This guy talks like one of us !

[richluvsound]

Folks,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3_iOHHQvPg

The designer of Funktion one talks simple sense about pro audio !
IMHO

Rich

[1audiohack]

Yeah, I read a white paper or some paper of his a year or so ago and felt compelled to email him about it, he answered back! Seems like a very down to earth guy.

There are still a couple of fish out there with ears that are still willing to swim against the current.

Now to check out your link.

Cheers.

[JBL 4645]

Not sure if this is the (white paper) I’m reading myself.
“REALITY? OR SOFT FOCUS?”
http://www.funktion-one.com/dl/files/1819.pdf

[1audiohack]

Yeah that's the one.

[cooky1257]

Nice one Rich,
I've been a Funktion1/Tony Andrews fan for many years-he talks a ton of sense.
Cooky

[macaroonie]

I have a Scottish accent :)

[richluvsound]

Rubbish, its just an act so you can wear a skirt with no knickers and not get beaten up :D

[Mr. Widget]

The designer of Funktion one talks simple sense about pro audio !
IMHOI think there is a growing trend here...

Robert Margouleff, the Keynote speaker at the AES convention which will be held here in SF next month will be giving a speech entitled, “What The Hell Happened?”

I think that pretty well sums it up.


Widget

[macaroonie]

Looks like a lot of Fane drivers in his gear. I could well be wrong. Fane do custom OEM in any case so no bad thing.

On music of course he is absolutely right , when you consider that you can get 20Gig of storage in a dongle there is no excuse for the music industry any more.
If you are interested do a bit of research into the DBX 700Khz system proposed in 1982 ish.
To roughly quote Barry Fox writing for HFNRR at the time ' it is regrettable that what should be the digital audio format for the forseeable future will be sidelined in favour of commercial expediency'
referring to the Philips / Sony deal that railroaded the CD system onto the market. If my memory serves DBX offerred free lisencing to interested parties !!
AsI have said before this was 82/83 is ie 27 years ago and the format has not changed since in fact if you take MP3 into the equation it has gone backwards. I cannot think of anything in the digital domain that has not progressed in leaps and bounds in the intervening period.
Anyone who has had the experience of being in a recording studio and hearing 30 ips analog will know what is available if the record distribution people elected to grasp the nettle.
Perhaps with internet music publishing starting to flourish the market might just with a bit of luck encourage FLAC or 196 versions.
I would gladly pay full CD price for a full quality download , Good business there for someone. I notice Linn are doing just this.

MY sabbath rant :(

link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dbx_Model_700_Digital_Audio_Processor

[Ruediger]

Many sound engineers use compressors / limiters to "tighten" the sound. The result is LOUD sound without any dynamics.

I do not think that high quality digital audio components can be blamed for bad results.

The good side of my audio gear is that one can tell whether a recording is good or bad.

And the bad side is: one can tell whether a recording is good or bad.

Yes, the better a sound system is the shittier an MP3 will sound.

Ruediger

[macaroonie]

Many sound engineers use compressors / limiters to "tighten" the sound. The result is LOUD sound without any dynamics.

I do not think that high quality digital audio components can be blamed for bad results.

The good side of my audio gear is that one can tell whether a recording is good or bad.

And the bad side is: one can tell whether a recording is good or bad.

Yes, the better a sound system is the shittier an MP3 will sound.

Ruediger

Agreed , but I feel that the fundamental flaw is in the front end sample rate , 44.1 KHz or even 96 is nowhere near high enough. The audible effects of this can most clearly be heard on female vocal if you a/b analogue v digital of the same singer

[richluvsound]

Seems to me the market is driven by the pocket media players .... I'm not an expert in this field ,but I don't need to be to understand the forces at work here ... I can get my entire music collection in my pocket at 128 , I couldn't in a lossless format ...

Ruedigar has the same problem as me , the better my equipment the smaller my music collection becomes .

Perhaps someone can explain to me why TV audio signal sounds bloody amazing compared to my CD player ? What type of signal is it ?

Sometimes I listen to music and kick myself for wasting all that money on shit , get sick of it and turn the TV on, only to find my ears are happy again WTF


uF

[JBL 4645]

Seems to me the market is driven by the pocket media players .... I'm not an expert in this field ,but I don't need to be to understand the forces at work here ... I can get my entire music collection in my pocket at 128 , I couldn't in a lossless format ...

Ruedigar has the same problem as me , the better my equipment the smaller my music collection becomes .

Perhaps someone can explain to me why TV audio signal sounds bloody amazing compared to my CD player ? What type of signal is it ?

