrange drivers
[2] 2445 4" compression drivers w/2452-SL phrams
[2] 2397 Smith horns
[2] 2405 Diffraction tweeters w/new phrams
[1] Marchand XM-44 4 way crossover


A mix of decent amplifiers that could be traded in favor a better fit. The largest being a com-tech 1600.
A DSP unit to manage the subwoofers.

Intended use if the room?
Read, study, relax, listen, enjoy.....just what I do now.

You left out 'Have a blast,' or is that off the record?

It does sound like fun. Some of the suggested alternates are good; Drew Daniels's design was done more than twenty years ago, I think. Better options in some frequency bands have come along, but still, the drivers you have are more than satisfactory. Are you going to have Marchand tailor the crossover output to compensate for driver non-linearities?

[speakerdave]

It was! I heard it back in the 80s on a visit to Disney. It was big and open, utterly effortless. The Saturn V launch shook the floor. But, yeah, you gotta use the high efficiency 15 to get anything near that level of performance. With the quad woofers Drew was using (per side!) the whole rig had to be operating at 100 spl. He was the ultimate believer of high efficiency for max fidelity. Mike

I heard it too. I was ready to walk in the other direction, because I usually cannot abide SR systems, but it was quite listenable.

It should be noted those eight woofers were outside.

[speakerdave]

. . . . Maybe the rectangular 100x100 would be interesting if mounted sideway!


:)Should be at least as interesting.

[speakerdave]

As much as I recognize the 2245 as being a superb infrabass driver, I find it lacks the roundness and kick of a midbass driver such as a 2220 or 2225 . . . .


I have to agree with this.

[grey]

You left out 'Have a blast,' or is that off the record?

It does sound like fun. Some of the suggested alternates are good; Drew Daniels's design was done more than twenty years ago, I think. Better options in some frequency bands have come along, but still, the drivers you have are more than satisfactory. Are you going to have Marchand tailor the crossover output to compensate for driver non-linearities?

I will be doing the measurements and crossover configuration. I have a good understanding of how to configure it per recommendations. Well, at least good enough to not cook a driver:eek:. Setting this up is part of the fun. Good sound early on may be a different story.

This all started with thoughts of a modified 4345 configuration and the idea keeps growing. Maybe you can see the relation? I've never heard a big 4-way monitor, so I will surely be in for a an experience.

So many ways to do this. The E-145 looks like an excellent driver. Although less sensitive than the 2220, it reads that it would handle that range very well. The suggestions on combos are noted and appreciated. Keep them coming. More tinkering and swapping down the road is almost a guarantee. For the short term I'm sticking with the current parts as a viable plan to get it up and running.

The 4719x cabinets gone, so not an option now. What could be wrong with 12 ft3 diy cabs.:dont-know:

[frank23]

Hello 4313B

Good Eye! It's a PTH1010 with a 2435. I always wondered what a 2452SL would sound like on one.

Rob:)

I sold my pth1010+2435 combination about 2 years ago. I could not get it to sound as sweet as the 2344+2420.

[Robh3606]

I sold my pth1010+2435 combination about 2 years ago. I could not get it to sound as sweet as the 2344+2420.

Well whatever you like is what matters. Once I got the 2435's I never looked back.

Rob:)

[mmc8180]

I actually built the system per his plans about 4-5 years ago (two columns and 4 subwoofer boxes). I tracked Drew down when I was well underway and discussed some details of his design and possible changes. He mentioned he personally knew of only one other person that had built them. He urged me to faithfully stick to his design, and I did except for a few modifications that he didn't have an issue with. Yes he was about high efficiency in this design, but above all his main motivation was achieving very low distortion

[svollmer]

I actually built the system per his plans about 4-5 years ago (two columns and 4 subwoofer boxes). I tracked Drew down when I was well underway and discussed some details of his design and possible changes. He mentioned he personally knew of only one other person that had built them. He urged me to faithfully stick to his design, and I did except for a few modifications that he didn't have an issue with. Yes he was about high efficiency in this design, but above all his main motivation was achieving very low distortion

Got any pictures? We'd love to see them!

[mmc8180]

5700757006


The JBL components are:
2405
2450
2382a
2012
2220
2242

The biggest differences with Drews design are the 2405's and double thickness oak plywood vs. mdf

You probably recognize Altec A-7 components and Klipschorns. There are 6 other subwoofers as well.

