Pulling sound from new-fangled digital source into old-school analog hi-fi system

[BMWCCA]

Now that I've reluctantly joined the ranks of HD-TV viewers I'm somewhat stumped by how to get the sound to my old JBLs without having to spend for modern HT front-ends. Truth be told, I'm enjoying the concerts offered on HD-TV but I can't stand TV speakers.

I'm on Comcast using a Toshiba LCD HD TV with no analog outputs. When I connect the hi-fi (into the Soundcraftsmen Pro-Control Four) to the Comcast box's analog audio outs there is a lag between the audio and the video displayed on the TV with the audio being ahead of the video. TV connection is HDMI out of the Scientific Atlanta box. Any suggestion for why or how to correct it?

I realize taking the audio from the TV should work but this model has only digital outs. Would something as simple as this little blob from Parts Express do the job (click the photo link (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=180-997&FTR))? Any other suggestions on the cheap?

50282 (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=180-997&FTR)

[MikeBrewster77]

In regard to the lag, there should be an adjustment on the TV itself to compensate for that. I think on mine it's called lip synch or something stupid like that. Have you tried futzing with that? It might save you from having to introduce anything else into the signal path...

[BMWCCA]

In regard to the lag, there should be an adjustment on the TV itself to compensate for that. I think on mine it's called lip synch or something stupid like that. Have you tried futzing with that? It might save you from having to introduce anything else into the signal path...
Haven't found anything like it yet, but I'll keep looking. Though my sound source is the cable box, not the TV. If I use only the TV speakers, everything is in sync through HDMI output.

Thanks.

[HCSGuy]

The Toslink output on your monitor is only for outputting sound from the monitor's built in digital tuner, in case you still use a roof mounted antenna.

This is common, and is correctable in most of the last 2-3 generations of A/V receivers. Unfortunately, you may find that the delay varies from channel to channel or program to program (I remember two winter olympics' ago being especially bad). It is an interesting phenomenon as we find it very disturbing to hear something before we see it, but often don't don't notice the opposite, which we encounter often.

Unfortunately, fixing this may be as expensive as buying an entry level receiver. We used to spec in the Felston Digital Delays between Sat/Cable Boxes and A/V receiver's digital inputs:
http://www.felston.com/dd340/index.htm

You would have to follow this up with a D/A convertor that is Dolby Digital capable, like this, before going into your preamp:
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=5980

Put the two together, and you've spent $350. Maybe not good A/V receiver range, but not far off...

[HCSGuy]

The other option would be to use one of the old Video advance processors from Anderson & Collins Micro Engineering to speed up the video. Unfortunately, they were component video only, so you might have connectivity problems. The company is now defunct, but I'll keep looking for an weblink. Maybe search Ebay?



tongue firmly thrust in cheek:)

[hjames]

I realize taking the audio from the TV should work but this model has only digital outs. Would something as simple as this little blob from Parts Express do the job (click the photo link (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=180-997&FTR))? Any other suggestions on the cheap?

50282 (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=180-997&FTR)

If you aren't going the route of an AVR, and that's slippery sand anyway, it seems like its hard to go wrong for $35! Pulling audio direct from the TV (which is from the HDMI feed) seems like it would skip all the video delay issues you mentioned ...

[BMWCCA]

Well, looks like I could do the JBL AV2 for only $600 . . .

But the cable box has both optical and coax digital outputs. Would seem those should certainly be carrying the same signal even if the TV isn't. Or is the delay caused by the HDMI?


Edit: But then maybe I could leverage this to rationalize the Musical Fidelity M1 DAC I've been wishing for . . .

[HCSGuy]

Parts Express does not specify whether their D/A convertor is Dolby Digital Compatible, but all the cheap (<$100) D/A's I have seen are PCM only, which won't work, unless his cable box has a way to downconvert Dolby Digital to PCM, which I doubt.

[HCSGuy]

Musical Fidelity M1 is PCM only as well - it will not decode Dolby Digital :(

[hjames]

Now that I've reluctantly joined the ranks of HD-TV viewers I'm somewhat stumped by how to get the sound to my old JBLs without having to spend for modern HT front-ends. Truth be told, I'm enjoying the concerts offered on HD-TV but I can't stand TV speakers.


Are you geared up for multichannel audio in that room anyway, or are you feeding 2 channel audio to the crowns and 4345s

[BMWCCA]

Parts Express does not specify whether their D/A convertor is Dolby Digital Compatible, but all the cheap (<$100) D/A's I have seen are PCM only, which won't work, unless his cable box has a way to downconvert Dolby Digital to PCM, which I doubt.

