music server questions

[brett_s]

I have a lot of CD's. I keep reading about how lots of people are ripping the CD to hard drives and making music servers for digital media (internet, cd's, etc). i'm not talking compressed files, but full quality audio.


I'd really like to start investigating putting together a quality system to do this, but I don't even know where to start. Have any of you made the plunge into this? If so, what have you done?

Brett

[Allanvh5150]

Hi, Good idea. I have done it with my entire music/video collection. I looked at a lot of different ways and decided on the easiest. I use an Apple TV 2 as the device to connect to my home theatre system. Super easy to set up and use. It is very small, 90mm x 90mm and has all the outputs you need. HDMI, Optical, USB and wired network connection. It is also wireless and I think the cost is $99 US. The server that I use is a Mac Mini running iTunes. Music CD's can be ripped in less than five minutes. The Mac Mini server is also wireless so set up is dead simple. Of course if you have another server, it will work. Apple TV come with its own remote and the on screen menu's are very easy to navigate.
There are other media systems on the market but none as easy as the system I described.

Allan.

[hjames]

I have a lot of CD's. I keep reading about how lots of people are ripping the CD to hard drives and making music servers for digital media (internet, cd's, etc). i'm not talking compressed files, but full quality audio.


I'd really like to start investigating putting together a quality system to do this, but I don't even know where to start. Have any of you made the plunge into this? If so, what have you done?

Brett
It basically depends on your budget for such things. You can do it for a few hundreds, or for multi-thousands and up ...


Using iTunes with Apple Loss Compression is one way to approach this. I have a number of files on external hard drive storage attached
to my Mac Pro computer up in the office. (I used to do it with an external drive system on a mac mini ... a much cheaper base!)

I have Apple Airport Express on one music-only system downstairs (Carver receiver with the custom L200 3ways or the Dahlquists DQ10s) ,
and I have an older Apple TV (1st gen) as a source on my main surround (music + theatre) system with HDTV & biAmped 4341 monitors.
With the Mac system as a hub, I can select the computer speakers or either of the downstairs systems to use as "remote speakers" and
play things upstairs onto either or both of the remote systems, streaming my music via wifi around the home.

With the Home theater system that had a monitor it wasn't too bad running things, but on the other system that is music only (no monitor)
it was lacking local control ... until now.

I finally got an iPhone last month and there is a free remote control app for it that lets me connect to iTunes from the phone and control the system completely from anywhere in the house - I can choose by artist, by playlist or even by tune and run the whole source audio like a remote jukebox!
I've currently got well over 2000 albums and CDs loaded into the system ... and it all plays quite nicely!

Apparently, Apple Lossless is comparable to FLAC.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Apple_Lossless

Don't know how all this would work on the Windows version of iTunes, I've heard folks complain about the win based iTunes,
but on the mac version its all quite nice!

[Allanvh5150]

It also works very well on a PC running iTunes. The Apple TV is the key to simplicity. IMO, ripping CD's into iTunes sounds as good as playing the CD. It never used to be that good but now it seems it is.

Allan.

[jerry_rig]

I too highly recommend the Mac Mini. I connect mine to a 1 Terabit Firewire external drive and rip my CDs as uncompressed AIIF files (WAV works as well). Using iTunes, you stream wirelessly as some here do to Apple TV. Or -- for better quality -- you can send music over the Mac's USB port to an outboard DAC. With the latter, and depending on the DAC interface, you can listen to files recorded up to 24bit/192kHz -- much higher than Redbook CD quality.

I am enjoying a number of albums downloaded from the web (HDTracks & others) as well as those I've ripped from DVD-A disks at 24bit/96kHz. The Computer Audiophile website has a lot of info to help you along. Good luck!

[brutal]

Go FLAC or go home. :D

I ripped everything to FLAC.

For the non-MAc crowd, Media Monkey is hard to beat. I run it on a Windows 2003 Server (yea, old school) and it works great to stream to all the network and DLNA devices. best thing about it is using it to fix all the tags, art, and keep the music organized the way *I* want it.