The amps were selected for low distortion and rated power that would be twice that of the respective speakers rated power per Drew's recommendation. Analog active crossovers, equalizers and time delays. Real time analyzer to measure response

I tend to collect and not let things go. Nothing like massive excess :)






Got any pictures? We'd love to see them!

[hjames]

Wow - thanks so much for sharing the pix - very cool!!





5700757006


The biggest differences with Drew's design are the 2405's and double thickness oak plywood vs. mdf

I tend to collect and not let things go. Nothing like massive excess :)

[Don Mascali]

Too much, is just right...

Beautiful work.

[yggdrasil]

That's a serious system!



I tend to collect and not let things go.


Yeah, selling off stuff just doesn't get my heart pumping either.

Johnny

[Baron030]

Holly Crap!!! Does that look nice!!!
I wish I had the room for the sub-woofers.
I was forced to build only the “satellite” speakers of the Drew Daniel’s ANCIENT AUDIOPHILE system.
But, you were able build the whole shebang.
Congratulations!

Baron030:)

[1audiohack]

That's freakin' awesome!!!

I have collected every single piece and part to build this system and only need dedicate the time.

Thanks for sharing,
Barry.

[badman]

Sweet bejeebus that's a heck of a rig!

Color me impressed.

[svollmer]

Un Be Leavable!! And I mean that in the best way!!!! :applaud:

Thanks for the pictures. I'm going to print them out and show them to my speakers and tell them they should be ashamed of themselves! :rotfl:

[mmc8180]

I am relieved to see there are some of you with my sickness :D:D:D. I know I don't have to tell this forum the amount of work involved. It took about 3-4 years of acquiring parts and tools, planning, building, and assembling the room. The wiring was massive - I ended up assembling my own component interconnect wiring.

Drew steered me into trying to acquire an obsolete sound field manipulation device called an AEC 1000. Back in the day (mid 90's I believe) these devices could cost $10,000. People who owned them were absoluetly astounded at the sound results from these devices. It used radar technology to cancel out reflections and other abnormalities in the sound field of the room. I actually found one, acquired the software, but was missing a critical part - a pc card that would interface the device with a computer for setup. I tracked down old distributors, salesmen and even the inventor of the AEC device and no one could help me....

The soundfield is unbelieveably huge, uniform and focused. It was fantastically fun to plan, build, setup and above all listen. If you have the time, space, and of course money, you won't be sorry.

If I had to do it all over again, I might consider DSP units like Ashly's 24.24m to simplfy the wiring and minimize separate electronic components, and would mount the rack in another room (noisy fans of high power amps).

Wait - I still may do that :crying:

[grey]

I am relieved to see there are some of you with my sickness :D:D:D. I know I don't have to tell this forum the amount of work involved. It took about 3-4 years of acquiring parts and tools, planning, building, and assembling the room. The wiring was massive - I ended up assembling my own component interconnect wiring.

Drew steered me into trying to acquire an obsolete sound field manipulation device called an AEC 1000. Back in the day (mid 90's I believe) these devices could cost $10,000. People who owned them were absoluetly astounded at the sound results from these devices. It used radar technology to cancel out reflections and other abnormalities in the sound field of the room. I actually found one, acquired the software, but was missing a critical part - a pc card that would interface the device with a computer for setup. I tracked down old distributors, salesmen and even the inventor of the AEC device and no one could help me....

The soundfield is unbelieveably huge, uniform and focused. It was fantastically fun to plan, build, setup and above all listen. If you have the time, space, and of course money, you won't be sorry.

If I had to do it all over again, I might consider DSP units like Ashly's 24.24m to simplfy the wiring and minimize separate electronic components, and would mount the rack in another room (noisy fans of high power amps).

Wait - I still may do that :crying:

Now we're talking! Excellent work! No apparent shortcuts in that system. Sounds like the wait was worth it. I've been into this a year already.
Your system looks really close to Drew's later plans. http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/system.htm
Can I ask what you're using for amplifiers?

The current plans will have neutrik connectors to cut down on wiring madness.
I'm also looking at a miniDSP. It may be capable of running the entire system. I've looked at Lake, DBX and others. They get pricey!


