H93 2311 horns

[kartsmart]

I would like to build a pair of H-93 2" short horns , would anyone have a drawing of these.
It would seem like its a straight forward design.
thanks

[kartsmart]

if it not to easy to find , then it would be easy to make if I could get a drawing
can anyone help me out

[1audiohack]

I have a pair, what dimensional resolution do you want?

[kartsmart]

I have a pair, what dimensional resolution do you want?


we know the throat dia. 2" I guess I just need the throat length from flange to mouth and mouth dia
If I am correct the horn is a straight tapper correct ?

[grumpy]

It is not a straight taper (conical). It is an exponential horn. It is also very short,
but it is a continuation of the taper starting in the driver's throat. I posted a graphic
showing the diameter vs length here somewhere... (I'll have a look).

Ah here (wrapped up in a 1.5" DIY effort):
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?2171-NEW-1.5-inch-horn-for-4345-4343&p=185774&viewfull=1#post185774

[1audiohack]

The pair I have that measure on average 1.925" at the throat entry and 3.875" at the mouth.They are 4.610 overall length.

The expansion of one wall is as follows moving up from the bottom of the throat in one tenth of an inch increments:

Y axis...Z axis
0.100 = 0.010
0.200 = 0.015
0.300 = 0.022
0.400 = 0.030
0.500 = 0.038
0.600 = 0.048
0.700 = 0.058
0.800 = 0.069
0.900 = 0.080
1.000 = 0.094
1.100 = 0.107
1.200 = 0.122
1.300 = 0.137
1.400 = 0.152
1.500 = 0.169
1.600 = 0.187
1.700 = 0.205
1.800 = 0.224
1.900 = 0.244
2.000 = 0.264
2,100 = 0.286
2.200 = 0.307
2.300 = 0.329
2.400 = 0.350
2.500 = 0.373
2.600 = 0.396
2.700 = 0.421
2.800 = 0.444
2.900 = 0.468
3.000 = 0.489
3.100 = 0.515
3.200 = 0.539
3.300 = 0.564
3.400 = 0.590
3.500 = 0.614
3.600 = 0.643
3.700 = 0.670
3.800 = 0.698
3.900 = 0.728
4.000 = 0.757
4.100 = 0.790
4.200 = 0.825
4.300 = 0.863
4.400 = 0.900
4.500 = 0.943
4.575 = 0.975

So in the end 1.925 + 0,975 + 0.975 = 3.875" The begin / end descrepancy in the Z axis is the ball diameter of the probe.

Hope that helps,
Barry.

[Jan Daugaard]

It would appear that the H93 alias the 2311 is a hyperbolic and not an exponential horn.

Given a 4.61" (117.1 mm) long horn with a throat diameter of 1.925" (48.9 mm) and a mouth diameter of 3.875" (98.4 mm):

The radius in mm of such an exponential horn as a function of the distance from the throat is given by
exp( 0.0059748552 * x + 3.1965279612)
and plotted in black.

The red curves are interpolations of 1audiohack's data.

The hyperbolic horn best fitting 1audiohack's data is given by
sqrt( 1877.6679 * (cosh( 0.0151278 * x) + 0.36 * sinh( 0.0151278 * x)) / pi)
and plotted in green.

All measurements in the graph are in mm.

[grumpy]

The red lines are probably the most helpful. Clear that it is not a conical 'taper' which
should help the OP.


It may have been considered, but recall that for the equation, the flare start is well
into the throat of the driver, starting at closer to 1.5" -diameter-, which is what I think
was meant above, vs radius.

[kartsmart]

[QUOTE=1audiohack;322186]The pair I have that measure on average 1.925" at the throat entry and 3.875" at the mouth.They are 4.610 overall length.

The expansion of one wall is as follows moving up from the bottom of the throat in one tenth of an inch increments:

Thanks thats what Ali was looking for ] maybe what I need to do is find a single horn and make a silicone mold and cast some ?

[1audiohack]

Thanks thats what Ali was looking for ] maybe what I need to do is find a single horn and make a silicone mold and cast some ?

I guess you could, are they finally getting hard to find? Sounds like a lathe project to me.

Shooting from the hip I would say we could write a program for something as simple as these in about an hour and drop one out of the lathe every 10-12 minutes. Our lathe does not have live tooling so we would have to move them to the mill for the drilled and tapped holes, probably another 10 minute cycle time.

[Mr. Widget]

Sounds like a lathe project to me.Yep... but probably only for the hobbyist. I can't imagine that it would be possible to get the raw material cost for them much less the labor.

I haven't priced them in years, but with patience they must still pop up from time to time at a good price. Currently Jammin Jersey has 5 H93s in stock at $150 ea.


