New Horns

[aktivkampi]

Hi, here are some news from my Hifi System!!!:)

After some experience with my 2360 Horns, the result was not really satisfying at all. There was always trouble in the upper midrange, no passive eq was perfect. Active digital crossover (Behringer DCX 2496) did to much noise for my ears. So I tried the 2397 with good results, but the sound of this setup was to much "hifi like" for me. After hearing the TAD TH 4001, I started some research, but there was nothing I could find. It seemed to me, that the Yuichi A 290 was the closest to the TH 4001. A friend of me converted the plans for me into CAD, a CNC maschinist did the mechanical part. The first hearing was very satisfying, its a combination of both worlds (the directness of the big boys and the behavior of the 2397). Now the horns will be coloured, for you some first pics......to be continued:)

[aktivkampi]

....some more pics...:)

[aktivkampi]

....and this is the colour, the horns will get....;)

[pos]

really nice :rockon2:

That also looks easy to assemble!
Would you mind sharing the CAD plans?
Are you going to sell some of these?

What driver are you using on them?

[Lee in Montreal]

@OP - Great job!!!


Would you mind sharing the CAD plans?

@POS - They are available here.
http://www.geocities.jp/arai401204/Download_Page/Download.html

[pos]

these are just drawings scanned in pdf, no real CAD plans

[Lee in Montreal]

these are just drawings scanned in pdf, no real CAD plans

The shop that will do the CNC work will most likely want to redraw them anyway. They will have better control on the process and a better understanding of the steps. Doing the cad is not difficult... ;)

[pos]

I see what you mean, and I imagine each CNC machine will have its specificities that will impact the final plan...

I would love to try a scaled down 1.5" version of this horn, and see how they compare to the H9800.
I think Woody Banks build such 1.5" A290 horns for his 2435HPL one or two years ago...

[aktivkampi]

@ pos, thank you for the complements....

Im using a D.A.S M 401 driver. It is similar to the JBL 2440. I' ve tried different Dia's, with different results. Sharing the plans is possible, but no good idea, as Lee told, the CNC Shop will need their own plans......
Selling is maby possible, but it's not really cheap ! Please send me PM.

[Jakob]

Nice work!

I'm always impressed with people that actually do and not just think of what they might do.

I'm sure they sound good as well :)

One question: have you experienced any problems having the 077's in a position so far back? Though a location near or in the same vertical plane as the mid driver seems like the way to go phase/time wise, it would seem you could get a lot of reflections from the top of the mid horn affecting the 077's response.
Any thoughts about this?

What do the rest of your system look like? Did I see part of a 2206 in the pictures?

[aktivkampi]

Hi Jacob

I've done various experimentation with the 077 and for my ears, that positioning is the best possible...... and even easy to handle!!! The rest of my system is 2 x 2235 in 160 liter cornersubs, actually 2206 as low-mid (but Í've got 2 brand new TAD 1601a) which will follow the 2206. Mid High is the new horn with D.A.S M 401 driver and the 077. Driven 3 chanel active by an analog crossover, the part between high and mid high crossed passiv.

[spkrman57]

2206 as low-mid (but Í've got 2 brand new TAD 1601a) which will follow the 2206.

Do you feel that the 2206's are not good enough for the low-mid bandwidth?

Regards, Ron

[Lee in Montreal]

Nice work! I'm always impressed with people that actually do and not just think of what they might do.

There are many handy people on this forum. The sharing of ideas and methods is great too.

Lee

[Allanvh5150]

I am surprised more people aren't doing this. Most 3 axis CNC'c will do this stuff quite easy if you can produce a model. Making horns out of MDF would offer better sonic results than the originals if anyone wanted to make a copy. Down under there are plenty of shops that would be glad to do this sort of thing.

Allan.

[aktivkampi]

Do you feel that the 2206's are not good enough for the low-mid bandwidth?

Regards, Ron

Hi Ron,

the 2206 is really good, but the TAD is better !!! You will have much lower distorsion, clearer mids, the speaker is a little bit louder and can go to a lower crossoverpoint to the 2235 (50 Hz / 24 dB). But as I said before, the 2206 is really good.....:D

[Lee in Montreal]

I am surprised more people aren't doing this. Most 3 axis CNC'c will do this stuff quite easy if you can produce a model. Making horns out of MDF would offer better sonic results than the originals if anyone wanted to make a copy. Down under there are plenty of shops that would be glad to do this sort of thing.

