DIY 1200 Array

[4313B]

Something I've been working on for years in various iterations. Someday I might even finish them.

The intent here was to build as small and efficient an Array as possible that could give a Tannoy DC12i a run for the money. It clocks in around 96 dB, W, m. The smaller size of the Tannoy DC12i (basically the same volume as a JBL 120Ti) is still quite tantalizing, as is the superior imaging. But, alas, it isn't a JBL. Nor can it upgrade from a three-inch high frequency compression driver to run a state of the art four-inch high frequency compression driver if desired (quite frankly, I find the 435Be to be quite sufficient here). To be fair, the Tannoy isn't really at the same price point.

Greg's 1200 Array remains my all time favorite JBL system; custom or otherwise.

[hlaari]

Interesting work
how dues 2206h sound with 476be and 045be?

[maxwedge]

2206 is a great 12", ported or sealed. I use it in a 4way with 2245, 2206, 2445 (w/Be) and 2405. One day I may be fortunate to afford better top end drivers.
Cool project 4313B:)

[Robh3606]

They look really nice! How are you doing the crossovers?? You doing active or do you have passives running. How do you like that driver combo on the horn?? The 476 barley fits in the box:D.

Rob:)

[1audiohack]

Wooaaa! What's this?!? An actual project? How cool. It's good to see something going on out there, especially a project with serious potential.

Standing by with great interest.

[4313B]

how dues 2206h sound with 476be and 045be?
How are you doing the crossovers?? You doing active or do you have passives running. How do you like that driver combo on the horn?? The 476 barley fits in the box:D.Using the 476Be here is kind of like driving a wire brad into a stick of butter with a twelve pound sledge hammer. But I made sure the box would accommodate the larger four inch drivers anyway. I'm undecided whether to use a 243x or 245x.

Hopefully this weekend I can get some measurements with a 435Be and 476Be so I can LEAP some networks.

I'm tempted to use a flat cut white birch veneer instead of the planned espresso.

[spkrman57]

Are you planning to run the 2206 sealed/ported/open back?

I have a pair of 2206J's that I have been playing around with but found no real love like I do for the 2226's I use as my mainstay.

I ran my 2206's in a L-100 cab I had sitting empty but stuffed the port with foam and left the tweeter mounting hole open for approx 60 hz tuning per WT2. I estimated approx 15hz less bottom end than the 2226. I don't want subs in my system and that killed 2206 ideas for me. You do need a sub with them up to 80hz!

I'll be watch this thread progress!

Regards, Ron

[4313B]

Hi Ron,

The 2206H boxes are vented with the 4-inch ducted port in back. They do require subs as intended (as do the Tannoy DC12i). They are the same width as typical JBL bookshelf systems (14.25") as intended.

Here's a photo of the Tannoy. It's a couple inches wider and and a couple inches less deep.

I'm also building some boxes for JBL fifteens to try with the horn modules.

[4313B]

I didn't get nearly as far as I wanted this past weekend. But I made up for it yesterday.

The 2206H boxes are done except for veneer.

I have a bit of bracing left to do on the horn boxes as well as cutting and bolting up the boards the networks will eventually get built on.

I hope to get measurements taken this weekend.

[maxwedge]

Looks like a HTPS400 grill...:dont-know:

[4313B]

Seriously??? You mean I could have purchased a pair of premade grilles instead of standing in a 105 degree garage cutting these bastards?

Oh wait... I don't have the year to wait for JBL Parts to send me a broken pair and then wait another year for a replacement pair. :rotfl:

Actually, they look just like a twelve-inch version of my fifteen-inch Everest II inspired clone grilles. ;) Inspired specifically by the ancient JBL L88 Nova. I know there are tons of other round grilles out there but it was the L88 Nova I had in mind. The horn on top creates a little exclamation point. Too bad the horn isn't triangular in shape. :rotfl:

Anyway, while I never used to care about grilles I now have to. I also ordered spare dust caps and recone kits from JBL Pro just in case one of the kids goes rogue and terminates a cone.

Too bad JBL Pro can't sell JBL Consumer parts. :rotfl: There's alot to be said for ordering something from JBL Pro and receiving it within a week in perfect condition with zero hassle. But then, Pro has always been professional. Consumer has always been a real tragedy that has only gotten worse over time. Now they're "Lifestyle", WTF is that!? Grow up already!

I seriously need to stop thinking about "Lifestyle" or it will kill my will to complete this project. Everytime I think of "Lifestyle" I start retching and it takes alot of effort to stop.

[4313B]

Interesting work
how dues 2206h sound with 476be and 045be?Well... it has none of that "slap you in the face a few times, and then once more for good measure" that untamed 2123, 2202, or E120 have... :rotfl:

I think Doug Button did a great job on it.

[JuniorJBL]

Those are great 4313b!!

Looking forward to your listening impressions!:applaud:

[4313B]

Do you have all of yours done (except the one I have)?

[maxwedge]

Sorry, I didn't mean to insult you if I did.:o:
I think your work is impeccable and it's wonderful that you share it.

I just blurted out that line about the grill because of the sub I just got but should have phrased it a little differently. I get lazy some times.:eek:

[4313B]

Sorry, I didn't mean to insult you if I did.Not at all! I bought a pair of G4338 grilles a few years back because I didn't feel like making my own. For some bizzare reason both showed up a week later and in perfect shape. I liked them so much I went to order a second pair and they were NLA so I ended up building four round grilles for my 1500AL's instead. Now I think the 4338 grille is available again.

I've actually considered building myself some HTPS400's several times, I just didn't feel like spending something like $1,500 on a pair of the twelve inch drivers. :D I have no idea why those particular twelves are so incredibly expensive, that's very nearly 1500AL territory. Someday I might ask. :p

[maxwedge]

Ok I feel better now and will continue to enjoy the thread.:D

[JuniorJBL]

Do you have all of yours done (except the one I have)?


:rotfl:


You're funny!!

Of course not, me finish a project...........Hahaha:p


I told myself that I needed to finish spraying my 250's and button them up, first, then I can build some more speakers.

I will get there soon though!;)

[4313B]

It was a decent enough night last night so I took some measurements outside at 11 PM.

The LEAP imports are 1/12 octave, 1V, 1m, without gating, tail correction, minimum phase transform, etc.

[JuniorJBL]

Very good!! Thank you!;)

[4313B]

You can see that even with the mic stand at max height on the 045BE axis the 2206H was still a bit too close to the concrete. It was roughly equidistant to the concrete and the mic. I might shoot another set tonight at 0.7m


I also took another set of measurements of the Everest II inspired clones. I took them with the system laying on its back and the mic suspended a meter above. It's easy to see the low frequency wrap around and bounce but the data is clean where I care at the crossover frequency range.

[spkrman57]

I'm following the action as it happens.

I might do something with my pair of 2206J's if your project pans out!

Regards, Ron

[1audiohack]

Hi 4313B;

When you say imported into LEAP that got me wondering, do you measure with LMS or something else?

I'm suprised the raw measurement displays haven't brought any horrified responses yet.

Barry.

[4313B]

When you say imported into LEAP that got me wondering, do you measure with LMS or something else?Clio.

I'm surprised the raw measurement displays haven't brought any horrified responses yet.I think alot of people are getting the gist of how this stuff works by now.