Additionally, Logitech Media Server (Squeezebox Server) serves the audio files managed by Media Monkey to my Touch.

[Mr. Widget]

Apple TV is cheap and works well if you have a display, iPad, or iTouch/iPhone... but, and for me it is a big one, it only outputs optical. In my system I can definitely hear and improved sound from AES/EBU or S/PDIF.

I have friends that use a Mac Mini... great as there is no fan noise, but it can only output via USB... most DACs don't handle USB as well as they should. There is a fairly expensive solution from Berkeley Audio that will convert USB to AES/EBU or S/PDIF and do so very well, but...

There are number of stand alone all in one server systems that range from OK to pretty darned good, but none are inexpensive. This is a rapidly evolving area. I personally went small and fairly inexpensively. I use iTunes managing Apple Lossless files that I've ripped from Redbook... (so far hi-rez is not available through iTunes) I play the files from my iPod through a Wadia Dock feeding my Bryston BDA-1 DAC... sound is top drawer, convenience is a little lacking.


Widget

[Allanvh5150]

Th Apple TV has optical and HDMI so you can go either way. The new MacMini's also have HDMI. You can just use the MacMini without Apple TV ans control the whole thing that way. Personally, I run the remote app on my iPhone and iPad and control the whole lot from either device. You can also install "ServeToMe" on the iPhone or iPad and stream the MacMini Server to either device anywhere in the house or, via 3G, anywhere in the world. The Apple on screen interface is a doddle.

Most people will admit that digital files are not as good as the real thing but lets face it, they are light years ahead of where they were a few years back and for playing music or videos on a home system, it is about as good as it gets. We should also remember that most people listen to music with some sort of pocket device with earphones. Go figure.

Allan.

[berf]

From the non-Apple and non-plug-and-run side of the question, I'll offer this. Windows Home Server 2011 at the moment is five steps forward and one step back from the old version but it's a very well-spent $50. You'l need to dedicate a low-power 64-bit machine with a 160gb or larger boot drive and 2tb storage drive, probably a $400 investment at the moment, $300 when drive prices come back to normal. Another $50 (after the free trial) buys J River Media Center to run on the server to store, catalog, and stream your music and video. I'm about positive J River allows your initial license to also run on your PC to access and play your music. I will admit that I'm still learning the how-to's of J River as it's a very deep well of possibilities. To me the most impressive thing is the 10-ft interface of Theater View. I am also only on the verge of installing the server version as it's very existence is only barely documented and I only want to install stuff on the server once I'm sure I want to make the commitment.
I've been chasing the Media PC for almost ten years and the best I've tried has been pretty good at best. All I want is a single media server to handle multiple cablecard TV tuners to send live and recorded TV as well as stored music and video to any PC in the home. Windows Media Center 7 is pretty darn good and it works well with various add-ons but it can be really clunky and it's barely customizable. Beyond TV was great but it's now a dead product. I'll check out Media Monkey, as for some reason I've never heard of it, but it doesn't seem to be geared to video.

[allen mueller]

I've been using iTunes and the free remote app on either my iPhone or iPad. I went this way cause it was easy and I already had everything.

[Mr. Widget]

From the non-Apple and non-plug-and-run side of the question...I think your approach is probably a very good one, but it is fraught with hiccups, no big deal if messing about isn't a bother for you, but I'd rather hit the power switch and have the music happen. :)


Most people will admit that digital files are not as good as the real thing but lets face it...Do you mean digital audio vs. analog, or do you mean server based vs. playing CDs?

On the HDMI front, are there any top drawer DACs that accept HDMI? By top drawer DACs I mean Berkeley Audio Alpha, the gear from Meitner, Weiss, dCS etc... of course these are all mega buck, but the next tier down including the Bryston that I have and a few others also do not accept HDMI... about the only products that I can think of that will accept HDMI are the AV receivers and processors. I suppose if that is what you are going to use then HDMI is fine, but if you want to hear the best that digital audio can offer... dedicated two channel is still leaps and bounds above these devices.


