Neil Young Wants Digital Music to Die

[SEAWOLF97]

.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2399679,00.asp

sample:

Death to the MP3. Long live vinyl, said rock icon Neil Young, speaking at an industry conference on Tuesday.
According to reports (http://allthingsd.com/20120131/neil-young-and-the-sound-of-music/?mod=googlenews) from the conference, the musician argued that digitally compressed music - both the CD and the MP3 - should burn out and fade away. And apparently Apple's Steve Jobs felt the same way.


Young has argued that the MP3 and CD should be tossed on the technology scrap heap, in favor of vinyl, a technology that's been around for decades.

[louped garouv]

.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2399679,00.asp

sample:

Death to the MP3. Long live vinyl, said rock icon Neil Young, speaking at an industry conference on Tuesday.
According to reports (http://allthingsd.com/20120131/neil-young-and-the-sound-of-music/?mod=googlenews) from the conference, the musician argued that digitally compressed music - both the CD and the MP3 - should burn out and fade away. And apparently Apple's Steve Jobs felt the same way.


Young has argued that the MP3 and CD should be tossed on the technology scrap heap, in favor of vinyl, a technology that's been around for decades.

sure would put a damper on digital piracy... wouldn't it...
at least for folks not willing to bother with digitizing the files...


seems to me that the "music industry" pushed the digital technology,
likely in part at least due to potential cost savings in production, manufacturing, distribution...
but are now not so happy with the current state of affairs...

the RIAA need to come to terms with the fact that piracy is free advertising, in effect

and younger artists need to embrace their ability to market and distrubute themselves (their art) to a vast array of potential fans -- with no need for a 'label' in the old sense....

the cat is out of the bag, so to speak -- and digital is here to stay... too bad for the mega labels...

you can get very high resolution, quality playback from the digital domain....

[pathfindermwd]

.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2399679,00.asp

sample:

Death to the MP3. Long live vinyl, said rock icon Neil Young, speaking at an industry conference on Tuesday.
According to reports (http://allthingsd.com/20120131/neil-young-and-the-sound-of-music/?mod=googlenews) from the conference, the musician argued that digitally compressed music - both the CD and the MP3 - should burn out and fade away. And apparently Apple's Steve Jobs felt the same way.


Young has argued that the MP3 and CD should be tossed on the technology scrap heap, in favor of vinyl, a technology that's been around for decades.

Jon Bon Jovi slams Steve Jobs for 'killing' music

http://music.msn.com/music/article.aspx?news=635420

Personally, I blame grunge! :p

I haven't listened to vinyl in my adult life, so I am not sure of what I am missing.:dont-know: I doubt that it is Steve Jobs though, like alot of others I got into compressed music in the P2P days before there was an AAC.

[SEAWOLF97]

I haven't listened to vinyl in my adult life, so I am not sure of what I am missing.:dont-know:

well, us older guys grew up with vinyl and now kinda chuckle at its revival....you should, just for curiosity sake , find a friend with a decent TT setup and give a listen ....it CAN sound better sometimes , but not always. ;)

part of the appeal is that many albums never got ported to CD and are only available on vinyl , and the going price is usually a buck each ...many have photos or pamphlets or posters and interesting liner notes. Vinyl is huge here in Portland...there are a good number of used record stores.

my 30 y.o. son who starts on his PhD. soon (yeah, shameless plug from proud Dad) bought a Technics SL-1200 and is so happy that he's trading in old CD's for Lp's ....another benefit ?? he's now easy to shop birthdays & Christmas for ...:p

[pathfindermwd]

well, us older guys grew up with vinyl and now kinda chuckle at its revival....you should, just for curiosity sake , find a friend with a decent TT setup and give a listen ....it CAN sound better sometimes , but not always. ;)

part of the appeal is that many albums never got ported to CD and are only available on vinyl , and the going price is usually a buck each ...many have photos or pamphlets or posters and interesting liner notes. Vinyl is huge here in Portland...there are a good number of used record stores.

my 30 y.o. son who starts on his PhD. soon (yeah, shameless plug from proud Dad) bought a Technics SL-1200 and is so happy that he's trading in old CD's for Lp's ....another benefit ?? he's now easy to shop birthdays & Christmas for ...:p

I can report that I am just getting into tubes. I just picked up an in- line tube processor and was so pleased with it that I'm looking for a tube preamp. It just makes the sound so smooth and wide, and yet it's so sublime, not over-cooked. As a kid and I played records that belonged to my older siblings or parents, but I can't recall any of the sonic qualities. I am worried that if I get into records I'll need to invest heavily in equipment to get good results. I am getting to the point where I only want the best recordings. Wyoming isn't the best place for vinyl shopping, or anything audio for that matter. :o: Is your son studying to be a medical doctor?

[SEAWOLF97]

Is your son studying to be a medical doctor?

PhD, but not M.D. He just returned from the University of London where he finished his Masters. Lives in Chicago ...I am storing his L100's and he uses L56's in their little apartment.


Wyoming isn't the best place for vinyl shopping, or anything audio for that matter.

He seems to think that Portland is better for audio shopping than his big city. We are close enough to Calif , and we get their refugees , so that JBL's aren't so exotic here.