The graphs clean up real nice with tail correction, minimum phase transform and 6th or 3rd octave smoothing applied.

The compression driver data is on par with anything in JBL's LEAP files. Where JBL really shines is with those anechoic low frequency response curves. They look really nice. If I remember correctly, Harman's large chamber is good down to the mid twenties.

[Earl K]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=56276&stc=1&d=1342189459


Not horrified but intrigued somewhat .

These 2 traces look reversed according to my expectations ( which were based on previous postings of yours showing the FRs of the 2 drivers bolted onto various horns ) . Specifically, I don't remember ever seeing the 435Be out perform the 476Be below 2K / of course those polars were all flipped ) .

Nice project btw . Any plans on aquaplasing the 2206 woofers ?

My cousin has Tannoy 315HPDs ( 70s vintage, 12" co-axes ) . They really do image nicely .

:)

[4313B]

The 435 and SAM1HF/1400 Array horn appear to be a good match.

I hadn't planned on aquaplasing the 2206H. I wanted to keep the efficiency up and bottom end isn't a requirement given that it is intended to cross over to subs at 80 Hz. There doesn't appear to be any need for damping through the midrange so far.

[1audiohack]

Thanks.

I am also keenly interested in this thread. :)

I like the look of the horn in the box.

[4313B]

No cheating here using the stock 1400 Array network.

The 2206H length at 7.8 ms and all three curves are 1/6th octave.

Someone wanted to know just how bad the 435BE and 045BE drivers would react to the stock 1400 Array network intended for use with the 435AL and 045TI.

Second graph is with the polarity reversed on the 045BE.

[hlaari]

The 435 and SAM1HF/1400 Array horn appear to be a good match.

I hadn't planned on aquaplasing the 2206H. I wanted to keep the efficiency up and bottom end isn't a requirement given that it is intended to cross over to subs at 80 Hz. There doesn't appear to be any need for damping through the midrange so far.

Interesting it looks like 435be perform better than 476be on the 1400 Array horn

[4313B]

No cheating here using the stock 1400 Array network.

Someone wanted to know just how bad the 435BE and 045BE drivers would react to the stock 1400 Array network intended for use with the 435AL and 045TI.
What happens if you disconnect the 045 like G.T. ended up doing in his 1200 Arrays?I unhooked it in LEAP and here is the result. This isn't quite like what G.T. did because he also extended the response of the 435Be. I haven't revisited his 1200 Array network yet.

What this does show is that the 435Be isn't all that bad with the stock network. Definitely too hot for the stock network but nothing a resistor won't take care of as per Rob in his 1400 Array Clone thread. :)

I did play around with optimizing the notch filter on the 435Be as well as putting a 4 kHz notch on the 045Be and the results were promising. I'll post those results if they pan out after some additional tweaking. The 045 has way too much energy in the 4kHz region which is out of its intended bandwidth but close enough to screw the whole thing up visually.

I'm glad one of the LEAP updates included the ability to strongly influence LEAP not to go below a certain impedance. When one tries to start optimizing networks wholesale (not a good thing anyway) LEAP often renders solutions that result in completely unusable impedance curves. The response curves can sure look damn nice though. Too bad there isn't an amp on the planet that could drive them. :rotfl:

[JuniorJBL]

That is valuable info 4313b! Thank You.;)
I was finding the same with respect to the level of the Be drivers on the 1400's network. Although I have yet to completly understand my woofertester pro, I should be able to make some truly meaningful measurments by the end of the year.

[4313B]

SAM1HF network with Be drivers.

[Robh3606]

Nice!


Along with changing the attenuation I shifted the pole in the 045Be crossover to move it up to 9K. When I did my measurements the 2435's had a bit more energy through the crossover point than the 2431 so I used the pole shift to drop it down. It also reduced the ripple through the crossover region.

Rob:)

[4313B]

Along with changing the attenuation I shifted the pole in the 045Be crossover to move it up to 9K. When I did my measurements the 2435's had a bit more energy through the crossover point than the 2431 so I used the pole shift to drop it down. It also reduced the ripple through the crossover region.I did look over what you did. It appears to have had minimal impact on the sonic signature of the stock system as a whole which is very nice. I noticed that G.T. also shifted that value in one of the other Array models.

The sound quality of the 045 is inversely proportional to how it measures. What a mess... :rotfl:

I took additional measurements last night with the system axis on the 435Be and 476Be instead of the 045Be given that the 1400 Array places the 435Al right around seated ear height.

[4313B]

Which horn do you like better the 1400 Array horn or H4338?I'm conflicted. The 1400 Array horn has alot to offer. I have to agree with Greg that the vertical horns just sound better.

But I've played around with the H4338 horn vertical and I find the axial distance between the 1500AL and 476Be at roughly 18" daunting (please keep in mind that I have dual concentric Tannoys with zero axial distance so my assessment might be a bit unfair). In a really big room it might not be a problem.

On the other hand, I think the H4338 looks the best, with the H9800 a reasonable second. I do not like the large size of the H4365 at all. I can't seem to be able to pull away from the looks of a "4338 sans 045Ti bezel"-type box. I just really like that boring old rectangle with the blue baffle. A 4.5 to 5.0 cu ft box tuned to 28 Hz and loaded with an H4338/476Be and a 1500AL (ducted port(s) on the baffle with the fifteen to maintain SPL!) is pretty damn nice.

[4313B]

I did finally get a pair of stock 1400 Array high frequency networks.

JBL also shipped me a pair of LE14H-4's that I'd ordered last February. Too bad UPS lost them in transit. They weren't specifically for this particular project but they could have been fun to try out. Oh well, whatever...

These should definitely be worth charge-coupling. It appears that they simply screw into the back of the box with wood screws.

[4313B]

Does anyone know the low pass network board dimensions in the bottom of the 1400 Array box? I also need the mounting bolt dimensions. A photo or two would be great too. TIA.

[4313B]

Ok, no responses so I'm just going to build the low pass the way I want it rather than try and make it a bolt-in to a stock 1400 Array.

The stock 1400 Array low pass network is very expensive (compared to the quality of components) so I'm not going to buy one just for a pattern. And charge-coupling them without using any N.P.E.'s at all is very expensive so I went with the usual combination of N.P.E.'s and metalized polypropylenes.

The stock high pass networks are, on the other hand, a bargain in that all the inductors and resistors are 100% viable and reusable for charge-coupling.

BTW - Like Greg, I've switched over to using diodes instead of 9 volt batteries in all my charge coupling endeavors.

[JuniorJBL]

Mine added up in a hurry, that's for sure. I did just use good caps and bypassed and am happy with the results.:)

[4313B]

Mine added up in a hurry, that's for sure. I did just use good caps and bypassed and am happy with the results.:)I very nearly did the same but Greg urged me to build a charge-coupled pair of the low pass networks about a month ago if only for the sake of science. His argument is that the low frequency transducer goes up high enough to make a difference. I suppose one could argue that it wouldn't be as important for HT as if would be for dedicated two-channel.

I'm waiting on a miniDSP to show up so I can try that too. You know, just for fun. I'm anxious to hear if they sound bad or not. They might end up being "MP3 quality" devices or worse. I downloaded all their software yesterday so the miniDSP should show up in a few days.