The Comcast box has a toggle for digital-audio out. Either PCM or Dolby. Not considering anything beyond stereo at this time, in this room. But then I wasn't anticipating an HD TV, either, until the CRT failed me. ;)

Also considering getting a PS3 as a BD player, at my teenage daughter's request. Assuming it has analog audio-out though I believe it requires an optional composite cable to do the deed.


Are you geared up for multichannel audio in that room anyway, or are you feeding 2 channel audio to the crowns and 4345sThis room is so small the two 4345s are all the surround-sound we need!

[HCSGuy]

PCM out - excellent! I think Tivo recorders have the same option. Unfortunately, you still need the audio delay...

[JeffW]

But adding an AVR with analog pre-outs sure makes it easy. Simple. Painless. HDMI source/output switching, codec deciphering, I just run the FL/FR analog outs of a Marantz SR5003 to an input pair on the stereo preamp, set the level on the Marantz to 0dB, and go to town. Run multichannel sound? Use the Marantz remote to control all channels (have to remember the level for FL/FR on the pre) and it does it. Want to listen to TV in stereo only? Use the pre remote and select the input from the AVR.

But I have a DirecTV DVR, Roku HD/S and Oppo Bluray (analog sound outs) on the inputs to the Marantz, and just the FL/FR pair going to the stereo out. The onboard amp on the Marantz handles to surround duties.

I know you wanted to get around an AVR, but the flexibility advantage is just so worth it IMHO.

[HCSGuy]

I checked a few Toshiba manuals and they don't specify if the Toslink out is only for the buit in ATSC tuner or will also output audio from any of the HDMI inputs - if it did, it would certainly be the exception, and I cannot say if it would cure your video delay issue.

[BMWCCA]

But adding an AVR with analog pre-outs sure makes it easy. Simple. Painless. ... I know you wanted to get around an AVR, but the flexibility advantage is just so worth it IMHO.
Yeah, but at the present time it would seem a technology still in its infancy, without fixed standards, and with questionable stability (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27150-AV-Component-Front-ends&p=307700&viewfull=1#post307700)! ;)

[Mannermusic]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?30366-Digital-to-analog-audio-converter-for-HDTV

Get a Sony! Seriously, will the shop take the Toshiba back? The only "problem" I have found with the Sony analog audio is that it has to be controlled by the hi fi preamp, not the TV audio. This whole thing is a real bugger, no easy answers. :crying: Mike

[BMWCCA]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?30366-Digital-to-analog-audio-converter-for-HDTV

Get a Sony! Seriously, will the shop take the Toshiba back? The only "problem" I have found with the Sony analog audio is that it has to be controlled by the hi fi preamp, not the TV audio. This whole thing is a real bugger, no easy answers. :crying: Mike

Thanks for the idea but find me a Sony at least 37" big in 1080p for $399 and we'll talk. I'm paying for two private-college educations as it is with one more to go. (My first year on the new job I was #2 in sales out of seven sales-droids, beating two with over ten-years on the job, and still eared half what I did the year before in my old job.)

The $35 PE box seems like the best solution. I'll go back to Best Buy and ask the resident Comcast representative if he can offer a better solution. Maybe their new Cisco box beats the delay. :dont-know:

The picture is fantastic. We'll just use it as a TV and enjoy sync'd big-sound on DVDs.

[BMWCCA]

Watching Dave Matthews and Timmy Reynolds on HDNet (local boys) and the delay doesn't really bother me since Radio City Music Hall has it's own delay that sort of cancels it out over the big JBLs. Sure beats the TV speakers!

Looks like a Martin and a Taylor dreadnought, and a Neumann KMS-104 microphone—and it sounds like it should, though the stereo. :applaud:

[JeffW]

Yeah, but at the present time it would seem a technology still in its infancy, without fixed standards, and with questionable stability (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27150-AV-Component-Front-ends&p=307700&viewfull=1#post307700)! ;)

Lol, I've never had a single hiccup with any HDMI handshake or compatibility of any sort. Granted, I'm running HDMI 1.3, which ain't the standard for 3D TV, but that's what my TV is and until it blows up, I figure my AVR is fine.

I don't think Heather's problems are HDMI related. That H/K AVR has been nothing but a nightmare from what I've read, while my little old Marantz (that was on clearance as last year's model a couple of years ago) has been nothing but an oustanding $500 purchase.

The technology really isn't in its infancy, there's a shit load of HDMI fed flat screens out there. As for standards, you mean like USB 1.0? Or what's the current standard?

So HDMI 1.4 is the new standard that supports 3D. I'll bet you $5 that within 2 years, HDMI 1.4 has been superseded by 1.5 or something relating to 3D without glasses. Then what? Wait another couple of years so you can get the latest HDMI 1.6 gear?

It's always going to be a moving target. You just have to jump on at some point or get left behind.

