High cost Speaker wire, interconnectors and upgraded power cords? [Archive]

tom1040

12-01-2011, 04:44 PM

"Besides looking good, is thier a positive change in the MUSIC? Just curious how this site looks upon these upgrades."

Well depends on the upgrade. Berylium, Aguaplased diaphrams and Charge Coupled networks are all upgrades that work. They are all subtle but definite improvements. Fat power cords and $500 interconnects are another issue entirely. In my mind you should always use good quality interconnects, that's just common sense. I don't think that you should have to spend a great deal of money to get them.

Rob:)

Thanks. However, I was asking about A.T.F. components to an existing system. I am not going to change out my stock 1400 Array ('cause I love it, as designed). I am unsure why "fat power cords & $$ interconnects" detract from my original inquiry..?

Those issues, infact, were my questions. For instance, with my Marantz MA9S2 monoblocks, would a 'better' power cord remit a magical musical passage of a song? Interconnectors serve a purpose. But is it something that would ADD to the sound? Would the Marantz SC7S2 or SA7S1 sound 'better' with the Arrays with (you name them) interconnectors?

Seriously, I am curious about this. If, in fact, someone can say that it does & how it does it, I would like to understand.

Again, thanks to all!

PS: as is the Arrays sound fantastic. I am researching:applaud:

Eaulive

12-01-2011, 05:49 PM

High cost Speaker wire, interconnectors and upgraded power cords?Is there anybody who can offer some scientific facts that back up the claims that a vast improvement ( or significant improvement ) justifies the rather large amount of cash for such things? Or, as I suspect, they are mostly gimmicks for the audiophile that has too much spare change lying around?
If you had to ask, then you have the answer :bs:

For this the famous PT Barnum quote is spot on ;)

Lee in Montreal

12-01-2011, 06:44 PM

There are two answers to your question.

Some people like when their car looks "good". So they dress it up with all the Pep Boy accessories. So yes, those "fancy" interconnectors work. They bling.

The second answer is simple. Any wire has inductance, capacitance and resistance. Any single wire you can buy. Be they at $5.00 or $500.00... Wires that have capacitive caracter will cut lower frequencies. Wires that have inductive caracter will cut highs. So, yes you can tune your system with interconnects. But are they better than other regular wires? It depends on how you want to tune your system.

My own answer is simple. Biggest scam on earth.

Ducatista47

12-01-2011, 09:58 PM

Most of the high priced "offerings" make my BS detector twitch. The problem is that transparency is difficult to prove, and transparency is the best any audio component could deliver. It is, however, easy to define. Nothing should be added, nothing should be lost.

Most of the claims of high priced copper and silver products sound like they are striving to improve something. The only improvement worth buying is the stuff getting out of the way of the signal. Not enhancing it, not refining it, not putting it on steroids. Just passing it through unaltered. All the electronics fed by this copper or silver should do the same, except for amplification at some point.

If you want the best interconnects, since the best interconnect is no interconnect, buy high quality integrated amps to eliminate at least that connection. As for the wire you really need, as Robb said, transparent should not cost much, and, I would add, should not require any special technology. I suspect that the electrons coming out an ultra pure silver cable are no different from those going to a light bulb socket at the end of a lamp cord.

rusty jefferson

12-01-2011, 10:07 PM

Thanks. However, I was asking about A.T.F. components to an existing system. I am not going to change out my stock 1400 Array ('cause I love it, as designed). I am unsure why "fat power cords & $$ interconnects" detract from my original inquiry..?

Those issues, infact, were my questions. For instance, with my Marantz MA9S2 monoblocks, would a 'better' power cord remit a magical musical passage of a song? Interconnectors serve a purpose. But is it something that would ADD to the sound? Would the Marantz SC7S2 or SA7S1 sound 'better' with the Arrays with (you name them) interconnectors?

Seriously, I am curious about this. If, in fact, someone can say that it does & how it does it, I would like to understand.

Again, thanks to all!

PS: as is the Arrays sound fantastic. I am researching:applaud:

I just did a quick Audiogon check of the gear you mentioned in your system. Depending on your source, it looks like you've got a system value (retail) approaching $25,000. Some of what gave those components elevated value, and hopefully improved performance, are things like higher quality film capacitors, mil spec resistors, and possibly higher quality wire. Solid core silver wire, maybe?

If you've got this system in a good listening space, unencumbered by compromises of placement and furniture, etc. and you are using $7.00 interconnects and lamp cord from the Best Buy, I guarantee you will hear an improvement with better quality wire. Why? I can't answer that. I don't know if the engineers that design wire really know why.

The issue then becomes, at what price point should we spend, or at what point will I no longer hear, or my system will no longer reveal improvement? Only one way to find out. Does this mean you should spend $5000 on wire tomorrow? No. It has to be an amount that makes you comfortable, just like all the other pieces of equipment you bought, and will take some experimenting. It's possible that brand "X" mono blocks would have improved the sound of your system and cost $2000 less than the ones you have, but you're comfortable with the ones you have.

JeffW

12-02-2011, 07:27 AM

SEAWOLF97

12-02-2011, 10:13 AM

.
last year I stumbled onto a good deal on RCA "interconnects" ...

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29904-24kGold-6Ft-RCA-patch-cables-NIB-cheap

bought 1 pair , took it home and compared to my only pair of name brand (AudioQuest) ones ...heard NO difference.
so went back over and over and bought all that I could ...then passed the deal off to my friends and forum members ...shipped them all over the USA and even to Oz ...you would recognize the names of the purchasing members as usually very audio quality conscious people.

these were well made, nice connector, Ch1nese produced Philips cables. I received only very positive feedback on the cables with no problems ...
(well actually the only problem was that there wasn't enough to fill all the requests.)

I rewired all my systems with those cables and nobody has heard anything to complain about ...in fact 1 forum member came over to pick some up and walked away with 10 pairs after the 250Ti demo.
(Hi Paul :wave:)

In my opinion, as long as a cable meets basic quality requirements, spending extra on designer cable is just a severe case of diminishing returns.

Eaulive

12-02-2011, 11:03 AM

If you've got this system in a good listening space, unencumbered by compromises of placement and furniture, etc. and you are using $7.00 interconnects and lamp cord from the Best Buy, I guarantee you will hear an improvement with better quality wire. Why? I can't answer that. I don't know if the engineers that design wire really know why.

Why? Because your unconscious self wants to hear a difference in order to justify the expense, it's all psychological, just like you feel your car runs smoother and quicker after giving it a good wash.

Emperor's new clothes.

Lee in Montreal

12-02-2011, 11:08 AM

If I spent $1500 on a pair of interconnects, I'd better make my friends believe they indeed sound better than $5.00 RCAs. Otherwise, I'd look like a fool. :D

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue28/stereovox.htm

hjames

12-02-2011, 11:08 AM

Why? Because your unconscious self wants to hear a difference in order to justify the expense, it's all psychological, just like you feel your car runs smoother and quicker after giving it a good wash.

Emperor's new clothes.

Some speaker wire may give a slight improvement over cheap zip cord,
but that esoteric really high end stuff is plainly in the vanity press market - high end just to say you bought high end ...

if you can't hear a difference in BLIND AUDIO TESTING, don't buy it ...

Robh3606

12-02-2011, 11:32 AM

tom1040

12-02-2011, 11:50 AM

"I am unsure why "fat power cords & $$ interconnects" detract from my original inquiry..?"

It didn't detract I just listed Upgrades that work. Fancy wires?? There is no real evidence that any of this bling makes a true sonic improvement. I work in the aerospace industry and have been doing so for about 30 years now. During all that time not once has "better wire" been an issue. We have been building using the same wire types from before the Space Shuttle and the Space Station until now building the next generation communication satellites. That also goes for all the cabling that's used on the satellite and all the cabling used to test the assemblies prior to shipment. It's all standard milspec wire nothing special. All the power cords are generic unshielded varieties like you get with your equipment. It's just not an issue.

Rob:)

Thanks. That has been my position as well. Yet it seems that every system at a show has massive wires & cords. Heck, even the instructions for the JBL Everests indicate the advice to use good wiring:

Project Everest DD66000

21

CHAPTER 4Selecting Cable

Speaker wire and interconnecting cables are an important component in anyaudio system. With a system such as the Project Everest, they assume anew level of importance.The Project Everest loudspeakers are internally wired with proprietary, highqualitycopper cables, specially designed for JBL. The same care that was givento the selection of the internal system wiring should be afforded to the selectionand application of the cables that will connect Project Everest loudspeakers toother system components.It is advisable to use high-quality wire and to select the highest grade wireavailable from the manufacturer. Many manufacturers produce audiophilecables worth considering for Project Everest. As with all electronics andassociated components, however, every manufacturer offers products of
varying quality to suit a range of budgets and applications.

Perhaps just for the best speakers?????????

Eaulive

12-02-2011, 12:08 PM

If I spent $1500 on a pair of interconnects, I'd better make my friends believe they indeed sound better than $5.00 RCAs. Otherwise, I'd look like a fool. http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue28/stereovox.htm

What I always liked is the highly technical arguments they employ after their listening tests :rotfl:

Superb definition and imaging are its strong suits. However, as a bonus, there is a sweetness and charm in and around the notes, which compels music to be even more realistic and suave. I hear this on some [but not all] of the over $2000 interconnects; this rightness on the overtones of musical notes is compelling. Add the textural integrity of the 600-SEIii to its superb imaging and excellent definition, and you have a solid winner at this price point and more.

:blink:

Lee in Montreal

12-02-2011, 12:37 PM

If you read most if not all the interconnects reviews, you'll notice that no quantification is ever used. Therefore the promise cannot be counter argued. But you got a lot of perceptive jumbo mambo. Nobody will be able to sue the cable manufacturer for not having been able to supply what was sold.

On another note, I know a few guys who make and sell those "higher grades" interconnects. The rule is simple. It must cost 1 percent of what it retails for. Therefore, in your $100.00 cable, you have $1.00 of material and manufacturing. I am guilty of having a few Wizard and Audioquest interconnects. All they do is filter the signal. If your tweeters are soft, get silver cables, it'll make the sound brighter. Not necessarely better though. Pure rubbish but people are buying it.

Rolf

12-02-2011, 02:58 PM

To those who are more learned than me, but his is my experiance: I can tell you that I have NEVER upgraded ANY product ever if I could not hear something that at least sounded more pleassent in my ears than my existing product. For years ago we had "The Great Cable Debate, and won't go into that again. This is what I have found out: Standard interconnects, witch I don't call cables is no good. I have a relativ expencive cable from my CD Player to the pre amp. (about US$ 2000) From the pre -amp to the electronic crossover > the Power amps, not so expensive. (about US$ 800x2 as I bi-amp) From the amps to the speakers (about US$ 300x2 as I bi-amp. The speaker cables is rather thick. Why? Compare a garden hose to the ones used by the fire department. You can't get as much water out of a garden hose than the ones the fire department use. I have tried expencive power cords and compared them with a (good) standard cord. Did not hear any difference.

My advice is to try and compare. If you can't here an improvement, why change?

BMWCCA

12-02-2011, 06:47 PM

The speaker cables is rather thick. Why? Compare a garden hose to the ones used by the fire department. You can't get as much water out of a garden hose than the ones the fire department use.
To push your analogy further: What will happen if you hook your fire-department hose to your domestic faucet? A rather pathetic dribble of water, is what. Same amount of water comes out, just no pressure. Sometimes those smaller "hoses" work better for what you're trying to achieve (washing your car?).

But what the heck do I know? (not much) I'm using 6-Moons White Lightning speaker cables.

tjnif

12-02-2011, 08:17 PM

Allanvh5150

12-02-2011, 08:41 PM

Having said all this about cable, the same thing springs to mind about speakers. D66000 comes to mind.......:blink:

Mr. Widget

12-02-2011, 08:56 PM

Having said all this about cable, the same thing springs to mind about speakers. D66000 comes to mind.......:blink:What does that mean?

Widget

herki the cat

12-02-2011, 10:27 PM

While people claim to hear differences, it still boggles my mind on the power cords. House is wired with say 12/2 Romex to the outlet, then you put a $$$ power cord between the outlet in the wall and the plug on the rear of the amp, but you pull the cover on the amp and it's just plain old 12ga copper from the plug to the circuitry in the amp. I have a hard time wrapping my head around how this particular 3ft piece in the entire chain could make such a difference.I say let people buy what they like, but I'm awfully skeptical on this part.

Power Cords....The mystery of the ages is very simple. These wonderfull expensive power cords address Noise and distortion principally from the 60 Hz power line & amplifier power supply solid state rectifiers including digital signal trash...This trash travels around into sensitive amplifiers input circuits via power cords. Professional quality power cords will have two filters consisting of two more cylindrical ferrite cores lumped together surrounding the power wires, each located a few inches from the power cord male & female three prong connectors.

Noise & power line distortion & frequency response of Power Cords can be precisely measured in calibrated set ups matching the source impedance and load impedance seen by typical Power Cord in real life. This is standard laboratory practice used to design these cables.

Vacuum tube rectifiers in vacuum tube amplifiers do not generate this self noise__ Solid state rectifiers store significant levels of energy which they discharge with a nasty (L) times (DI/DT) defining a nearly one kilovolt surge__ one micro second long__ at rectifier current flow cut off, 120 times per second. You can see this trash with a 40 megacycle oscilloscope all over the power transformer circuitry and there is no way you can contain this at the transformer! [I HAVE BEEN THERE]

The standard Industry "IEEE" Specification requires less than 0.50 percent AC power Line Distortion for professional audio service. Typical 60Hz 120 volt power will present with 5 or 7 percent distortion plus very sharp pulses as high as 10 to 30 volts from motors around the neighborhood. Very elegant Active Circuit Power Conditioners are available yielding less than one Percent Distortion. These are Superb Powerful Machines!

Musical Interface inc,. MIT inc., offers a passive filter in a power cord format retailing at $700 MSRP designed by Mr. Richard Marsh that presents a shunt five ohm resistance effective in a band width of 200 Hz to 20,000Hz...This is my favorite because it presents a definite, significant noise clean up, costing like 30 persent of the popular Active Circuit Power Conditioners..

Mr. Widget

12-02-2011, 10:37 PM

Power Cords....The mystery of the ages is very simple. These wonderfull expensive power cords address Noise and distortion principally from the 60 Hz power line & amplifier power supply solid state rectifiers including digital signal trash...This trash travels around into sensitive amplifiers input circuits via power cords. Professional quality power cords will have two filters consisting of two more cylindrical ferrite cores lumped together surrounding the power wires, each located a few inches from the power cord male & female three prong connectors.It is possible that in rare instances a line conditioner or a filter ahead of a modern piece of electronics may help as you describe, but I have talked with numerous manufacturers and they have all said that their supplied $3 power cord is all that is needed to allow you to realize the full potential of their uber expensive piece of gear.

See follow up below with an alternative suggestion...

Widget

Mr. Widget

12-02-2011, 10:38 PM

I'll talk about speaker cables here, but the same basics apply to interconnects.

Do speaker cables and interconnects make a difference? The short answer is yes. But, please keep reading. So, what is the best speaker cable? Not so fast. A piece of wire, any wire, will have some resistance, inductance, and capacitance. In a theoretically perfect wire these values would all be zero, in reality they never are. That said, a length of ample gauged speaker cable will effectively be close enough to zero in all three of these parameters. If you use a short run of twisted pair 14/2 or 12/2 for a little longer run these values should all be close enough to the theoretical zero as to impart no influence on the sound. That said, there are audiophile cables that are designed to filter out some of the audio band and color the sound in one way or another by adding inductance and/or capacitance in conjunction with a bit of resistance. They may do this with the construction of the cable itself or they may add an in-line network.

By adding a speaker cable that does affect the sound you are basically adding a passive equalizer into your system. In some cases this may be desirable, in others not so much. The biggest problem with this approach is the lack of control... the same wire can do very different things with loudspeakers of differing designs. Beyond that, you have no idea in advance how it will affect the performance of your system and will be looking for the proverbial needle in the haystack as you try to find the "right" cable for your system. I visited a high end audio cable manufacturer who demo'd a pair of loudspeaker cables with external networks... the advertising for these cables was a bunch on nonsense, but these $16K cables did subjectively "sound better" than a simple 14/2 twisted pair while demo-ing the music they chose. That said, these cables were designed for this system... the speakers and amps did sound their best with this cable, but I doubt a different brand of speakers would benefit from these cables, perhaps even a different model from the same brand would be a disappointment.

So, if you have an unlimited budget of both time and money, you can try one pair of cables after another and you just might find a synergistic combination that sounds a little better than a simple piece of quality wire that costs 50¢ a foot. How much better is a little better? Read my next post.

Widget

Mr. Widget

12-02-2011, 10:38 PM

Listening is subjective... we have no choice, we can take objective measurements, but ultimately all listening is subjective. Even a blind or double blind listening session is subjective to some extent. Keep reading...

I recently watched a very intriguing podcast (http://www.hometheater.com/content/podcast-84-john-atkinson) by Stereophile's John Atkinson of Stereophile where he discussed human perception as it relates to audio. He discussed some audio studies that he has participated in as well others that he is familiar with and anecdotal experiences as well. This podcast isn't a typical Stereophile article where potential advertising dollars are at risk... if you are interested I encourage you to slog through the dull bits, there are some significant nuggets in there. His comments don't "answer" the mysteries of audio, but they certainly make you look at many of our everyday audio controversies differently.