[JuniorJBL]

He can be quite convincing!

Must be why I have that other 14 in mind! :D

[4313B]

He can be quite convincing!

Must be why I have that other 14 in mind! :DJBL is trying to find a replacement pair for me. If and when they do they are yours. JBL is having serious problems with HAdM. I wonder if the end game is to have everything made in China. Their new facilities there would argue for it.

[JuniorJBL]

I am sure that is the goal. Will be a sad day among all the other duh moments.:(

I will however continue to be very happy with my other components made here in the US and be thankful I have GT based products!!;)

[badman]

Ok, no responses so I'm just going to build the low pass the way I want it rather than try and make it a bolt-in to a stock 1400 Array.

The stock 1400 Array low pass network is very expensive (compared to the quality of components) so I'm not going to buy one just for a pattern. And charge-coupling them without using any N.P.E.'s at all is very expensive so I went with the usual combination of N.P.E.'s and metalized polypropylenes.

The stock high pass networks are, on the other hand, a bargain in that all the inductors and resistors are 100% viable and reusable for charge-coupling.

BTW - Like Greg, I've switched over to using diodes instead of 9 volt batteries in all my charge coupling endeavors.

Can you elaborate on how you are implementing the diodes?

[1audiohack]

Does anyone know the low pass network board dimensions in the bottom of the 1400 Array box? I also need the mounting bolt dimensions. A photo or two would be great too. TIA.


I should have replied sooner, I will (and planned on) taking one of mine apart this weekend to get you pics and dimensions. If that's not soon enough please let me know and spare me the trouble.

[4313B]

I should have replied sooner, I will (and planned on) taking one of mine apart this weekend to get you pics and dimensions. If that's not soon enough please let me know and spare me the trouble.That sounds great. While I had planned on wrapping this up this weekend it turns out I'm off to Canada again so this project gets to wait another eight days. I had completely forgotten that you had a pair. Thanks!

[ivica]

Ok, .........................

The stock high pass networks are, on the other hand, a bargain in that all the inductors and resistors are 100% viable and reusable for charge-coupling.

BTW - Like Greg, I've switched over to using diodes instead of 9 volt batteries in all my charge coupling endeavors.

I have not seen mentioned "DIODE supported voltage supply" for charge-coupled network, but I can guess that (owing to almost no DC current loading of CC network) that there would be some kind of diode rectifier with some electrolytic capacitor as a filter (and battery). If SCHOTTKY diode(s) is used I can expect about 0.25V voltage drop on it, so in order to produce at least 1V for polarization for CC-Network capacitor it has to be 1.25V amplitude signal to be applied at the speaker box terminals. That would correspond to about of (1.25)^2/2/8=97 mW power to the speaker and for 90dB/1W speaker sensitivity that would be about 80dB level of sound, what is fare to be neglected. But for the signal level of about 66dB, (amplifier voltage of about 0.25V) there would be almost NO POLARIZATION voltage. So my question is what kind of improvements are expected using CC-network, for low level signals ( where, if "diode rectified" polarization is used, there is almost NO POLARIZATION) or for higher level signals ( where about 9.25V amplifier amplitude, would produce the same effect as 9V-DC battery, but that would correspond to 5.3W or sound level of about 97.3 dB/1m) ?
For more sensitive speakers ( over 90dB/1W/1m) such calculation would lead to even worse conclusion.
regards
Ivica

[JuniorJBL]

I have not seen mentioned "DIODE supported voltage supply" for charge-coupled network, but I can guess that (owing to almost no DC current loading of CC network) that there would be some kind of diode rectifier with some electrolytic capacitor as a filter (and battery). If SCHOTTKY diode(s) is used I can expect about 0.25V voltage drop on it, so in order to produce at least 1V for polarization for CC-Network capacitor it has to be 1.25V amplitude signal to be applied at the speaker box terminals. That would correspond to about of (1.25)^2/2/8=97 mW power to the speaker and for 90dB/1W speaker sensitivity that would be about 80dB level of sound, what is fare to be neglected. But for the signal level of about 66dB, (amplifier voltage of about 0.25V) there would be almost NO POLARIZATION voltage. So my question is what kind of improvements are expected using CC-network, for low level signals ( where, if "diode rectified" polarization is used, there is almost NO POLARIZATION) or for higher level signals ( where about 9.25V amplifier amplitude, would produce the same effect as 9V-DC battery, but that would correspond to 5.3W or sound level of about 97.3 dB/1m) ?
For more sensitive speakers ( over 90dB/1W/1m) such calculation would lead to even worse conclusion.
regards
Ivica

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29370-New-JBL-43xx-Studio-Monitor&p=295666&viewfull=1#post295666

[DavidF]

"I very nearly did the same but Greg urged me to build a charge-coupled pair of the low pass networks about a month ago if only for the sake of science. His argument is that the low frequency transducer goes up high enough to make a difference. I suppose one could argue that it wouldn't be as important for HT as if would be for dedicated two-channel..."



Thanks for relaying that suggestion. I did not consider charging the low pass section. Especially after buying air coil inductors. I used a mix of NPE and 10% poly for the trap in the mid/high section so I will do this in similar fashion for the two NPE in the low section. These xover thingies keep getting larger.:crying:

[1audiohack]

Like this?

The top board 1400 ARRAY P/N 360908-001 has a fastener hole layout as follows:

4.750" center to center wide

3.250" center to center down X2

The bottom board 1400 ARRAY P/N 360908-002 has a fastener layout as follows:

5.750" center to center wide

3.125" center to center down X2

Sorry for the glare, I have a big SLR that barely fits in the hole and pointing the flash where you want was impossible. The six inch rule is just there for a sense of scale. If you need more let me know.

All the best,
Barry.

[4313B]

Like this?Perfect. Thank you very much.

It looks like that bottom board has a bit of room to grow to handle the extra cc capacitors.

[1audiohack]

It looks like that bottom board has a bit of room to grow to handle the extra cc capacitors.

Your very welcome and, yes it does. I didn't measure the floor dimensions but I will if it helps.


Barry.

[Mr. Widget]

Thank you to you both... one of these days (years) I will be using this info.

I am surprised to see such high quality components... in years gone by, JBL cut corners in the crossovers. I realise you can do better, but I imagine, you'd have to spend a lot to improve the sound just a little.


Widget

[4313B]

Thank you to you both... one of these days (years) I will be using this info.

I am surprised to see such high quality components... in years gone by, JBL cut corners in the crossovers. I realise you can do better, but I imagine, you'd have to spend a lot to improve the sound just a little.True, but as was reiterated on Friday, they are a twelve thousand dollar pair of loudspeakers. There really is no excuse for non-biased filters in this quality of a system.

[4313B]

As luck would have it the 2206H efficiency is an excellent match for the 435Be using the stock 1400 Array network so there was no need to do anything with either the low pass or bandpass filters. In short, the 2206H is a bolt-in with the Be compression drivers. The 045Be is still a little too hot as I didn't increase the lead resistor as per Rob's findings.

The 2206H is surprisingly good in this application. Greg thought it would be and Doug did a great job desiging this particular driver. Too bad JBL never updated the LE14H core to this type of core.