Well, your situation has to have improved with internet shopping ??

[pathfindermwd]

PhD, but not M.D. He just returned from the University of London where he finished his Masters. Lives in Chicago ...I am storing his L100's and he uses L56's in their little apartment.



He seems to think that Portland is better for audio shopping than his big city. We are close enough to Calif , and we get their refugees , so that JBL's aren't so exotic here.

Well, your situation has to have improved with internet shopping ??

London huh? That's very impressive! I'd like to get over there sometime myself for a vacation/concert, Mark Knopfler maybe?

Yes the internet has helped me buy things, but doesn't help with the auditioning much. So I have to rely heavily upon the reviews I read here. I just bought the Performance Series units, never heard them before. But you may agree that to some extent it's not just about the sound, but the product also, and the Performance Series with it's titanium drivers just look to be a quality JBL product, and if the price is right, how can one go wrong? If I would have seen those 250ti's you drug home before I ordered- I definitely would have been all over that! But my friends have the 250ti's and though they are of course second to none, I wanted to do see what modern design has brought us.

So do you think we will find some common ground with music quality vs storage in some new technology?

[Lee in Montreal]

When CDs will not be sold/produced anymore, and that people will realize that crappy MP3s are just that, well, crappy. Then vinyl will remain the logical prospect: so many unknow bands to rediscover. And at least something tangible to hold in your hands... ;)

[JBLAddict]

I can report that I am just getting into tubes. I just picked up an in- line tube processor and was so pleased with it that I'm looking for a tube preamp. It just makes the sound so smooth and wide, and yet it's so sublime, not over-cooked. As a kid and I played records that belonged to my older siblings or parents, but I can't recall any of the sonic qualities. I am worried that if I get into records I'll need to invest heavily in equipment to get good results.

reading this I had a flashback of using the felt brush cleaner on an LP....with the bottle of cleaner that fit inside the wood. Hadn't thought about that probably since 1980. Picking the stray lint off the BIC needle......

The rush of Baba O'Riley on vinyl through the Pioneer SX-737 and orange grilled L100s......will never know if it really was as euphoric as I remember.....but damn the memory is awesome.

[4343]

My problem with vinyl is the stray noises just drive me nuts! I once bought every copy of an LP from a used record shop (one at a time) before deciding that the all had been overcut in exactly the same place...
I have a very clean LP collection, most have only been played once, for the tape machine, and I still can't stand to listen to them. (I began recording professionally at an early age, so have always had a reel to reel machine around.) When you realize that most every vintage LP started out as a reel to reel recording of some sort, it just makes sense to want to get as close to the original as possible. Preserving the first pass on tape has been my only real use for LP's. Digitizing them is a disaster, I spend more time editing out the pops and clicks than the music is worth to me! It sometimes sounds better to record a CD on tape and digitize that, saves time at a minimum...
Back when the CD was still in the future, and after hearing some early experimental systems, I was of the opinion that 16 bit was not enough, I thought 30 made more sense. I also thought that 100KHz was the minimum that would sound good to me. 24/96 does sound OK now, I'm left to wonder if my younger ears would think the same.

MP3's? Useful as free advertising I guess.

[SEAWOLF97]

But my friends have the 250ti's and though they are of course second to none,

that's a nice sentiment, but there are of course many that have surpassed it ...still pretty nice tho


reading this I had a flashback of using the felt brush cleaner on an LP....with the bottle of cleaner that fit inside the wood. Hadn't thought about that probably since 1980. Picking the stray lint off the BIC needle......

yup, I have 4 walnut DiskWashers with the little red D4 bottle ... and dust bugs and zerostats.


My problem with vinyl is the stray noises just drive me nuts!

Only buy the best condition available disks, turn down MANY great titles because of poor condition ...

I ride bikes a lot ,,, at first all the street surface bumps annoyed the Hell out of me (jarring my old back) , but now I just kinda "tune them out" as most likely happens with LP's pops

[Mr. Widget]

Only buy the best condition available disks, turn down MANY great titles because of poor condition ...

I ride bikes a lot ,,, at first all the street surface bumps annoyed the Hell out of me (jarring my old back) , but now I just kinda "tune them out" as most likely happens with LP's popsYes, yes, and yes... on the bike front, avoid aluminum bikes, they are more jarring than steel... (OK, I know about Cannondale, carbon fiber, and titanium bikes, but in the affordable realm go with steel)

On the ticks and pops front, some records were just pressed that way... too bad, but usually a good washing with a VPI or Nitty Gritty will make all the difference in the world.

Also, Mr. Wolf is correct above... analog records will often sound better than the CD, but not always. And then there are the vinyl records starting in the early 80s where the master was recorded on the low rez digital that was SOTA then... the analog vinyl sounds as dead and lifeless as the CD version and has ticks and pops as a bonus!


Widget

[Ducatista47]

Yes, yes, and yes... on the bike front, avoid aluminum bikes, they are more jarring than steel... (OK, I know about Cannondale, carbon fiber, and titanium bikes, but in the affordable realm go with steel)
Widget
And here I thought I was the only one with a bicycle stable that is all steel and has a fork crown on every one. None of the local bike shops here have a single new frame with a fork crown.