And I still have a 3.5" floppy drive in the bottom of my computer case. There was no place to mount it, so I stuck it in an anti-static bag and left it laying in the bottom of the case. There ain't no floppies out there. All my advanced planning was for naught.

[4343]

In regard to the lag, there should be an adjustment on the TV itself to compensate for that. I think on mine it's called lip synch or something stupid like that. Have you tried futzing with that? It might save you from having to introduce anything else into the signal path...

The lag is caused by most flat screen TV's these days. CRT was an "instant" display device, well a line or two is all (< 100 microseconds), while LCD has a huge processing delay before the picture is displayed. So now you need a long audio delay to get 'em back into "Lip Sync", (which is the actual technical term for Audio and Video timing parity, seeing as how "talking heads" are among the most prominent and annoying things on TV).

[hjames]

Lol, I've never had a single hiccup with any HDMI handshake or compatibility of any sort. Granted, I'm running HDMI 1.3, which ain't the standard for 3D TV, but that's what my TV is and until it blows up, I figure my AVR is fine.

I don't think Heather's problems are HDMI related. That H/K AVR has been nothing but a nightmare from what I've read, while my little old Marantz (that was on clearance as last year's model a couple of years ago) has been nothing but an oustanding $500 purchase.

So HDMI 1.4 is the new standard that supports 3D. I'll bet you $5 that within 2 years, HDMI 1.4 has been superseded by 1.5 or something relating to 3D without glasses. Then what? Wait another couple of years so you can get the latest HDMI 1.6 gear?

.

The HK AVR 7300 doesn't do HDMI - so I use an external HDMI switch from Monoprice to route those signals - primarily video for my purposes. My HDMI issues may have been with my old Philips CRT HDTV (it was 1.3 spec) - I did have dropouts and muting when I tried an Emotiva Processor (basically an AVR Preamp) last spring. Haven't had HDMI problems since I shipped the Emotiva back for a full refund last June - but its bugginess is now well documented.
Plus I got a Vizio panel digital set last month and gave away the Philips ...

[BMWCCA]

As a quick follow-up, the little Muse mini-DAC Seawolf recommended ($50 off eBay) is working perfectly to resolve the latency issue with TV sound. I'm running optical-out from the Toshiba into Mini and then into the main system and timing is perfect.

I'm also running a Musical Fidelity V-DAC-I on loan from a customer and I'm enjoying it so much the timing couldn't have been better for the announcement of the arrival of the Emotiva XDA-2 USB DAC on-sale currently for $350:
http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/processors/products/xda2

If anyone can think of a better value in a DAC today, please let me know before I pull the trigger!

[SEAWOLF97]

As a quick follow-up, the little Muse mini-DAC Seawolf recommended ($50 off eBay) is working perfectly to resolve the latency issue with TV sound. I'm running optical-out from the Toshiba into Mini and then into the main system and timing is perfect.

Glad that it worked out ... mine has been a lot of cheap fun

[JuniorJBL]

Any thoughts on that XDA after some use?

[BMWCCA]

I never bought the Emotiva.

They had so many teething problems with the USB software, I was waiting for them to rectify the problems.

Then the intro price got bumped to $399 and I lost interest.

And the Musical Fidelity V-DAC I have on-loan is working just fine and the owner doesn't seem to be in any hurry to have it back.

[hjames]

I never bought the Emotiva.

They had so many teething problems with the USB software, I was waiting for them to rectify the problems.

Then the intro price got bumped to $399 and I lost interest.

And the Musical Fidelity V-DAC I have on-loan is working just fine and the owner doesn't seem to be in any hurry to have it back.

The Emotiva UMC-1 Pre-Processor I got was so bad I'm not likely to check them for much of anything in the future.
On that one it was horrid HDMI handshaking issues, plus some other things.
But they did have a good return policy, thank goodness!

Frankly, there are so many good DACs out there its not worth taking time for bad ones ...

[BMWCCA]

The Emotiva UMC-1 Pre-Processor I got was so bad I'm not likely to check them for much of anything in the future.
On that one it was horrid HDMI handshaking issues, plus some other things.
But they did have a good return policy, thank goodness!

Frankly, there are so many good DACs out there its not worth taking time for bad ones ...

To be fair, the Emotiva XDA-2 has such an amazing feature set at such a great price (list $399) and is gaining excellent critical reviews http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/emotiva-xda-2-usb-dacdigital-preampheadphone-amp that it is still a compelling product I look forward to sampling. Their direct-distribution marketing means they often offer their own sale pricing. At the intro price of $350 including shipping I was tempted until the stories of teething issues began collecting on the manufacturer's own web site (with their comments, to their credit). When the solutions appeared about the same time the discount ended, I decided to wait. I'm still impressed by the plethora of connections the unit provides and the versatility it offers. Looking forward to their next holiday sale.