As for the 476Be, it is definitely not a bolt-in with the stock 1400 Array network and I'm not interested in building Greg's 476Be networks to make it work (he used the 476Be in his final version of the 1200 Arrays before upgrading to the Everest II's). The 435Be works extremely well, is half the weight and a third the cost.

1200FE - ultra-low distortion, three-inch voice coil, outstanding midrange performance, good to 40 Hz.
2206H - four-inch voice coil, 4 dB more efficient, excellent midrange performance, good to 60 Hz.

In short, the 2206H is no slouch in any sense and can be easily obtained. Gotta love that extra efficiency. I see virtually no purpose for the SAM2LF, with its lower efficiency and greater cost. The Synthesis 8 drivers are really nice but they simply aren't in the same league as a 2206H.

[JuniorJBL]

I happened on a really good deal for some JBL pro gear about 2 months ago, 2 X AS2225's 2 X AS2216's 2 X SR4733a's and a pair of 2446j's/with 2385a's for less than, well almost free. I scooped that real fast so I have a pair of 2206's and that might be why I would want a second pair. Glad to know they work well with the 435Be! :D

[4313B]

Glad to know they work well with the 435Be! :DOr readily available 2435H. Too bad Pro doesn't make the horns too. But that would be too perfect now wouldn't it.

[JuniorJBL]

Or readily available 2435H. Too bad Pro doesn't make the horns too. But that would be too perfect now wouldn't it.

:rotfl:

[4313B]

I'm getting numerous requests for a functional network for the 1500AL and 476BE with H4338 horn. I haven't had time to work up a new one. Besides, it really matters how it is specifically being used, these parts are too good to settle with a generic version.

Still haven't had time to finish up the CC 1400 Array network either.

I did manage to move these things into a listening room after moving the 1200 Arrays out. I definitely do not like their bulk. And they're just stupid heavy...

[JuniorJBL]

Heavy but............ I bet they sound REALLY good though!!:D They sure would be fun to play with.;)

BTW looking forward to your CCed 1400 network.

I removed some of the padding from Rob's Be network as I found I like the horn a bit more "present"

Nice job 4313b:applaud:

[Robh3606]

I removed some of the padding from Rob's Be network as I found I like the horn a bit more "present"



I was wondering about if you would change it. How much did you take off??

Rob:)

[ivica]

I'm getting numerous requests for a functional network for the 1500AL and 476BE with H4338 horn. I haven't had time to work up a new one. Besides, it really matters how it is specifically being used, these parts are too good to settle with a generic version.

Still haven't had time to finish up the CC 1400 Array network either.

I did manage to move these things into a listening room after moving the 1200 Arrays out. I definitely do not like their bulk. And they're just stupid heavy...

Hi 4313B,

Any measurements of the nice speakers, or any more data.

Regards
Ivica

[ivica]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29370-New-JBL-43xx-Studio-Monitor&p=295666&viewfull=1#post295666


Hi JuniorJBL,

Yes, I know that, and just because of that, I have some 'hesitation' about the behavior of the such networks under not to loud use, where the peak voltage is under 0.5V.

Regards
Ivica

[JuniorJBL]

I was wondering about if you would change it. How much did you take off??

Rob:)

Hi Rob
I am not home this weekend but will get the number as soon as I am. I wana say I removed about 3 ohms from the mid and 2 ohms from the high but will review my notes tomorrow.

[JuniorJBL]

Hi JuniorJBL,

Yes, I know that, and just because of that, I have some 'hesitation' about the behavior of the such networks under not to loud use, where the peak voltage is under 0.5V.

Regards
Ivica

I am not in the know about that, just that others here more knowing than I say it works just fine.:dont-know:

[4313B]

Heavy but............ I bet they sound REALLY good though!!:D They sure would be fun to play with.;)I like the single low frequency design better from a visual perspective.

I have one last iteration to try after this, the version Greg said he would implement if he had it all to do over.

I removed some of the padding from Rob's Be network as I found I like the horn a bit more "present"I had the opposite problem. I ended up just putting some L-Pads in and dialing those down.

[ivica]

I like the single low frequency design better from a visual perspective.

I have one last iteration to try after this, the version Greg said he would implement if he had it all to do over.
I had the opposite problem. I ended up just putting some L-Pads in and dialing those down.

Hello 4313B,

Looking at the picture you have sent us, I wonder (neglecting esthetic effect, but just technical ) is it better to use a smaller upper driver, say 12-onch (or even 10inch), as I can expect that would be a "better" candidate for the upper mid-range, and the VF driver would be more 'relaxed' operating from , say about 1kHz.

Some of your measurements would be interesting to be seen.

Regards
Ivica

[4313B]

Looking at the picture you have sent us, I wonder (neglecting esthetic effect, but just technical ) is it better to use a smaller upper driver, say 12-onch (or even 10inch), as I can expect that would be a "better" candidate for the upper mid-range, and the VF driver would be more 'relaxed' operating from , say about 1kHz.The components are what they are. There is a bit of backstory behind it that I don't care to go into at this time (there were discussions of tens or twelves in the mix). Just think of them as a fifteen-inch version of a K2-S5800 or M9500 or S9500?

I guess I'll find out if the "single fifteen in a small box going straight to the vertically oriented horn" ends up being the best implementation. The large single fifteen boxes that preceeded these dual fifteen boxes were also "28 Hz" boxes. The small single fifteen boxes are "35 Hz" boxes, still reasonably respectable for a wide variety of material. All the Everest II boxes are "31.5 Hz" boxes.

[richluvsound]

F--k Harmon , we have you and Guido . As long as you and the other really clever beggers are still here , the JBL legacy is never far from the mix . Great project D ,thanks for taking the time to keep us in the loop .

Best , Rich

[JuniorJBL]

I was wondering about if you would change it. How much did you take off??

Rob:)

Rob

R19 was 1 ohm and I removed R20. My hearing is not quite what it used to be.

I think it would be better to do what 4313b said and add the Lpads.

[Robh3606]

Thanks , L pads are a good idea beats the hell out of doing resistor swaps when you are dialing things in.

Rob:)

[4313B]

Thanks , L pads are a good idea beats the hell out of doing resistor swaps when you are dialing things in.
Yeah... that's gets real boring real fast, lol.

[4313B]

G.T. finally put his "1200 Arrays" (sans 1500AL subwoofers) up for sale last month. They were preferred "local pickup only" and he didn't want them on eBay, Craig's list, Audiogon, etc. Several buyers were found immediately but only one was close enough to G.T. to capitalize on the offer that very day.

Since then, numerous people have contacted me with respect to building their own versions (there was a similar flurry of interest back in 2006). G.T. will be sending me all the documentation he has when he has a spare moment to gather it all. I will have to scan it and then post it. I have had his active solution in LEAP for many years but the passive solution will finally be available too. (There are actually a few different versions - with the H4338 horn gone vertical, 1400 Array/SAM1HF horn, 435Be, 476Be, with 045Be, without 045Be, etc. some of which I passed on to Zilch for his perusal)

As has been stated numerous times, the SAM1HF coupled to any of the better low frequency transducers makes for a very nice DIY system.

I personally really like the 2206H for multi-channel HT. It is well behaved, easily obtainable, has excellent efficiency and can make it down to the THX standard 80 Hz with ease. There is also an ultra-light neo version of the 2206H available for additional cost.