In short, he discusses how our expectations can create our aural reality. One example he cites is the initial reaction to the original Edison recordings where they were considered "flawless recreations"... i.e., since people had no previous experience with reproduced audio, even the relatively crude early recordings were perceived as being exact reproductions and indiscernible from the original because people had no expectations. He discusses several other examples of how our experience and expectations color our perception of reality. Another interesting one is a test that was performed at Acoustic Research. In this case there is a flashing light in a dark room... when the light changes location, the viewer's brain keeps it in the previous location and eventually slowly pans it across the field until it is in the correct location instead of simply relocating it... because the viewer thought he knew where it was. (Listen to the podcast, it is pretty intriguing.)

The bottom line, our expectations have such a strong and convincing effect that we are certain when we hear this or that. For example, if a forum member ships me his favorite cables and I hear no change over my typical cables it is likely due to the fact that I didn't expect there to be a difference.... conversely, he was hoping these cables would aid his search for audio nirvana... and when he installs them, they do.

I realize this asks more questions than it answers, but I think it answers how an AC line cord can have an audible effect... an effect that the happy owner is so convinced of, or how a number of other seemingly impossible solutions can make some people satisfied customers when others scratch their heads. I am not suggesting that anyone who has heard a difference with Mpingo discs etc. is a fool... hell, I've heard the difference, but then it faded much like the light in the AR study... but I am suggesting that we need more study in this area.

Widget

hjames

12-02-2011, 10:43 PM

Actually, I think you may be misunderstanding the discussion. This is not about proper power supply design and related circuits - its not about ferrite cores or anything like that, this is just about replacing a standard 2 or 3 wire wire cord that goes between the wall outlet and the amp itself with a newer/more expensive cable. Its just a power cord, not the power supply or MOV surge suppressor or any of that - just a power cord. Like this "Cardas Golden Power Cord" thingee for $540 - http://www.revolutionpower.com/p/Cardas+Golden+Power+Cord/228/ Again - the wiring in your wall isn't "this good", the wiring from the back of your receiver to the internal circuit boards isn't "this good" - so why would replacing this one cable in the middle make your sound more transparent, etc ...

53882

Not to pick on Cardas above the others,
they were just the first high end power cord that came up when I did a search.

Power Cords....The mystery of the ages is very simple. These wonderfull expensive power cords address Noise and distortion principally from the 60 Hz power line & amplifier power supply solid state rectifiers including digital signal trash...This trash travels around into sensitive amplifiers input circuits via power cords. Professional quality power cords will have two filters consisting of two more cylindrical ferrite cores lumped together surrounding the power wires, each located a few inches from the power cord male & female three prong connectors. Vacuum tube rectifiers in vacuum tube amplifiers do not generate this self noise__ Solid state rectifiers store significant levels of energy which they discharge with a nasty (L) times (DI/DT) defining a nearly one kilovolt surge__ one micro second long__ at rectifier current flow cut off, 120 times per second. You can see this trash with a 40 megacycle oscilloscope all over the power transformer circuitry and there is no way you can contain this at the transformer! [I HAVE BEEN THERE] The standard Industry "IEEE" Specification requires less than 0.50 percent AC power Line Distortion for professional audio service. Typical 60Hz 120 volt power will present with 5 or 7 percent distortion plus very sharp pulses as high as 10 to 30 volts from motors around the neighborhood. Very elegant active circuit power conditioners are available yielding less than one Percent Distortion. Musical Interface inc,. MIT inc., offers a passive filter retailing at MSPRC $700 designed by Mr. Richard Marsh that presents a shunt five ohm resistance effective in a band width of 200 Hz to 20,000Hz...This is my favorite because it presents a definite, significant noise clean up.

Titanium Dome

12-02-2011, 11:10 PM

Having said all this about cable, the same thing springs to mind about speakers. D66000 comes to mind.......:blink:
What does that mean?WidgetUh oh! Fat's about to fall in the fire! :flamed:

OK, more seriously off the topic of power cords and back toward speaker cables, I've written about my alloy wheel analogy before. I had steel wheels with small hub caps on my Sorento, and it saved a few hundred bucks, but it just looked cheap. Virtually every other Sorento I saw had alloy wheels and looked much cooler. I'm sure they didn't drive faster or better, but they looked better. When I recently got a new car, I got some bitchin' wheels. It's a four banger stick, better mileage, ULEV, etc., but not nearly as powerful as the Sorento, yet man I feel like I'm driving a meaner machine with those fancy wheels. Yes it's perception, but, guess what, unless we're blind we all appreciate with our eyes as well as our ears.

I put those big-ass Monster Cable speaker wires on my K2s because everything else made them look cheap. Of course, I got the Monster Cable used in a pile of Synthesis® gear I snagged in NorCal, and they'd been in my garage for a couple of years, but the point is I like the way the K2s look bi-amped with that b-a wire in its black sheath.

Besides, once we get to the output side of a high power amplifier, things are a bit different than when they came in. I agree that it's hard to imagine anything before the transformers needing anything bigger or better than what's in the wall, but the other side of the transformers is not drawing direct from the wall; it's drawing from the large reservoir of power created in the transformers. So you can certainly use a "garden hose" to fill that reservoir, but you won't be able to tap the full potential of it with a garden hose on the outlet side. If you had a "fire hose" attached there, you could draw all the water you needed up to the limit of the reservoir, then you'd be down to a garden hose trickle again. Of course the good thing about our systems is that they're not like raging fires requiring constant, copious amounts of water. Sometimes we need a little, sometimes we need a lot, and there are even times when we need virtually none.

Yep, it's dicey to mix water and electricity, probably more so in the form of an analogy, but it was the model that was under debate.

My K2s are on a separate 20A circuit that's wired in 12 Ga. so I guess 12 Ga. speaker wire would be perfect, except–

The ATI amps have 14 Ga wire from the power receptacle to the Toroidal Transformers, so I guess 14 Ga. might be plenty, except–

From the transformers to the power modules it's wired in 10 Ga., so maybe I should have 10 Ga. speaker wire!

Well, the super fat Monster Cable wire is regular--I mean superior--12 Ga. copper surrounded by lots of padding, and that will probably be fine, as long as it looks good.

And another thing: the quality and design of the fitting is integral to the usefulness of the hose. If you have no fitting on one or both sides of the hose, then it's not going to be too effective, even if the hose is really expensive. Even if you get the cheapest fittings possible, it'll work better than no fitting, though you might lose some pressure if they leak a bit. Spending a couple of extra dollars on quality fittings that don't leak makes sense. I see a lot of expensive cables that have really stupid fittings on them, mostly user installed/implemented. While I'm not opposed to bare wire, banana plugs, spades, or whatever, I am opposed to stupid implementations of said fittings, such as jamming 12 Ga. wire into a hole that is only big enough for 16. Ga, or haphazardly winding bare wire counter-clockwise around a binding post, or using spades that are obviously to big or too small for the application, or using plugs that are too thin and fall out of the receptacle or too fat and won't slide in past the flex point.

(Shoot, I guess I'd better go down and fix the fittings on those PT250s. :banghead:)

And here comes Rob with his :moon: kickin' shoes on...

herki the cat

12-02-2011, 11:33 PM

[QUOTE=hjames;324397]Actually, I think you may be misunderstanding the discussion. This is not about proper power supply design and related circuits.... so why would replacing this one cable in the middle make your sound more transparent, etc ... [quote']

Well, as I posted....To clean up the noise & gossip between system components via the AC power supply interconnections.... The AC power corruption requires AC power conditioners."

We agreed "that if you listen to the thing and you don't like it ...Don't buy it." ....MIT Inc., states "if you make measurements and the results are not satisfactory, you may well be measuring the wrong thing."

MIT Inc., has an excellent free cable loaner library. It's worth a try. herki[quote]

herki the cat

12-03-2011, 12:11 AM

[QUOTE=Titanium Dome;324398]Uh oh! Fat's about to fall in the fire!

OK, more seriously off the topic of power cords and back toward speaker cables, I've written about my alloy wheel analogy before. I had steel wheels with small hub caps on my Sorento....Virtually every other Sorento I saw had alloy wheels and looked much cooler. ....I recently got a new car, I got some bitchin' wheels. It's a four banger stick, better mileage, ULEV, etc., but not nearly as powerful as the Sorento, yet man I feel like I'm driving a meaner machine with those fancy wheels. Yes it's perception, but, guess what, unless we're blind we all appreciate with our eyes as well as our ears.

I put those big-ass Monster Cable speaker wires on my K2s because everything else made them look cheap. Of course, I got the Monster Cable used in a pile of Synthesis® gear I snagged in NorCal, and they'd been in my garage for a couple of years, but the point is I like the way the K2s look bi-amped with that b-a wire in its black sheath....{quote]

Titanium Dome, I love what you say. I just purchased my wife a new VW Diesel Golf to replace her old 1902 death trap she prized because of the 40MPG. Every inch of this new VW is awesome & superbly engineered. I stepped out of it today returning from the dentist and I felt like I should work hard, & grow up to be a more mature person, in comparison to that VW.

With Audio, you really need to separate reality from emotion. Visit your High End Dealers and your friends with their fantastic Audio Whatever's, close your eyes & listen carefully when you listen to the music. What else can you do?

The home acoustic environment is cluttered with horrible reverberation sounds, so keep in mind that dealers have $10,000 listening rooms with superb acoustic design. There,you will hear more of the naked sound qualities of the audio hardware. Also, note that, each time, interconnects and speaker cables are handled or changed they do require a few days to break in! This complicates auditioning and comparing cable performance.

Allanvh5150

12-03-2011, 12:11 AM

Talking about power cables though, Cardas and many others have flitration built into the cables. Either with inductance, capacitance or both. If you are in an area of bad power line harmonics and noise, these cables may be of some benefit.
Talking about speaker cables, the best will be standard enameled copper wire at a particular wire spacing. This is of course not very practical. Teflon insulated cable is very low capacitance and rather expensive but extremely good spec wise. Uber cheap cables can adversely effect frequency response. Stock standard copper flex is very cheap and works extremely well. Bigger siaes for higher power.
Talking about Optical cables, a $5 cable from China will probably perform as good as a $500 cable from fantasy land. The expensive cable will probably perform better over 500m because it "may" be made of clearer glass but lets face it, most of our optical cables are only 1-2 m long. Same pretty much as HDMI.

All that said, there is a huge market for relieving cash from peoples walletts because they are a, poorly informed, or b, they dont care and only want to be able to say that the spent a grand on a cable and they can clearly hear the cromulent features of the cable the embiggens the musical soundstage.

Allan.

Oh, as for the D66000 comment, Are they worth $60K? The people with $60K who would buy them would agree, playing a 35khz test tone most Labradors would agree they sound fantastic. :)

BMWCCA

12-03-2011, 12:38 AM

I've written about my alloy wheel analogy before. I had steel wheels with small hub caps on my Sorento, and it saved a few hundred bucks, but it just looked cheap. Virtually every other Sorento I saw had alloy wheels and looked much cooler. I'm sure they didn't drive faster or better, but they looked better. When I recently got a new car, I got some bitchin' wheels. It's a four banger stick, better mileage, ULEV, etc., but not nearly as powerful as the Sorento, yet man I feel like I'm driving a meaner machine with those fancy wheels. Yes it's perception, but, guess what, unless we're blind we all appreciate with our eyes as well as our ears.

Everyone's car runs better after it's been washed or detailed. Fact or perception?

But alloy wheels versus steel? There is a measurable and perceptible difference. First, assuming we're talking a quality alloy wheel, the aluminum alloy is lighter than a steel wheel. Forged aluminum is lighter and stronger still than a cast alloy, in most cases. Now T-dome is talking Kia, so all bets may be off in applying measurable improvement but the goal of an alloy wheel (in the past) was to lower unsprung weight where it is most critical to handling. Sure lowering the mass of the entire car helps but lowering the "unsprung" mass where the suspension is working allows the suspension to react quicker and for the shocks and springs to control that reaction. Even among alloys of the same size there can be as much as a ten-to-twenty pound difference in the wheel/tire assembly. I have a fine 17-inch OZ alloy wheel (the Saturn that was the standard wheel on the Lotus Esprit V8) that I've used on my BMW. Mounted with the same tire, that combination is thirteen-pounds heavier than the BMW-issue M5 alloy including its two-piece magnesium wheel fan. The difference in feel of the car with the lighter wheels is immediately noticeable, desirable, and measurable. Lighter is better (something you'd think Colin Chapman and Lotus would have wanted in their car).

I don't miss T-domes point. But then it is a Kia. Alloys are there for "looks", not for strength or conservation of un-sprung weight. And the driver feels better because they like the look. I like a shiny, freshly painted car, too, but doubt that increases the performance in a measurable way.

Most of us grew up in the era of "If it feels good, do it!" Doesn't mean some actions or objects don't measurably alter our experience. I'm sure the DD6600 would alter mine! Even if the wiring to them doesn't. Much of this is psycho-babble, but improvement offered by a a good alloy wheel (at least) is real just as much as a good tire improves handling over a round-and-black Cooper of other such crap.

Allanvh5150

12-03-2011, 01:55 AM

Having a good shine on a car does increase performance that is very measurable and is the reason most race cars are polished right before the race. However, the difference between a dull finish and a highly polished finish on a standard road car will not be obvious to the driver.

Allan.

herki the cat

12-03-2011, 01:56 AM

Rolf

12-03-2011, 05:12 AM

My point was that if a speaker cable is to thin, the power from the amp won't get true the cable and will not end up in the speaker terminals. To thin cables will not be able to transfere high power signal. It's like using a thin lamp cord driving a power tool that needs a thicker cable. What will happen? Yes the lamp cord will get hot, and finaly burn up. Over sized speaker cables is not necassery, but I doubt they will do any harm to the sound.

To push your analogy further: What will happen if you hook your fire-department hose to your domestic faucet? A rather pathetic dribble of water, is what. Same amount of water comes out, just no pressure. Sometimes those smaller "hoses" work better for what you're trying to achieve (washing your car?).

But what the heck do I know? (not much) I'm using 6-Moons White Lightning speaker cables.

svollmer

12-03-2011, 05:30 AM

I can't say I've heard differences between power cables, interconnects, or speaker cables. But there are a great deal of all of these types of cables out there at very reasonable prices (some new, some used) that would fall into what I believe we're discussing as "high-end" or "boutique" cables. As such, I'm not going to use those spaghetti-thin grey interconnects with red and white molded ends, I'm not using white zip cord from Home Depot for speaker cables, and I don't use extension cord 16/3 SJT power cables when I can get very good cables for almost dirt cheap. By "good", I mean physically tough and built to last AND look good, not necessarily just the companies who advertise and are recognized the most. Examples are Canare (used by broadcast professionals around the world), Mogami, DH Labs, Blue Jeans, etc.

My "fire hose" power cables are all PS Audio that I got for around $40-75 each used off Audiogon. I assume Mark Levinson (Harman) thinks they're not necessary because they shipped their stuff with regular 'ol cords. But, I figured since I wired several dedicated 20A circuits when finishing my room (12 AWG wire), why not run it nice all the way to the equipment? And I LOVE the look of the behemoths. Audio is different for everyone. We should celbrate the fact that some members' systems sound outstanding without esoteric cables, while others dig "dressing" their systems up.

It saddens me that there seems to be two camps in this ongoing debate. The first are those who would never use upgraded cables because their logic tells them they're not worth it and even if they were given upgraded cables free of charge, they wouldn't use them because the outside world would think them idiots. The second are those who refuse to entertain the possibility that a cable can sound good if it doesn't cost a bunch of money; more $ always equals better sound. Neither makes sense to me.

So, I don't think one has to pay a bunch to get good quality. But, I also never expected to really hear a difference between cables, so maybe that's why I don't. I also don't hear a night and day improvement from my Levinson 332 amp over my old Adcom GFA-565's, but I don't care. I think the Levinson is a beautiful piece of industrial art that makes me happy every time I turn it on. I guess I'm in the camp of make it sound great first, then make it look beautiful too. I enjoy good sound and good looks.

If we really want to talk about what makes HUGE improvements to sound without spending much at all, we could talk about room acoustics. I'd rather have a modest system in a great room than a $100,000 system in a terrible room.

FWIW: Here are some PS power cables on Audiogon right now for $75 each:

http://pic3.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1321931502.jpg

Ian Mackenzie

12-03-2011, 06:28 AM

My 2 cents worth.

Common sense suggests you should budget proportionally within the laws of diminishing returns.

However if you had an infinantly short power cable, speaker cable and intereconnect you would find be it low fi or hi end the equipment components you own it has a house sound.

That is quite often deliberate by design. This is where the fun starts.

The ear candy (cables) help spice up the tonality of your system and those players in this industry know that.

Looking at it from a somewhat technical perspective most people dont release the importance of good termination like Cardas and WBT and Eichman make.

You should also clean the terminations regularly.

If you add snubbers to those noisey bridge rectifiers or better still put in low noise types an used a seperate mains supply circuit just for audio the special power cable is a bit pointless.

