Altec voix du Theatre A7/A5 anybody done this?

[hifiapart]

Hi,
Anybody done anything like this to "raise the lower bass output..."?

If so feedback would be appreciated.
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[Ruediger]

I do not understand what You gain.

ruediger

[Lee in Montreal]

I do not understand what You gain.

Me neither. And I don't understand what was the goal of this modification. I have listened to instrumental music (jazz and blues) on A7 speakers and they sound very natural. With the mods done as shown above, the volume for the the original drivers was reduced by at least 75%, and the volume for the added driver is most likely not enough. In both cases it has raised even more the Q of the cabinets. Raising the enclosure's frequency, which is what you were trying to lower...

My suggestion is to get back to the original design and simply use one proper driver. Be it an Altec or JBL. You'll get a tight bass. if you want deep, then simply buy two subwoofers.

[Altec Best]

Me neither. And I don't understand what was the goal of this modification. I have listened to instrumental music (jazz and blues) on A7 speakers and they sound very natural. With the mods done as shown above, the volume for the the original drivers was reduced by at least 75%, and the volume for the added driver is most likely not enough. In both cases it has raised even more the Q of the cabinets. Raising the enclosure's frequency, which is what you were trying to lower...

My suggestion is to get back to the original design and simply use one proper driver. Be it an Altec or JBL. You'll get a tight bass. if you want deep, then simply buy two subwoofers.

+2 , You should just built sub boxes for the 18"s I think you are trying to get as much output from the same area of floor space.There really is no Free Lunches so to speak in speaker design.Those cabinets need to be twice as big now that you have dual woofers.The woofers can't share the same amount of volume,they need their own,(double)minimum. ;)

I agree with Lee !!

[hifiapart]

Well i have not done this but was considering.....guess it seems like the wrong idea...

[Lee in Montreal]

Last winter I listened to some blues and african drums on a pair of A7 in a medium size room. Source was vinyl, powered by a lamp amp. A single horn for mids and high. Damn it sounded natural. Sure it didn't have the low end extension, but such extension never existed when these cabs, drivers and music were created.

The ideal set-up would be to have a set of A7 at the front, and two subs behind you. That will fill the room gently. Your will hear the tight contrabass strings and drum skins from the front, while your body will feel the infra bass from behind or "somewhere". The best of both worlds :D

[hifiapart]

Lee,
What recommendation for subs?
I have valve amps, 300hz horn (cut at 500hz) and tweeter.
Thanks for idea(s)
Tim

[Lee in Montreal]

Hi Tim

If you already have the A7, most likely you already know they don't have "much" below 50Hz. Perhaps you can build a pair of subs for the 20Hz-60Hz area. Basically, the subs will only add the physical enveloppe to the music. There are hundreds of off-the-shelf subs available out there. But if you have a set of A7, perhaps your intention is to "keep it in the family" by using JBL drivers... ;)

What about subs built around a set of 2245h? You can probably drive them with subwoofer amplifier plates with their own crossovers.

[hifiapart]

Lee,
Had vot boxes moved to omken 360 hread some vot boxes at a friends place, going back to vot......the onken goes lower but remains dry "mat" and in the end does not entertain the way the vot does.

But i moved from the vot because of bass.

Will look at some subs.....even if i like less is more!

Tim

[Altec Best]

If you already have the A7, most likely you already know they don't have "much" below 50Hz.

Yes due to the port being too big.In Movie Theaters that was fine.With a few tweaks you can get the A-7 down near the 30-35 Hz range with a pair of 416's in them.If your running 515's you can still get them lower but not as much.There is a thread at the Altec userboard that Panomaniac started.He made several tweaks to the crossovers & box and got his down a lot lower.For one the port is too big to acheive a lower tuning.His thread is " My A7-500s. A journey " , if you can get the A-7 down near 30-35 Hz no sub will be needed IMHO ! There isn't much music below that (30HZ) anyway except for the occasional pipe organ notes and stuff like that. ;)

Smaller ports and adding length of 3" to those ports a long with XO tweaks will acheive a lower tuning is what he did IIRC.