The 1500FE or 1500AL and their variants also make excellent choices for those requiring extended bandwidth for an outstanding two-channel solution. G.T. has stated numerous times that if he had it all to do over again, his "1200 Arrays" would have been "1500 Arrays" with the 1500AL's operating from 25 Hz on up to the Array horns. I don't include the ME150H solely because it has an aquaplased foam surround and that is no longer in vogue. For those not the least bit bothered by foam surrounds, it can be perfectly viable. The new 2216Nd could be quite fun. The various versions of the LE14H (as per the 1400 Array) are also tried and true killer solutions but I have personally moved away from the lower efficiency solutions despite the fact that I will always love the LE14H variants. I just can't afford to have a set of each variation! :p



I'm pulling apart my version of the "1200 Arrays" this weekend and sending the various parts to other forum members. They were extremely fun to play with! I still have the 2206H's (and their boxes) available if anyone wants them.

[JuniorJBL]

Wooo Hooo!! TY 4313b!!:applaud:

[4313B]

Good grief! Five minutes after I posted UPS shows up with some PT waveguides and more 476Mg's... is this madness ever going to stop???

I guess I'm supposed to bolt the 476Mg's to the PT's and put them on top of the 2206H's... :rolleyes:

I just don't have time for this stuff anymore! :banghead:

[1audiohack]

You have my sympathy. That's a terrible problem to have and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Tell you what, out of the good was of my heart I will offer to share your bourdon my brother. :)

[hjames]

You have my sympathy. That's a terrible problem to have and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Tell you what, out of the good was of my heart I will offer to share your bourbon my brother. http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif

Good grief! Five minutes after I posted UPS shows up with some PT waveguides and more 476Mg's... is this madness ever going to stop???

I guess I'm supposed to bolt the 476Mg's to the PT's and put them on top of the 2206H's... :rolleyes:

I just don't have time for this stuff anymore! :banghead:

Rather than the bourbon, I offer to share my single malt whisky with you, my friend ...

:banana:

[Mr. Widget]

I just don't have time for this stuff anymore! :banghead:Sounds damned familiar!


Widget

[1audiohack]

One of us can't spell and I'm sure it's the iPhone!

[DavidF]

G.T. finally put his "1200 Arrays" (sans 1500AL subwoofers) up for sale last month. They were preferred "local pickup only" and he didn't want them on eBay, Craig's list, Audiogon, etc. Several buyers were found immediately but only one was close enough to G.T. to capitalize on the offer that very day. ..."



Soooo...I'm thinkin'. G.T.'s front room. Just some unattached cables lying on the floor? Or what??


"...Since then, numerous people have contacted me with respect to building their own versions (there was a similar flurry of interest back in 2006). G.T. will be sending me all the documentation he has when he has a spare moment to gather it all. I will have to scan it and then post it. I have had his active solution in LEAP for many years but the passive solution will finally be available too. (There are actually a few different versions - with the H4338 horn gone vertical, 1400 Array/SAM1HF horn, 435Be, 476Be, with 045Be, without 045Be, etc. some of which I passed on to Zilch for his perusal)..."

Please do, and thank you...

[grumpy]

Just some unattached cables lying on the floor? Or what??

;)

Ah..., no. I believe a more recent tier of equipment has been documented here already,
and I would guess continues to be updated.

[4313B]

One of us can't spell and I'm sure it's the iPhone!If you were dictating to Siri it could have been even worse.

Soooo...I'm thinkin'. G.T.'s front room. Just some unattached cables lying on the floor? Or what??I think he bought some Revels. After all, they are the best loudspeakers in the whole world.

Just kidding. He and J.M. both ended up with some Everest II's as fronts and K2-S9900's as rears.

[DavidF]

;)

Ah..., no. I believe a more recent tier of equipment has been documented here already,
and I would guess continues to be updated.

Oops, not paying attention...again.


If you were dictating to Siri it could have been even worse.
I think he bought some Revels. After all, they are the best loudspeakers in the whole world.

Just kidding. He and J.M. both ended up with some Everest II's as fronts and K2-S9900's as rears.

Huh, G.T. is going with store-bought stuff now. Cool. Hope he doesn't quit on the DIY path. He seemed fairly good at it. ;)

[4313B]

Huh, G.T. is going with store-bought stuff now. Cool. Hope he doesn't quit on the DIY path. He seemed fairly good at it. ;)I'd love to shop at the store he does! Stellar pricing!

He pretty much had to own a pair of his pinnacle creations?

As for DIY, is that Custom Shop still in Northridge? I just assumed it got booted out along with pretty much everything else of value.

I personally prefer his 1200 Arrays with their 1500AL subs to either the S9900 or Everest II. It's just my preference.

[spkrman57]

The 1500FE or 1500AL and their variants also make excellent choices for those requiring extended bandwidth for an outstanding two-channel solution. G.T. has stated numerous times that if he had it all to do over again, his "1200 Arrays" would have been "1500 Arrays".

Since I have in my possession a pair of Yuichi A290 clones and 2446/Be I think the 1500Fe would be my next step up from the 2226's I'm using now! My difference is using a passive crossover instead of bi-amping.

However, are the 1500Fe's available and how much?

I just might be able to swing a pair if not too expensive.

Regards, Ron

[4313B]

What's wrong with the 2226H's?

The 1500FE's are nice enough but I thought you had lowest octave issues in your room. Do you really want to give up efficiency for more bottom end?

[spkrman57]

What's wrong with the 2226H's?

The 1500FE's are nice enough but I thought you had lowest octave issues in your room. Do you really want to give up efficiency for more bottom end?


I think I'm ready to go to the next level.

I'll always have a 2226 2-way system running also, but it would be the "B" system.

Regards, Ron sends...

[4313B]

I personally prefer his 1200 Arrays with their 1500AL subs to either the S9900 or Everest II. It's just my preference.
Why???Bang for the buck in both size and performance.

The 1200 Arrays aren't quite 1400 Arrays but they are definitely in the same league. The 1200FE and LE14H-3 or LE14H-4 are in the same price bracket. I think the 1200FE has a better midrange while giving up the bottom octave to the LE14H-3. The 2206H is even better but gives up the bottom octave and a half. It arguably only makes sense when used with subs for HT. And it's more expensive than either the 1200FE or LE14H-3 or -4.

I once asked Greg why he went with the 1500AL subs instead of the W1500H subs and his response was that the 1500AL's could be used as low frequency transducers if desired at some point, in effect, they were more versatile. I personally love them as subs, very clean sounding with excellent articulation. But they are indeed excellent through the midrange too as exemplified by the S9800, S9900, DD65000, DD66000, DD67000.

The Everest II is just too big for my circumstances. That's why I don't have 4345's, 4435's or 4355's in my room any longer either. Vertically the Everest II works but I think it looks awful. :rotfl: Many others have stated that they could live with the unsightliness, that it wasn't an issue for them.

The K2-S9900... well, I'll just say that the components sound really good in a larger box tuned a bit lower, and I definitely prefer the sound of the S9900 network to the 4365 network. Remember that the S9900 was primarily aimed at the Harman-Japan market.

***

I was just reminded that the Bl of the 1500AL-1 used in the S9900 was increased so that it worked better in the smaller box. It really is intended to do what it does in the smaller box.