Widget

[1audiohack]

Looks like $42.00 each for material (6061 T6 extruded round) and less than 40 minute total cycle time. With CAD and CAM included we could make six at $100 each and not lose. Since they are not JBL though I don't know if anyone would buy them, at $150 I would run them all day!

[ivica]

Looks like $42.00 each for material (6061 T6 extruded round) and less than 40 minute total cycle time. With CAD and CAM included we could make six at $100 each and not lose. Since they are not JBL though I don't know if anyone would buy them, at $150 I would run them all day!

May be very similar "SELENIUM HL 14-50" can be used (off course depending of its purpose)

http://www.lautsprechershop.de/pdf/selenium/selenium_hl14_50.pdf
http://www.jblselenium.com.br/site/assets/produtosfinal/976_pdfManual.pdf
http://www.jblselenium.com.br/site/assets/produtosfinal/328_pdfManual.pdf



which is priced about 25$ per piece.

http://www.amazon.com/Selenium-HL14-50-Exponential-45x45-4-Bolt/dp/B000MMXA1M

It is aluminum exponential-short-horn, but I expect that can be used with JBL 2" drivers.
As the original one it has relatively narrow ("beaming") polar response

I know that it is not JBL, and its mouth is larger then H93 (2311), and concerning the fixing holes for JBL244x drivers, the holes on HL14-50 has to be "rasped" towards center because JBL diameter hole distance is about 99mm, and on the HD14-50 horn the distance is 102mm, but if it is "masked" with 2308 'lenses", may can be used.

[Mannermusic]

May be very similar "SELENIUM HL 14-50" can be used (off course depending of its purpose)

http://www.lautsprechershop.de/pdf/selenium/selenium_hl14_50.pdf
http://www.jblselenium.com.br/site/assets/produtosfinal/976_pdfManual.pdf
http://www.jblselenium.com.br/site/assets/produtosfinal/328_pdfManual.pdf



which is priced about 25$ per piece.

http://www.amazon.com/Selenium-HL14-50-Exponential-45x45-4-Bolt/dp/B000MMXA1M

It is aluminum exponential-short-horn, but I expect that can be used with JBL 2" drivers.
As the original one it has relatively narrow ("beaming") polar response

I know that it is not JBL, and its mouth is larger then H93 (2311), and concerning the fixing holes for JBL244x drivers, the holes on HL14-50 has to be "rasped" towards center because JBL diameter hole distance is about 99mm, and on the HD14-50 horn the distance is 102mm, but if it is "masked" with 2308 'lenses", may can be used.

Yes, have used these for some years, have done considerable comparison with H93 as well as Stereo Labs tractrix of similar size. Do a nice job in my 4-way rig 1200 - 10K. But, it is all personal preference, application and development. No magic. I'd listen to a lot of horns before I launched a production project! Mike

[ivica]

Yes, have used these for some years, have done considerable comparison with H93 as well as Stereo Labs tractrix of similar size. Do a nice job in my 4-way rig 1200 - 10K. But, it is all personal preference, application and development. No magic. I'd listen to a lot of horns before I launched a production project! Mike

Just for my curiosity: Have you tried Selenium HL 14-50 with JBL 'slant lenses' 2308. working together...

[Mannermusic]

Just for my curiosity: Have you tried Selenium HL 14-50 with JBL 'slant lenses' 2308. working together...

Yes, prefer without. But, I doubt the JBL lens works optimally with the HL 14-50 exponential bell. I suspect the relatively straight H93 is purposely designed so that acoustical energy impacts the lens correctly - it's designed as an assembly (HL93). As someone above said, it is not really a pure exponential horn. With the HL 14-50, the bell is what determines acoustical propagation (it doesn't need a lens).

[more10]

Consider these : JMLC-400 (http://www.horns.pl/jmlc400.html) , E-JMLC-600 (http://www.horns.pl/ejmlc600.html). LeCleac'h horns made in Poland.

[Mannermusic]

Consider these : JMLC-400 (http://www.horns.pl/jmlc400.html) , E-JMLC-600 (http://www.horns.pl/ejmlc600.html). LeCleac'h horns made in Poland.

Wow, great stuff. Thanks. An excellent example of the endless possibilities with today's tools. An endless experiment. Excellent hobby! Mike

[1audiohack]

I had some time this morning to experiment with the onboard design program Mazatrol on one of our Mazak lathes today. I wanted to see if it would/could cut a continuously varying curve without having to write it in G. The short answer is no. Undeterred I input the measurements I posted in this thread some time ago and cut a series of tapers 0.100' long with a 0.500" radius programmed on each transition for smoothing just to see what it would cut and after a couple of passes got this:

[grumpy]

Looks like it came out pretty clean! :)

[1audiohack]

Yeah not bad thanks.