Widget

[Jonis]

I've been using Sonos ZP90's (3 of them) to create whole house audio. Very nice for wireless distribution of audio to my different JBL systems. Ripped the CD collection to a Western Digital MyBookLive. Able also to group zones and play perfectly synchronized music all over the house.

Don't have to have a computer running to use the system. Able to control everything from iphone and ipad.

The Sonos system makes it really easy to stream from internet music services. I'm using Pandora and Spotify at the moment and really like both (I get tired of my music library and it's good for finding new stuff).

[Mr. Widget]

For those with an irrational dislike of Apple, Sonos offers a similarly well thought out, easy to use, excellent build quality product that is certainly worth considering. We install tons of them and people love their ease of use and flexibility... I've even brought one home to play with. The wireless iPod dock will stream the digital signal from your iPod... sonically Sonos is pretty good, not top drawer but very listenable and you can even control it with Android devices keeping your home free of Apple. ;)


Widget

[brett_s]

I have some serious research to do......

Keep the info coming, it is quiet helpful.

I will be quite honest and show my ignorance here....I'm not adverse to apple products, I have just never used any. I know that has to be impossible these days, but it's the truth. I've never heard of a apple tv, mac mini. I will for sure look into it. I have to figure out exactly what it is and how to use it. Realistically, I'm probably the last 35 year in the US that doesn't have an apple product.

As for the other items, I will start my research right now!

Thanks,
Brett

[hjames]

I have some serious research to do......

Keep the info coming, it is quiet helpful.

I will be quite honest and show my ignorance here....I'm not adverse to apple products, I have just never used any. I know that has to be impossible these days, but it's the truth. I've never heard of a apple tv, mac mini. I will for sure look into it. I have to figure out exactly what it is and how to use it. Realistically, I'm probably the last 35 year in the US that doesn't have an apple product.

As for the other items, I will start my research right now!

Thanks,
Brett

One thing to do first is to figure out exactly what you want to do and what gear you want to have at the playback area. Regular computers can be kind of noisy in your listening area with fans and such - Media center PCs (and mac Mini computers) don't have fans and are less disturbing of your music listening.

Another solution to the noise factor is to put the media server in a closet or in another room and just send the music via network (wifi or wired) to your listening space.

Again, many ways to approach it, the question you need to figure is how perfect does the music need to be, and what kind of a budget are you planning.
For some the operative thing is the convenience of having everything available at a touch - and may not be the audio-fanatic others are.

Generally, turnkey solutions cost more ... but are more spouse friendly ...

[Jonis]

sonically Sonos is pretty good, not top drawer but very listenable

For those not satisfied with Sonos' internal DAC, it will output S/PDIF and optical to an outboard DAC. I've not found it necessary though.

[jerry_rig]

On the HDMI front, are there any top drawer DACs that accept HDMI? By top drawer DACs I mean Berkeley Audio Alpha, the gear from Meitner, Weiss, dCS etc...
Widget

I use the Berkeley Audio Alpha DAC and (as I'm sure you know) it does not accept HDMI. But it does recognize and beautifully handles HDCD, something few other DACs do. Also, I use an Audiophilleo 1 to convert my Mini Mac's USB to S/PDIF essentially jitter free. As far as I'm concerned, it sounds amazing. Highly recommended!

[Allanvh5150]

Most people that install a media server, want a plug and play solution I think. MacMini direct to a home theatre amp via HDMI is about as easy as it gets. I also have a windows home server but you need additional equipment to get the end result, I for one hate having to add several pieces of gear to achieve what should be rather easy to do.

Allan.

[Guido]

I refuse to connect a PC to my system and use an Olive 4HD.
(I know it has also a processor in it but.....ya know)

http://www.olivehd.com

Nice, really nice!
It has an extremely good DAC build in but there is room for improvement.