So use any of the other 1500AL variants for an extended bottom end. ;)

***

Oh, and JBL is still fighting with HAdM to get the newest 1501AL-1 and 1501AL-2 manufactured for over the counter sales because there are alot of Everest II owners requesting the upgrade. I really don't have a clue how all this is going to play out, but the thought of 1501AL-1's or 1501AL-2's under SAM1HF's is seriously tantalizing.

[4313B]

I think I'm ready to go to the next level.

I'll always have a 2226 2-way system running also, but it would be the "B" system.

Regards, Ron sends...It will be interesting to see what you think of the 1501FE. I saw you put up a query for a pair.

[spkrman57]

It will be interesting to see what you think of the 1501FE. I saw you put up a query for a pair.I did some researtch and found the 1500AL and 1500FE both have rubber surrounds while the 1501FE has the cloth accordian surround I like so much.The 1501FE's must be rare as I have not heard from anyone yet......?After researching the 1501FE I think it might be the driver I'm looking for to replace the 2226's in my main system. I'm considering bi-amping and using (SET) 300B on top (8 wpc), PP UL EL34 (40 wpc) or my Adcom 555 II sand amp (200 wpc). Crossover point is either 750 hz (Marchand) or 1200hz tube crossover. I have both and will try them both out to see which sounds best. I'm not into anything fancier than that as DSP and other digital things don't do it for me. Regards, Ron

[4313B]

I'll just answer all the PM's in one shot. I posted this before...


Did Greg Timbers sell his 1200 Array speaker system?Why yes, yes he did!


I'm still trying to figure out what GT was thinking! Selling off those custom-one of a kind speakers. I would not have.The Everest II is "light years better" and here is what he was thinking:

I have decided to sell my "Array" setup. I just won't ever use them again and they are too good to sit around. The set will consist of two active speakers for the front (with the DX1) and a set of passive speakers for the rear. The fronts have 476Be drivers in them and the rears have 435Be's. All 4 have 045Be's. The woofers are 1200Fe's.

I was going to check with Dennis(?), Titanium Dome who hosted my event last September. I figure between the two of you we might come up with some leads. I would really prefer not to ship the stuff because it would cost a fortune and I don't want to advertize it wholesale because they need to go to somebody who knows what they are and how do deal with them in the future should there be problems.

Let me know if you have any thoughts.

Greg


I know Greg now has a pair (or is two) of Everest II. But as his Arrays are what he always wanted to build (vertical horns)His Everest II's and K2-S9900's are dialed into his room. He is extremely happy with the results. The 1200 Arrays sat in a room unused for many years waiting for a friend to pay for them but he was unable to come through in the end. The four 1500AL subs had been sold to another friend many years ago.

Greg has said several times that if he had it all to do over again, he would skip using the three-inch voice coiled 1200FE and run the 1500AL straight up to the horn.

And there is the tried and true 1400 Array.

Like I have mentioned numerous times. Anyone can DIY a decent pair of "Arrays" using the SAM1HF and the low frequency transducer of their choice. And I was reminded that I left out the 2235H and 2234H as low frequency transducer choices. I'm sorry for that. If you have them, use them.

I would imagine that an "Econowave" version would consist of turning any of the 90 x 50 waveguides vertical and having them freestanding is greatly preferred.

[JuniorJBL]

Thanks for the info 4313B.

I am anxious to see the xo's Greg had on the rear set, and it would be great if you do post the backend curve from the front set to "play with".;)

[4313B]

Thanks for the info 4313B.

I am anxious to see the xo's Greg had on the rear set, and it would be great if you do post the backend curve from the front set to "play with".;)You should be able to get all that from Doug this weekend. Greg gave Doug all of the documentation when Doug bought the two pair. It would be nice if you would share it, not for my sake but rather for the half dozen or so other guys who built clones. Greg meant to, but in all the excitement of getting rid of them he forgot to scan the pages.


Do you have pictures of the cc 1400 Array networks?Yes. I bought a pair of 1400 Array networks from Harman and modified them. I figured that was the easiest method to use since the coils and resistors in the stock networks are perfectly fine. That way anyone else could do the same if they wanted.

[spkrman57]

I'm pulling apart my version of the "1200 Arrays" this weekend and sending the various parts to other forum members. They were extremely fun to play with! I still have the 2206H's (and their boxes) available if anyone wants them.
I would be interested in your 2206 boxes when you are done with them. Ron sends...

[4313B]

I would be interested in your 2206 boxes when you are done with them. Ron sends...Ha Ha. I forgot that I had offered them here already. I was wondering what to do with them.

[badman]

Having the horn freestanding maximizes ripple from the harsh edge, right around the pattern flip, and the horn loses pattern control at a higher frequency in the narrower dimension, so sidewall reflections will be less controlled below the app. 1200Hz cutoff from that assembly. I'd rather see the horn be as wide as the cabinet and use a large roll mouth termination on the sides, out to the width of the cabinet. This would suppress the edge diffraction and help it load a bit lower. It's unclear to me why one would want the horn vertical unless one feels that the vertical directivity control in the 1kHz range added by this orientation is key. And even in that case, with JBL's resources, there's no reason they couldn't simply extend the horn design forward a bit to better terminate that dimension and pull pattern control down.


Am I missing something? And please, no arguments from expertise, I know the JBL boys know what they're doing but it doesn't make sense to me in this case.

[Robh3606]

Am I missing something? And please, no arguments from expertise, I know the JBL boys know what they're doing but it doesn't make sense to me in this case.

Hello Badman

Those horns load the driver to support a 750hz crossover point. Not sure where frequency wise the flip would occur or how severe it is. If you look at the power response curves and the polar maps in the Stereophile review of the 1400 Array I don't see the flip. If you can listen to one of these systems. I have 1400 clones and they image like no other horns I have heard. Not sure why maybe the horn orientation?? I know my rectangular waveguide systems and 4344's are bested by them as well.

Rob

[badman]

59268


Hello Badman

Those horns load the driver to support a 750hz crossover point. Not sure where frequency wise the flip would occur or how severe it is. If you look at the power response curves and the polar maps in the Stereophile review of the 1400 Array I don't see the flip. If you can listen to one of these systems. I have 1400 clones and they image like no other horns I have heard. Not sure why maybe the horn orientation?? I know my rectangular waveguide systems and 4344's are bested by them as well.

Rob

Hi Rob:

If you look at the response family just above 1k, you'll see that the dispersion rapidly increases with falling frequency, and that there's a peak and a dip in the off-axis response family below 1khz, a telltale sign of a poorly terminated horn. With a proper termination on the horn, it'd have a more consistent off axis pattern, rather than as-shown, which has a power response peak at about 900 Hz. The horn is clearly not controlling pattern to 750hz in the horizontal, hence my gripe. It's not as bad as some other horns but given the cost of these systems and the quality of them in other respects, I hate to see such an easy fix being left out.