Robh3606

12-03-2011, 08:07 AM

Eaulive

12-03-2011, 10:36 AM

The bottom line, our expectations have such a strong and convincing effect that we are certain when we hear this or that. For example, if a forum member ships me his favorite cables and I hear no change over my typical cables it is likely due to the fact that I didn't expect there to be a difference.... conversely, he was hoping these cables would aid his search for audio nirvana... and when he installs them, they do.

Widget

There, no need to add more :applaud:

herki the cat

12-03-2011, 10:40 AM

:DJust for fun here is a CLIO measurement of an inexpensive 6' interconnect.Hello HerkiWe also make DC/DC converters that take the raw power from the solar bus and convert it to a more usable voltage. We use highspeed switching supplies to do it. There is noise from this that gets filtered. It's all about proper design. You can't depend on your power cord to do what should have been done from the begining. Hello Titanium Dome:behead: Off with his Head- Alice in Wonderland:DNot sure that this meant?:moon: What was all that badRob:)

[Quote Robh]... It's all about proper design. You can't depend on your power cord to do what should have been done from the begining...[Quote/]

I think you are refering to the magnificient design already executed in your "high speed switching converter" and i do agree.

Power conditioner are required to clean up AC Power for purchased Audio Components, and the Purpose of the Power Cord Filters is to clean up the Gossip between the Audio Components, especially the 14 KHz horizontal scan buss from the Television, & to a very useful extent, the noise from all the florescent lighting in the House. A 10 mH series inductor in a "Zero Surge Inc, Supressor" preceeds my " MIT inc.," power conditioner presenting a wide- band "five ohm shunt" across the AC power lines.

Note that the Zero Surge Inc,. Suppressor DOES NOT employ self- distructing MOV's which typically dump surge energy into the AC Power Green safety wire_ the third prong of the AC Power Connector. Under Writers Labs specify a strict limit of 5 milliamperes Max' into the green safety wire since a 6 milliampere shock is considered lethal to humans.

SEAWOLF97

12-03-2011, 10:56 AM

well, everybody has an opinion on this subject and these threads usually progress along the same lines.

Pierre Sprey , the self professed genius at MapleShade takes an alternate tact ... thinner is better.

thin speaker wire , thin interconnects

http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Clearview-Audio-Cables/departments/86/
http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Double-Helix-Speaker-Cables/products/83/

and I recall that in the catalog tips & tricks section he said ...(to paraphrase, since I can't find it)

"an 8 foot run of speaker wire sounds noticeably better than a 4 foot run"

although I can't remember the reasoning behind that one .... gives the electrons more room to accelerate ?

I do recall tho that when I was monetarily challenged in the 1970's , 4 solid copper wire telephone cable got used for long speaker runs ... and sounded just fine and that stuff is what ??... 22 gauge ??? don't recall any electron bottlenecks where some didn't get through. :crying:

full disclosure section: yes, I do use a cheap Furman power conditioner, seems to help with the random noises a little.

DavidF

12-03-2011, 12:48 PM

Cable and wire swapping is to me like tube swapping. To some it is an enjoyable pursuit of stasis that will never be attained. Likely these folks don't really want to attain stasis. Like a chef constantly reworking ingredients. Throw in a new turn table or digital source into the chain and that’s like the planets shifting in rotation around the sun. Time to realign the whole system. Start over again. What a way to spend a Saturday afternoon.

If you have the time and money, go for it. To me I just need the wire to perform its function. Otherwise it gets to be added distraction from projects needing more time and attention- audio related or otherwise.

Ian Mackenzie

12-03-2011, 01:31 PM

It's all about proper design. You can't depend on your power cord to do what should have been done from the begining

Absolutely.

Example: I recently bought a new Audiolab 8200cd CD player.

The moment I walked in the front door of the shop the retailor was talking to me like I had to understand what HIFI was about.

To cut long long story short the rep wouId not let me leave without borrowing a fancy power cord worth about $150.00 as he said I needed the lead to fully realise the potential of the new 8200cd.

In the manual of the 8200cd I read it has a very elaborate PS with 34 regulators. 14 are ultra low noise discrete designs combined with LC filtering for maximal interstage and RF isolation and lmost 250,000 bulk storage capacitance. The regulators around the ESS Sabre32 DAC use bulk de-coupling with organic ultra low ESR capacitors.

I played the machine with and without the fancy power lead. Having read the above my expectation was the power lead would make no difference. If anything I thought it sounded worse with the fancy power lead so it was returned.

*As it turns out this a quite a good CD player worthy of discussion elsewhere

Titanium Dome

12-03-2011, 01:34 PM

Hello Titanium Dome:behead: Off with his Head- Alice in Wonderland:D

Not sure that this meant?:moon: What was all that bad

Rob:)

I wanted to write ass-kickin' but I'd already cussed twice, so I used the butt (moon) smilie instead.

Titanium Dome

12-03-2011, 01:53 PM

Everyone's car runs better after it's been washed or detailed. Fact or perception?

I don't miss T-domes point. But then it is a Kia. Alloys are there for "looks", not for strength or conservation of un-sprung weight. And the driver feels better because they like the look. I like a shiny, freshly painted car, too, but doubt that increases the performance in a measurable way.

but improvement offered by a a good alloy wheel (at least) is real just as much as a good tire improves handling over a round-and-black Cooper of other such crap.

What does "washed and detailed" mean?

:dont-know:

Besides being several hundred dollars cheaper at MSRP, the Kia steel wheels (with 15 drilled holes) weigh less than the beefy alloys. I'd guess most people who opt for alloys, or add custom wheels are not thinking at all about unsprung weight or improved handling. They're buying the look. That doesn't negate the truth of what you're saying when done in a knowledgeable fashion, but the majority of buyers don't think about, understand, or apply the principles you note. Why that's just like a lot of cable and speaker wire buyers, too, right? :p

Of course, the car buyer and the stereo or HT buyer will be upsold by the sales associate, just like a McDonald's counter worker: "Do you want fries with that?"

"Do you want the alloys with that? They add a sporty look and really improve handling and mileage."

"Do you want the high quality interconnects, speaker cables, and power cord with that? You don't want a fine system handicapped by the wires being a weak link?

:rotfl: No matter which side you're on, it's pretty freaking hilarious what a little marketing and salesmanship can do. :D

Odd

12-03-2011, 01:56 PM

Speaker Wire The History By Roger Russell. Link (http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm)

More reading.

SPEAKER WIRE BY JOHN F. ALLEN. Link
(http://www.hps4000.com/pages/spksamps/speaker_wire.pdf)
Audio Interconnect Performance. Link (http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/46225/41567257.pdf)

pathfindermwd

12-03-2011, 03:20 PM

I wanted to chime in here because in my very minor audiophile pursuit I have read, then tried the twisted pair solution.

While I fully understand for myself that this is subjective perception, I believe it has helped - generally. The music seems cleaner, and the responses quicker. This cleaner response seems (to me) to also impart a "brighter" effect; not always something I appreciate already owning the L100t, which needs no help with this. Again, I understand that this is subjective, my friends see it differently, and I can see why, their systems sound great, and they use regular lamp cable, and they could afford- whatever. I have never gotten to play with their gear though.

I can perceive (not hear) a small change with it though in my system that I get to play with, and I can't really put it into words. But just because I lack words to express what I perceive, does not mean there is nothing to the perception...

Having explained that, I keep hearing that it's just electricity, and that take confuses me somewhat. I see it as a signal that must be kept clean. Twisted pair was made for clean signal (to be simplistic), and my understanding is that without it noise would enter the wire and garble data (in data applications). Given that we are talking about a positive and negative signal running together, it makes sense to me that this close two way traffic could effect the signal, as well as other outside effects such as static electricity from the carpet. Again, I just don't understand why some sum it all up as just an electrical signal, to me it is an electrical-data signal. I remember that years ago they talked about putting data signal through the wires in your home but they couldn't do it, too much noise they said. I am sure that it's obvious to some that I am not well educated in the electrical sciences, but according to what I do understand this just seems like common sense, that it's not the electricity that I am trying to keep clean, but the musical data riding in that signal, and that is more difficult to quantify because we can't also see or smell the perfection of it. But, we may still be able to perceive it, and that is not easy to explain either!

I just have two examples i want to give about this perception to make my point better understood. Sometimes when I listen to AM radio a song will come on, a song I have heard many time before. But suddenly I am taken back to a memory of when I was a kid and my older siblings would listen to music, the song sounds as I remember it, enough to instigate a memory. It doesn't happen to me when I hear that song on XM radio though, why? There is just something about the way music sounds on AM, can't really explain it, but we all know that music does sound different on AM.

Second, some of you may have gotten that email that explains that if you jumble up letters in a word, but keep the first and last letter in the same place, you can still read it!

Do you know what I am syaing?

Your brain is so capable, it can still make sense of a slightly garbled word. So if you can still read it, does it then really matter if it's misspelled? Is it possible that even if your audio signal is a little garbled, your brain is still able to interpret/fill in the missing information to an extent that you are not completely aware of it? Some might call this pointless if your brain can still read it, others would claim that it matters if it's misspelled. I think this is really at the crux of the argument here today, that your brain, not your ears can compensate for an unclean signal to the extent that what your ears hear become irrelevant.

So is (multi) twisted pair better? I don't know. But when I use it, I know that theory behind it should contribute to it for the better (as I listen to my mp3's also knowing full well that it's less than perfect). My point is simply that just because your brain is so capable that it can make sense of music filled with noise (instantly), is no reason to not try to eliminate the noise/imperfection, and have the best sound possible. This effort will vary by the individual, but I think we could all agree that it's a worthy effort! Perhaps cables is not the best use of the effort, but not an unreasonable one either.

Many out there in the world cannot understand the money we spend on this equipment, or any system over a hundred dollars for that matter. I have offered my lower end speakers to family members, and they want them, but they won't spend a hundred bucks for a receiver, go figure? They have the same opinion as some that say there is no difference in speaker cable, only their measurement device is not an ohm meter, it's a dollar sign, and for them, the change in sound in slight, if they can even hear it while they are dancing around the house listening to a cheap JVC bookshelf. So who is right? I have no idea. I remember being a kid and listening to the new song on a cheap car radio, and being happy. Music is not all this equipment, this equipment just aims to serve it better, and whatever the effort, we always seem to fall short of the perfect execution, but for us, at least it's not a matter of not trying. I admire that.

Except for $1k cables, that's just silly! :D

DS-21

12-03-2011, 05:09 PM

Thanks. That has been my position as well. Yet it seems that every system at a show has massive wires & cords. Heck, even the instructions for the JBL Everests indicate the advice to use good wiring:

That line in the manual is way more likely than not simply a marketing aid to help dealers push what is by far their highest-margin product, boutique wires. And to make potential dealers think that JBL is on their side. After all, JBL wants their dealers to thrive, and no dealer wants to carry a product with a manual that advises customers to stay away from the highest-margin parts in their store.

And those higher margins are why boutique wires have such violent defenders on the internet and elsewhere. People generally don't like others talking badly about their cash cows, even when "talking badly" is merely "making accurate statements."

My "fire hose" power cables are all PS Audio that I got for around $40-75 each used off Audiogon. I assume Mark Levinson (Harman) thinks they're not necessary because they shipped their stuff with regular 'ol cords. But, I figured since I wired several dedicated 20A circuits when finishing my room (12 AWG wire), why not run it nice all the way to the equipment? And I LOVE the look of the behemoths.

You've got it: the boutique wires and such are simply tribal jewelry. They are visual signifiers to let others know one is in the "audiophile" (one may say "audiophool") tribe. Nothing more, nothing less.

Interesting how widely aesthetic preferences vary. Audio equipment is more often than not an eyesore to me, and actually distracting from the music. So I hide my gear to the extent possible, and want all visible wires to be as thin and flexible as possible. I also sought out "interconnects" made out of mini-coax, and speaker wire with mil-spec PTFE (the thinnest available) insulation in only the gauge needed given the length of the run and impedance minima of the loudspeakers. And then I cover the speaker wires in the Techflex variety that best matches the surface they're on, so as to maximally blend them into their surroundings.

But, bleating to the contrary, from an end user perspective, with a very few exceptions (bad practices, basically, such as using 20' of 30AWG thin magnet wire on speakers with 2Ω impedance minima) the only variables on which audio wires differ are things like aesthetics, flexibility, durability (good strain relief, etc), and very rarely connector quality. Sonics is simply not part of it.

Looking at it from a somewhat technical perspective most people dont release the importance of good termination like Cardas and WBT and Eichman make.

If you're talking about loudspeakers, from a technical standpoint all of the boutique junk you mention is massively inferior to a $5 SpeakOn. The boutique junk is not inherently insulated, has no inherent strain relief, does not positively lock in place or offer a quick-disconnect, and can only carry 1/2 a channel per connection (which can easily lead to mis-wired connections, for example if someone disconnects a speaker to vacuum around it. The boutique spades or bananas probably have higher resistance, too. The boutique stuff is just plain primitive, really.

So if one really cares about termination quality on loudspeakers, get rid of the binding posts entirely and use SpeakOns.

As for RCA connectors, there is basically no variance as long as they fit snug and were solders/crimped/screwed properly to the wire. That said, some may prefer "locking" RCA connectors. When I was young and ignorant I bought a pair of Esoteric Audio Artus 2m "interconnect" wires - for twelve hundred bucks! - and one could pick up a very heavy amp from the RCA cord because the barrel of the RCA twists to lock the thing down tight, while still making it easy to remove the wire. (Twist to unlock, pull off.)

Eaulive

12-03-2011, 06:13 PM

If you're talking about loudspeakers, from a technical standpoint all of the boutique junk you mention is massively inferior to a $5 SpeakOn. The boutique junk is not inherently insulated, has no inherent strain relief, does not positively lock in place or offer a quick-disconnect, and can only carry 1/2 a channel per connection (which can easily lead to mis-wired connections, for example if someone disconnects a speaker to vacuum around it. The boutique spades or bananas probably have higher resistance, too. The boutique stuff is just plain primitive, really.

So if one really cares about termination quality on loudspeakers, get rid of the binding posts entirely and use SpeakOns.

:applaud:Amen to that! 53904

Mr. Widget

12-03-2011, 09:03 PM

well, everybody has an opinion on this subject and these threads usually progress along the same lines.I was careful not to state any opinions in my posts, 25 and 26. But it does seem that most people enjoy sharing their opinions rather than actually thinking about the issues, but what the heck... :bouncy:

Speaker Wire The History By Roger Russell. Link (http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm)

More reading.

SPEAKER WIRE BY JOHN F. ALLEN. Link
(http://www.hps4000.com/pages/spksamps/speaker_wire.pdf)
Audio Interconnect Performance. Link (http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/46225/41567257.pdf)

Thank you for those, I read all of them and agree in principle with each... the solid conductor finding in long theater runs was particularly interesting, however I believe the questions I posed in post #26 are not considered as seriously as they should be... short of some people simply being deaf to certain audio anomalies, I can't think of another answer to the question of how two equally sincere and dedicated listeners can come up with polar opposite responses. It potentially answers how the Gordon Gow listening tests could be ignored as well as why people may buy into other seemingly illogical solutions.

Do you know what I am syaing?

Your brain is so capable, it can still make sense of a slightly garbled word. So if you can still read it, does it then really matter if it's misspelled? Is it possible that even if your audio signal is a little garbled, your brain is still able to interpret/fill in the missing information to an extent that you are not completely aware of it?I absolutely know what you are saying... it is something that Bose also understands and has profited from brilliantly. Seriously, they have studied this phenomenon and design their speakers to sound "good" to most people without crossing the cost threshold necessary to bring the performance (needlessly in their opinion) up to "our standards".

In the podcast that I linked above, John Atkinson mentions how classical music conductors don't have high quality stereos and they don't need them... they can "hear" the music by simply reading the score.

For years I have noticed that if I listen long enough to a new creation of mine, I can't be objective... my on-board filter set kicks in and EQs the sound... when I design a new system I listen for a few minutes and then try to leave for an extended period and then listen again... if upon initial listening I hear an anomaly I know I must rework the system. If I keep listening, the sound evens out and it sounds perfect, or closer to perfect... this is probably related to the "burn in" effect that many audiophile experience, but I am only speculating.

Widget

Mr. Widget

12-03-2011, 09:07 PM

That line in the manual is way more likely than not simply a marketing aid to help dealers push what is by far their highest-margin product, boutique wires. And to make potential dealers think that JBL is on their side. After all, JBL wants their dealers to thrive, and no dealer wants to carry a product with a manual that advises customers to stay away from the highest-margin parts in their store.I agree... being "in the industry" I have had candid conversations with several leading loudspeaker designers from many brands including some of Harman's... all agree that "normal wire" of adequate gauge is all that is required. Moreover if the wire changes the sound, use a different wire. Several do suggest twisted pair for it's slight theoretical superiority though likely inaudible in a typical system.

Widget

1audiohack

12-03-2011, 09:25 PM

Also, note that, each time, interconnects and speaker cables are handled or changed they do require a few days to break in! This complicates auditioning and comparing cable performance.

Please believe me when I say no dissrespect intended, but, I cannot even begin to wrap my brain around that.

I have heard and seen that stated many times by many people. I believe I understand the atomic face structure of the solidified element and can visualize the four shells with the outer having a lonely electron available for travel making copper by nature a good conductor. What I cannot grasp is how the free electron travel efficiency improves in any way over time and is disturbed by the handling and or moving of the conductor. No one has been able to explain this to me to my undrerstanding and or satisfaction. It must be my failing.