I think Tom Richey invented the unicrown, but the handsomest fork crown I have ever seen is on a road bike he did for Bridgestone. Mine in fact, the RB-1. (I admit the Masi crowns were georgious. Always loved Italian frames.) The American product manager of Bridgestone, when they were still here in US, is the head of Rivendell. All their bikes - very expensive and designed to ride all day - have fork crowns.

Clark

http://sheldonbrown.com/bridgestone/1993/index.htm See pages 10, 11, 12, 13, 25, and 38. But the entire catalog is a great read. There is even a Peter Egan feature.

[SEAWOLF97]

Yes, yes, and yes... on the bike front, avoid aluminum bikes, they are more jarring than steel... (OK, I know about Cannondale, carbon fiber, and titanium bikes, but in the affordable realm go with steel)

On the ticks and pops front, some records were just pressed that way... too bad, but usually a good washing with a VPI or Nitty Gritty will make all the difference in the world.

Also, Mr. Wolf is correct above... analog records will often sound better than the CD, but not always. And then there are the vinyl records starting in the early 80s where the master was recorded on the low rez digital that was SOTA then... the analog vinyl sounds as dead and lifeless as the CD version and has ticks and pops as a bonus!


Widget

bikes ? my best Touring Bike is Reynolds 520 chromoly , the others are steel alloy too....I like steel bikes.

there can of course be long comparative discussions of bikes/cars/records/Cd's/MP3's ..and their relationships
(can't believe that Phil hasn't jumped in yet with an auto analogy)

MP3's are fine for mobile devices ....I don't feel that all Cd's are evil

turntables are not "turnkey" devices like a CD or MP3 player ... they take a level of involvement and education of the system ...when you clean a LP , de-static it, cue it up ...there is a time investment and you normally stay around to enjoy it ...MP3 ? Click "play" and walk away ...great for todays lifestyle where everything has been Ikea-ized.

when I had an old Porsche 911 , it was the 5 speed with 1st out of the "H" pattern ...rather a PIA .:eek: , but you felt a level of accomplishment when you drove it well ...a turntable is such a convoluted system of angles and pressures that you feel some accomplishment just to set the thing up correctly ...records are NOT for everyone ..

fortunately I live in a town that passes it leisure time with bikes , records , beer and coffee ...there are worse ways to spend your deserved wind down hours..;)

[4313B]

Death to the MP3. Long live vinyl, said rock icon Neil Young, speaking at an industry conference on Tuesday.

According to reports (http://allthingsd.com/20120131/neil-young-and-the-sound-of-music/?mod=googlenews) from the conference, the musician argued that digitally compressed music - both the CD and the MP3 - should burn out and fade away. And apparently Apple's Steve Jobs felt the same way.


Young has argued that the MP3 and CD should be tossed on the technology scrap heap, in favor of vinyl, a technology that's been around for decades.Never happen. The MP3 and CD have liberated music in a way vinyl never could. Vinyl isn't even a blip on the radar of today's world.

BTW - remember all those dynamic range expanders back then that tried to fix all those compressed vinyl pressings?
I am worried that if I get into records I'll need to invest heavily in equipment to get good results. I am getting to the point where I only want the best recordings.Nothing has changed in that respect. It took bags of gold to get vinyl to sound good on the large JBL Studio Monitors of the day. Garbage in, garbage out, and there was plenty of garbage to go around back then too.

[louped garouv]

Never happen. The MP3 and CD have liberated music in a way vinyl never could. Vinyl isn't even a blip on the radar of today's world.

BTW - remember all those dynamic range expanders back then that tried to fix all those compressed vinyl pressings?Nothing has changed in that respect.

the kiddo bedroom producers are also very fond of using overly compressed and highly 'normalized' production techniques for their digital works...

if I find a track that i really like, and is overly compressed -- I will sometimes run it through an older RG unit to try to get some dymanics back....

:)

[SEAWOLF97]

BTW - It took bags of gold to get vinyl to sound good on the large JBL Studio Monitors of the day too. Garbage in, garbage out, and there was plenty of garbage to go around back then too.

correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the choices either LP or R2R ?

HJ has touched on "auto tuning" a couple of times ..I read up a bit on that , not good. :eek:

[hjames]

correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the choices either LP or R2R ?

HJ has touched on "auto tuning" a couple of times ..I read up a bit on that , not good. :eek:

Auto-Tune makes anyone "on pitch" - but its robot voice stuff !!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto_Tune

[Krunchy]

MP3's are fine for mobile devices ....I don't feel that all Cd's are evil

turntables are not "turnkey" devices like a CD or MP3 player ... they take a level of involvement and education of the system ...when you clean a LP , de-static it, cue it up ...there is a time investment and you normally stay around to enjoy it ...MP3 ? Click "play" and walk away ...great for todays lifestyle where everything has been Ikea-ized.
when I had an old Porsche 911 , it was the 5 speed with 1st out of the "H" pattern ...rather a PIA .:eek: , but you felt a level of accomplishment when you drove it well ...a turntable is such a convoluted system of angles and pressures that you feel some accomplishment just to set the thing up correctly ...records are NOT for everyone ..

fortunately I live in a town that passes it leisure time with bikes , records , beer and coffee ...there are worse ways to spend your deserved wind down hours..;)

:applaud: Great observations Seawolf.
Unfortunately, in my Ikea-ized life style I have not had a chance to set up my turn table, even after receiving about 12 milk crates (remember those) stuffed with records from various friends who stopped playing their vinyl.
I gotta start messing with that thing soon.