[Lee in Montreal]

Smaller ports and adding length of 3" to those ports a long with XO tweaks will acheive a lower tuning is what he did IIRC.

;););););););)

This empty pair has removeable front panels, and is for sale locally for $250/pair. I am tempted. I think it is the proper way to make an A7 go lower. Simply tune the BR port to according frequency.

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[hifiapart]

:applaud::applaud::applaud::applaud::applaud::appl aud:

Wow seems as if you are motivated.....at that price go for it if you have the drivers....

[Eaulive]

;););););););)

This empty pair has removeable front panels, and is for sale locally for $250/pair. I am tempted. I think it is the proper way to make an A7 go lower. Simply tune the BR port to according frequency.

50974
50975

You went to see Joseph again?
Nope, not his floor :D

[Lee in Montreal]

You went to see Joseph again?
Nope, not his floor :D

Nop. That set of A7 is in Sherbrooke.

[Wardsweb]

Here is one of my old systems. The A7's are veneered in walnut with solid walnut bases. They are sitting on BassMaxx B1 sub horns fitted with 18" McCauley 6174 drivers. This system could literally vibrate your bones.

51003

[Lee in Montreal]

With all that bass, I am surpised the plants still have leaves on them... :eek:

[reVintage]

The idea is not all bad. Everyone knows the A7 has too big volume and also suffers from shelving as all hornreflexes do when forced to go low. But it is still recommended to keep it as hornreflex, now with correct volume and ports. Take a look at the 816 below that doesn´t play bad at all.

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The system needs to be biamped as the bass driver will have a lot lower sensitivity. The crossoverpoint should also be choosen above the point where shelving sets in.

[JBL 4645]

With all that bass, I am surpised the plants still have leaves on them... :eek:

It’s also a bad idea to put plants above electronics that need watering!

[Altec Best]

Everyone knows the A7 has too big volume


I disagree you can never have enough volume,it is the port that is too big.



Take a look at the 816 below that doesn´t play bad at all.




Agreed, But the 816 won't go below 80-100 Hz so it lacks the deep bass IMO.A couple 816's stacked 2 per side would be better. :bouncy:

[reVintage]

Agreed, But the 816 won't go below 80-100 Hz so it lacks the deep bass IMO.A couple 816's stacked 2 per side would be better. :bouncy:Hey, didn´you read the whole post/thread??

Once again: A smaller box, still hornreflex, on the horn(Yes, it is ment go 80-100Hz) and a biamped sub (BR?) below.

Unfortunately the A7 horn has a very uneven respons so it should also(easy fix;)) be reworked.



I disagree you can never have enough volume,it is the port that is too big.Unfortunately this isn´t true. The box is still to big but the smaller port helps a lot.

About choosing box volume, whether Vb in a horn, BR or closed, there are many good books out there to read.

About the shelving I mentioned before, it takes place at maybe 150-200Hz where the response below this will be 4-6dB lower. EQ?

The optimal volume for 416-8A in an Onken is 220dm3. With a port length of 2cm(3/4") the portarea will be 100cm2.

But 515 is probably more appropiate here.

[theophile]

It’s also a bad idea to put plants above electronics that need watering!

Thus,if your electronics don't need watering,the plants will be fine where they are? ;)

[DjSoundMan]

I'm not shure about a kind of project to add an other speaker in A5/A7 cabinets, first because the magnets are not in the same axe and can cause delay between each drivers. This is only for the reach of more power but bass doesn't work only by adding speakers..

when drivers are not in the same axe and alligned with others, the delay is not good for the quality of reproduction and also can cancel bass frenquencies

--- I have a A7 pair for sale, they are not perfect, comes with JBL drivers (i don't know wich model) but realy clean, they are few littles differences between both but it's sounds realy good and perfect for a project. I don't have horn, only de boxes.. 150$ for the boxes and 300$ with JBL drivers. Montreal Canada ---

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[eso]

I've had my old A5s for over 10 years now and after many early attempts to improve them I realized they are at their best with just a few modifications to tighten up the cabinet.