Sometimes I listen to music and kick myself for wasting all that money on shit , get sick of it and turn the TV on, only to find my ears are happy again WTF


uF

TV uses compression! Play the same film/DVD when its aired and listen! Its there because TV speakers have limited frequency response often at 100Hz, but the sound mix still extends down to 20Hz or below on some films like “Lord of the Rings return of the King” that was aired around summertime. I didn’t have to play the DVD as I’ve played it many times before. Once a commercial comes on the db level goes up by around +6 or +8db maybe +10db and then you reach for the volume control because they want to shove the add in your face or down your ears!

I’m really fast when it comes to adds as soon as the picture fades to black, I’ve turned it down at least -10db.

Rich, does you're TV have DolbyVolume or SRS MyVolueme is that why it sounds good.:D Do you play the audio output into the amplifier because it will sound even more amazing on the JBL. I don’t use my TV speakers only the JBL gets used 100%.:p

And besides I don’t really watch TV broadcasts its only when the aerial engineer fitted the new aerial, I tested it for one night, but I can’t be asked to watch the mega unbelievable tribe on TV. If friends come over, they can go home and watch Eastenders or the depressing soaps! TV aerial is discounted here!

Only CD/laserdisc/DVD or rarely played bluray is played here! I don’t want to know, what is current in the news. I don’t care for! I don’t even bother listening to ClassicFM on the radio anymore.

[hjames]

TV uses compression! Play the same film/DVD when its aired and listen! Its there because TV speakers have limited frequency response often at 100Hz, but the sound mix still extends down to 20Hz or below on some films like “Lord of the Rings return of the King” that was aired around summertime. I didn’t have to play the DVD as I’ve played it many times before. Once a commercial comes on the db level goes up by around +6 or +8db maybe +10db and then you reach for the volume control because they want to shove the add in your face or down your ears!

I’m really fast when it comes to adds as soon as the picture fades to black, I’ve turned it down at least -10db.

But, of course, you NEVER listen to broadcast TV, so you never have to pay the TV tax, right? Or is that only for the BBC?

[cooky1257]

Rich, 14bit NICAM on bog standard digital.
HD channels have to conform to Dolby digital levels and so doesn't suffer the over saturated/compressed ad break sound issue.

[JBL 4645]

But, of course, you NEVER listen to broadcast TV, so you never have to pay the TV tax, right? Or is that only for the BBC?

That’s one reason! :D And really even if there was no licence fee fixed I still can’t be asked! There isn’t one TV show that I like, (not one!) Least not anymore for me! If I want to watch a TV show there’s youtube or I can buy it on DVD.

[JBL 4645]

Rich, 14bit NICAM on bog standard digital.
HD channels have to conform to Dolby digital levels and so doesn't suffer the over saturated/compressed ad break sound issue.

Near Instantaneous Companded Audio Multiplex.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NICAM

I remember the first of one of many TV shows that was broadcasted in digital stereo NICAM The Word channel4 early 90’s.

Films sounded good in (near digital) NICAM like Dune which had an edge to the sound quality, all the little imperfections of film soundtrack noise off the 35mm print, like crackle or popping and that’s going back to early 90’s and I can still remember, I think it was broadcasted on channel4.

Simcast broadcasts was rare and often broadcasted with The Proms live in stereo fm on radio2. Today it would sound better with DAB http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Audio_Broadcasting pity its only limited to two channel stereo 192kbs no better than two channel mix on DVD.

Criticism
Broadcasters have been criticized[who?] for ‘squeezing in’ more stations per ensemble than recommended, by:
Minimizing the bit-rate, to the lowest level of sound-quality that listeners are willing to tolerate, such as 128 kbit/s for stereo and even 64 kbit/s for mono speech radio.
Having few digital channels broadcasting in stereo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP3
Development
The MP3 lossy audio data compression algorithm takes advantage of a perceptual limitation of human hearing called auditory masking. In 1894, Alfred Marshall Mayer reported that a tone could be rendered inaudible by another tone of lower frequency.[14] In 1959, Richard Ehmer described a complete set of auditory curves regarding this phenomenon.[15] Ernst Terhardt et al. created an algorithm describing auditory masking with high accuracy.[16] This work added to a variety of reports from authors dating back to Fletcher, and to the work that initially determined critical ratios and critical bandwidths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-1_Audio_Layer_I