Rob, your Clio measurement of that cable is most disturbing, see that wiggle at the end? That hurts my ears just looking at it AND why have you smoothed the phase response to such an extreme?!? Your supposed to be looking at that not in full degree's but in seconds! Jeeze.

Allanvh5150

12-03-2011, 09:49 PM

yup, the bonds of the electron to the nucleus will not change no matter what "normal " things you do to the cable. Or maybe i missed something, does the copper change into some other magical metal after a few hours of use? :blink:

Ducatista47

12-04-2011, 12:15 AM

I also sought out "interconnects" made out of mini-coax, and speaker wire with mil-spec PTFE (the thinnest available) insulation in only the gauge needed given the length of the run and impedance minima of the loudspeakers.
Not quite. Magnet wire insulation, even double coated, would be thinner by one or more orders of magnitude. It makes great speaker wire as long as it does not need to be flexible.

Ian Mackenzie

12-04-2011, 12:56 AM

So if one really cares about termination quality on loudspeakers, get rid of the binding posts entirely and use SpeakOns.

In the case of almost all consumer audio amplifiers binding posts are standard and enable the use of a wide range of cables. Speakon is NOT.

Most now adhere to EC standards. Most consumers twist the stranded cable and then attempt to tighten the binding post down on the strands. It comes loose and the contact quickly oxidizes.

This is not satisfactory and I refer to the link below.

This type of termination is not dissimilar to a car battery termination. The principle is the same. Large contact area, a good conductor and pressure.

The speakon is a Pro audio twist on / off connector .

http://www.cheshireaudio.co.uk/acatalog/Spade_Connectors.html

Allanvh5150

12-04-2011, 01:42 AM

IMO the type of insulation on Speaker cables and interconnects, is not really worth worrying about. Good conductor size and good connectors are they key. Use inferior cables at RF frequencies and you will run into problems. Get cables out of Asia on Ebay. Some look very "high end" and no one will know but you. They perform perfectly fine and only cost a few dollars.

Allan.

herki the cat

12-04-2011, 05:53 AM

well, everybody has an opinion on this subject and these threads usually progress along the same lines. Pierre Sprey , the self professed genius at MapleShade takes an alternate tact....thinner is better. thin speaker wire.... [http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Double-Helix-Speaker-Cables/products/83/.... I do recall tho that when I was monetarily challenged in the 1970's , four solid copper wire telephone cable got used for long speaker runs ... and sounded just fine and that stuff is what ??... 22 gauge ???.... full disclosure section: yes, I do use a cheap Furman power conditioner, seems to help with the random noises a little.

"Originaly posted by SEAWOLF97;324441".... was Edited by herki to retain only the comments "on speaker thin wires." Mr. Bruce Brissen, CEO of MIT Inc., explains in his patents " how the audio signal magnetic field shrinks and crowds towards the center of the conductor as the signal frequency decreases from 20,000 Hz to the sub bass.

This by definition is an inductor shunting the cable which deteriorates performance as the audio frequency decreases towards the sub bass, so a very thin wire or thin film strip conductor does not pressent much of a core for magnetic field to crowd into. There is reason to beleive these very thin wires and film conductors do work to some extent. Please see my post #60, this thread page for more info.herki[quote/]

Ian Mackenzie

12-04-2011, 08:59 AM

It may be useful to understand that we are not dealing with constant frequency or FM modulation voltage source.

In most but not all the source impediance of the amplifier increases with frequency. This is a result of a fall in feedback as frequency increase and open loop gain.

The speaker load and the cable form part of that feedback loop. As most people are away the speaker load is not a constant impediance with frequency and nor is the cable.

Most but not all amplifiers have a L inductor in series and or an RC network shunted on the output for stability.

Some cables have boxes at either end with additional networks

What does this mean? Dependng on the ampifier and the speaker load the introduction of the speaker cable as part of that load characteristic may impart some changes to the function of the feedback network. Feedback is essentially and error correction mechanism that compares a small amount of the output with the input of the amplifier and is used to contract gain, flatten frequency reponse and reduce certain types of distortion.

Can you hear the effect of the cable ? In a well designed amplifier its unlikely but you cannot discount the possibility entirely.

One of the types of distortion we are interested in minmising is intermodulation distortion. This has the effect of blurring the sound.

Some people hold a theory that a single cable from the ampifier to the louspeaker can introduce intermodulation distortion.

Because the feedback point is taken before the end of the cable at the speaker end the feedback is unable to detect any differences in the signal intermodulation distortion or the load characteristic.

This is quite an interesting point because the physical point that feeback is taken inside the amplifier is critical to optimal performance of the amplifier.

JBL talk about this in their manuals but dont get too excited.

Therefore separate cables for connection directly to the woofer and mid + high frequency drivers may offer an advantage.

The moral of the story is keep your cables as short as possible.

herki the cat

12-04-2011, 10:37 AM

Speaker wire, inter connectors, and upgraded power cords (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?32152-High-cost-Speaker-wire-interconnectors-and-upgraded-power-cords)....Ca Sufi Com Ca, maintenant

I would like to see a new Thread on the subject of"How we Hear, hearingTrauma & Impairment.
These items concerns our returning Military Personnel exposed to Explosives, and Careless
use of Fire Arms, Old Age Atrophy & Loud Junk Listening Exposures. It is awesome how we do not experience any warning pain or bleeding like when we have a cut finger etc, but only sometimes, immediate loud ringing which usually goes away.

One Parting Shot On Cables

I am not pushing cables!! You can't afford them anyway. Cables may be ok in professional applications like film production studios where the speaker system design can be cordinated by professional application engineers and the speaker manufacturer and the cable designer.... More on this point at the end of this post.

I really doubt they should be used in our home applications unless the speaker manufacturer can recomend them. You should use only what ever the speaker design engineer used to voice his speaker configuration.

The history of cables

According to MIT Inc., patents.... a thin copper pipe 3l8 inch dia works well only because there is no core in the pipe for the signal current to present the important parent audio- signal current magnetic field internally.

Both Mr.Polk and Mr. Brisson recognized this fact. Polk did produce a good speaker cable featuring a very flexible thin-wall 3/8 inch plastic pipe with a twin cross hatch woven +/- polarity jacket of insulated conductors for two channel stereo. The only problem was excessive shunt capacitor acting within the cable causing feedback amplifier instability; the solution was the Zo-Bel RC shunt on the amplifier output terminals, only if the amplifier was equiped with extended high frequency phase compensation.

Mr. Brisson's solution, while originally at Monster Cable, was to take a very small rope of nylon (?) and together with his son, wrap many side by side turns around this long rope, slowly stepping out of the door into the street. This became Monster cable.

Mr. Brisson walked across the street to HP Instruments & found a Spectrum Analyzer capable of measuring phase and amplitude from 10 Hz to 1000 mg Hz including the Audio Band. With this, Mr. Brissen could do every thing to fine tune any cable; we had these all over RCA Camden.

Mr. Brisson's next step was to wrap a spiral lay of many strands of #30 wire over the nylon rope to inductively slow down the upper frequency spectrum to at least 500 Hz. A second spiral overlay of 15 strands of #21 wire completed the cable from 500 Hz to maybe 50 Hz, and it did sound great..This was one of the first MIT patents.

I recommend studying Bruce Brisson's patents to see how MIT Inc., And Transparent Audio Inc, a fierce competitor of MIT Inc., became extremely successful essentially with similar cable technology.

How can a very expensive product that has grown since 1970 be considered a sham by so many intelligent brilliant audio engineers & the (unwashed)... just kiding... enjoy a good laugh.

Avatar sound was recorded with unobtanium speaker cables from "MIT Interface Technologies Inc."

The SkyWalker Lucas post production sound venue is 100% equipped with MIT cables which cost $20,000 each. The SkyWalker Lucas theater at SkyWalker Ranch in Calafornia is also equipped with aQty' of (40) power amplifiers back stage feeding a Qty' of (40) JBL Speaker Drivers via 40 foot long MIT cables of the same unobtanium type.

Not to worry__ the Skywalker Lucas instalation is a "cost no object,"professional business venture. In the following "MIT at the Movies" presentation : "Link," you can view the awsome engineering history of Avatar's making.....Highly recommended.

Sky Walker has more than 10 Acadamy Award Winning Films with "MIT-Interface" If you enjoyed the Magnificient Skywalker Sound, you must see how they did it in:
MITat theMOVIES @http://www.mitcables.co.nz/pdf/mit_movies.pdf (http://www.mitcables.co.nz/pdf/mit_movies.pdf)
To see the MIT Inc., Engineering and Products used in the fantastic SKYWALKER" AVATAR" film production.
please click this link:http://www.mitcables.co.nz/pdf/mit_movies.pdf (http://www.mitcables.co.nz/pdf/mit_movies.pdf) and Please scrole down through13 pages in this awesome clip to see the MIT Inc., story. Enjoy this clip

mit_movies.pdf (http://www.mitcables.co.nz/pdf/mit_movies.pdf) herki[quote/]

Mr. Widget

12-04-2011, 11:48 AM

I recommend studying Bruce Brissen's patents to see how MIT Inc., And Transparent Audio Inc, a fierce competitor of MIT Inc., became extremely successful essentially with similar cable technology. How can a very expensive product that has grown since 1970 be considered a sham by so many intelligent brilliant audio engineers & the (unwashed)... just kiding... enjoy a good laugh.

Please find the link on the MIT Inc., Engineering and Products used in the fantastic "Avatar" film production.herki[quote/]I've watched them build their cables at their factory here in Northern California... and I have had them in my system. I agree that these folks put a lot of effort and expense into building their cables, but as I said in post#25... these act as networks that may or may not actually "sound better", but regardless, as I mentioned, according to the speaker designers I've talked to, you are just messing around with their designs.

But thats an extreme description of Skin effect (inversely!)!

I've worked with microwave transmitters ... Did you read the links that Odd posted in #46? Check out the John F. Allen link.

But like I said way way back in this thread, if you can't hear an improvement, don't pay the extra money for this stuff!I guess you didn't listen to the podcast that I linked earlier... "hearing" an improvement may not be enough either.

Widget

Allanvh5150

12-04-2011, 11:49 AM

Hi power hi Freq coax has been using pipes for years, a lot of years. Hi current and hi frequency likes to travel down the outside of a conductor. The tiddling amounts of voltage and current that audio uses, is not worth the bother.

Allan.

DS-21

12-04-2011, 02:27 PM

Not quite. Magnet wire insulation, even double coated, would be thinner by one or more orders of magnitude. It makes great speaker wire as long as it does not need to be flexible.

Flexibility is a virtue, though. A few years ago I bought some 14AWG solid core "audiophile" speaker wire. (I paid basically the scrap value of the copper, though before the firm was bought out I think it went for $50 or so per foot.) It is unwieldy and annoying to use. Now I only use it inside cabinets.

Also, how thick does magnet wire come? For monoblocs behind speakers that might not matter, but for more typical installations (say, 10'-20' runs) with typical speakers (8Ω nominal, 3-4Ω minimum, impedance) one should really use 16AWG, or at the outside 18AWG.

In the case of almost all consumer audio amplifiers binding posts are standard and enable the use of a wide range of cables. Speakon is NOT.

For those who really care about superior connections, equipment can be modded. After all, audiophools do all kinds of pointless mods to their various parts. At least this one would provide some utility.

Or one can use "professional" amplification.

Most now adhere to EC standards. Most consumers twist the stranded cable and then attempt to tighten the binding post down on the strands. It comes loose and the contact quickly oxidizes.

This is not satisfactory and I refer to the link below.

Actually, that typically works just fine, so long as one is careful to ensure that stray strands don't end up shorting terminals together. (Yet another issue precluded by use of SpeakOns...) The oxidation just isn't an issue. The only difference between bare wire and a banana is that a banana is more convenient to take out/plug in. The only difference between bare wire and a spade is...with a spade you have to buy a bit of metal to put between the post and the wire.

The speakon is a Pro audio twist on / off connector.

"Pro" audio versus "home" audio is more a marketing distinction than anything else. People on a JBL forum should really know that! The bottom line is, the SpeakOn is a better connector, for the above-ennumerated reasons. Now, is there a sonic difference between a SpeakOn-terminated speaker wire and spades/bananas/pins/tinned-wire/bare-wire? No. But the SpeakOn has practical advantages over the other ones. And they're cheap. So (especially on DIY projects) there's really no reason to futz with antiquated and comparatively fussy "hifi" connectors.

tom1356

12-04-2011, 02:28 PM

I have a pair of B & W Silver signatures. They use silver throughout. speaker wires, voice coils, inductors, capacitors, biding posts, everything.
If I substitute a very high quality copper wire for the factory silver ones there is a dramatic and noticeable degradation of the sound.
I'm talking about copper wires that are about $60 per ft each side.

Be thankful you can't hear a difference or figure out why.

Mr. Widget

12-04-2011, 02:34 PM

Ian Mackenzie

12-04-2011, 03:04 PM

Flexibility is a virtue, though.

For those who really care about superior connections, equipment can be modded. After all, audiophools do all kinds of pointless mods to their various parts. At least this one would provide some utility.

Or one can use "professional" amplification.

"Pro" audio versus "home" audio is more a marketing distinction than anything else. People on a JBL forum should really know that!

I hope you are a better engineer then you are a banker!

tom1356

12-04-2011, 04:29 PM

Thank god I'm deaf!

Or is it something else.:hmm:

Widget

You seem to be happy with your system and I am happy with mine so it's all good.

Eaulive

12-04-2011, 04:39 PM

I have a pair of B & W Silver signatures. They use silver throughout. speaker wires, voice coils, inductors, capacitors, biding posts, everything.
If I substitute a very high quality copper wire for the factory silver ones there is a dramatic and noticeable degradation of the sound.
I'm talking about copper wires that are about $60 per ft each side.

Your B&Ws must be broken and you need the high resolution of copper to hear it :rotfl:

DavidF

12-04-2011, 07:23 PM

Allanvh5150

12-04-2011, 09:17 PM

I guess the Silver verse copper debate will go on forever. Although silver is a better conductor than copper, it is only marginally so. !.59 x 10 -8 as opposed to 1.68 x 10 -8. Some people have referred to silver cables as an "emotional" upgrade.....

Jumping back to using pipes, it was discovered way back that HF likes to travel down the outside of a conductor. Quite simply, the metal in the middle of the conductor, is a waste of money so they started using pipes. It is not that it is better, it just makes good economic sense.

Allan.

Uncle Paul

12-04-2011, 10:01 PM

Jumping back to using pipes, it was discovered way back that HF likes to travel down the outside of a conductor. Quite simply, the metal in the metal is a waste of money so they started using pipes. It is not that it is better, it just makes good economic sense.

It's important to note that the frequencies where this takes place is WAY above the audio frequency range.

I'm happy to be one of those people who either are objective enough or deficient enough in hearing to tell the difference between cables given that they conduct well and don't introduce ill effects due to inductance or capacitance (or some as yet undiscovered "ance"). I stick to well designed basic solutions and prefer to spend my money in areas that get me more mileage for the buck (like more music).

Titanium Dome

12-04-2011, 10:11 PM

I've heard it said, "You can't enjoy music, sex, or dope without a fat pipe."* Perhaps with all three, Nirvana can be reached.

*(I might have been the one who said that. It's hard to remember.) :hyp:

DS-21

12-05-2011, 08:18 AM

I hope you are a better engineer then you are a banker!

I take it that means you don't have anything relevant and on topic to write. (But for the record, I am neither banker nor engineer.)

I have a pair of B & W Silver signatures. They use silver throughout. speaker wires, voice coils, inductors, capacitors, biding posts, everything.
If I substitute a very high quality copper wire for the factory silver ones there is a dramatic and noticeable degradation of the sound.
I'm talking about copper wires that are about $60 per ft each side.

Be thankful you can't hear a difference or figure out why.

No offense, but the only thing one can actually hear from a pair of B&W Silver Sigs is heaping excesses of midrange energy in the room, due to poor engineering. Here is a third-party measurement of their frequency response across the horizontal plane..

http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/BSSFIG08.jpg

Too bad B&W couldn't see fit to engineer a silver waveguide for the tweeter, to properly match the woofer's directivity in the crossover region...

(And yes, I've heard them.)

tom1356

12-05-2011, 09:23 AM

I take it that means you don't have anything relevant and on topic to write. (But for the record, I am neither banker nor engineer.)

No offense, but the only thing one can actually hear from a pair of B&W Silver Sigs is heaping excesses of midrange energy in the room, due to poor engineering. Here is a third-party measurement of their frequency response across the horizontal plane..

http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/BSSFIG08.jpg

Too bad B&W couldn't see fit to engineer a silver waveguide for the tweeter, to properly match the woofer's directivity in the crossover region...

(And yes, I've heard them.)

No offense taken. I love heaps of midrange energy. That's where the music lives.

SEAWOLF97

12-05-2011, 11:06 AM

You are invited to examine a sober conclusion update of this awesome subject in post # 59, page 2 of this thread.

If one was to review this thread and count how many times that you've mentioned "MIT",
well one conclusion comes to mind...

hope I'm wrong...and pls don't take this as some kind of attack.

maybe you are just a very very very happy customer ?