The components are all early '50s vintage: 515b, 288b, 1005A (Original tar-filled). I found this on the old Altec users board and pretty much followed what is says:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4500648/Audio/smallVOT.pdf.

I did block off the midbass horn flares and sand-filled them: lots of added weight but really clearing up the 100-500Hz range. That volume is not needed for the bass response and the flimsy construction of the horn has always been a source of noise.

Gluing and screwing a bunch of 2X4 and 2x2 bracing to the inside of the cabinets does wonders to tighten up the bass they do produce. Resizing the vent to 100 sq/in and making sure the front panel there is sufficiently stiffened up will give crisp response to 40-45Hz with the 515.

They live in my shop and spend most of their time being fed by my iPod or streams through my iPhone:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4500648/Shop/Flying%20A5s.jpg

While they will never be the last word in inner detail or frequency extension, they are one of the most relaxed and natural sounding systems ever.

eso

[kiirojbl]

Hi,
I made this Remodeling Altec System 11 years ago.
Since then, the system and I have been getting along well.
I recently added Selenium HM17-25 and JBL 2408H to the system.

85191

The Remodeling Altec System is controlled using Behringer DCX2496, DEQ2496 and ECM8000.
The systems are driven by 3 way multi amp system.
I uses AUTO ALIGN function of DCX2496 and AUTO EQ function of DEQ2496 to flatten the frequency response from 25Hz to 20kHz, and the following parametric equalization settings of DEQ2496 are made.

85192

[kiirojbl]

I like classical music, especially orchestras, so I like speakers that can make dynamic expressions in a wide range.
This Remodeling Altec System meets this demand with an 18 inch woofer and ALTEC MR94 Large Format Horn and 291-16K.

The 828B cabinet is divided into upper and lower chambers by a partition plate.
The lower chamber containing the PEAVEY LOMAX 18 inch woofer has a capacity of 8.0 cubic feet/225 L.
The enclosure volume recommended by PEAVEY are 4.0cf a small volume enclosure (44Hz/-3dB), 6.0cf a medium volume enclosure (37Hz/-3dB), 8.0cf a large volume enclosure (31Hz/-3dB).
Therefore, the volume of this lower chamber is ideal for this woofer unit.
The vent dimensions are 4.7inch/12cm x 5.5inch/14cm for the opening and 11inch/28cm for the length.

This Remodeling Altec System succeeded in efficiently storing an 18 inch killer woofer.
And this system with excellent space factor is a very compact system for me.

85193

One of my other systems is Yellow Horn System which driven by 8 way multi amp system.

85194

My other system is DIY Horn System which driven by 7 way multi amp system.

85195

These systems are also controlled using Behringer DCX2496 and DEQ2496.

85196

This Remodeling Altec System is a very small system compared to the Yellow Horn System and the DIY Horn System, but I like it because it sounds great despite being compact.

[Mr. Widget]

Pretty spectacular looking systems! Not sure they would fit in very many homes, but it looks like you’ve made them work.


Widget

[kiirojbl]

Thank you Mr. Widget
The Lansing Heritage site brings me a lot of knowledge and fun.
Thank you very much.

I'm sure my speaker systems are a little big and my wife says so too.
The next day after listening to the orchestra in the concert hall, I don't want to be disappointed when I listen to the same CD on the audio device.
I believe the size of the speaker should be reflected in its height.
I think a height of about 6feet/180cm is desirable.
I expect the Texas Bookshelf is a speaker system built on the same idea.

I don't like the muddiness of the mid-low range sound of the woofer during high-power playback.
Many classical music fans are delighted to hear the muddiness as an expression of the depth of strings section of orchestra, but I don't think so.
After all, I think that the woofer which reproduces the lowest range and a unit which reproduces the mid-low range should be different units.
I totally agree with a 4-way concept that Mr. Greg Timbers pioneered in the 4315 monitor.