I have been thinking about working up a 1.5" version with an attempt at a better termination and or a more rapid flair rate/profile (oblate spheroid?) since these 2311 are the weakest link in my 4350's. I wish I knew more about horn profiles as it seems that what I really need to do now is create that part and cut and test.

What I probably should do is just park a 4338 on top and be done but that won't look right.

[grumpy]

OS templates with rolled off termination have been posted here somewhere (long/detailed DIY effort), ... It will take more baffle real estate and either be set back further or stick out... so time alignment will need a revisit. or at least a check... as I'm sure you're aware :)

[ivica]

Yeah not bad thanks.

I have been thinking about working up a 1.5" version with an attempt at a better termination and or a more rapid flair rate/profile (oblate spheroid?) since these 2311 are the weakest link in my 4350's. I wish I knew more about horn profiles as it seems that what I really need to do now is create that part and cut and test.

What I probably should do is just park a 4338 on top and be done but that won't look right.

may be helpful

r(x)=Rt*sqrt( 1 + (x/Rt *tan(Q))^2)
Rt throat radius, x distance from the throat, Q- horn-wall to horn axis angle

but using CD type of horn, a lot of work has to be done on the 4350 compression driver networks, not to mention that the baffle hole for the horn has to be much larger then for the 2311 horn, with 2308 lenses, in order to get horizontal dispersion of about +/- 40 degs

May be PT-H95FH or PT-F1010HF would give good results for 1.5inch drivers.

As I have remembered JMLC horn would give the shortest horn, but beaming would be present for HF section.

Regards
ivica

[grumpy]

here's what I was trying to recall:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?12126-DIY-Axially-symmetric-oblate-spheroid-CD-waveguides-in-solid-Oak&p=123393&viewfull=1#post123393

[1audiohack]

Thank you Ivica and Grumpy.

Both are very helpful indeed.

My 4350's are four way active, there are no passive components in them at all and while they are far from stock, the cabinets are completely unmodified and I won't be cutting them up.

I was thinking along the lines of the small horn with the five inch mouth with the tractrix transition before termination and through bolting the outer to the inner sandwiching the baffle between them even if this only gave me radius'd termination on the sides before it runs into the 12" and or the 2405's.

A confession to JBL heresy, the horn that sounds most at home on top of these is the Community BRH90's. They are 33" wide and 11.5" tall and look very much like the horn used in the Ocean Way HR3? They are sweet. But it just looks wrong.

Thanks again guys!

[ivica]

Thank you Ivica and Grumpy.

Both are very helpful indeed.

My 4350's are four way active, there are no passive components in them at all and while they are far from stock, the cabinets are completely unmodified and I won't be cutting them up.

I was thinking along the lines of the small horn with the five inch mouth with the tractrix transition before termination and through bolting the outer to the inner sandwiching the baffle between them even if this only gave me radius'd termination on the sides before it runs into the 12" and or the 2405's.

A confession to JBL heresy, the horn that sounds most at home on top of these is the Community BRH90's. They are 33" wide and 11.5" tall and look very much like the horn used in the Ocean Way HR3? They are sweet. But it just looks wrong.

Thanks again guys!

Hmmm, so something like 2350 would be acceptable too ???
Why not A290 Dr. Yuichi

ivica

[1audiohack]

Hmmm, so something like 2350 would be acceptable too ???
Why not A290 Dr. Yuichi

ivica


Sorry I wasn't concise. I just don't like the look of anything on top of them. I have a pair of Y290's that are beautiful and sound great but,,, of all the horns I have, the pair of walnut Lake type horns look closest to home on top but I would rather them be all they can be and look like they came new. A compromise to be sure.

All the best ,
Barry.

[Challenger604]

Jammin still have 3 pairs of H93. Bought one. Cheaper than ebay!

http://www.jamminjersey.com/speakers.php?prod=jblcomp



Sorry I wasn't concise. I just don't like the look of anything on top of them. I have a pair of Y290's that are beautiful and sound great but,,, of all the horns I have, the pair of walnut Lake type horns look closest to home on top but I would rather them be all they can be and look like they came new. A compromise to be sure.

All the best ,
Barry.

[4343]

...
A confession to JBL heresy, the horn that sounds most at home on top of these is the Community BRH90's. They are 33" wide and 11.5" tall and look very much like the horn used in the Ocean Way HR3? They are sweet. But it just looks wrong.
...

Wow, I've been thinking of dragging my RH90's down from the attic for a few years, this sort of made me want to hear them again. Maybe next year, I will get them down. I think they would look kool with a pair of those little Selinium Neo drivers behind them, but those are hard to find any more...