(I did read the now deleted comment abt how the MIT guy owned ALL cable and speaker wire
patents and thought it somewhat bogus tho)

Ian Mackenzie

12-05-2011, 01:06 PM

A lot of people say the same thing everytime they read JBL and that is why they don't post here. I mean look what they did with the brand

Maybe Herki The Cat is right is right while the audio hoards look at him stupid and poke faces much the way the senate committee look at each other every time they meet to raise the ceiling of the national debt level. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/01/debt-ceiling-deal-reached_n_905841.html

I own an amplifier with hollow core cable in it and I have no reason to believe it sounds bad and no it does not have speakon terminals.

In this application the internal cables are so short as to not need termination networks that I wrote about in an earlier post.

This is perhaps the most useful post of the thread as its pretty well acknowledged that hollow core cables present an ideal audio conductor.

So among the war of words here is MIT again.

Unfortunately where there is money to be made a lot of wanna be's get in on the act and the substance of an original product becomes less obvious.

In the mean time the hoards will continue to drive Wal Mart sales

The history of cables

According to MIT Inc., patents.... a thin copper pipe 3l8 inch dia works well only because there is no core in the pipe for the signal current to present the important parent audio- signal current magnetic field internally.

Both Mr.Polk and Mr. Brisson recognized this fact. Polk did produce a good speaker cable featuring a very flexible thin-wall 3/8 inch plastic pipe with a twin cross hatch woven +/- polarity jacket of insulated conductors for two channel stereo. The only problem was excessive shunt capacitor acting within the cable causing feedback amplifier instability; the solution was the Zo-Bel RC shunt on the amplifier output terminals, only if the amplifier was equiped with extended high frequency phase compensation.

Mr. Brisson's solution, while originally at Monster Cable, was to take a very small rope of nylon (?) and together with his son, wrap many side by side turns around this long rope, slowly stepping out of the door into the street. This became Monster cable.

Mr. Brisson walked across the street to HP Instruments & found a Spectrum Analyzer capable of measuring phase and amplitude from 10 Hz to 1000 mg Hz including the Audio Band. With this, Mr. Brissen could do every thing to fine tune any cable; we had these all over RCA Camden.

Mr. Brisson's next step was to wrap a spiral lay of many strands of #30 wire over the nylon rope to inductively slow down the upper frequency spectrum to at least 500 Hz. A second spiral overlay of 15 strands of #21 wire completed the cable from 500 Hz to maybe 50 Hz, and it did sound great..This was one of the first MIT patents.

I recommend studying Bruce Brisson's patents to see how MIT Inc., And Transparent Audio Inc, a fierce competitor of MIT Inc., became extremely successful essentially with similar cable technology.

How can a very expensive product that has grown since 1970 be considered a sham by so many intelligent brilliant audio engineers & the (unwashed)... just kiding... enjoy a good laugh.

Avatar sound was recorded with unobtanium speaker cables from "MIT Interface Technologies Inc."

The SkyWalker Lucas post production sound venue is 100% equipped with MIT cables which cost $20,000 each. The SkyWalker Lucas theater at SkyWalker Ranch in Calafornia is also equipped with aQty' of (40) power amplifiers back stage feeding a Qty' of (40) JBL Speaker Drivers via 40 foot long MIT cables of the same unobtanium type.

Not to worry__ the Skywalker Lucas instalation is a "cost no object,"professional business venture. In the following "MIT at the Movies" presentation : "Link," you can view the awsome engineering history of Avatar's making.....Highly recommended.

Sky Walker has more than 10 Acadamy Award Winning Films with "MIT-Interface" If you enjoyed the Magnificient Skywalker Sound, you must see how they did it in

Lee in Montreal

12-05-2011, 02:28 PM

No offense taken. I love heaps of midrange energy. That's where the music lives.

You have a BOSE? :D

richluvsound

12-05-2011, 03:01 PM

You are invited to examine a sober conclusion update of this awesome subject in post # 59, page 2 of this thread. [Quote/]

I'm with herki and Pavlov .... just ask the latter's dog . Sound and colour are purely subjective .
If you really want to get an objective opinion of how your system sounds ,get a professional musician to listen to it . :D

Rolf

12-05-2011, 03:26 PM

I'm with herki and Pavlov .... just ask the latter's dog . Sound and colour and the purely subjective .
If you really want to get an objective opinion of how your system sounds ,get a professional to listen to it . :D

And who is the professional to judge our systems? :blink:. Some like this and some like that. (The professionals) No, it's all up to us ... and the equipment we use and are happy fore.

Edit: Post gone?

richluvsound

12-05-2011, 03:48 PM

Sorry , I missed a word out ! :(

tom1356

12-05-2011, 04:03 PM

You have a BOSE? :D

Now I'm offended. :)

Lee in Montreal

12-05-2011, 04:10 PM

Now I'm offended. :)

:D

herki the cat

12-05-2011, 07:13 PM

If one was to review this thread and count how many times that you've mentioned "MIT", well one conclusion comes to mind...hope I'm wrong...and pls don't take this as some kind of attack. maybe you are just a very very very happy customer ? (I did read the now deleted comment abt how the MIT guy owned ALL cable and speaker wire patents and thought it somewhat bogus tho)

Wrong on all counts, and I am not the customer. SkyWalker Studios is the happy customer who used Qty of (40) MIT Cables costing $20,000 each plus several MIT "Z" Series Power Conditioners & "Z" Power Cords to up grade SKYWalker for filming AVATAR. This also required considerable engineeering from Mr. Brisson MIT CEO. I submit that "We are not qualified to fool with this expensive machinery at home!" This is big buisness described by Mr. Tim Mc Govern Direct of Enginering Sky, Walker Sound in Link http://www.mitcables.co.nz/pdf/mit_movies.pdf (http://www.mitcables.co.nz/pdf/mit_movies.pdf)

Triumph Don

12-05-2011, 08:21 PM

This is a good read from a long time ago:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Allanvh5150

12-05-2011, 08:31 PM

Well I guess if I was silly enough to pay that sort of coin for cables, I would be exclaiming how brilliant they were. There is nothing magical about cables at audio frequencies. At RF they take on a totally different life. Sized for the right current capability, insulated for the right impedance load etc etc, cable is just cable.

Allan.

DS-21

12-05-2011, 09:09 PM

You have a BOSE? :D

Many Bose speakers exhibit greater fidelity in the midrange than the typical poorly-engineered 7" 2-way, of which the B&W Silver Sig is one...\

Wrong on all counts, and I am not the customer. SkyWalker Studios is the happy customer who used Qty of (40) MIT Cables costing $20,000 each plus several MIT "Z" Series Power Conditioners & "Z" Power Cords to up grade SKYWalker for filming AVATAR.

How much do you think Skywalker Studios actually paid for all that silly wire?

I'm guessing MIT's marketing department covered most of the freight. After all, they're the ones who benefit from being able to brag that Skywalker Studios is using their silly wires!

Allanvh5150

12-05-2011, 09:13 PM

Cant really say the cables are silly, just the prices. :blink:

Robh3606

12-05-2011, 09:35 PM

Many Bose speakers exhibit greater fidelity in the midrange than the typical poorly-engineered 7" 2-way, of which the B&W Silver Sig is one...\

Post some measurements I would like to see them. From the ones I have seen I kinda doubt it.

Rob:)

Ducatista47

12-05-2011, 10:33 PM

Flexibility is a virtue, though. A few years ago I bought some 14AWG solid core "audiophile" speaker wire. (I paid basically the scrap value of the copper, though before the firm was bought out I think it went for $50 or so per foot.) It is unwieldy and annoying to use. Now I only use it inside cabinets.

Also, how thick does magnet wire come? For monoblocs behind speakers that might not matter, but for more typical installations (say, 10'-20' runs) with typical speakers (8Ω nominal, 3-4Ω minimum, impedance) one should really use 16AWG, or at the outside 18AWG.

A quick search found double insulated magnet wire to at least 10AWG. Five lbs, 160 feet, $99.03. At $50 per foot, that would be $8000. Nice markup... When I last checked a couple of years ago, most gauges of magnet wire were about $20 a pound, the same as this spool.

Magnet wire may be unyielding and may not be pretty to some, but I feel it sounds as good as anything I have heard. Sonically, it gets out of the way just fine. Materially, it stays where you put it. Visually, I personally find it better looking than most high end electronics (overdone and in bad taste). It has a form follows function charm, unadorned truthfulness, and utter simplicity to its credit. Then again I enjoy exposed transformers, so I am out in the fringe somewhere as compared to most audio equipment buyers. Or perhaps I am just old school.

Bonus: If you openly route beefy magnet wire - different colors, if you wish - and bend it where you need to, it exudes a distinct steampunk charm. A dash of Retrotronics. Follow it to the next room and you expect to find Nicola Tesla standing there.

Mr. Widget

12-05-2011, 10:37 PM

While on the one hand, I suppose we should be thankful that people are generally being polite and no one is going off on other Forum members... I think it is too bad that this subject which is quite interesting is only being looked at superficially, anecdotally, and with all previously held biases intact and few if any minds open enough to alternative possibilities.

Widget

Ducatista47

12-05-2011, 11:13 PM

Widget, all true. But what do you expect from a classic beating a dead horse topic? Only more dead horse beating, which is at least greatly preferable to beating live animals. Nice links Odd supplied. At least I can take that away with me from all this fine prose.

Ian Mackenzie

12-06-2011, 01:48 AM

Post some measurements I would like to see them. From the ones I have seen I kinda doubt it.

Rob:)Rob,

What we need is some RCL measurements of cables and phase shift .

Can Clio do that?

If it could then you could calculate a suitable terminating network in LEAP to compensate for the RCL of the cable much like the MIT stuff.

None of this is rocket science its just a cse of how you decide to think about it

Of a more subjective note can anyone hear the difference b/n tinned and un tinned copper wire.

Try then compare to silver coated wire. I read somewhere that the polish or smoothness of the tinning is the key as the electrons speed along the surface of the conductor.

Are those unbreakable ultra nerdy speakons available in silver plating or gold plating? Muhahahah:D

Ah one more thing. If your Dorg (k9) was to chew on your grand prized cables and they ended up trashed but sounded better (those expectations) how would you explain it to the Dog trainer? I guess you would have to call it a sub woofer cable after that!

Ian

Robh3606

12-06-2011, 04:48 AM

Hello Ian

I was talking about the reference to the Bose speakers being better in the midrange. I should have clarified that as it was off topic. As far as CLIO is concerned and RCL measurements it can actually although depending on the values in the cables I would want to use a better meter.

Asside from that I can easilly measure phase and the shift is insignificant in the low cost cable I measured. I have actually measured several and it really didn't matter. The amount of inductance and capacitance was simply not worth worring about looking at FR and the phase shift in the measurements. Phase in Red FR in Green

herki the cat

12-06-2011, 06:36 AM

.... The problem is that transparency is difficult to prove,... I suspect that the electrons coming out an ultra pure silver cable are no different from those going to a light bulb socket at the end of a lamp cord.

Well, you could say: .... "The problem has to do with the hardware propogating or transporting electrons to the speakers, and the ability of the loud speaker to convert electrons to sound."herki[Quote/]

herki the cat

12-06-2011, 08:11 AM

[QUOTE=Mr. Widget;324395;Post#25]....Do speaker cables and interconnects make a difference? The short answer is yes.... So, what is the best speaker cable? Not so fast..... I visited a high end audio cable manufacturer who demo'd a pair of loudspeaker cables with external networks... the advertising for these cables was a bunch on nonsense, but these $16K cables did subjectively "sound better" than a simple 14/2 twisted pair while demo-ing the music they chose. That said, these cables were designed for this system... the speakers and amps did sound their best with this cable, but I doubt a different brand of speakers would benefit from these cables, perhaps even a different model from the same brand would be a disappointment.Widget[Quote/]

I have mentioned before...." we are not qualified or equipped to fool with these expensive cables at home." Mr. Widget has verified this, in his post here. These esoteric products do require the same dealer's audio system components, especially the same speaker and the dealer's $10,0000 listening rooms all of which we are not likely to imitate at home, particularly our "mashed potato," domestic acoustic environment.

Hang in, have fun; Nothing is perfect. Heck, Even the huge old 1930's RCA Radiola with its TT & 78 rpm records was awesome. I do miss mine in our storm cellar, but not the dust storms of that era in Kansas. herki[Quote]

herki the cat

12-06-2011, 09:16 AM

How much do you think Skywalker Studios actually paid for all that silly wire?

I'm guessing MIT's marketing department covered most of the freight. After all, they're the ones who benefit from being able to brag that Skywalker Studios is using their silly wires!

Sky walker did pay for all the MIT hardware. MIT Interface CEO, Mr. Bruce Brisson invented the orignal cables, &
Sky Walker has more than 10 Acadamy Award Winning Films produced with "MIT-Interface" plus 'AVATAR"
which you can witness in the 12 page text of this link= http://www.mitcables.co.nz/pdf/mit_movies.pdf (http://www.mitcables.co.nz/pdf/mit_movies.pdf) .... describing Sky Walker's Executive's accounts of of MIT's CEO Bruce Brisson engineering contributions to Sky Walker Sound Dept Engineers and the installation of the MIT Interface hardware. herki[Quote/]

DS-21

12-06-2011, 09:32 AM

Cant really say the cables are silly, just the prices. :blink:

No, the wires are silly, at least with certain speakers. The one time I heard a difference with speaker wires was maybe 15 years ago, using those silly wires on a pair of Martin-Logans. (Don't remember if they were Quest-Z's or reQuests.) The difference was that with the silly wires with the dumb resistor boxes on them, the sound dulled and the treble disappeared. Measurement with an RTA showed attenuated treble compared to "normal" boutique wires (I think the brand was Tara Labs, but they were the standard wires that would sound no different from wires of another geometry, or for that matter coat hangers).

M-L electrostatic panels, remember, present an extremely low impedance in the treble. On a pair of speakers with a more typical impedance curve, performance differences will likely be de minimis. But in the one case where silly wires make a difference, that difference is more likely than not going to be in the direction of lower fidelity to the source material. Until I realized that the silly wires in fact made no difference on normal loudspeakers, I called them "MITrash" and assumed people liked them because they were senile, deaf old men who couldn't hear treble any more and therefore did not realize that their precious silly wires were in fact simply throwing their loudspeakers out of balance.

Also, I suspect that in the MIT-Skywalker Sound relationship, the flow of money is not neutral (free product), as I implied above. Rather, MIT more likely than not pays Skywalker Sound a healthy premium to be able to brag that their silly wires are used in a reputable studio. After all, the studio is indifferent but MIT gets a big marketing advantage. Note that MIT's own press releases* are very careful not to use a word indicating that Skywalker gave them money, such as "bought" or "purchased." Also, quotes from Skywalker personnel scrupulously avoid using any falsifiable terminology. They were clearly vetted by competent attorneys, probably from both sides. Though arguably MIT didn't get their money's worth, because the "technology" page of the Skywaker Sound website shows a bank of bog-standard ethernet wires. Perhaps that wasn't considered important in a sponsorship deal inked in the late-1990s. One suspects that if they sign a new deal, MIT's silly wires will appear on Skywalker's website. Blisters and all.

*See, e.g. http://www.mitcables.com/pdf/perfect_vision_pressrelease_mit_skywalker.pdf

Post some measurements I would like to see them. From the ones I have seen I kinda doubt it.

Rob:)

Consider any wide-band driver. It will not share the low-fidelity characteristic of all poorly-engineered 7" 2-ways, which is to say all of them that do not either load the tweeter in a waveguide or use the woofer cone as a waveguide a la Tannoy/KEF/Thiel: progressively narrowing response at the top of the woofer's passband, and then - BOOM - massive billows of upper midrange energy where the tweeter comes in. (See horizontal measurements of the B&W Silver Sig, supra). A spectrogram of that horizontal power response would resemble nothing so much as a mushroom cloud.

IMO, nothing says "badly canned music" like a mushroom cloud midrange power response. Especially when that mushroom cloud midrange is combined with the roller-coaster modal-region response inherent to 2.0-channel systems in domestic living rooms. It amazes me to no end that people will claim that non-issues like wires are oh so important, while they do nothing to fix the real and large-scale problems of room modes in the upper bass and loudspeakers with non-constant midrange power response. That to me suggests priorities fixed by canny marketing spin rather than by any kind of reasoned analysis.

Remember the highly material point that wires (and assorting "tweaks") are typically the highest-margin products in an audio dealer's inventory. IOW, wires are the audio analog to a car dealer's "undercoating" or a big box store's "extended warranty."

That one thing explains basically all of the variance of opinion on wires, which is basically a difference between people who blindly trust and people who start from first principles. And it also explains why nobody thought about them until Noel Lee came around and realized he could create a market niche: there was no money in them until the con men got involved.

Mr. Widget

12-06-2011, 09:50 AM

I have mentioned before...." we are not qualified or equipped to fool with these expensive cables at home." Mr. Widget has verified this, in his post here. These esoteric products do require the same dealer's audio system components, especially the same speaker and the dealer's $10,0000 listening rooms all of which we are not likely to imitate at home, particularly our "mashed potato," domestic acoustic environment.
I must admit I have a hard time understanding the point of many of your posts... but to clarify my point above, I was suggesting that the point of the demo I was given was to show me how wonderful the manufacturer's cables were. However it was obvious to me, these guys went back to their work bench and tweaked this pair of cables until it sounded the "best" with this pair of speakers. I don't find that particularly useful... if I owned Magico Minis, the speakers we listened too, and a pair of Pass Labs amps, the amps being used, I'd likely have been ready to consider buying them... but they do not offer custom tweaking of their cables for every buyer...