A local forum member helped out with some 4645 cabinets. This will help move things along a great deal with minor compromise.

[spkrman57]

I should be able to hear it in Ohio here when you turn it up!

If you ever host a listening party I think I could drive a few hours to hear a "one of a kind" speaker system!

It's got to sound awesome with all that efficiency. And I'm a big fan of efficient speakers!

Regards, Ron

[speakerdave]

Is the candle your SPL meter?

[1audiohack]

Is the candle your SPL meter?

Hot wax spatter at the listening position works as a level warning in the event your eyes are closed.

[speakerdave]

Yeah, like that. I was thinking, when it's blown out that's probably loud enough.

[grey]

I bought another complete 4645 cabinet from out of state. It arrived with some shipping dings, but easy items to deal with.

The 2245h is an issue however. The cone assembly looks fresh and perfect. The DCR checks ok.
The voice coil is pinched in the gap from a shifted motor assembly. Undoubtedly there was some rough handling. What a shame. Such a great driver.

What the process for the repair and what are my options?
What would roughly be the repair price at a min. and max?

[grey]

This is still moving along. Just lack two 2245H recones for all of the major parts to be here.

These have been on my wish list for some time and I now have a pair.
http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/45/200/1083/TM-1201/page.html
This could change things up.

[grey]

Hi All. I have a few updates and questions.

Rob's post has me intrigued with the E145 as a potential midbass driver. They can easily run down to 80Hz which is a much better crossover point for multiple reasons.
The sensitivity of these is still bothering me at -2dB from the rest of the drivers. I've considered doubling them up or putting them in a hypex horn.
Granted that the 2245H array is 98dB. I have a notion that mutual coupling and room gain will bring them up a bit. What are your thoughts on the E145 arrangement?


On another note I've managed to gather a few more parts to make this happen. All four 2245H drivers are ready to go. Rudy K. hooked me up with a few empty 4645 cabinets. Thanks Rudy!

I've decided to go with the UREI 6200 series of amplifiers. This is what I've managed to pick up:
1) 6215 - cooked a bit and on the bench currently
2) 6260 - all good
2) 6290 - one of these is down one channel with blown 12A fuse. It's going on the bench next and hopefully it does not involve replacing transistors.

All of them will be refreshed with new small caps and trimmers.

I've done the calculations for dedicated circuits on one possible driver arrangement. There is a potential to pull ~50A:eek:

[maxserg]

The e145 are about 97db efficient isn't it? With two, you'd get more than the 98db target! Don't need to put them in a horn enclosure... ;)

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The E145 is advertised at 98dB. Everything else above it is advertised at 100dB 1w/1m min. making this the target.

Below 80Hz should not need any additional work as stated above. That could be easily addressed down the road if necessary.
The drivers above 80Hz would be much more difficult to reconfigure.
Drew spec'd the 2220H driven up to 500Hz. The E145>TAD TM1201 should probably work out better at a ~280Hz-300Hz crossover point.
Westlake is using the TAD down to 200Hz.


I'm leaning towards doubling the E145 myself. It may be the safest approach to get it right the first time.
The horn idea is more of a curiosity as it's seemingly difficult to get an expected result. Does Hornresp give any decent predictions in hypex design?

[grey]

I've found some cabaret cabinets that only had the E145 in them and that prompted me to start working on this again. There is another pair of E145 baskets and nos recone kits here as well. The DBX and UREI electronics needed a considerable amount of attention, but it was all purchased as questionable(affordable) to begin with.

81726


The room is part of my business space and it should be flushed into the wall for a variety of reasons. I've had some thoughts about how to future proof such a complex system. What I've come up with is mounting the drivers from the mid cone on up with MDF panels and rack unit rails. This should make it easy to create new panels for testing different drivers. I'm not sure it's wise to tie these rails into the wall or just build the rails as an isolated assembly. The E145 cabinets will only make contact with the floor. This is a very rough sketch of what I have planned. There are no custom cabinets for the 2245 drivers yet, but added 4645 boxes for the helluvit.

81725

The way it sits, I'm completely floored with what I'm hearing. While the percussion is not where I want it yet, it's good to know and hear that I've not made a huge series of mistakes.:)