As for DAC I use an Aqvox USB 2 D/A MKII

http://www.aqvox.de/products.html

Totally underated piece of gear....

[Allanvh5150]

Seems like an interesting solution, although rather pricey. How do you navigate through the menus?

I think Mr Job's remote is a tad better looking.

[Guido]

How do you navigate through the menus?

You use either the touchpanel at the unit or
- iphone
- ipod
- ipad
- android mobiles/tablets
above via Wifi
- the Olive IR remote



I think Mr Job's remote is a tad better looking.

I know this remote. Looks good but I don't really use it.

[Mr. Widget]

I use the Berkeley Audio Alpha DAC and (as I'm sure you know) it does not accept HDMI. But it does recognize and beautifully handles HDCD, something few other DACs do. Also, I use an Audiophilleo 1 to convert my Mini Mac's USB to S/PDIF essentially jitter free. As far as I'm concerned, it sounds amazing. Highly recommended!Are you aware that Berkeley Audio now has their own USB S/PDIF converter? Hey, it's only money. :D

HDCD... and you know why they support it don't you? ;) For those who don't, the folks at Berkeley Audio are from Pacific Microsonics... at least the ones who were not acquired by Microsoft. Discussing HDCD and HDMI in the same conversation is bound to confuse some folks, but....


I refuse to connect a PC to my system and use an Olive 4HD.
(I know it has also a processor in it but.....ya know)We have an Olive in our demo room... I like it's simplicity and would recommend it in some circumstances but not universally... and I don't think they will be with us in the future. If I was going to use it in my room, I would definitely use an outboard DAC... the built in DAC is OK, but I don't particularly want to live with OK. ;)


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

In reading over this thread, I think I'd recommend the $349 Sonos ZP90 and a 2T NAS Drive <$200... if you already own an iPhone/iPad or a similar Android device with these two pieces and a home WiFi network or a wired network you have an instant server that works well with built in internet radio Pandora etc. and an excellent navigation system... using the built in DAC is OK, outputting to a better DAC will be useful, but can be done later... You can't use Hi Rez files greater than red Book CD, but for around $500 you are 90% there.


Widget

[hjames]

Knowledge nuggets like this are why I love you folks!
I've been a big fan of HDCDs ... and now I know where to look for further tech from them, thanks W!



HDCD... and you know why they support it don't you? ;) For those who don't, the folks at Berkeley Audio are from Pacific Microsonics... at least the ones who were not acquired by Microsoft. Discussing HDCD and HDMI in the same conversation is bound to confuse some folks, but...

Widget

[JeffW]

We have an Olive in our demo room... I like it's simplicity and would recommend it in some circumstances but not universally... and I don't think they will be with us in the future. If I was going to use it in my room, I would definitely use an outboard DAC... the built in DAC is OK, but I don't particularly want to live with OK. ;)


Widget

Dang, I sort of liked the stand alone aspect of the Olive 4HD, and I have an outboard DAC. But it's going to cost quite a bit more than a Squeezebox or Sonos, and I don't have a lot of CDs already ripped to a PC. That and the Olive only does a few formats compared to say a Squeezebox.

[Allanvh5150]

We have an Olive in our demo room... I like it's simplicity and would recommend it in some circumstances but not universally... and I don't think they will be with us in the future. If I was going to use it in my room, I would definitely use an outboard DAC... the built in DAC is OK, but I don't particularly want to live with OK. ;)


Widget

For that reason alone I would go with an actual server, P.C or MAC, they both work. At the end of the day if you decide in the future that you do not want a music server, at least you can use it for some other purpose.

Allan.

[brett_s]

The Sonos with a NAS drive seems very interesting. I'm not ready to commit to anything, just sort of a fact finding mission. But this looks very clean.

If I happened to have some Apple products in my house already, I think I would be investigating that route. That apple TV looks darn cool. If it worked with a external hard drive, I think that would be very nice. But if I'm starting from scratch, I don't know.

