Best 12" mids for PA

[GCT]

HI

Just getting a sound system together. We have:

2x 18" 2241 600w subs
1x 2445 CP driver 150w
Per side

We're looking for a good 2x 12" cab for mids 80-4000 range. Any suggestions for the right JBL 12" for mids. I have a 2x12" cabinet design with a 14º toe out angle.

Any thoughts.

Cheers

GCT

[jcrobso]

About the only ones that will stand up are the JBL guitar speakers, D120F, K120 or E120.

[edgewound]

2202 is a good 12" mid

[Mr. Widget]

2202 is a good 12" midIt was purpose designed for that, but not up to 4KHz... then again with a 2445 per side, why would you want any 12" to try to make it up to 4KHz?

Actually it will be down a bit at 80Hz as well, but a nudge of EQ would remedy that.


Widget

[Lee in Montreal]

I am myself currently contemplating adding a 12" 2202/04/06 for the 100Hz-500Hz range. I too have a 2445 on a 2350 horn with a 2405 on top. BTW I don't think the 2445 can go any higher than 10Khz without some serious Eq.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=47110&d=1282271852

I am even also contemplating using a 15" 2225 instead of a 12" driver as I have a couple units not being used. ;-)

[edgewound]

It was purpose designed for that, but not up to 4KHz... then again with a 2445 per side, why would you want any 12" to try to make it up to 4KHz?

Actually it will be down a bit at 80Hz as well, but a nudge of EQ would remedy that.


Widget

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2202.pdf

Usable frequency range of the 2202 is 60-4000Hz...120-3000Hz +/- 2 dB.

One could cross the 2445 at 1500-2000Hz and extend it's high-end reach, significantly reduce it's ear fatigue and greatly extend is power handling and life span.

The 2241 sounds great for live SR crossed at 150 or so. Really fills in the upper bass region with a nice fatness.

[maxwedge]

I have 2206's, 2202H's and E120's and I like the 2206 the best, even though it's classified as a LF speaker.

IMO I wouldn't crossover a 12 much higher than 1k because of falling off axis response around that frequency. In my experience 12's are typically crossed over at 1200hz for SR.

I think if you're going to be doing SR you better go out at get some 15's for bass (above the 2241's for subs) before investing in 12's.

[GCT]

Thanks - This is PA for outdoors!

I was thinking 2x12 per side.That's only 200w of mid with the 2202. Wouldn't I need more power to go with the 1200w bass subs? I thought I would need 2x300w or 2x 600w per side, but I'm asking because I don't really know. I have a front facing 2x12 cabinet design with 14º toe out or a 1x12 flared cabinet design. What's the best shot.

GCT

Have been using 2x15 Beyma 250w but they're borrowed. Someone suggested 12" for mids so I was checking into it. Is 2x15 a better move?

[Allanvh5150]

E120's work pretty well but replace the aluminium dome with a paper one. Personally I would go to a 2 x 15 crossed over at 80hz and bring in the 2445's at 800hz.

Allan.

[GCT]

E120's work pretty well but replace the aluminium dome with a paper one.

Mmm back to my original crossover ideas.
We're talking about the centre dust cover? Is it for weight or does it ring?
GCT

[GCT]

Another thought. I have a couple of Beyma 12" I could try with the 15". If I crossover 4 way what crossover points are a good starting point?
GCT

That would be:
2241 x 18" x 2 x 600w subs
Beyma 15" x 2 x 250w lower mids
Beyma 12" x 1 x 250w hight mids
2445 x 1 x 150w Top

[maxwedge]

E120's work pretty well but replace the aluminium dome with a paper one. Personally I would go to a 2 x 15 crossed over at 80hz and bring in the 2445's at 800hz.

Allan.
I agree, the 15's really bring up the mid-bass slam.:bouncy: Then you can add some 12's and move the horn up to 1200 hz. May be cross the 12's around 250-350hz? You're going to need to play with an active xo and see what sounds best.

[jcrobso]

Another thought. I have a couple of Beyma 12" I could try with the 15". If I crossover 4 way what crossover points are a good starting point?
GCT

That would be:
2241 x 18" x 2 x 600w subs
Beyma 15" x 2 x 250w lower mids
Beyma 12" x 1 x 250w hight mids
2445 x 1 x 150w Top
Beyma makes a 12" guitar speaker that is a replacement for the JBL E120.

[GCT]

Thanks. That's all useful stuff to know. I'll know what to look for.

Would you have that Beyma model number please.

[maxwedge]

http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma%20liberty-1.htm

[Allanvh5150]

Mmm back to my original crossover ideas.
We're talking about the centre dust cover? Is it for weight or does it ring?
GCT

In My experience will aluminum dustcaps for SR, they tend to rip and then start to buzz. Replacing the dustcap will avoid this issue at a later date. Top end would be affected a little but if you cross the 2445 over at a reasonable level, you will not have to worry.

Allan.

[GCT]

http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma%20liberty-1.htm

Oh Thanks. I used to have these in my Fender Twin Reverb many years ago and was more than contented (often they were just too loud)
Cheers
GCT

[GCT]

In My experience will aluminum dustcaps for SR, they tend to rip and then start to buzz. Replacing the dustcap will avoid this issue at a later date. Top end would be affected a little but if you cross the 2445 over at a reasonable level, you will not have to worry.