[Hey19]

:applaud: Great observations Seawolf.
Unfortunately, in my Ikea-ized life style I have not had a chance to set up my turn table, even after receiving about 12 milk crates (remember those) stuffed with records from various friends who stopped playing their vinyl.
I gotta start messing with that thing soon.

match them to high end esoteric amps,pre's and power conditioners, miles of cable and wire etc., but use an IPod for convenience.:applaud:

[Lee in Montreal]

I listen to vinyl for pleasure, and digital medias for convenience. No fancy equipment required to enjoy vinyl. Surface noise is part of the charm of the vinyl media, just like spicse come with curry and sauces with French food... ;-)

[hjames]

match them to high end esoteric amps,pre's and power conditioners, miles of cable and wire etc., but use an IPod for convenience.:applaud:

Well, at the higher bitrate I use (Apple Lossless), my iPod sounds better than the Walkman I used to have back inna day ...
Much smaller, too!

[4313B]

I have to confess that I've never found vinyl surface noise or tape hiss charming.

Someday I do hope to get all my vinyl transferred to flat files where it belongs. The best part of vinyl, the cover art, will be a real shame to lose. I guess I could scan all the covers in and make a screensaver. :rotfl:

[Titanium Dome]

I have to confess that I've never found vinyl surface noise or tape hiss charming.

Every couple of years I get the urge to experience the rapture expressed by the vinyl aficionado, and it takes about 30 seconds of the first track on the first side to break the spell. So far I've resisted the urge to blurt out something unkind to the person who spent a few hundred to a few thousand on their vinyl analog set ups, because it does mean something to them.

I still have a few hundred LPs that are not available in another format, but I rarely listen. My emotional attachment is great however, and I keep a simple vinyl system in a spare room. It's hard to listen to it for very long, but there is some great music that will never be on another medium. I suppose I could rip the files and be done with it, but at least with the physical vinyl it's obvious why those extraneous sounds are there.

[Mr. Widget]

I have to confess that I've never found vinyl surface noise or tape hiss charming.
Every couple of years I get the urge to experience the rapture expressed by the vinyl aficionado, and it takes about 30 seconds of the first track on the first side to break the spell.I was about to post, no one likes ticks and pops... but then I thought about all of the contemporary recordings that I have that have digitally added ticks and pops to make them sound like "old school" vinyl.;)

That aside, I don't think most people buy and play vinyl records because they like these distractions, but I think there are many reasons that people put up with them. As far as "breaking the spell" I suppose that depends on the spell you are under. For me the crushed sonics of mediocre digital prevents me to fall under the spell of the music, I am not saying that all digital is terrible, but the sound of poor quality digital while free of ticks and pops is also free of the sense of space. This may partially explain why some are drawn towards surround sound as an attempt to regain a sense of space. The music played through a mediocre to average digital system often sounds flat and lifeless... and often it sounds worse.

I won't pretend that all vinyl sounds great, but in defense of the more expensive playback systems, a high quality moving coil cartridge will usually pick up far less of the ticks and pops than a more average cartridge and the better phono sections can be extremely quiet, not 24 bit quiet, but quiet enough for most of us.


Widget

[Lee in Montreal]

I have a long list of CDs that sound much worst than their vinyl counterpart. No bass, no highs, and very muddy.

Popcorn on vinyl reminds me that as human we all wear out too and aren't perfect.

[pathfindermwd]

I have to confess that I've never found vinyl surface noise or tape hiss charming.

Someday I do hope to get all my vinyl transferred to flat files where it belongs. The best part of vinyl, the cover art, will be a real shame to lose. I guess I could scan all the covers in and make a screensaver. :rotfl:


Every couple of years I get the urge to experience the rapture expressed by the vinyl aficionado, and it takes about 30 seconds of the first track on the first side to break the spell. So far I've resisted the urge to blurt out something unkind to the person who spent a few hundred to a few thousand on their vinyl analog set ups, because it does mean something to them.

I still have a few hundred LPs that are not available in another format, but I rarely listen. My emotional attachment is great however, and I keep a simple vinyl system in a spare room. It's hard to listen to it for very long, but there is some great music that will never be on another medium. I suppose I could rip the files and be done with it, but at least with the physical vinyl it's obvious why those extraneous sounds are there.


I was about to post, no one likes ticks and pops... but then I thought about all of the contemporary recordings that I have that have digitally added ticks and pops to make them sound like "old school" vinyl.;)

That aside, I don't think most people buy and play vinyl records because they like these distractions, but I think there are many reasons that people put up with them. As far as "breaking the spell" I suppose that depends on the spell you are under. For me the crushed sonics of mediocre digital prevents me to fall under the spell of the music, I am not saying that all digital is terrible, but the sound of poor quality digital while free of ticks and pops is also free of the sense of space. This may partially explain why some are drawn towards surround sound as an attempt to regain a sense of space. The music played through a mediocre to average digital system often sounds flat and lifeless... and often it sounds worse.