Best,
J

[grumpy]

use a large roll mouth termination on the sides

This is something Greg mentioned at TiDome's party, that he'd like to try some time...
(assuming I heard things right... there was a lot going on) :)

[badman]

This is something Greg mentioned at TiDome's party, that he'd like to try some time...
(assuming I heard things right... there was a lot going on) :)

If it agrees with what I'm saying, I have no doubt you heard him correctly :D

One doesn't have to use a hard roll termination either, simply wrapping the perimeter of the horn in acoustic foam would almost entirely solve the issue (I measured the same artifact on the similarly sized PT horn, and foam was a good fix), and in fact would probably be preferred so as to avoid having to modify the XO or anything. Of course, the cool looks of the array wouldn't be quite the same but done right it wouldn't have to look terrible.

[4313B]

If you look at the response family just above 1k, you'll see that the dispersion rapidly increases with falling frequency, and that there's a peak and a dip in the off-axis response family below 1khz, a telltale sign of a poorly terminated horn. With a proper termination on the horn, it'd have a more consistent off axis pattern, rather than as-shown, which has a power response peak at about 900 Hz. The horn is clearly not controlling pattern to 750hz in the horizontal, hence my gripe. It's not as bad as some other horns but given the cost of these systems and the quality of them in other respects, I hate to see such an easy fix being left out.You missed a great opportunity to voice your concerns to those who might feel like doing something about it. Oh well, it looks like there's going to be a next year. :)
Of course, the cool looks of the array wouldn't be quite the same but done right it wouldn't have to look terrible.JBL has been known to compromise performance for aesthetics.

In any case, you could always pick up a pair of SAM1HF's and fix them properly. We would all appreciate the endeavor.

[badman]

You missed a great opportunity to voice your concerns to those who might feel like doing something about it. Oh well, it looks like there's going to be a next year. :) JBL has been known to compromise performance for aesthetics.

In any case, you could always pick up a pair of SAM1HF's and fix them properly. We would all appreciate the endeavor.

Unfortunately, the hifi budget is constrained by my desire to someday own the place I live :D Grumpy's been to the badshack, it's not vast.

[grumpy]

... but full of joy and life every time :)

[4313B]

... but full of joy and life every time :)Well there you go! :) Sounds better than any horn anomalies to me!

[badman]

Putting a smile on my face here fellas- but enough about me- 4313B, is it your contention that the 2206H is superior midrange to the drivers used in the Array series? I'm using it unfiltered along with a supertweeter horn as a rear-firing section on my mains, and am very impressed with it, but would be interested to see any other experiences (besides those in this thread) that you have using it in various apps.

[4313B]

4313B, is it your contention that the 2206H is superior midrange to the drivers used in the Array series?Yes.

But I agree with Greg's thinking that the fifteen would be the best choice. Case in point, the S4700, S4800, 4338, 4365, K2-S9900, DD65000, DD66000, DD67000. "If I had it all to do over again (with respect to the 1200 Array) I would just run the 1500AL right up to the horn and leave out the twelve."

[Robh3606]

With a proper termination on the horn, it'd have a more consistent off axis pattern, rather than as-shown, which has a power response peak at about 900 Hz. The horn is clearly not controlling pattern to 750hz in the horizontal, hence my gripe.

Help me out here. Take a look at the directivity curves for the system. The first is on axis the second is first reflections. Why doesn't the pattern flip show up here?? You can see the woofers directivity increasing then at the crossover point you can see the transition to the horn. What I don't see it a blip in the curve at 900 hz. Shouldn't there be one if the horns directivity is abruptly changing??

Rob:)

[DavidF]

59268



Hi Rob:

If you look at the response family just above 1k, you'll see that the dispersion rapidly increases with falling frequency, and that there's a peak and a dip in the off-axis response family below 1khz, a telltale sign of a poorly terminated horn. With a proper termination on the horn, it'd have a more consistent off axis pattern, rather than as-shown, which has a power response peak at about 900 Hz. The horn is clearly not controlling pattern to 750hz in the horizontal, hence my gripe. It's not as bad as some other horns but given the cost of these systems and the quality of them in other respects, I hate to see such an easy fix being left out.

Best,
J

J, I am thinking I would want to eliminate the woofer as a source of resonance in that 500-800 Hz lump. As to whether the horn could benefit from a different termination I would hate to loose the soundstage/imaging abilities by tampering with the radiation pattern if that negates some of what I am liking.

[grumpy]

I think part of the apparent difference is one plot set baselines the center, zero-axis response, showing differential measurements, while the JBL measurements do not. That said this system was of the better ones JBL has tested on their "spin-o-rama" testbed. Further improvements would be cool to see, and icing on the cake.

[ivica]

59268



Hi Rob:

If you look at the response family just above 1k, you'll see that the dispersion rapidly increases with falling frequency, and that there's a peak and a dip in the off-axis response family below 1khz, a telltale sign of a poorly terminated horn. With a proper termination on the horn, it'd have a more consistent off axis pattern, rather than as-shown, which has a power response peak at about 900 Hz. The horn is clearly not controlling pattern to 750hz in the horizontal, hence my gripe. It's not as bad as some other horns but given the cost of these systems and the quality of them in other respects, I hate to see such an easy fix being left out.

Best,
J

Hi Rob,

May be I do not understand attached FR response but something not expectable happened around 6kHz i off-axis response. Is it UHF driver influence, or some kind of driver-horn 'ringing' phenomena.

Have You ever compare array 1400 dispersion to (2312 or 2307) 2311+2308 with appropriated ("light year behind" drivers). I was amazed how wide horizontal dispersion 2308 lenses 'had produced'....


Regards
Ivica

[ivica]

I know you are directing this at Rob because you and I have a problem, ........

Hi 4313B,
My English is fare to be good to understand your words, but rally I have no idea what kind of problem WE have ?
I was, just, wondering what would be the reason for 1400 horn-driver behavior off axis around 4-8 kHz, as can be seen on the attached horizontal FR dispersion responses I can say may be more then +/-6dB, and is visible on the "cumulative spectral-decay plot" on the same presentation

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=59268&d=1371763519


not caring about what kind of dispersion the 2311+2308 has because you simply want it turned off[/B]. That is the peril in listening to anything Greg has done more recently compared to what he did thirty plus years ago.

And please don't make it a point to make fun of one of Greg's favorite phrases. He has earned it and he owns it.

Well I can understand that, may be, that such driver+lenses behavior is(WAS) the mean reasons why JBL 4333, 4343, 4345, 4350 ,4355 were "rejected" from the mean audio monitoring studios in the 'favor of' ...??????......not to mention what JBL studio monitors have made JBL name in studio-monitor branch.

I can accept that there are more evolution in improving audio reproduction in last thirty+ ( or better to say sixty+ ) years, where renowned Mister Greg Timbers, an engineer of great honor and respect, has significant and unforgettable place, but sometime 'over exaggeration' can blear the real life.

Regards
Ivica

[ivica]

...
If you turn the 045 off before taking system measurements you end up with a nice enough plot. .....

Hi 4313B,

It would nice if dispersion measurements of 1400 horn-driver (with 045 turned off) can be presented here as an "addendum to"
your respectable work such as:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33151-DIY-1200-Array&p=335728&viewfull=1#post335728



Regards
Ivica

[Robh3606]

I think part of the apparent difference is one plot set baselines the center, zero-axis response, showing differential measurements, while the JBL measurements do not.

Hello Grumpy

That makes sense, I was wondering about if they were normalized or not. I knew his vertical plots were I didn't realize that the polars were as well.