The Remodeling Altec System is not intended to add an 18-inch woofer to get the lowest range, but rather to remove the lowest range sound from the ALTEC 3156 woofer.
Therefore, the crossover frequencies of DCX2496 of the system are 90Hz and 500Hz, and the slope types are LR-48dB/oct.

Large speaker systems, such as the yellow horn system, naturally have some disadvantages.
The most serious problem is that 7-way or 8-way mluti amp systems are difficult to organize, that is, it is very difficult to adjust the out put levels of DCX 2496.
However, by using the AUTO ALIGN function of DCX2496 and AUTO EQ function of DEQ2496 to flatten the frequency response, I can easily obtain extremely accurate phase and balance.
Furthermore, sound that lacks musicality due to its flatness can be revived by performing parametric equalization of DEQ2496.

85200

[kiirojbl]

Mr. Don McRitchie and Mr. Steve Schell wrote the following in the right column on page 30 of "The History and Legacy of JBL".

"The mid 1960s saw JBL take one more run at Altec’s stran-glehold on the cinema market, and it resulted in the same resounding lack of success. The Altec Voice of the Theatre (VOTT) was an industry standard because it had become a reference and not because it represented the pinnacle of accuracy—which it did not. Sonic limitations such as the uneven response of its horn/reflex enclosure and restricted high-frequency extension were well-known in the industry."

85201

My impression of VOTT is as follows.
The good news is that VOTT gives a fresh expression when JAZZ is played at high volume, and has a cool appearance, and can talk about history and legend.
And the bad points are everything else.
In particular, compared with a modern speaker system, the low frequency reproduction capability is extremely low, and the high frequency is not worthy of evaluation unless a large format Manta Ray horn is used.

Why did I get VOTT?
It was an offer from my friend, and at that time I responded lightly without thinking too much.
If I don't like it, I just put it in the warehouse.
I knew that I couldn't get very good results using VOTT as it was, so I decided to install a subwoofer.

The lower chamber of the 828 has a volume of 8 cf, so it can hold almost any 18 inch woofer.
Another idea was to use a 15 inch woofer.
Enclose the circumference of the woofer unit like Electro Voice MTL-4, and place the woofer unit in a recessed position.
I thought that there is enough volume of lower chamber even if a recess is provided, and that a bass with a punch might be obtained.



Electro Voice MTL-4
85202

[kiirojbl]

I was at a loss between the 18-inch plan and the 15-inch plan with a recess, but eventually adopted the 18-inch plan.
At that time, 18-inch woofers with "mms" of about 200g began to become popular, so I wanted to try the 18-inch plan.
This prospect was successful and I was able to get a deep and transparent bass.

I am fascinated by the appearance of vintage products, but the sound of these products is many problematic.
I listened to the large multicell horns and sectoral horns of ALTEC, huge horns of Western Electric, and front loaded horns or scoop with 15 inch woofer(s), but I was disappointed.

By understanding the weaknesses of vintage products well, remodeling the weaknesses and using the automatic adjustment capability of digital equipment, you can extend the life of vintage products and deepen your understanding of audio technology.
I often hear stories of people who notice the poor sound of his vintage products and throw away everything.
I recommend you to take some measures before that happens.

http://kiirojbl.blogspot.com/

My Gallery (http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/showgallery.php?sortby=l&sorttime=1&way=asc&thumbsonly=0&perpage=24&page=1&cat=500&ppuser=9222&thumbcheck=0&cat=500)

[Lee in Montreal]

I listened to the large multicell horns and sectoral horns of ALTEC, huge horns of Western Electric, and front loaded horns or scoop with 15 inch woofer(s), but I was disappointed.

Old style equipment is best suited for old style music for which it was designed. Obviously, trying to render bass material under 60Hz (on which modern electronic music is often based) could be useless with home-sized horns. And not everyone can run Berthas w/ Levan horns in their home...

The best blues I ever listened to was on a rotten set of Altec A7. It felt son natural. Perfect fit between music and soeakers. Otherwise, I believe A7s sound garbage on modern music....

[Odd]

http://kiirojbl.blogspot.com/

Impressive collection of photos and data.