The problem is that it is extremely time consuming. The less you want to sand, the longer it takes to machine as the resolution must be quite high. That's why I am doing another project with a non-industrial CNC wood work supplier. A real industrial CNC shop will charge by the hour of CNC. Basically, doing four halves (two complete sets) can take a whole day on the CNC machine. Few industrial shops are willing to block a machine for a day when they can make way more money doing kitchen cabinets... :D So, basically, you'd need to find a small scale shop to do it.

But I agree that using CNC makes building complex horns much easier.

[Allanvh5150]

The problem is that it is extremely time consuming. The less you want to sand, the longer it takes to machine as the resolution must be quite high. That's why I am doing another project with a non-industrial CNC wood work supplier. A real industrial CNC shop will charge by the hour of CNC. Basically, doing four halves (two complete sets) can take a whole day on the CNC machine. Few industrial shops are willing to block a machine for a day when they can make way more money doing kitchen cabinets... :D So, basically, you'd need to find a small scale shop to do it.

But I agree that using CNC makes building complex horns much easier.

A whole day? I work on CNC routers all day everyday. Mainly on the servicing side now. If the model is done and the blanks are glued up, these horns would take 15 - 20 minutes each to machine with the correct tooling. As for sanding, it is very easy to get a finish taht would only toke a few minutes to prepare for the paint shop.

Allan.

[Lee in Montreal]

A whole day? I work on CNC routers all day everyday. Mainly on the servicing side now. If the model is done and the blanks are glued up, these horns would take 15 - 20 minutes each to machine with the correct tooling. As for sanding, it is very easy to get a finish taht would only toke a few minutes to prepare for the paint shop.

Allan.

Just doing one panel of my 2397 repros was 30 minutes including installation on the jig. When out of the machine, no sanding was required. I was there, I timed. Doing a bigger Iwata has much more material to remove, especially if done in two halves. Even if going in two steps (large bit with fast advance and small ball point with slow advance) it won't take less than 1h45 hours per half including setting up the "chunk of wood". Just looking at the video I posted the other day, one can see it's a slow process, where I would personally want the least sanding to avoid inaccuracies :D

Video - I'd consider it large steps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MFcTfjeMI0

Where I am going. Except that I will have each face of a half machined to make for a lighter horn. Which is perhaps where our differences in time estimation come from.
http://img249.imageshack.us/slideshow/webplayer.php?id=p8140735.jpg

[Allanvh5150]

Ok, Now I understand why so long. These machines are entry level and very slow. This is the type of machine I have access to. This is also a small machine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJl4WgOxzW4

Allan.

[Lee in Montreal]

If I had access to a 5-axis machine, I would probably do things differently :D But hey, shops with expensive machines usually charge a premium rate too. If you have the chance to actually have one at your work place, then you are a lucky SOB :D

Nonetheless, I am glad that people start understanding the benefits of CNC work on horns. Hopefully the days of the belt sanders are behind us ;)

[Allanvh5150]

I actually work for myself. However, I have many customers with 3, 4, 5 and 6 axis machines. Chargeout rate in NZ is usually about $2-300 NZD per hour. If the tooling and programming is spot on, it makes for a very cheap project.

Allan.

[Lee in Montreal]

I actually work for myself. However, I have many customers with 3, 4, 5 and 6 axis machines. Chargeout rate in NZ is usually about $2-300 NZD per hour. If the tooling and programming is spot on, it makes for a very cheap project.

Allan.

If you were close by, I surely would send you some SolidWorks files. :D

BTW I spent two weeks in Queenstow (Southern Island) coming from Auckland, and found the area very, very nice. Too bad I didn't have time to go to Invergcargill and visit the Burt Munro museum...

[Allanvh5150]

A pitty NZ wasnt closer to the rest of the world. I could go into production.:D

Allan.

[Lee in Montreal]

A pitty NZ wasnt closer to the rest of the world. I could go into production.:D

Actually you could catter to the Asian market. Lots of audiophiles in Japan.

[Mr. Widget]

A real industrial CNC shop will charge by the hour of CNC. Basically, doing four halves (two complete sets) can take a whole day on the CNC machine. Few industrial shops are willing to block a machine for a day when they can make way more money doing kitchen cabinets... :D So, basically, you'd need to find a small scale shop to do it.

But I agree that using CNC makes building complex horns much easier.I don't remember what our machine run time was for the Westlake and 2397 clones, but I don't think it was that long. Our machine was a 1990s vintage German model, some of the modern machines are amazingly fast... you might want to shop around.


Widget

[jf65]

http://img249.imageshack.us/slideshow/webplayer.php?id=p8140735.jpg[/URL]

Hello,
You made an absolutely beautiful Iwata. I made mine following the method of 'lAudiophile" which are correct but yours are perfect. Just one question: how did you made the transition from square to round at the throat ?