I won't pretend that all vinyl sounds great, but in defense of the more expensive playback systems, a high quality moving coil cartridge will usually pick up far less of the ticks and pops than a more average cartridge and the better phono sections can be extremely quiet, not 24 bit quiet, but quiet enough for most of us.


Widget


I have a long list of CDs that sound much worst than their vinyl counterpart. No bass, no highs, and very muddy.

Popcorn on vinyl reminds me that as human we all wear out too and aren't perfect.

You guys have me intrigued with your varying thoughts towards vinyl, I will have to find a vinyl setup and some familiar songs to listen to...

[Titanium Dome]

You guys have me intrigued with your varying thoughts towards vinyl, I will have to find a vinyl setup and some familiar songs to listen to...

That's the better path if you have the time (and the $$$ if you decide to get your own) to explore it. After all, one person's pleasure is another person's pain is another person's proclivity, and only you can find out what it is to you, if anything. Folks who love vinyl are usually quite eager to share their passion and are very engaging if asked for a demo.

[pathfindermwd]

That's the better path if you have the time (and the $$$ if you decide to get your own) to explore it. After all, one person's pleasure is another person's pain is another person's proclivity, and only you can find out what it is to you, if anything. Folks who love vinyl are usually quite eager to share their passion and are very engaging if asked for a demo.

The albums sleeve's themselves were works of art as I remember them.. truly. I remember some of them fondly, and it's certainly something something that CD's and mp3's have never been able to replace. Not only did you get music, but you got an interactive work of art that you could admire and whose meaning you could peer into with wonder (as I did a time or two). Just to have a few dozen of these around to touch and display would almost be worth the price of admission.

I think I would love some records. I can be a bit sentimental and nostalgic, and I think this is part of the draw of the records, the nostalgic sound, the memory of hearing it how you remember it sounding when you first heard it. Good or bad, it's part of the magic that got us started with this passion. Every generation has their experience with music, that aha moment that lets you know you have arrived. I got to listen to some 60's and 70's music as a child, but my generation was the 80's. I remember well walking up the steps to my first day of Junior High, and there was some kids sitting on the steps with a boom-box blaring out Quiet Riot. I knew at that moment t it had all changed, that I was stepping into a whole new something, a six year party that just kept coming at us all through junior high and high school, it was a helleva ride! The dawn of MTV, and music video's were our radio and tape- then CD inserts- were our portable art, and it was awesome!

I sometimes have to chuckle at the effort and expense that we go through to "get back" to that "magic" sound, at the same time we are striving to get to the "ultimate" sound. There is really no way that is possible if my first generational experience was heard through battery powered ghetto blaster. I guess it isn't just about re-living the past, it's just continuing to live the experience. I think it keeps us young.

Ipods/digital music are the new boom box, sound,video, and art all in one. The ipod is a system the kids can be proud to show, something that's all theirs. It/digital hasn't killed music, like the music it has evolved, whether we like it or not, whether we esteem it or not, it's still magic to the kids.

As music affection-ado's what we need to do is to organize and make our wishes about quality known so that the industry knows that we are a viable market. Maybe we could begin a petition and get that petition out to the industry, for better recordings, and better access to it digitally.

[SEAWOLF97]

when I go to record stores or shows , my estimate is that the buyers are:

90% male , 8% female , 2% :dont-know:
80% hipsters under 30
20% old farts (like me) who like lots of "bang for the buck" and are not so
affected by surface noise ie: able to "cut thru it" and hear the music

I will repeat : RECORDS ARE NOT FOR EVERYBODY , but the resurgence
must have some reason behind it. :confused:

[Krunchy]

Every couple of years I get the urge to experience the rapture (:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:)expressed by the vinyl aficionado, and it takes about 30 seconds of the first track on the first side to break the spell. So far I've resisted the urge to blurt out something unkind to the person who spent a few hundred to a few thousand on their vinyl analog set ups, because it does mean something to them.I still have a few hundred LPs that are not available in another format, but I rarely listen. My emotional attachment is great however, and I keep a simple vinyl system in a spare room. It's hard to listen to it for very long, but there is some great music that will never be on another medium. I suppose I could rip the files and be done with it, but at least with the physical vinyl it's obvious why those extraneous sounds are there.
:applaud: I could go for a rapture right about now, any kind will do.
Better get some of these puppies.

54701


I have to confess that I've never found vinyl surface noise or tape hiss charming.Someday I do hope to get all my vinyl transferred to flat files where it belongs. The best part of vinyl, the cover art, will be a real shame to lose. I guess I could scan all the covers in and make a screensaver.

Very true on both counts. I'm not crazy about the pops & hiss but thats to be expected to a certain extent.



I have a long list of CDs that sound much worst than their vinyl counterpart. No bass, no highs, and very muddy.
Popcorn on vinyl reminds me that as human we all wear out too and aren't perfect.

Absolutely ! I remember the first copy of King Crimson's Discipline I purchased of cd, it frankly sucked! The second version I purchased years later was an improvement & I havent ventured to get a third, the record sounded much better.