Rob:)

[Robh3606]

Hello Ivica

I went back to some of my measurements of my 1400 clones and ran some plots FWIW. You might find them interesting. First the system waterfall, then the 435be and last the 045be. These were all measured with the network in place. They are not raw driver measurements.

Rob:)

[Robh3606]

The 045be

[badman]

Help me out here. Take a look at the directivity curves for the system. The first is on axis the second is first reflections. Why doesn't the pattern flip show up here?? You can see the woofers directivity increasing then at the crossover point you can see the transition to the horn. What I don't see it a blip in the curve at 900 hz. Shouldn't there be one if the horns directivity is abruptly changing??

Rob:)

No way for me to know- but the Stereophile measurement quite clearly shows the off axis peak and dip typical of a horn below cutoff. The slower transition of a bigger/better damped termination doesn't exhibit this behavior, as the "cutoff" is a mild transition to 2pi then 4pi radiation, as opposed to the abrupt change of a freestanding, hard-edged horn.

It's just a variant on baffle edge diffraction, but with the baffle being a horn. The two manifest themselves quite similarly, and are something I'm a bit of a stickler for, since I played with it and made myself sensitive to the effect. Some listeners might not notice, or even find it appealing, but it would manifest itself primarily as increasing vocal as one moves off axis, compared to a better termination which would be more consistent between the axial and off-axis tonal balance. Effectively it's like a 3dB peak right in the midrange, if you're anywhere but on-axis, in a relatively dead (or open) room. In normal rooms with a non-axial listening position it's effectively a midrange peak (based upon the stereophile measurements as well as my experience with this type of horn below cutoff).

The imaging wouldn't be negatively affected by an adjustment to solve this, as the wavelaunch for higher frequencies is effectively further back in the horn- they don't "see" the termination as directionality has already been imposed. It's almost exclusively around cutoff that this effect is to be expected. My typical cutoffs for horns is a little bit higher than some others describe, I would never call the array horn a 750Hz device.

<edit>
I should add that a friend who added foam to his 1400s a la this article:


http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0412/foaming_at_the_mouth.htm

and his subjective result was very positive.

[ivica]

Hello Ivica

I went back to some of my measurements of my 1400 clones and ran some plots FWIW. You might find them interesting. First the system waterfall, then the 435be and last the 045be. These were all measured with the network in place. They are not raw driver measurements.

Rob:)

Hello Rob,

Thank You for the detailed measurements presented here.
Looking at the measurements and the data shown in the previous posts:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33151-DIY-1200-Array&p=335677&viewfull=1#post335677

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33151-DIY-1200-Array&p=335666&viewfull=1#post335666


it seems to me that around 3kHz some kind of 'ringing' is present (can be seen with 435 or 476 drivers too). As wave length of about 3kHz is about 0.12m ( half is about 6cm and that seems to correspond to the distance from the horn throat to the diffraction slot in the horn).
Such diffraction slot may be allow so good horn dispersion in the off-axis plane perpendicular to the slot 'direction'.
Some of "the old school" acoustic fans said that they do not like the 'sound quality' of horn with slots (examples: 238x, 2344), but here on H1400 and on all H4338 H4365 H9800 H9900 H66000 horns, horn wall expansion after slot are not so 'abrupt' as in 238x or 2344, and that is may be the reason why lot of audiophiles ( I have to mention our members 4313B, renowned Mr. GT,....) enjoy in listening H1400.

Regards
Ivica

[JuniorJBL]

Here is a link to the data from GT's speakers.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34253-Second-Annual-Lansing-Heritage-Awards&p=350106&viewfull=1#post350106

[Champster]

Great looking system and very interesting thread.

Where did you source your Be CDs?

Thanks,
Paul

[Allanvh5150]

Have a look here, Paul.

http://www.vueaudio.com/about/beryllium/

Allan.

[Champster]

Have a look here, Paul.

http://www.vueaudio.com/about/beryllium/

Allan.

Thank you Allan! That is too funny. They are in my backyard. I can be a lot of help to them as a corporate banker and fellow audio enthusiast. I'll call them today. Their website isn't super helpful about my question however. Did you just source your diaphragms from them or do they mftr the whole Compression Driver????
Thanks,
Paul

[JeffW]

4313b was using 476Be drivers, there is a pair for sale in the marketplace for $6000 plus shipping from Europe. The genuine JBL 4" Be drivers are sort of expensive and also hard to come by, so most mere mortals opt for TruExtent 'phragms in pro drivers.

[Champster]

4313b was using 476Be drivers, there is a pair for sale in the marketplace for $6000 plus shipping from Europe. The genuine JBL 4" Be drivers are sort of expensive and also hard to come by, so most mere mortals opt for TruExtent 'phragms in pro drivers.


Into "JBL" pro drivers???

[JeffW]

Into JBL pro drivers???

It's been awhile since I looked, but at one time TruExtent made diaphragms to fit 4" voice coil "pro" drivers. For JBL, something along the line of 2440, 2441, 2445, 2446, 2447, 2450, 2451, 2452, 2450-SL. The TruExtent Be diaphragms were to be replacements for pro audio (think PA, concerts, clubs) applications.

In 4" "home" drivers, you are looking at the 476Be, for example. I doubt the TruExtent 'phragm would fit that driver, and you probably wouldn't want to try. Again, it's been awhile, but at one time it was not an easy task to buy the JBL "home" drivers by themselves. Some did, but I think it was more complicated than calling them up with a credit card number. That might have changed since then, call them up and see I guess. But you can buy 4" "pro" drivers fairly easily and install a TruExtent Be diaphragm.

TruExtent was looking at making Be 'phragms for the 1.75" voice coil drivers at one point, but I don't know if that ever panned out. JBL also makes some 3" coil drivers like the 435Al and 435Be, but now you're back to "home". I think Harman was selling the 435Al/045Ti/horn/crossover combo at one time through Synthesis dealers, you might see if they'll still do that.

[Champster]

Thanks Jeff,
I visited VUE and bought a couple of the Be diaphragms for my 2446's.

So now I have a TAD 4001 and the 2446 Be's. Any idea which ones will sound better?

Paul

[ivica]

Thanks Jeff,
I visited VUE and bought a couple of the Be diaphragms for my 2446's.

So now I have a TAD 4001 and the 2446 Be's. Any idea which ones will sound better?

Paul
to 10lHz, I believe 2446BE woulb be good, but 2405 would ba 'a must' over 10kHz.
no idea about tad4001
regards
ivica

[johnhere]

..solution will finally be available too. (There are actually a few different versions - with the H4338 horn gone vertical, 1400 Array/SAM1HF horn, 435Be, 476Be, with 045Be, without 045Be, etc..

Would you mind posting these many details? I'm excited as child. That would be a big help for many of us, thanks a zillion.

[Mr. Widget]

Would you mind posting these many details? I'm excited as child. That would be a big help for many of us, thanks a zillion.This thread has been dormant for two years so the likelihood of an answer is low, that said going with the SAM 1HF has been the route most have taken.


Widget

[spkrman57]

I would be interested in your 2206 boxes when you are done with them. Ron sends...

I've been busy with friends who have medical issues but not forgotten 1501Fe/2206J/2447 on 2332 horn system. I hope to get back to audio again soon, I miss it!

Regards, Ron