They likely did custom tweak their cables for Industrial Lights and Magic's Skywalker Sound... and perhaps someone at ILM bought them because they too liked the sound. I don't know the facts behind that transaction. I do know that ILM uses a lot of gear and have speakers and amps from virtually every manufacturer and likely a lot of cables too.

BTW: The wire factory I visited where they impressed me with their custom wires was MIT. I didn't buy into their "theories" about "poles of definition" before the visit or after. As I mentioned before, they are basically installing passive equalization filters on their cables... to their credit, they do a very careful job of it, and the way they choose to implement these filters is not easily done... they are not charging $100 per dollar of cost, but that said, often simpler is better. (Opinion to follow) In this case, I prefer simpler.

Another MIT note:

I had a pile of their wires in my home for a few months... none of it did any harm. None of it won me over. I was both surprised and disappointed to "hear" a marked and consistent improvement when using their digital cable. I was not disappointed because it proved me wrong. I am still waiting for the perfect cable... I was disappointed because the damned digital cable cost $2500! At the end of the day, the cheap old Audioquest cable I had been using sounded 99% as good and stayed in the system.

Widget

Mr. Widget

12-06-2011, 10:07 AM

Remember the highly material point that wires (and assorting "tweaks") are typically the highest-margin products in an audio dealer's inventory. IOW, wires are the audio analog to a car dealer's "undercoating" or a big box store's "extended warranty."
This is fact... and it certainly makes the entire cable industry look a bit suspect, but most of the high end cables do offer a well crafted product that seems to make a number of people happy to buy them. Should we buy high cost speaker wire and power cords? Obviously we aren't going to remotely answer this one to everybody's satisfaction. I guess we'll all have to find our own personal answer.

The high margins in cables certainly do help keep many dealers in business which isn't a terrible thing. ;)

Widget

tom1356

12-06-2011, 11:08 AM

While the price of some wire can be off the charts ridiculous it doesn't change the fact that different cables do sound different.

It makes no difference to me that those differences can't be measured or that others can't hear a difference.

I'm not recommending anyone buy anything or change anything. I don't sell wires.

Maybe I'm deaf, lying, crazy, or stupid but I love the way my system sounds and I hope you all love yours.

Just one mans experience.

Mr. Widget

12-06-2011, 11:40 AM

Maybe I'm deaf, lying, crazy, or stupid but I love the way my system sounds and I hope you all love yours.
Based on the direction I am currently leaning, crazy, stupid, and deaf aren't required... on the contrary, it appears that the psychological component is quite "normal"... but yes, it is easily proved with measurements, that some wires will change the sound.

As for our love of sound. Bingo! I too am quite happy. At the moment I am using black zip cord, though I have much more expensive options sitting on the shelf. I prefer this visual aesthetic in my current application and in my system with my ears, I have heard no ill effects. :)

Widget

Allanvh5150

12-06-2011, 11:42 AM

Mr. Widget

12-06-2011, 11:46 AM

the thing I dont get about these magical cables, everyone forgets about the thousands of feet of cable that was involved to get the music recorded in the first place.We don't all forget... I am well aware of it. :)

But realize too, that a recording studio is anything but a "straight wire with gain" and it isn't meant to be.

A parallel thought might be, "This recording was monitored on a pair of Altec 604s so I should listen to it on them." Well, maybe... but it'll sound better on a pair of Everest IIs. ;)

Widget

Allanvh5150

12-06-2011, 12:01 PM

Indeed. All comes down to personal choice. Zip cord certainly works pretty well for me and I guess uber expensive cables work wel for the people that buy them.

Allan.

Eaulive

12-06-2011, 12:04 PM

the thing I dont get about these magical cables, everyone forgets about the thousands of feet of cable that was involved to get the music recorded in the first place. The mic cables, wiring in the desk, and so on and so on. Is it not logical that if a cable changes the sound in any way, cheap or expensive, it is not perfect? For all most people know, the cheap $5 cable from radio shack may actually be a closer representation of what the engineer created in the studio in the first place. People are worried about spending thousands on cable and yet the same people will spend thousands of dollars on a single ended tube amp that runs around 5-10% distortion figures. I guess there are people out there that have there listening room in a controlled temperature environment. After all, the density of air will dramatically change the sound we hear.:blink:

I know people who will pay hundreds of dollars for a special magical 6' video cable or HDMI interconnect. Two months ago we rebuilt a whole video production facility with state of the art HDTV gear.
When I tell them that the place got completely rewired with kilometers of Belden 1855A at 50cents a foot retail price, they look at me with some kind of disbelief, trying to understand what just happened :rotfl:

tom1356

12-06-2011, 12:16 PM

Based on the direction I am currently leaning, crazy, stupid, and deaf aren't required...

Widget

So you think I care enough about this to lie?

Odd

12-06-2011, 12:18 PM

tom1040

12-06-2011, 12:37 PM

Looks like "tom1040" has found a subject that concerns many.

Have many of those who have experience with cables in your home HI FI seen all the wiring in a recording studio? There may be hundreds of meters of cable with not very good quality. All sound has passed through this before you get it home in the living room.

May be something to think about.

53924

As I see it, that is another issue. With my system, I can listen to great recordings all day. However, some recordings (from the studio) do not past muster with the JBL 1400 Arrays. For those, I may switch over to the S/2600 speakers(or just not play them at all).

I guess I would blame the person who recorded it to begin with.......but what do I know.

Thanks for the insights and links provided here. It is a learning curve for me and I appreciate the advice on this board.

richluvsound

12-06-2011, 12:52 PM

I think and hope Odd has supplied the final nail !

BMWCCA

12-06-2011, 01:09 PM

Have many of those who have experience with cables in your home HI FI seen all the wiring in a recording studio? There may be hundreds of meters of cable with not very good quality. All sound has passed through this before you get it home in the living room.

Check out this recording studio nearby:

http://www.c-ville.com/index.php?cat=121304062461064&ShowArticle_ID=11042105073317064

The Monkeyclaus recording engineer, Abel Okugawa, leans back in his chair, barefoot, staring at the controls in front of him. The drummer sweats. The singer bends at the waist, his head tremoring slightly. What else attracts bands to this place? “The sound,” Peter says.

Which gets us to the matter of wire. Peter takes me into a side room and rifles through bins, pulling out bits of wire from the 1930s and ’40s, wire wrapped in silk, in wax, wire hand-braided from copper. Each one has a different sound, a different way of shaping and transmitting noise, and he likes to splice and plug in those different wires to see what new effects they will give.

DS-21

12-06-2011, 03:30 PM

Should we buy high cost speaker wire and power cords? Obviously we aren't going to remotely answer this one to everybody's satisfaction.

You're asking the wrong question, though. The real reason is why should one consider "high cost speaker wire and power cords?"

There is a legitimate answer: because they're audio jewelry/tribal signifiers, and some people like the way they look.
That's the same reason one might wear a Patek Phillipe or Jaeger LeCoultre watch on the wrist, even though those fine machines are massively inferior at telling time to the iPhone in the person's hip pocket. Or why one might prefer to wear JM Weston 180 penny loafers instead of common weejuns. They are beautifully-crafted objects, and provide signals to others about one's status and preferences.

And there is a simply delusional answer: they "sound" better. That delusion is compounded because the people spouting it often have very poorly optimized systems, with speakers that don't have constant directivity in the midrange and no pressure sources in random locations around the room to smooth out response in the modal region. So in truth their systems lack the resolution needed to make fine-grained determinations of sonic differences, anyway.

While the price of some wire can be off the charts ridiculous it doesn't change the fact that different cables do sound different.

That is true only in very narrow and specific circumstances. One is simply that the cable is poorly specified for the application, i.e. running 50' of 28AWG wire to speakers with 2Ω impedance minima. The other is that the wire itself is intentionally designed to be a low-fidelity device, i.e. a nonadjustable signal-colorer rather than just a wire (output ≠ input). Such wires are, however, a minimal part of the audio wire industry's output.

It makes no difference to me that those differences can't be measured or that others can't hear a difference.

The obvious question is, can you hear a difference, when you don't know what wires are in use? Most people who spout delusions about wires are afraid to take that simple test.

Have many of those who have experience with cables in your home HI FI seen all the wiring in a recording studio? There may be hundreds of meters of cable with not very good quality.

I disagree. Studios I've seen use wire of very good quality. Good conductors of adequate size for the job, solid termination with strain relief, appropriate shielding for the application, etc.

Check out this recording studio nearby:

http://www.c-ville.com/index.php?cat=121304062461064&ShowArticle_ID=11042105073317064

I'm reminded of a story about the late Formula-1 world champion Graham Hill. At one race, he was convinced that the springs on his Lotus were insufficiently stiff. The pit crew replaced them with progressively stiffer springs, but Hill wasn't satisfied. So Lotus boss Colin Chapman took a middle-stiffness spring, ordered it to be painted a different color (blue to red, or maybe the opposite), and told Hill that they were a brand new spring from some supplier, and the stiffest thing currently available. Hill took a lap and pronounced them perfect.

The point is, even the best can be misled by their senses. That box of wires is probably more to add to the mystique of the place than for any actual sonic issue.

tom1356

12-06-2011, 03:51 PM

You're asking the wrong question, though. The real reason is why should one consider "high cost speaker wire and power cords?"

There is a legitimate answer: because they're audio jewelry/tribal signifiers, and some people like the way they look.
That's the same reason one might wear a Patek Phillipe Ellipse Jaeger LeCoultre watch on the wrist, even though those fine machines are massively inferior at telling time to the iPhone in the person's hip pocket. Or why one might prefer to wear JM Weston 180 penny loafers instead of common weejuns. They are beautifully-crafted objects, and signify to others that one is, if not in "the 1%," closer to the top 1% than to the bottom 70%

And there is a simply delusional answer: they "sound" better. That delusion is compounded because the people spouting it often have very poorly optimized systems, with speakers that don't have constant directivity in the midrange and no pressure sources in random locations around the room to smooth out response in the modal region. So in truth their systems lack the resolution needed to make fine-grained determinations of sonic differences, anyway.

That is true only in very narrow and specific circumstances. One is simply that the cable is poorly specified for the application, i.e. running 50' of 28AWG wire to speakers with 2Ω impedance minima. The other is that the wire itself is intentionally designed to be a low-fidelity device, i.e. a nonadjustable signal-colorer rather than just a wire (output ≠ input). Such wires are, however, a minimal part of the audio wire industry's output.

The obvious question is, can you hear a difference, when you don't know what wires are in use? Most people who spout delusions about wires are afraid to take that simple test.

I disagree. Studios I've seen use wire of very good quality. Good conductors of adequate size for the job, solid termination with strain relief, appropriate shielding for the application, etc.

I'm reminded of a story about the late Formula-1 world champion Graham Hill. At one race, he was convinced that the springs on his Lotus were insufficiently stiff. The pit crew replaced them with progressively stiffer springs, but Hill wasn't satisfied. So Lotus boss Colin Chapman took a middle-stiffness spring, ordered it to be painted a different color (blue to red, or maybe the opposite), and told Hill that they were a brand new spring from some supplier, and the stiffest thing currently available. Hill took a lap and pronounced them perfect.

The point is, even the best can be misled by their senses. That box of wires is probably more to add to the mystique of the place than for any actual sonic issue.

You are welcome to your beliefs but they are not facts.
Your anecdote is amusing but it's irrelevant.
I'm not alone in hearing the dramatic difference cables make in my system. I know my speakers are not perfect like all the other speakers but maybe that's why the wires make such a difference.

Eaulive

12-06-2011, 05:41 PM

8 pages... this subject never fails to ignite passions :D

Titanium Dome

12-06-2011, 06:23 PM

8 pages... this subject never fails to ignite passions :D

Well, it can be said that passion is essential for our hobby...

...except for those of us who insist we must be objective, rational, scientific...

...but then many of us seem to be rather passionate about being dispassionate...

...while others of us are intent on being logical about our passion...

...even though we must be mysterious (or supra-logical) in dressing up our passion as being beyond simple analysis...

...because there may be things we can't measure or that haven't been uncovered yet! :rotfl:

Mr. Widget

12-07-2011, 12:27 AM

So you think I care enough about this to lie?I looked for a ;) or a :).... not seeing either, I'll assume you are seriously asking.

Of course I don't think you are lying. On the contrary, I am saying (agreeing) that some wires do actually affect the sound and for the others, we may hear differences that occur due to our own processing of the neural information. It isn't foolishness, stupidity, or insanity. It appears that there are factors that affect our hearing that are seemingly quite real and not necessarily aural.

Widget

tom1356

12-07-2011, 09:42 AM

I looked for a ;) or a :).... not seeing either, I'll assume you are seriously asking.

Of course I don't think you are lying. On the contrary, I am saying (agreeing) that some wires do actually affect the sound and for the others, we may hear differences that occur due to our own processing of the neural information. It isn't foolishness, stupidity, or insanity. It appears that there are factors that affect our hearing that are seemingly quite real and not necessarily aural.

Widget

My mistake.

DS-21

12-07-2011, 04:58 PM

You are welcome to your beliefs but they are not facts.

Likewise.

Though you should recognize that I have no "beliefs" here as to wire sonics. Rather, I have "reasonable inferences based on the available valid data." There is a large difference between the two. I believe in leaving "beliefs" to things that actually matter but are not falsifiable, e.g. as "what is the meaning of life" or "is there a God?"

Audio wires are just not important enough to get all religious about. Admittedly, were I an audio dealer making 50-60 points on expensive wire, I might "get religion" fast. :)

Your anecdote is amusing but it's irrelevant.

So, the effect of suggestion on human perception is "irrelevant?" That's an interesting - and shocking - statement.

I'm not alone in hearing the dramatic difference cables make in my system.

I notice you make no mention of blind listening, where the subjects don't know the nature of the DUT. Given what we know of human psychology, anything less than that (with levels matched, where appropriate, though with wires that's generally a non-issue) is simply unreliable.

So, what you are actually saying is "inserting new wires while knowing that new wires are in the system have led myself and others to believe that we hear dramatic differences in my system."

Sorry, there's no "fact" there to dispute. Only opinion. Opinion whose roots are well-established by
(a) actual physical characteristics of wires at audio frequencies in the relative current/voltage levels;
(b) the power of suggestion; and
(c) peer pressure
as far more likely a factor of (b) with some (c) in it than of (a).

I know my speakers are not perfect like all the other speakers but maybe that's why the wires make such a difference.

Your notion that systems based on poorly-engineered loudspeakers with massive and glaring flaws are more sensitive to wires than properly-designed systems (constant midrange directivity, multiple pressure sources around the room in the modal region). I see no possible basis in reality for it, but it is nonetheless interesting.

Rolf

12-07-2011, 05:45 PM

hjames

12-07-2011, 06:31 PM

I can't believe all of the posts in this thread.

So ... what is the point of my post?.
Be open, try to listen to cables, and I am sure you will agree. If not, God help you.

THAT is not an open minded comment!!

(I did drop the part about upgrading crossovers as few will argue with that - but it wasn't the point of the thread) ...

If you can't hear a difference in wires God help you ...
... just amazing!

Actually, the proper response is ...
if you can't hear a difference in wires, don't buy them.

Rolf

12-07-2011, 07:01 PM

I believe it is the same we are saying. As I told all here, I don't buy anything before I have heard it. OK?

THAT is not an open minded comment!!

(I did drop the part about upgrading crossovers as few will argue with that - but it wasn't the point of the thread) ...

If you can't hear a difference in wires God help you ...
... just amazing!

Actually, the proper response is ...
if you can't hear a difference in wires, don't buy them.

rusty jefferson

12-07-2011, 10:31 PM

.

I recently watched a very intriguing podcast (http://www.hometheater.com/content/podcast-84-john-atkinson) by Stereophile's John Atkinson of Stereophile where he discussed human perception as it relates to audio. He discussed some audio studies that he has participated in as well others that he is familiar with and anecdotal experiences as well. This podcast isn't a typical Stereophile article where potential advertising dollars are at risk... if you are interested I encourage you to slog through the dull bits, there are some significant nuggets in there. His comments don't "answer" the mysteries of audio, but they certainly make you look at many of our everyday audio controversies differently.
Widget

It took my a while to read all the linked material and watch this podcast. I did enjoy the podcst. Very thought provoking. Most of the written material seemed dated, and subjective. Not the measurements of course. No disputing all the wires measuring in a similar fashion, but wouldn't a $1000 solid state production preamp measure similarly to a $6500 solid state hand built preamp? I'm confident TOM1040s system could resolve the difference audibly. The whole system, from listening space to all the components must be up to an appropriate level. If TOM1040 was using the production preamp with his 1400 Arrays and couldn't hear the difference between the supplied (inexpensive) interconnects that tend to come packaged with electronics, and a variety of $100 per pair interconnects, I'd be suspicious of the preamp not being up to the task. It may sound "fine", but not have the ability to bring the level of detail, air, extension, imaging, soundstage, etc. that makes a system like his special.