[pathfindermwd]

when I go to record stores or shows , my estimate is that the buyers are:

90% male , 8% female , 2% :dont-know:
80% hipsters under 30
20% old farts (like me) who like lots of "bang for the buck" and are not so
affected by surface noise ie: able to "cut thru it" and hear the music

I will repeat : RECORDS ARE NOT FOR EVERYBODY , but the resurgence
must have some reason behind it. :confused:

Because there's a market. Because things don't have to go out of style anymore, because there is room for more than one fashion. I see it every time someone re-does an 80's song, or has that 80's sound. Today there is room for all of it, the new and the old.
And there are alot of people like yourself who ask people to give it a listen, and the internet is a medium for which your voice can be spread among hundreds or thousands of people. That's alot of vocal power. ;)

[SEAWOLF97]

.
CLASP

(yes, author confuses bits & bytes)

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/story/2012-02-04/nashville-sound-quality/52963362/1?csp=34news

excerpts:

The recording studio is the same Music Row space where stars such as Elvis Presley (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/People/Celebrities/Musicians,+Composers,+Singers,+Rappers,+Groups/Elvis+Presley), Chet Atkins (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Chet+Atkins) and Joe Cocker (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Joe+Cocker) made albums during an era in which bulky analog tape decks faithfully captured the sound in a studio and music was sold on vinyl records. Analog captures the entire spectrum of sound, as does vinyl, because the music isn't compressed or squeezed to fit.
Digital recordings, on the other hand, are captured by computers, which record only certain slices of sound at split-second intervals that are then encoded into computer language. All those 1's and 0's end up representing a numeric interpretation of sound.
But Niemann's recording session relied on a new piece of recording machinery known as CLASP, which takes a hybrid approach.
It records on analog tape and feeds it into a digital machine, giving producers the ease of editing digital with a better-recorded sound, said CLASP's inventor, local music business entrepreneur Chris Estes.


Vinyl is most faithful medium
Although no medium is capable of duplicating exactly the quality of a live performance, the best audio recordings and playback equipment capture the entire range of sound in the studio.
Vinyl is the most faithful medium, with no compression or translation of music.
Among digital recordings, Blu-ray offers one of the highest resolutions possible — the biggest digital space to capture and then rebroadcast a much higher portion of the recorded sound.
But CDs subtract portions of the sound to fit on discs. And MP3s subtract even more.
In mathematical terms, a typical Blu-ray song contains 2,304,000 bits of information. A CD contains a third of that — about 705,600 bits.
But a digital version — an MP3 downloaded from iTunes or the Internet — captures just 70,000 bits.
For all of the hundreds or thousands of minute human-driven adjustments of microphones, sound boards, mixing and mastering that go into constructing a professional album, it's a computer software program that uses a standard algorithm that decides which of the millions of bits of information aren't necessary for the human ear — in effect, which parts of a song a listener can do without.

[Ducatista47]

.
CLASP

(yes, author confuses bits & bytes)

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/story/2012-02-04/nashville-sound-quality/52963362/1?csp=34news

excerpts:

The recording studio is the same Music Row space where stars such as Elvis Presley (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/People/Celebrities/Musicians,+Composers,+Singers,+Rappers,+Groups/Elvis+Presley), Chet Atkins (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Chet+Atkins) and Joe Cocker (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Joe+Cocker) made albums during an era in which bulky analog tape decks faithfully captured the sound in a studio and music was sold on vinyl records. Analog captures the entire spectrum of sound, as does vinyl, because the music isn't compressed or squeezed to fit.
Digital recordings, on the other hand, are captured by computers, which record only certain slices of sound at split-second intervals that are then encoded into computer language. All those 1's and 0's end up representing a numeric interpretation of sound.
But Niemann's recording session relied on a new piece of recording machinery known as CLASP, which takes a hybrid approach.
It records on analog tape and feeds it into a digital machine, giving producers the ease of editing digital with a better-recorded sound, said CLASP's inventor, local music business entrepreneur Chris Estes.


Vinyl is most faithful medium
Although no medium is capable of duplicating exactly the quality of a live performance, the best audio recordings and playback equipment capture the entire range of sound in the studio.
Vinyl is the most faithful medium, with no compression or translation of music.
Among digital recordings, Blu-ray offers one of the highest resolutions possible — the biggest digital space to capture and then rebroadcast a much higher portion of the recorded sound.
But CDs subtract portions of the sound to fit on discs. And MP3s subtract even more.
In mathematical terms, a typical Blu-ray song contains 2,304,000 bits of information. A CD contains a third of that — about 705,600 bits.
But a digital version — an MP3 downloaded from iTunes or the Internet — captures just 70,000 bits.
For all of the hundreds or thousands of minute human-driven adjustments of microphones, sound boards, mixing and mastering that go into constructing a professional album, it's a computer software program that uses a standard algorithm that decides which of the millions of bits of information aren't necessary for the human ear — in effect, which parts of a song a listener can do without.

This seems a bit off. I do not think this writer nailed it by any means. The first section touts adding all the limitations of tape and claiming it contains some magic portion that analogue captures yet is invisible to digital capture. I call that out as pure BS. I mean think about it. DSD misses something tape captures?