A stand alone server isn't out of the realm either. I acuatlly built an area for this when I built my theater area. Little did I know that what used to take a dedicated server now can be done with something that fits in your hand.....don't even get me started on all the ethernet cable I pulled when doing the room, just in case.......wireless kinda made that obsolete.

Here's an off the wall question for you guys. I happen to have a PS3 hooked up in the system, have any of you heard of using a ps3 as the front end ineterface? Hook it up with an external hard drive (or the current internal) and feed it optically to a DAC. Can't support FLAC, but it does do WAV format. I'd like to hear your thoughts on a PS3 as a media server. Bad idea? Good idea?

Brett

[brett_s]

yikes....it looks like my last comments killed my own thread!:D

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Brett

[hjames]

yikes....it looks like my last comments killed my own thread!:D

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Brett

Haven't done much with a PS3 -
never owned one so I can't add much to that direction --

The Apple TV is a playback unit - think of it as a receiver.
if you go that route you'd need a base unit (computer, like the mac mini)
to attach your hard drive storage to ...
or, you could just use the base unit as the server in your music room.



One thought is - what gear do you plan to have in your "media room"?

Are you planning to have a TV or computer Monitor in your playback area?

Is your planned system for music only (stereo?) or a multimedia system
with movies and games and surround sound and such.

What gear do you have now, and what kind of budget do you have?

Do you plan to just play music in that one room, or did you want to be able
to stream music to other rooms in your home? If so, how many rooms?

[brett_s]

Hjames,

What i have is a combination home theater/stereo area. Home theater for the family, 2 channel stereo for me. I've been slowly trying to improve both the home theater and 2 channel aspect as the budget permits (deals on good used equipment). Ease of use for the family is of key concern for the family.

Here is what i have for my system right now (please be gentle with your comments!):
-Cambridge Audio 640r AV reciever, driving center (PC600) and rear surround.
-Parasound HCA1500 amp,driving front speakers (XPL200a).
-Denon SACD/DVD player as cd unit
-PS3 for gaming/movie streaming (the original intent was for audio serving also, but I don't hear of that many people using it for it).
-Infinity TSS-Sub4000
-Epson HD projector

I plan in the near future to get a dedicated quality used preamp for 2 channel listening. Right now the CA unit is being used as my pre to the amp. The CA does the decoding for surround and HDMI swtiching. All audio is hooked up through the AV reciever with Toslink connection.

When I am listening to music, I always have the projector on with some sports/etc on in the background. So I could definetly use this as a monitor.

No interest in serving music to multi zones.

House is on a wireless router for two laptops, ps3, wii, and whatever other new thing comes out next.

Budget: TBD. This is a fact finding mission. I'm just trying to learn what my options are and cost.

I think that answers all of your questions, but I if missed one, please let me know.

[hjames]

Sounds like a lot of us that have to have spouse-friendly systems for the family,
and try to ease a bit of audio joy for us into the source switch!

>> All audio is hooked up through the AV receiver with Toslink connection
That may be the limiting factor for your end results ...


Good luck, and let us know how it goes!


Hjames,

What i have is a combination home theater/stereo area. Home theater for the family, 2 channel stereo for me. I've been slowly trying to improve both the home theater and 2 channel aspect as the budget permits (deals on good used equipment). Ease of use for the family is of key concern for the family.

I plan in the near future to get a dedicated quality used preamp for 2 channel listening.
Right now the CA unit is being used as my pre to the amp. The CA does the decoding for surround and HDMI switching.
All audio is hooked up through the AV reciever with Toslink connection.

When I am listening to music, I always have the projector on with some sports/etc on in the background. So I could definetly use this as a monitor.

No interest in serving music to multi-zones.

House is on a wireless router for two laptops, ps3, wii, and whatever other new thing comes out next.

Budget: TBD. This is a fact finding mission. I'm just trying to learn what my options are and cost.