Here's a link to the Stereophile review of the 1400.http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/jbl_synthesis_1400_array_bg_loudspeaker/index.html I remember there was a thread started here when this first came out. Looking at the associated equipment page, the electronics seem appropriate. Mostly Bryston. Amps at $5-8000. Preamp at about $5000. Digital source/DAC about $5000. Sequerra tuner with mods, afraid to ask. Did the reviewer "over cable" this system? I don't know. If he had used 2 pairs of 16 gauge lamp cord to bi-wire with, would he have heard the difference? I think so. Especially after watching the podcast and hearing John's account of he and Michael Fremer getting involved in a listening test at a CES with members of the general public, and their ability to hear improvements/degradations to changes in a particular system the general public weren't perceiving nearly as consistantly. They (John/Michael) assumed the changes were component swap outs, but were wires being changed. Clearly, there must be something to learned experience. Watch the Video if you haven't already.

rusty jefferson

12-08-2011, 08:18 AM

... Watch the Video if you haven't already.

Then go to the index of shows and listen to episode #17, the previous interview with John Atkinson where they had a long discussion of audio cables, among other things. Perhaps someone could properly "link" to it.

Robh3606

12-08-2011, 08:22 AM

"They (John/Michael) assumed the changes were component swap outs, but were wires being changed. Clearly, there must be something to learned experience. Watch the Video if you haven't already."

Maybe there is but I still have a hard time with it. All of the interconnects are high level signals. The one glaring exception is the output from a phono cartridge paticuarly a MC. I have not seen any special treatment for wires used in turntables be it sheilding or what have you. If there is one place where RFI and noise can be a real issue it's here. With all the gain needed to make this a useable signal any noise here is game breaker.

Think about that for a minute. They are double shielding power cords becasue of the "harsh RFI enviornment" in our homes but the turntable has 4 unshielded wires leading from the headshell to the output cable with nothing special going on. And no noise issues here??

:D Maybe I just touched on a new money making modification for all those vintage turntables out there. I call dibs! I am going to patent it. Has anyone addressed this??

Rob:)

louped garouv

12-08-2011, 09:17 AM

. The one glaring exception is the output from a phono cartridge paticuarly a MC. I have not seen any special treatment for wires used in turntables be it sheilding or what have you. If there is one place where RFI and noise can be a real issue it's here. With all the gain needed to make this a useable signal any noise here is game breaker.

Think about that for a minute. They are double shielding power cords becasue of the "harsh RFI enviornment" in our homes but the turntable has 4 unshielded wires leading from the headshell to the output cable with nothing special going on. And no noise issues here??

:D Maybe I just touched on a new money making modification for all those vintage turntables out there. I call dibs! I am going to patent it. Has anyone addressed this??

Rob:)

going the wrong way Rob, everyone knows that the way to go is to the older cloth covered WE wire stock for headshell modification.... ;)

i found this online somewhere a while back, and had to save it for posterity...
:D

I am offering a modification to the Technics headshells.

This mod actually makes huge Difference in the playback of vinyl on your system when using your Turntables.

What I am offering is Pre 1940s wire that comes off the headshell, and attaches to the Cartridge Body, this DOES make a difference in sound quality, and not by a little bit either , you really hear the Difference on hifi sound systems.

Better level output / stronger output, seperation, image is alot stronger, all the haze around notes is gone more vivid and much more in focus, and very fast in transient response, brass & strings sound brilliant, jus incredible and alot tighter bottom end. really a major improvement on the whole specturm. It aswell pulls out micro and macro details that you never hear in music that you never new was there if your familiar with paticular recordings that you use to demo frequently.

grumpy

12-08-2011, 10:00 AM

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-42121-audioquest-wel-signature-tonearm-cable.aspx

So, yes ... that cow is being milked also.

I was purposefully excluding myself from this thread, but if a cable can make
someone happy (regardless of why) and they have the money to spend on it,
who am I to argue.

If I had the funds to buy Everests or TAD Reference Monitors, Playback Designs
source, Ypsilon amps, and such..., I would have a fun time running lamp
cord to the speakers, but I doubt I'd leave it that way... I'm sure I could find
something that worked as well but also looked and felt nice (and sturdy), with
a high level of workmanship (disassemble-able connectors to confirm)
and testing (e.g., hi-pot/resistance).

As it is, I have 4-conductor speaker cables I crimp-terminated myself, with gold pins...
they fit securely in the JBL push-terminals and in my various amp's binding post holes.

SEAWOLF97

12-08-2011, 10:04 AM

I must admit I have a hard time understanding the point of many of your posts... (herki)
Widget

+1

. Especially after watching the podcast and hearing John's account of he and Michael Fremer getting involved in a listening test at a CES with members of the general public, and their ability to hear improvements/degradations to changes in a particular system the general public weren't perceiving nearly as consistantly. They (John/Michael) assumed the changes were component swap outs, but were wires being changed. Clearly, there must be something to learned experience. Watch the Video if you haven't already.

As a Stereophile subscriber the last 4 years, I must note that JA is one of the few at that mag with much credibility. Mikey "I have a quarter million dollar turntable" Fremer is a professional shill and if he said "records are round" ...I'd have to verify that myself to be sure.

Some freely take "permanent gear loans" from their advertisers/test subjects ...I can count the number of less than stellar reviews on one hand. A year or two back, a new reviewer (who apparently didn't know the rules yet) gave Totem speakers a "less than glowing" writeup and the reader mail hailed it as a breakthrough article.

That the general public at a CES event agreed with JA/MF is not helpful much either, which of those "nobodies" is going to contradict self proclaimed published experts ?

good cable should be NEUTRAL and just pass the signal , if it adds/subtracts or accentuates anything ...its not good cable.

rusty jefferson

12-08-2011, 11:20 AM

...That the general public at a CES event agreed with JA/MF is not helpful much either, which of those "nobodies" is going to contradict self proclaimed published experts ?

Sorry, my explanation wasn't well written. In the test, JA and MF were consistently recognizing changes made in the system that the general public was not able to do as consistently. They didn't realize the changes were wires being exchanged till after the test. More in the second podcast about this.

richluvsound

12-08-2011, 01:15 PM

Baron030

12-08-2011, 02:55 PM

SEAWOLF97

12-08-2011, 03:30 PM

For all the discussion about expense speaker wire and low resistance connecters, I am surprised that no has brought up the real reason for using these products.
It’s all about the Damping Factor.
Here is a link that explains what a Damping Factor is and how to calculate it at the speakers.

http://www.bcae1.com/dampfact.htm

In my own stereo system, I use 2 – conductor 12 gauge, low voltage outdoor lighting wire.
It’s actually pretty cheap at about a dollar a foot. And if 12 gauge wires are just not heavy enough, you can always double up strands.
If you use two 12 gauge wires, it is equal to a single 9 gauge wire.

Baron030:)

that was an interesting link ..thanx

I'm using the same type/size wire -Carol low voltage underground lighting wire - and my amps specs show a DF of >500:1 w/ 375wpc-8 ohms and 450wpc to 4 ohms ..handles the 250ti's very well....cannot see how expensive speaker cable could sound much better ;)

same as this:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=100-849

if I wasn't already all wired up (the speakers) ..wud prolly go for this @ 30 cents/foot
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=109-065

(http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=109-065)12 AWG OFC Speaker Wire 250 ft.

This ivory-colored 12 AWG wire provides your speaker system with the best possible connections. The paired oxygen-free copper (OFC) rope-lay configuration maximizes conductivity and minimizes skin effect that causes high frequency roll-off.
Highlights

Super-high strand count
Provides maximum power transfer and highest possible damping factor
High-density rope lay copper stranding for superior flexibility and electrical efficiency
Rugged yet pliable ivory-colored PVC insulation resists wear
Very low capacitance and inductance

(http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=109-065)

herki the cat

12-08-2011, 07:49 PM

[QUOTE=Robh3606;324364]... Fancy wires??... I work in the aerospace industry and have been doing so for about 30 years now. During all that time not once has "better wire" been an issue. We have been building using the same wire types from before the Space Shuttle and the Space Station until now building the next generation communication satellites. That also goes for all the cabling that's used on the satellite and all the cabling used to test the assemblies prior to shipment. It's all standard mil-spec wire nothing special. All the power cords are generic unshielded varieties like you get with your equipment. It's just not an issue.Rob:)[/QUOTE

]Rob, you are absolutely correct. During my 40 years in RCA Camden engineering, we designed and manufactured many of the Electronic "Black box" Components and Systems used in your industry. This includes also Electronic Products for all US Military Communication Service Branches. All of this hardware used standard mil spec wire, RF Cables, & Video Cables.

Audio grade cables is a different world. No one here has ever brought up the original purpose of these cables, which simply requires that all electrical audio signals of every frequency in the audio Spectrum are propagated in original form to the listener with the phase and amplitude of the original direct audio signal including every component of the reverberation field generated in the acoustic environment of the performers.

To salvage what ever signal quality remains after processing by microphones, the recording & playback medium and all the interconnects plus the speaker cables__ the speaker system must then present excellent "group delay" aka excellent Phase linearity and very low Phase Distortion.Cable quality can be completely measured with an HP Spectrum Analyzer from 10 Hz throughout the audio spectrum of interest.

Cable design can even be empirical, addressing the wire construction with pipe profile etc and other series and shunt peripherals. Then, only electro-mechanical Integrity & quality control of the product is required.

BTW, In recording studios, Selection of monitor speakers is very difficult in the context of which speaker the home listener uses__ particularly in the production of the advertising commercials. A commercial producer will often request a tape or CD copy from the recording engineer to audition on his car radio. herki[Quote/]

Ian Mackenzie

12-08-2011, 09:56 PM

http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/spkrcabl.pdf

Allanvh5150

12-09-2011, 12:44 AM

Well I have just completed some rigorous test of some different cables. I compared some zip cord with some thicker zip cord. I listend pretty hard but for the life of me I could not hear the difference.:blink:

Robh3606

12-09-2011, 10:40 AM

Audio grade cables is a different world. No one here has ever brought up the original purpose of these cables, which simply requires that all electrical audio signals of every frequency in the audio Spectrum are propagated in original form to the listener with the phase and amplitude of the original direct audio signal including every component of the reverberation field generated in the acoustic environment of the performers.

Hello Herki

With audio we are talking about the lowest bandwidth 20Hz to 20Khz of any media we process. Analog Video by comparison was 6Meg for a broadcast channel. You have hundreds of time the amount of information that needs to be processed but no special wires here?? If we talk about whats going on in modern communications you have bandwidths in hundreds of MHz and again no special wires there either??

Audio's bandwidth it a joke compared to everything else.

Rob:)

SEAWOLF97

12-09-2011, 11:10 AM

http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/spkrcabl.pdf

thanx for the link Ian ....wish I had the tech BG to understand all of what Nelson says , but I got a lot..
only wish he had tested larger than 18 & 24 ga. zip, since many of us use 12.

BTW, In recording studios, Selection of monitor speakers is very difficult in the context of which speaker the home listener uses__ particularly in the production of the advertising commercials. A commercial producer will often request a tape or CD copy from the recording engineer to audition on his car radio. herki[Quote/]

not the commercials that I hear in the car ...most sound like crap with screaming car hucksters ...would like to flatten them out

a little OT: we watch Survivor on TV, tho I don't know why...but the person responsible for mixing that needs a little more training...frequently the audio track is so loud over the dialogue track that its mostly unintelligible.

Rolf

12-09-2011, 03:05 PM

I think I rest my case her. If one can't hear the difference between cables this is not for me to understand, as I can hear it. Do I have a "golden ear", or is some has a "broaken ear". don't know.

grumpy

12-09-2011, 03:30 PM

only wish he had tested larger than 18 & 24 ga. zip, since many of us use 12.

That would be the "Monster" cable ... equivalent to 11.5 ga as described on pg2.
The "Fulton" cable being an even large gauge... capable of being used as jumper cables.

The main points I took away were:
Not all of the paper is represented in the pdf... perhaps an editing problem at some point.
Certain "cable geometries" had the potential to work better with a very few types of speakers.
Attaching them willy-nilly could actually cause amp/wire/speaker system instabilities.
Using lamp cord (higher resistance) could actually reduce some issues in very specific circumstances.
Quality of the connections and robustness of the cable assemble are highly important.
Normal amp-to-speaker cable lengths relegate the need for 'special cables' to 'special speakers'
(by 'special' I do not explicitly mean expensive, I mean conductor pattern or spacing).

herki the cat

12-09-2011, 07:25 PM

...not the commercials that I hear in the car ...most sound like crap with screaming car hucksters ...would like to flatten them out.... Survivor on TV,... the person responsible for mixing that needs a little more training...frequently the audio track is so loud over the dialogue track that its mostly unintelligible.

All commercials producers want it loud! The old Magnetic Tape Medium went into tape saturation rapidly with severe distortion limiting loud commercials. Stretching the sound duration with re verb did increase loudness to a point. Now the digital recording medium has almost unlimited loudness.

Extreme loudness is also in demand by artists recording their dream creations. They want to be heard every where. I once asked the band leader at a Ski Club Dinner Affair to turn it down, and he complied. At low volume these poor young musicians were Auful:o:. I have been told some older musicians use ear plugs with 25 Db rating.herki[Quote/]

Allanvh5150

12-09-2011, 09:27 PM

DS-21

12-09-2011, 09:31 PM

I can't believe all of the posts in this thread. Is there really so few people in this thread that really doesen't undertand what we are talking about? I have read every post in this thread, with no comment, but as you can understand I can't remember all who write this. Ian has many good points regarding connections. WBT etc.

Aside from the price, what exactly is so special about WBT?

Is there any way that a pair of WBT spades and bananas fed into a pair of WBT binding posts is superior to a Speakon connection? As I mentioned above, the Speakon is massively superior in every material way to the archaic spade/banana/pin/tinned-wire/bare-wire+binding post interface.

Another difference worth noting is that the combination of a four-pole* Speakon terminal and male connector cost <10USD from any music shop or mail order catalog. About $7.50 from Parts Express.

By comparison, the cheapest way to get the same connectivity (albeit in an inferior and much more user error-prone format) using WBT parts from the Parts Express catalog will run two hundred sixty-four dollars. So, basically one pays an extra $250 and gets an considerably more primitive interface that is is not inherently insulated, has no inherent strain relief, does not positively lock in place or offer a quick-disconnect, and can only carry 1/2 a channel per connection (which can easily lead to mis-wired connections, for example if someone disconnects a speaker to vacuum around it), and probably has higher resistance, too.

It's also worth noting that the $264 worth of WBT baubles doesn't even offer the silver-plated contacts that a $7.50 (PE prices) equivalent Neutrik Speakon does!

*Four-pole because I am assuming active bi-amping. If one's crossovers are passive, one would only need 2 poles of connection, obviously. Hopefully people still aren't stuck on the idiocy of buy-wiring...

He uses, as I have understood very nice cables the whole way.

I can't help but note that when people say "nice cables" they usually mean expensive wires sold at exorbitant markup by an audio parts dealer.

I assume that, for example, mil-spec stranded silver-plated OFHC copper in Teflon insulation in appropriate thickness for the impedance minima of one's speakers and the length of the run, are not "nice wires" in your mind, because they are branded Alpha Industries or Belden or Whitmor instead of some silly audiophool brand name, they are generally purchased from an industrial warehouse shop instead of a fancy audio salon, and one is more likely to pay ~$0.50/ft for them than $50/ft.
(Note: not claiming that those wires sound any different from "regular" zip cord. They don't. They are superior to me from an ergonomic perspective, because they are thinner, easily tough enough to withstand inquiries by kitten claws, and are still very flexible. Those features make them worth a shade more than 2x as much to me as "regular" zip cord. Likewise, if someone likes to see garden hose-sized strings between her/his amp and loudspeaker, that's a perfectly reasonable aesthetic preference. But again, the only legitimate preferences as to wires are aesthetic. Sonics is simply not an issue.)

So ... what is the point of my post?. Be open, try to listen to cables,***

"Be open." That's the classic refrain of people who sell meaningless cons.

Notice how viscerally people with wire-religion recoil from any means of controlling bias, such as blind listening. A reasonable person can only conclude that the wire-religionists are simply to cowardly to allow, as it were, their faith tested. On the plus side, all that sand around one's head is a very good exfoliant...

Titanium Dome

12-09-2011, 09:47 PM

Here is what I would call "Monster Cable". 16 square mm which is about 5 AWG. However, this is still tiny. The biggest I have worked with was 630 square mm!

P.S. This fed one of the amplifiers in my car.

Reminds me of one of the old Saturday Night Live skits with Ed Asner, et al. "You can't put too much water in a nuclear reactor."

Translation for this endless thread: "You can't have too big or too expensive a speaker cable." :rotfl: :dita:

Titanium Dome

12-09-2011, 09:54 PM

Sorry, :dita: does not work on this forum. It works here: http://forums.audioreview.com/373397-post33.html

Mr. Widget

12-09-2011, 10:13 PM

The main points I took away were:
Not all of the paper is represented in the pdf... perhaps an editing problem at some point.
Certain "cable geometries" had the potential to work better with a very few types of speakers.
Attaching them willy-nilly could actually cause amp/wire/speaker system instabilities.
Using lamp cord (higher resistance) could actually reduce some issues in very specific circumstances.That article reminded me of the days when there were some braided cables with high capacitance that did cause some speakers to react badly with some amps. I had forgotten about that... basically my take away was that he quantified what I was saying... speaker wire may affect the sound of some systems, but since it is a random crap shoot, why would you want to screw around with it? Simply using twin lead 12 ga. is good and true.