If the idea is that the average digital recording is not as "faithful" to the performance as the best analogue capture, of course. Because the average here is careless and ignorantly done.

The second section is also based on comparing the weakest reproduction of digital masters to the best processing of tape masters. Again, apples and oranges, with the deck stacked in complete favor of the thesis.

I do have horses in this race, but on both sides. I have a very nice vinyl rig and a revealing digital rig as well. No argument that superb vinyl beats crappy digital. But compare the best of both, and the difference is crystal clear and in favor of digital. I spent a long time listening to both top notch digital and vinyl side by side, only the source being different - vinyl vs CD in this case. It did not take long to quantify it. To use an inclusive but non scientific term, the vinyl sounded great by itself but "Soft" next to the digital. I was (& am) using an amp/speaker system that is scary revealing of the input. This would not be as obvious on most systems. But the reveal is that there is much more information in the digital signal, which means more was lost along the way in the other process. Pure and simple, a 13 bit equivalent (vinyl) playback is very audibly different from a 16 bit. If the original recordings were good, it is very, very obvious. My friend who has the same preamp and amp that I do, and different but equally detailed speakers, will no longer play his vast vinyl collection on the rig. He substitutes some tube monoblocks for the First Watt F2Jfet.

Experience - a lot of it - hanging with vinyl fanatics gives me the impression that the softer playback of vinyl is more soothing to them. They say things like smooth, relaxed, enchanting vocals, less strident, etc. And in the case of bad recordings, less fatiguing. All indicate something missing. In their minds, something bad. Vinyl is very easy to listen to. But I prefer to hear more of the performance than it offers. If all recordings were awful, I would probably prefer vinyl.

No argument from me that we already have a playback technology capable of presenting the best to us. Forget SACD and DVD-A. Blu-ray is a sister technology to DSD recording. I have been saying for some time that its best beats the best of any other system we have today. Why it is not being exploited as an audio source is beyond me. Oh wait - the crowd that thinks a $10k DAC sound better than a $2K DAC will not use the onboard one in a Blu-ray player. With no digital out, the high end segment will never go for it. Too bad, because Blu-ray does not need to dumb down anything for playback. Just a DAC between you and the master, if they wanted to do it that way.

Clark

[Lee in Montreal]

You guys have me intrigued with your varying thoughts towards vinyl, I will have to find a vinyl setup and some familiar songs to listen to...

Simple. If you like music, its history for the past 70 years and have emotions from music, you will most likely go to vinyl. If you only want to compute numbers and take measurements, then digital is your thing. :D

[4313B]

Simple. If you like music, its history for the past 70 years and have emotions from music, you will most likely go to vinyl. If you only want to compute numbers and take measurements, then digital is your thing. :D:barf:

[pathfindermwd]

Simple. If you like music, its history for the past 70 years and have emotions from music, you will most likely go to vinyl. If you only want to compute numbers and take measurements, then digital is your thing. :D

No pressure there....;) Well I hope I do not disappoint you.:o:

[Lee in Montreal]

No pressure there....;) Well I hope I do not disappoint you.:o:

Don't worry. ;) One of the reason for which I like my vinyl is that they have history in them.

[4313B]

Why Vinyl Sounds Better Than CD, Or Not (http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/201202106)

Sean Olive
Director of Acoustic Research
Harman International (http://www.harman.com/)
Valley Village, California

Scott Metcalfe
Director of Recording Arts and Science (http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/recordingarts)
The Peabody Institute (http://peabody.jhu.edu/)
Johns Hopkins University (http://www.jhu.edu/)
Baltimore, Maryland

[richluvsound]

Guys,

I have just down loaded an app called Bitperfect and highly recommend anyone stuck with crappy OSX to give it a try ... a couple of bucks for this and I'm very impressed .

Macbook pro to M2 Young Dac via USB ... Not impressed with the Apple TV sound quality though . For convenience top marks ,but sound quality 4 outta 10

have nice tuneful sunday, Rich

[Doctor_Electron]

I kinda like MP3's about as much as Drew Daniels did. Which is not. I own no ear buds. But I think I still have a good set of ears.*

But... what about
HDtracks ?

https://www.hdtracks.com/

My sound card sucks, but even so I think these guys have got it.

[Ducatista47]

Like I said. High resolution Blu-ray audio. It's here. Thanks, Neil. Wouldn't you know progress would have to come from an artist's initiative.

Just watch. Meridian and Wadia will market super expensive Blu-ray players they claim will sound better. That has my horse laugh in advance.

http://musicofourheart.me/2012/05/17/neil-youngs-americana-will-be-100-audio-on-bluray-and-180-grade-vinyl/


(http://musicofourheart.me/2012/05/17/neil-youngs-americana-will-be-100-audio-on-bluray-and-180-grade-vinyl/)

[jerry_rig]

If the point of the BluRay disc is to deliver 192K/24Bit music, then why not put the files on a DVD disc, which is a bit easier to copy from? Some of the best home digital systems use PCs (or Macs) and dedicated outboard DACs. Ripping CDs to uncompressed files (or FLAC files) provides the cleanest and most convenient listening experience.