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-4_Part_14

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitaphone
In the early 1920s, Western Electric researched both sound-on-film and sound-on-disc systems, aided by the purchase of Lee De Forest's Audion amplifier tube in 1913, and the development of the public address system and the condenser microphone in 1915. The company decided to go forward with the disc system as the more familiar technology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM_broadcasting
In the late 1950s, several systems to add stereo to FM radio were considered by the FCC. Included were systems from 14 proponents including Crosley, Halstead, Electrical and Musical Industries, Ltd (EMI), Zenith Electronics Corporation and General Electric.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Disc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasia_(film)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_Digital_Sound

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Digital

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Dynamic_Digital_Sound

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTS_(sound_system)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%A9%C3%A2trophone

[SEAWOLF97]

Once a commercial comes on the db level goes up by around +6 or +8db maybe +10db and then you reach for the volume control because they want to shove the add in your face or down your ears!

U.S. Senate votes to lower volume on TV commercials

http://www.katu.com/news/national/104085319.html

WASHINGTON (AP) — Legislation to turn down the volume on those loud TV commercials that send couch potatoes diving for their remote controls looks like it'll soon become law.

The Senate unanimously passed a bill late Wednesday to require television stations and cable companies to limit the volume of commercials and keep them at the level of the programs they interrupt.

The House has passed similar legislation. Before it can become law, minor differences between the two versions have to be worked out when Congress returns to Washington after the Nov. 2 election.

Ever since television caught on in the 1950s, the Federal Communication Commission has been getting complaints about blaring commercials. But the FCC concluded in 1984 there was no fair way to write regulations controlling the "apparent loudness" of commercials. So it hasn't been regulating them.

Correcting sound levels is more complicated than using the remote control. The television shows and ads come from a variety of sources, from local businesses to syndicators.

Managing the transition between programs and ads without spoiling the artistic intent of the producers poses technical challenges and may require TV broadcasters to purchase new equipment. To address the issue, an industry organization recently produced guidelines on how to process, measure and transmit audio in a uniform way.

[Mr. Widget]

The Senate unanimously passed a bill late Wednesday to require television stations and cable companies to limit the volume of commercials and keep them at the level of the programs they interrupt.

The House has passed similar legislation. Before it can become law, minor differences between the two versions have to be worked out when Congress returns to Washington after the Nov. 2 election.That is disgusting... the bastards can work together on something this frivolous but won't compromise on issues that affect people's lives and livelihoods.

Now in November one bunch of numbskulls will be tossed out and replaced by a different and equally despicable bunch.

Sorry... rant over.

Widget

[JBL 4645]

U.S. Senate votes to lower volume on TV commercials

http://www.katu.com/news/national/104085319.html

WASHINGTON (AP) — Legislation to turn down the volume on those loud TV commercials that send couch potatoes diving for their remote controls looks like it'll soon become law.

The Senate unanimously passed a bill late Wednesday to require television stations and cable companies to limit the volume of commercials and keep them at the level of the programs they interrupt.

The House has passed similar legislation. Before it can become law, minor differences between the two versions have to be worked out when Congress returns to Washington after the Nov. 2 election.

Ever since television caught on in the 1950s, the Federal Communication Commission has been getting complaints about blaring commercials. But the FCC concluded in 1984 there was no fair way to write regulations controlling the "apparent loudness" of commercials. So it hasn't been regulating them.

Correcting sound levels is more complicated than using the remote control. The television shows and ads come from a variety of sources, from local businesses to syndicators.

Managing the transition between programs and ads without spoiling the artistic intent of the producers poses technical challenges and may require TV broadcasters to purchase new equipment. To address the issue, an industry organization recently produced guidelines on how to process, measure and transmit audio in a uniform way.

Tom

Get an SRS MyVolume it will handle the issues.
http://www.srslabs.com/store/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=36

They do two models HDMI and analogue RCA phone I’d get the RCA phone if you use an AVR linked with the TV providing you use separate amps for all the speakers, or use digital box with RCA phone connected to the AVR then just link it in-between the digital TV box and AVR.

[richluvsound]

Ash ,

thanks for all the work dood .... Looks like I have some reading to do .......



Widget ,

Sorry... rant over.

Widget[/QUOTE]



No worries .... Its about your turn to let off some steam ;)

Rich

[JBL 4645]

Ash ,

thanks for all the work dood .... Looks like I have some reading to do .......



Widget ,

Sorry... rant over.

Widget

No worries .... Its about your turn to let off some steam ;)

Rich[/QUOTE]

Rich
I’m sure along with the white paper by (Tony Andrews) there’s a damn sight more of it out there! And if it was paper form, you’d have to climb over it! :D

I was little interested in that theaterphone system wow that’s go back a long time! Wonder how much the call charges where for long distance back then?:D

It’s cheaper to chat online than to use the phone line! ;)

I think in the white paper Andrews mentioned ambisonics. Even the former projectionist mentioned this, to me some 20 years ago.