Thanks Allan
GCT

[GCT]

OK. We got 4 x 2226H for now. So altogether we have:

1 x 2445H
2 x 2226H
2 x 2241H

Per side

Going back to the 12" mids, I like the look of the 2206s.

Do we need 1 x12" 600w mid or should we be looking at 2 x 12" per side?

Cheers

GCT

[Lee in Montreal]

OK. We got 4 x 2226H for now. So altogether we have:

1 x 2445H
2 x 2226H
2 x 2241H

I think that what you need is tweeters, not 12" mids (the 2227 will do that duty).

2241 - 30 - 80Hz
2226 - 40 - 500Hz
2445 - 500 - 9Khz
2402/04/05 - 9Khz +

[GCT]

Would you use a passive (6db/oct?)or active filter to cross between horn and bullet?

[Lee in Montreal]

Would you use a passive (6db/oct?)or active filter to cross between horn and bullet?

It all depends on how your crossover is configured. You might as well run a 3-way crossover with the 2226/2445/2402 drivers, and run the 2441 subs directly of an amp with a digital filter. If being on a budget, that's what I would do.

BTW Seeing that you are running 2226 and 2241 bass drivers, I think there won't be much "action" below 40Hz. That's why I'd take a 2240 over a 2241. And 2240s are dirt cheap and go slightly lower.

BTW Did you mention what type of cabinets you'll be using and what type of music you'll be playing?

[JBL 4645]

I’ve been looking at JBL 2206 12” on the ebay recently. 45 Hz - 3.5 kHz response
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/2206.pdf

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JBL-2206H-12-High-Power-Woofer-Good-Condition-/150639012297?pt=DJ_Gear_Lighting&hash=item2312c8e9c9#ht_1571wt_825

[GCT]

It all depends on how your crossover is configured. You might as well run a 3-way crossover with the 2226/2445/2402 drivers, and run the 2441 subs directly of an amp with a digital filter. If being on a budget, that's what I would do.

BTW Seeing that you are running 2226 and 2241 bass drivers, I think there won't be much "action" below 40Hz. That's why I'd take a 2240 over a 2241. And 2240s are dirt cheap and go slightly lower.

BTW Did you mention what type of cabinets you'll be using and what type of music you'll be playing?

We have an active LR active 3 way crossover and no passives. What digital filter would you put on the Subs.
The subs are flat ported to 40Hz f3 and the low mids ported flat to 50Hz f3. We're doing local outdoor festivals. At least that's the plan
Cheers

[Lee in Montreal]

What digital filter would you put on the Subs.

Most new power amplifiers now have a built-in digital crossover.

52264

52265

Otherwise, if you already have an older power amp for the 2441, any cheap crossover will have all the bells and whistles to cut, limit and compress.

[GCT]

OK Thanks. That seems like a good option.
Is the passive bullet a bad idea?

[Lee in Montreal]

OK Thanks. That seems like a good option.
Is the passive bullet a bad idea?

No. But in these days of cheap electronic, it is not worth it. Unless you really have to. Also, you may need two bullets per tower, to match the powerfull 2445 and the pair of 2226...

[JBL 4645]

No. But in these days of cheap electronic, it is not worth it. Unless you really have to. Also, you may need two bullets per tower, to match the powerfull 2445 and the pair of 2226...

There are few listings for JBL bullet tweeters some are bit steep!

http://shop.ebay.co.uk/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=JBL+bullet+tweeters+&_sacat=See-All-Categories

[GCT]

OK Thanks for all the info. Will get on it as soon as I can.
Cheers

GCT

[dannyrumble]

I like the JBL 2202's for this job. The TAD 1201's are also a major consideration. Either one.


Danny

[Eaulive]

I use B&C 12PE32.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eaulive/5644403211/in/set-72157626260334894

[GCT]

I use B&C 12PE32.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eaulive/5644403211/in/set-72157626260334894

Nice looking cabs. So whats your whole system loaded with? And what crossover points have you chosen?
GCT

[Eaulive]

Nice looking cabs. So whats your whole system loaded with? And what crossover points have you chosen?
GCT

The thread is here: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?30736-My-4520-project :D

[maxserg]

Remember that Atc made some really good midranges(12")

[Oldmics]

I"m surprised nobody has suggested the 2204 drivers. :confused:

If your doing festivals-your gonna need more than 2-12s a side.

Oldmics

[GCT]

Yeah, we already got 4 2226's since I started this thread. Our horns go lower than most so for now we'll probably look for some tweeters next. But it's surprising that at loud volume you don't notice the lack of top as your ears actually shut down. I also noticed that most 12" don't go that high before they start beaming. Probably why other systems are using 10" to get up to the horn.To keep the vocals "on paper" as I heard it said, you would have to

Cheers and thanks for all your feedback.

[maxserg]

I guess that Ae TD12M 12' speakers are probably the most cappable in high crossover frequency. Almost 96Db/W/Meter and capable to to 2KHz.