Jean

[Lee in Montreal]

Hi Jean

Those are not mine. The pictures are from somebody else's project and this is the method I will use. I prefer this method of laminating wood. The horizontal lamination was fine for people using a belt sander or not including the sides. With CNC, I'd prefer the vertical lamination. To answer your question about the transition from a 2" circle to a rectangle with rounded corners, it is simple CAD morphing. Determine the initial and end shapes as well as the progression rate. The program will do the morphing.

BTW Hat off to aktvikampi for a great project. Let's stop discussing other projects than his...:D

[richluvsound]

Hi Lee ,

I remember doing a lot of sanding on Mats CNC h9800 ... it became a labour of love and not a money maker .... Resin cast on the other hand ..... with very little finishing by comparison . Don't give up though .

Rich

[Lee in Montreal]

Hi Lee ,

I remember doing a lot of sanding on Mats CNC h9800 ... it became a labour of love and not a money maker .... Resin cast on the other hand ..... with very little finishing by comparison . Don't give up though .

Rich

Not to spoil the original purpose of this thread :D I will start another one in regard of casting horns in resin...

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?31550-Casting-horns-from-resin&p=318134#post318134

[Woody Banks]

Very nice job on the horns!:hurray:

[aktivkampi]

.....some more pics.....

[aktivkampi]

.....some more pics.....

[Allanvh5150]

Nice!

[Wardsweb]

Very nice indeed. Did you paint them or have them done?

[Mr. Widget]

Nice!Very nice!

I love the look of wood, but I have never been a fan of the look of the TAD plywood horns... I think your gloss white looks pretty sharp. :thmbsup:

I hope you used a good sealer. I usually use a catalyzed polyester sealer on MDF that I want to be highly finished... other sealers I have used have allowed enough movement in the wood so that the glue bonds have eventually shown through the finish.


Widget

[aktivkampi]

The Horns are painted by a professinal car painter. He did such things several times for me.
I thing he used a good sealer, because there were never shown glue bonds through the painting in the past.....
With the painting, the sound is much sweeter than before......:p (ok, this is nonsens, but looks much better)
Since I'm building loudspeakers in the past 20 years, this is the first time, I'm nearly satisfied.:hurray:

[Mr. Widget]

I thing he used a good sealer, because there were never shown glue bonds through the painting in the past.....Good to hear!


With the painting, the sound is much sweeter than before......:p (ok, this is nonsens, but looks much better)Glad you added that last part... I was worrying about you. ;)


Since I'm building loudspeakers in the past 20 years, this is the first time, I'm nearly satisfied.:hurray:Excellent! Congratulations!!


Widget

[more10]

Very nice horns indeed! :applaud::applaud::applaud::applaud::applaud::appl aud:

[jerv]

Hi, aktivkampi!

Very nice horns!!

I also have a pair of TAD TH4001 horns, finished in natural wood. I am building a 4-way system of them, using the 2123H as lower midrange, the 2445/2450SL driver in the horns, and the 2405 as supertweeter. Bass is 2226 with 2241 subs.

What crossover frequency do you use on your TH4001 horns? How do they sound compared to your previous 2360-based system?

Espen

[pos]

Hi, aktivkampi!

Very nice horns!!

I also have a pair of TAD TH4001 horns, finished in natural wood. I am building a 4-way system of them, using the 2123H as lower midrange, the 2445/2450SL driver in the horns, and the 2405 as supertweeter. Bass is 2226 with 2241 subs.

What crossover frequency do you use on your TH4001 horns? How do they sound compared to your previous 2360-based system?

Espen
2123H + TH4001? What crossover frequencies are you using?
I have hear very good reports from people using 2450 in TH4001 down to 450Hz (with steep FIR filters, in the range of 48db/oct), and without tweeter :
http://www.fd-audio.fr/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=83

that would be low enough to ditch the 2123H altogether

(sorry to hijack your question)

[aktivkampi]

Hi Espen

Actually I'm using 630 Hz 18 dB Butterworth crossover with very good results. A friend of me uses the same horn but with 2226 as Low/Mid. He crossed at 500 Hz 24 Hz with even good results. I think, it is depending, what driver is in use. The older Aluminium Diaphragms are good for going down to 500 Hz.
The TH 4001 Doesn't reproduce that big bubble as the 2360 does. The horn sound more naturell. In my system, I did not use any EQ. Everyone who heard it until now, was very satisfied......

Guido