Fairly recently while visiting Pass Labs, I was told 12 ga. twisted pair was the best all around speaker wire. I have a bulk roll of the stuff made by one of the high end cable companies... just haven't gotten around to giving it a go. I suppose if I wasn't happy with the sound of my system I'd be chasing that one.

It took my a while to read all the linked material and watch this podcast. I did enjoy the podcst. Very thought provoking. Most of the written material seemed dated, and subjective. Not the measurements of course. No disputing all the wires measuring in a similar fashion, but wouldn't a $1000 solid state production preamp measure similarly to a $6500 solid state hand built preamp?...I have a number of comments I'd like to add on the whole blind listening, professional reviewers, expectations, and all that, but at the moment I just don't have the time. I'll get back to this over the weekend.

Widget

Titanium Dome

12-09-2011, 11:29 PM

I have a number of comments I'd like to add on the whole blind listening, professional reviewers, expectations, and all that, but at the moment I just don't have the time. I'll get back to this over the weekend.

Widget

Yes, it's a prudent approach to take some time before posting. Of course, I'm not a very good example of that sometimes. :lol_fit:

Ian Mackenzie

12-10-2011, 01:58 AM

Aside from the price, what exactly is so special about WBT?

Is there any way that a pair of WBT spades and bananas fed into a pair of WBT binding posts is superior to a Speakon connection? As I mentioned above, the Speakon is massively superior in every material way to the archaic spade/banana/pin/tinned-wire/bare-wire+binding post interface.

Another difference worth noting is that the combination of a four-pole* Speakon terminal and male connector cost <10USD from any music shop or mail order catalog. About $7.50 from Parts Express.

By comparison, the cheapest way to get the same connectivity (albeit in an inferior and much more user error-prone format) using WBT parts from the Parts Express catalog will run two hundred sixty-four dollars. So, basically one pays an extra $250 and gets an considerably more primitive interface that is is not inherently insulated, has no inherent strain relief, does not positively lock in place or offer a quick-disconnect, and can only carry 1/2 a channel per connection (which can easily lead to mis-wired connections, for example if someone disconnects a speaker to vacuum around it), and probably has higher resistance, too.

It's also worth noting that the $264 worth of WBT baubles doesn't even offer the silver-plated contacts that a $7.50 (PE prices) equivalent Neutrik Speakon does!

*Four-pole because I am assuming active bi-amping. If one's crossovers are passive, one would only need 2 poles of connection, obviously. Hopefully people still aren't stuck on the idiocy of buy-wiring...

I can't help but note that when people say "nice cables" they usually mean expensive wires sold at exorbitant markup by an audio parts dealer.

I assume that, for example, mil-spec stranded silver-plated OFHC copper in Teflon insulation in appropriate thickness for the impedance minima of one's speakers and the length of the run, are not "nice wires" in your mind, because they are branded Alpha Industries or Belden or Whitmor instead of some silly audiophool brand name, they are generally purchased from an industrial warehouse shop instead of a fancy audio salon, and one is more likely to pay ~$0.50/ft for them than $50/ft.
(Note: not claiming that those wires sound any different from "regular" zip cord. They don't. They are superior to me from an ergonomic perspective, because they are thinner, easily tough enough to withstand inquiries by kitten claws, and are still very flexible. Those features make them worth a shade more than 2x as much to me as "regular" zip cord. Likewise, if someone likes to see garden hose-sized strings between her/his amp and loudspeaker, that's a perfectly reasonable aesthetic preference. But again, the only legitimate preferences as to wires are aesthetic. Sonics is simply not an issue.)

"Be open." That's the classic refrain of people who sell meaningless cons.

Notice how viscerally people with wire-religion recoil from any means of controlling bias, such as blind listening. A reasonable person can only conclude that the wire-religionists are simply to cowardly to allow, as it were, their faith tested. On the plus side, all that sand around one's head is a very good exfoliant...

DS-1 Please read what people say and turn your tongue 7 times say before going into a circular defensive war of words and kindly get your facts straight.

The only leg you are standing on at the moment is the Speakon thing which frankly I have used by the dozen including the 6 pole version and NO they are not suitable for everyone to use in domestic circumstances and they do break under the load of a 4345.

I doubt if most people would know where to buy them or how to assemble a Speakon which is a freakin PITA and its easy to get the polarity wrong because the labelling is quite difficult to read.

I guess we should also butcher these nice vintage JBL boxes and install Speakon sockets as well.

So please do us a favour and go do your home work after school is over and either respond in kind to what we senior posters are saying and be relevant and respect that or refrain from posting at all.

By the way why would I butcher and modify a $10,000 Passlabs power amp to use Speakons because someone on a forum claiming to be an authority figure out of no where said I should?

Of course you automatically void the warrantly and violate safety warnings being a smart arse attempting to modify a power amplifier because you accepted advice from a fuck nut on the internet.

The paradox is that the so called Pro amp with speakon connectors to stop roadies being electrocuted that is designed to survive being run over by a Mack truck and a dead short is most unlikely to provide the ultimate hi fidelity in terms of transparency compared to anything like the Passlabs amp to prove one way or another if cables or connectors influence audio quality.

Back to square one.

Your ascertains sound like an aluminum siding reps door knock and are downright miss information because you dont know shit from clay about the specifics of the audience you claim to be preaching to and the reality is they dont have to accept what you think even it you think you are right on a few particles in cyber space.

I guess you would be getting that by now or would you?

Back on Planet earth I like the WBT spades because they are in fact fully insulated along the sleeve to avoid accidents, cost less than $100 AUD, are strong and have double grub screws to secure into the cable for clamping and allow a variety of cable diameters and repeatable use without failure or fatigue.

There was time when I thought WBT spades were over the top but once you have used them there is no going back.

I dont know of anything similar only crappy tin plated 50 cent spades that are not insulated and are un reliable.

Nuff said.

richluvsound

12-10-2011, 07:38 AM

No affiliation ! http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/navships/&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2754

I use this guy a lot .... Just good, solid quality cable for DIY audio projects . If its good enough for a nuclear sub ........! Great shielding for RF with the Kapton .

I use the best quality connectors I can afford .... Speakons for high end audio .... Nada . PA, by all means thats what there designed for .

Nice to see you kicking around Macka. Your dry wit and proven experience is sure missed around here mate .

Rich

Rich

Ian Mackenzie

12-10-2011, 08:00 AM

Good Morning Vietnam - from Hoian

DS-21

12-10-2011, 10:19 AM

The only leg you are standing on at the moment is the Speakon thing which frankly I have used by the dozen including the 6 pole version and NO they are not suitable for everyone to use in domestic circumstances and they do break under the load of a 4345.

Now you are simply a liar.

Please show me the "6-pole Speakon:"
http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/spx-series/
http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/speakon-cable-connectors/stx-series/
http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/speakon-cable-connectors/fc-series/

And I'm going to call BS on them "break under the load***," too. These things are routinely used to connect multiple kiloWatt amp to loudspeakers in systems where reliability is a fiscal necessity. Unless by "break[s] under the load" you simply mean that the connector will break if one attempts to pick up a heavy subwoofer by the cable and swing it around, or one attempts to suspend it by the cable. Then you may have a "point," but your point only speaks to extreme user incompetence.

I mean, I suppose it's [I]possible, for them to break without being blatantly misused, but if that's true it only speaks to extreme incompetence in assembly.

I doubt if most people would know where to buy them or how to assemble a Speakon which is a freakin PITA and its easy to get the polarity wrong because the labelling is quite difficult to read.

As to your first part, you assume without merit that "most people" have trouble with reading, because it was mentioned in this thread, both generic sources ("music shop") and a mail-order vender that ships all over the world ("Parts Express.") Any search engine will also reveal many local and mail-order sources for anyone.

As to your second point, you mean "most people" cannot line up 3-4 parts and handle a simple screwdriver? Here is Crown's tutorial: http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/126986.pdf.
Note that many of the newer ones have only three parts, the "barrel" and "insert" being one piece.

I suppose I have rather a less dim view of humanity than you do.

If one cannot line up 3-4 parts and tighten 2/4/8 screws in a competent manner, then one should not be doing anything related to the setup or installation of an audio system, or anything else requiring more thought than the installation a simple domestic lightbulb. And if the lightbulb is covered by a fixture requiring the untightening of thumb screws for access, such people should probably hire an electrician for the job...

I will give you that the labeling thing, on the original Speakons. The newer 3-piece SPX ones are better in that regard, with labeling on the outside of the barrel.

I guess we should also butcher these nice vintage JBL boxes and install Speakon sockets as well.

If wants the best currently-available connection, yes. Sonically, it makes no difference, of course. (Unless someone wires up the primitive half-pole blinding posts backwards.)
An alternate possibility is to keep the original terminal and simply build a new one to fit with a Speakon terminal installed. Would I personally go through the effort? Probably not. They all sound the same, so whatever's on the box is probably fine even if it's technically suboptimal.

Obviously, for people building DIY cabinets for JBL (or Tannoy, or B&C, BMS, etc.) parts, that is not an issue.

People who care above all about sound quality generally will either build new cabinets or commission bespoke cabinets anyway. Why? The old cabinets may be well-built and elegant-looking. However, they were also designed before the benefits of diffraction mitigation were well-understood. So to get the large roundovers required to minimize diffraction, one needs a new cabinet anyway.

So please do us a favour and go do your home work after school is over and either respond in kind to what we senior posters are saying and be relevant and respect that or refrain from posting at all.

Another common tactic for wire-religionists in such discussions is to, realizing they have no actual leg to stand on, attempt to discredit the reasonable side with off-topic ad hominem attacks. (And for the record, I've been out of school for a while, including my terminal degree. That is, my degree with a "D" in its name.)

By the way why would I butcher and modify a $10,000 Passlabs power amp

Well, I think the better question is why would one buy a "$10,000 Passlabs power amp," but if you would "butcher and modify" it to use WBT binding posts instead of whatever Nelson had installed stock then we're only talking matters of degree.

Besides, in the world as it stands at the end of 2011, if both are properly set up, a $10k Pass amp will be markedly lower in fidelity than a $2k A/V receiver. Why? The latter will have sophisticated and useful room correction processing, such as Audyssey MultEQ XT32.

Considering this is the JBL forum we're talking about fairly efficient speakers. A 96dB/W/m speaker (like my 12" Tannoys) doesn't need a kilowatt in a domestic living room. 100W is more than enough.

Of course you automatically void the warrantly and violate safety warnings being a smart arse attempting to modify a power amplifier because you accepted advice from a fuck nut on the internet.

When a person's religion gets questioned, s/he may have trouble controlling her/his language in a civilized manner....

The paradox is that the so called Pro amp with speakon connectors to stop roadies being electrocuted that is designed to survive being run over by a Mack truck and a dead short is most unlikely to provide the ultimate hi fidelity in terms of transparency compared to anything like the Passlabs amp to prove one way or another if cables or connectors influence audio quality.

You may well actually believe that.

Pro amps do, admittedly, have one big usability flaw in home use: fan noise.

Back on Planet earth I like the WBT spades because they are in fact fully insulated along the sleeve to avoid accidents,

But if you touch the forks together with the amp on, which is entirely plausible, you still short out the amp. That is why they all spades (or bananas, etc.) are inferior to modern speaker connectors, which are totally insulated.

Rolf

12-10-2011, 03:13 PM

I can't help but note that when people say "nice cables" they usually mean expensive wires sold at exorbitant markup by an audio parts dealer.

I assume that, for example, mil-spec stranded silver-plated OFHC copper in Teflon insulation in appropriate thickness for the impedance minima of one's speakers and the length of the run, are not "nice wires" in your mind, because they are branded Alpha Industries or Belden or Whitmor instead of some silly audiophool brand name, they are generally purchased from an industrial warehouse shop instead of a fancy audio salon, and one is more likely to pay ~$0.50/ft for them than $50/ft.
(Note: not claiming that those wires sound any different from "regular" zip cord. They don't. They are superior to me from an ergonomic perspective, because they are thinner, easily tough enough to withstand inquiries by kitten claws, and are still very flexible. Those features make them worth a shade more than 2x as much to me as "regular" zip cord. Likewise, if someone likes to see garden hose-sized strings between her/his amp and loudspeaker, that's a perfectly reasonable aesthetic preference. But again, the only legitimate preferences as to wires are aesthetic. Sonics is simply not an issue.)

How is that people accept that an expencive Rols Royce gives you more than a cheap other brand, but compleatly have a different opinion about cables? You get what you pay for, like a bad (cheap) refrigurator compared to e more expencive one.

"Be open." That's the classic refrain of people who sell meaningless cons.

Notice how viscerally people with wire-religion recoil from any means of controlling bias, such as blind listening. A reasonable person can only conclude that the wire-religionists are simply to cowardly to allow, as it were, their faith tested. On the plus side, all that sand around one's head is a very good exfoliant...

No, that is not what I am trying to say. You mean I have may head in the sand, thats ok. But have you ever tried cables. let's say in the 2 - 4 thousend US$ price range? even cables up to about $12 - 15 thousend? I have, and my conclution is that cables about 2 - 3 grand comparing to the 12 -15 thousend has little (if anything) impact on the sound in my system. But I don't have the most "golden" ears in the world, so it might be possible that some can spot the difference. Don't know. What I know is that my Monster Sigma (about 2.500 US$) from the CD player to the pre-amp did a great improvement. So maybe it is your time tu put your head out of the sand, try it, and listen. I guess you will be surprised.

richluvsound

12-10-2011, 03:21 PM

OH DEAR..... So now we ban , politics , racism , religion and CABLE debates .... Moderator , do your thing please !

BTW , who is this Athens fella , should I have read his books on the subject ?

tom1040

12-10-2011, 03:40 PM

I did not intend for this issue to get out of hand.....shut it down. I have gleaned enough information.

Again, thanks to all.:eek:

Ian Mackenzie

12-10-2011, 06:51 PM

I never said that and you might want to go to the Passlabs web site and inspect the rear loudspeaker connections they use.....

No modification necessary for the WBT spades. 8 mm size actually

One the 8 pole thing, well the speakon I used had provison for 6 conductors so it would handle the mid, high and UHF spectrum of the 4344 external crossovers I made for Porchedman some years ago.

If you search under 4343 modifications there are images.

We're watching you.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?6633-Discussion-Thread-JBL-4343-to-4344-upgrade&p=69854&viewfull=1#post69854 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?6633-Discussion-Thread-JBL-4343-to-4344-upgrade&p=69854&viewfull=1#post69854)
If you do plan on an external network you will need to arrange a suitable means of cabling to the outside world. I used an 8 Pole Speakon Plug and Socket. There a several advantages with this style of connector, its air-tight, has very good electrical characertistics, takes a 13 gauge cable and the polarity of the individual driver cabling is identified and maintained without fear of error.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?6633-Discussion-Thread-JBL-4343-to-4344-upgrade&p=75219&viewfull=1#post75219 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?6633-Discussion-Thread-JBL-4343-to-4344-upgrade&p=75219&viewfull=1#post75219)
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?6633-Discussion-Thread-JBL-4343-to-4344-upgrade/page12

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?6633-Discussion-Thread-JBL-4343-to-4344-upgrade&p=76308&viewfull=1#post76308 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?6633-Discussion-Thread-JBL-4343-to-4344-upgrade&p=76308&viewfull=1#post76308)

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?6633-Discussion-Thread-JBL-4343-to-4344-upgrade&p=102142&viewfull=1#post102142

WDJ

12-10-2011, 10:30 PM

We push electrons down many kinds of different conductors for a variety of reasons, wire is simply NOT just wire. Take a look at a Belden / Tensolite / ThermaxCDT / Vermillion or myriad other manufacturers catalog sometime. For example:

(1) MilStd-1553 (1 Mbit rates) databus uses 78ohm twisted pair (1553 is used to control avionic systems and used to be used to control London's "tube")
(2) ARINC 429 (14 and 100k rates) uses 100ohm twisted pair (ARINC 429 "flew" that last airliner you were on)
(3) Ethernet (10/100/1000 and 10G rates) use 100 ohm twisted pair (and each pair of CAT5 and 6 is twisted at a different rate and then all four pairs are spiraled for some very good reasons) (and remember 10Base2 used coax)
(4) X-band (10GHz RF) radar uses waveguide (rectangular tubes) used for military search/surveillance radar by those fine folks that come and drag unfortunate (OK, sometimes stupid) boaters back home
(5) We just spent a week tracking a EMI problem down in a system that was caused by noise from an unsheilded gigabit Ethernet system (really four parallel paths each running at 250MB) that was killing another system which just happens to run right at, (you guessed it) 250MHz....
(6) SMPTE170 (NTSC) and 292 (HD-SDI) video both use 75ohm coax for distribution (and the rates are about 100MHz and 1.5Gigabit)

But, at the freqs we listen to, the effects of differing wires are pretty much restricted to wire size and impedance matching. Boils down to putting a big enough conductor in the path and you'll be OK......but then, I've spent 40 years on a variety of airplanes so maybe my ears aren't the best anymore!