As an aside, my current DAC can handle up to 384K/24Bit as well as 6.1 MHzDSD files. I get my DSD files from downloads as well as by ripping SACDs using a modified Sony PS3. I send these to my DAC using a Mac Mini running Audirvana Plus on top of iTunes. Many believe that the DSD format is better than the PCM format found on CDs and HDTracks. To my ear, they are close with an edge to DSD.

[jerry_rig]

I should modify my post: the main reason for the BluRay is to enable use of surround mixes for AVRs in home theaters. Most of us ripping audio (for personal use, I should add) are interested only in the stereo mixes.

[4313B]

Death to the MP3. Long live vinyl, said rock icon Neil Young, speaking at an industry conference on Tuesday.

Young has argued that the MP3 and CD should be tossed on the technology scrap heap, in favor of vinyl, a technology that's been around for decades.10 industries fading away

Record stores

Revenue decline between 2000 and 2010: 76.3%

Remember when John Cusack's character in the 2000 movie "High Fidelity" barely squeaked by as a record store owner? Today, he'd be toast.

Tower Records is gone. There are no more Virgin Megastores in the United States. It's no surprise, given that CD album sales declined by half in the decade between 1999 and 2009.

But the music didn't die . . . just ask iTunes.

[SEAWOLF97]

Record stores

Revenue decline between 2000 and 2010: 76.3%.

I'd like to see the numbers from 2008-2012 . At least around here,
record stores are rather stable and record shows are well attended.

Even our big "super retail , 1 stop shopping" chain now sells LP's

the "under 30" crowd have discovered them and tell me that most new
Indy recordings are released on vinyl ...is it better ??? most likely not,
but Mr. W did point out in a recent post that LP's are capable of reproducing
higher HF than CD does.

[BMWCCA]

Remember when John Cusack's character in the 2000 movie "High Fidelity" barely squeaked by as a record store owner? Today, he'd be toast.

I went on-line today to check my local record store web sites in hopes of finding the new Bill Evans release. One store with three locations in the state has a link on their website to their bankruptcy filing. I knew they weren't doing well since every time I'd go in there there'd be more empty bins and less floor space in play. Last year they moved our local store to a new location about 1/3 the size of the old one. Felt like they had more used CDs than new. Neither store offered the CD I wanted. Even Best Buy shows it as not available in stores. Sigh. I tried to support a local business. I guess it's off to Amazon . . .

Just sent them an order for about $70 for the new Bill Evans and also stocked up on four early Fleetwood Mac CDs I only had on vinyl, in honor of Bob Welch (and Peter Greene, Danny Kirwan, and Jeremy Spencer). I'll probably have to use the EQ on these because apparently they aren't worthy of a modern re-master. I also replaced an Al DiMeola CD (Elegant Gypsy) I'd loaned out and never got back. Most were eight bucks. One was seven. And no local sales tax, yet. I'll really miss CDs when they're gone!

[4313B]

I'll really miss CDs when they're gone!Not me, while not as awful as records they're still pretty awful. I'm definitely a flat file fan.

I agree with Ed Meitner and many others, digital will only get better. I also agree that it really wasn't ready for prime time when it came along and eviscerated the record industry. It was quite obvious at the time. CDs simply didn't sound as good as the records compared side by side. They definitely traded quality for convenience.

The demise of album art is the real tragedy here. But as long as all the album covers get digitized and put into a screensaver we should be good to go. :rotfl:

[BMWCCA]

The demise of album art is the real tragedy here. But as long as all the album covers get digitized and put into a screensaver we should be good to go. :rotfl:

I'll include liner notes, too! They should be included in Gracenotes data. Some of my favorite "ah-ha" moments have come from listening to an album then reading the lineup of musicians and making a connection to another album or group. Sometimes this detail isn't even easy to find on-line.

I'd happily embrace the music file once it settles down. I'm not willing to navigate the forest of connection types and file formats right now. I'm a trickle-down kind of guy and can wait until one connection type and one file quality finally wins out and prices for DACs drop. I bought my first CD before I even owned a player, I was so convinced of the promise of fidelity. For thirty-years now I've happily bought and played them. But then I also had a Betamax at one time . . .
:banghead:

[4313B]

I'll include liner notes, too! They should be included in Gracenotes data. Some of my favorite "ah-ha" moments have come from listening to an album then reading the lineup of musicians and making a connection to another album or group. Sometimes this detail isn't even easy to find on-line.

I'd happily embrace the music file once it settles down. I'm not willing to navigate the forest of connection types and file formats right now. I'm a trickle-down kind of guy and can wait until one connection type and one file quality finally wins out and prices for DACs drop. I bought my first CD before I even owned a player, I was so convinced of the promise of fidelity. For thirty-years now I've happily bought and played them. But then I also had a Betamax at one time . . .
:banghead:Betamax??? Well at least you knew what the best format was. :D

Yeah, chasing technology with everyone and their dog trying to make a buck off their own version of it is hilarious.

[SEAWOLF97]

Betamax??? Well at least you knew what the best format was. :D

well, as long as we are OT ....I read that Sony also invented/developed VHS , but sold its rights off to JVC as they considered it the inferior product compared to Beta.

(just as I consider minidisks incredibly superior to cassette or...? ..and they faded out too)