There’s an interesting little 13 min video on the long scowl down the page bit.
http://www.ambisonic.net/

MP3 compression is also mentioned in the video.:rotfl:

Also one of my grimes with film sound recoding is “rain effects” its never been spot on! (Andrew Mason) mentions the “umbrella” because rain will land there! Also it lands on the surface the ground of pavement and sounds! On grass it would be a bit denser.

Rain does it make sound when falling freely many feet above you! Not really it only sounds when making contact with an object, so the first rain drop will sound on tall building and its many hundreds of feet up, you’ll hear it maybe several seconds later when the heavens open up!

He also mentioned when its “if slightly in front of you it doesn’t sound right” well if it was street it would be all around and depending on the cameras POV angle if its showing an image of the umbrella then there would be a different sound frequency over your head. The rest of it around you will be high pitch tone. It’s a complex sound to get right.

The future is audio wallpaper. And audio carpet! Because if its outer space sound effects will move all over the place LOL even thou its impossible in space! You don’t get any more preposterous than that!

[SEAWOLF97]

That is disgusting... the bastards can work together on something this frivolous but won't compromise on issues that affect people's lives and livelihoods.
Now in November one bunch of numbskulls will be tossed out and replaced by a different and equally despicable bunch.
Sorry... rant over.
Widget



No worries .... Its about your turn to let off some steam ;)
Rich

me too.:eek:

rants ?? despicable bunches ??

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/oct/12/us-bankers-record-pay-bonuses

US bankers set for record pay and bonuses for second year

US bankers are set for record compensation for a second consecutive year, shattering both the illusion of pay-reform and the expectation that bank bonuses would be tempered while the US economy (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/useconomy) remains weak.
With third-quarter figures from JP Morgan expected to begin a bumper profit reporting season tomorrow, a study of more than three dozen banks, hedge funds, money-management and securities firms estimates they will pay $144bn (£90bn) in salary and benefits this year, a 4% increase on 2009.

[JBL 4645]

I was chatting to guy in the US on youtube about audio mediums that was used with VHS Hi-Fi to BetaMax as these audio formats had serious sound issues with “low frequency audio buzzing” as one Dolby UK plainly put, when I inquired about the issue around 1992.

This is where the dynamics go so quiet on the Hi-Fi tape it then produces a buzzing sound though its not high frequency! Its low frequency and its damn annoying in scenes like TIGER! IT’S A TIGER! The scene in Apocalypse Now (1979) where the jungle sounds are soft and quiet. When the performers spoke softly it was also noticeable as slightly higher buzzing.

Anyway I then mentioned while giving a moments thought, wasn’t there another audio medium around late 80’s early 90’s? Then it clicked! D.A.T. Digital Audio Tape so anyway another digital consumer medium from the past! Not sure if D.A.T. had issues like LFAB (low frequency audio buzzing), wow I’m sure glad I brought laserdisc a year later from 1992.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Audio_Tape
:happyh::tree:

[hjames]

No, the really scummy thing about the folks downtown is for all the posturing over the Sept 1th attack, they still haven't voted the bill that would provide decent health care for the first responders of 911. They worked in the midst of all the dust and ash looking for survivors and bodies and such, and now their health is shot to hell - many of them have horrible cancers now.

You would think it would be a no brainer, you would thing both sides would unite, if only for this bill to do so.
But no ... and no news station is talking about this cowardly behaviour of the congress-critters -
the ONLY coverage it got is on a Comedy Channel - John Stewart's Daily Show ...!

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-december-16-2010/9-11-first-responders-react-to-the-senate-filibuster

[richluvsound]

No, the really scummy thing about the folks downtown is for all the posturing over the Sept 1th attack, they still haven't voted the bill that would provide decent health care for the first responders of 911. They worked in the midst of all the dust and ash looking for survivors and bodies and such, and now their health is shot to hell -

You would think it would be a no brainer, you would thing both sides would unite, if only for this bill to do so.
But no ... and no news station is talking about this cowardly behaviour of the congress-critters -
the ONLY coverage it got is on a Comedy Channel - John Stewart's Daily Show ...!

Heather ,

their too busy swapping reach arounds with the scum in my town ..... :D

[John]

Heather ,

their too busy swapping reach arounds with the scum in my town ..... :D

:yes: :smsex: