Some DAC Thoughts

[Titanium Dome]

Widget and others have been open about their embrace of music files in place of hard media in some some cases. I was really pleased to see the use of iPods in their stellar CAAS show. I was disappointed not to win one of the Wadia iPod docks. :(

I'm thinking I have more than enough CD players already, though none are of the $1k and up variety. However, they all have digital outs and can be used as transports.

So maybe buying a really nice DAC is the way to go. That way I can send digital signals from various sources to it and get a better experience all 'round.

Who among you is doing this already, and what's your experience?

With some of my older speakers, I'm not sure there is enough to gain by going this route, but with these K2s, I'm convinced that they will wring every last benefit out of a superior DAC.

[rdgrimes]

Widget and others have been open about their embrace of music files in place of hard media in some some cases. I was really pleased to see the use of iPods in their stellar CAAS show. I was disappointed not to win one of the Wadia iPod docks. :(

I'm thinking I have more than enough CD players already, though none are of the $1k and up variety. However, they all have digital outs and can be used as transports.

So maybe buying a really nice DAC is the way to go. That way I can send digital signals from various sources to it and get a better experience all 'round.

Who among you is doing this already, and what's your experience?

With some of my older speakers, I'm not sure there is enough to gain by going this route, but with these K2s, I'm convinced that they will wring every last benefit out of a superior DAC.
A decent DAC-in-a-box is usually far less expensive than a high-end receiver or processor with high-end DACs. Certainly better than the average receiver/pre-amp. And keep in mind that your Oppo can play many audio files and has excellent DACs in it already. No lossless formats though. But frankly if you're considering any lossy audio formats you need your head examined - again.

[scott fitlin]

Widget and others have been open about their embrace of music files in place of hard media in some some cases. I was really pleased to see the use of iPods in their stellar CAAS show. I was disappointed not to win one of the Wadia iPod docks. :(

I'm thinking I have more than enough CD players already, though none are of the $1k and up variety. However, they all have digital outs and can be used as transports.

So maybe buying a really nice DAC is the way to go. That way I can send digital signals from various sources to it and get a better experience all 'round.

Who among you is doing this already, and what's your experience?

With some of my older speakers, I'm not sure there is enough to gain by going this route, but with these K2s, I'm convinced that they will wring every last benefit out of a superior DAC.A GREAT DAC makes all the difference in the world especially when you have speakers that really let you hear EVERYTHING in your system. Also, a good DAC sounds neither analog, nor digital, the music just sounds like music. And using a good DAC, with your speakers, and good amps, preamps, etc, you'll get FANTASTIC bass, as well as mids, and highs. You'll also get much better depth, and soundstage. Music will sound quite dimensional, like the best analog recordings through a good system can.

I recommend Weiss, the Minerva is great, they have others, too.


www.weiss.ch

:thmbsup:

[Mr. Widget]

If you want the very best DAC it is the Pacific Microsonics Model One or Model Two. These were developed for mastering studios and are the device used to among other things create HDCD CDs. I am kinda pulling your chain though... they only made something like 30 of the units and they are virtually unobtainium... that said, I do have a friend who might be selling one, but they are priced in the "if you have to ask..."

With that in mind there is the Pacific Microsonics spin off from Berkeley Audio Design... it is probably about as good as you will find and they cost about the same as the lesser Weiss... around $5K.

I use the $2150 Bryston... certainly not as good as those $5K plus units, but there isn't all that much daylight between them.

Widget

[richluvsound]

Doug,

bang for buck , I'm with Mr widget on this one - Bryston .... although , I have had the use of this gear http://www.msbtech.com/products/dac4home.php


Dustin , the designer was here at my place a couple of years ago after the Heathrow hifi show . He is a really nice guy and without an ounce of sales BS either . Just loves what he does and does it well in my opinion . They have done a couple of shows with TAD Ref 1 -what better ?

Dustin will help you with any ?'s BTW notice the analog out put also . It really is the best DAC I have heard .

[rusty jefferson]

I like that you're already looking for the next upgrade to your system.

My two cents on DACs is that until you have the base system in place, you could be spinning your wheels, and needlessly spending money.

Starting off your system with a great pair of speakers is the way to go. If money is a consideration for your electronics purchases over the next so many months/years, I think first spending it to upgrade your preamp, then amp, then Dac is the way to go. My feeling is people should spend as much as they can afford on a preamp first. The preamp establishes the sense of spaciousness, the soundstage, and the overall 'flavor' of the system. I would recommend either a tubed, or hybrid tubed preamp. If you can afford a $3-7k preamp, I think you'll get more benefit right now, than spending the same on a DAC right now.

Then, upgrade your amp(s). I'm guessing big solid state monoblocks would be the way to go with these speakers. After that, I believe you'll get the most benefit from an outboard DAC.

I say this because I'm guessing most of the cds in your collection are 16bit 44khz. Many DACs don't play 16 bit cds much or any better than a good quality 24 bit player will. And many DACs upsample 16 bit to 24 bit and actually sound worse. Now don't get me wrong, once you move into 24bit 96+khz cds and downloads, that $3-7k DAC is gonna make a huge difference, but my feeling is, first the preamp, then the amp(s), then the DAC/transport. Don't know if others would agree.

[richluvsound]

Rusty, you make some good points .

the MSB has a very good analog out put and volume control . When using mine I found the greatest improvement from the Mac and iTunes . I also found that bypassing the onboard DAC in my CD by using the toslink and coax made a marked improvement in the sound stage . Dustin at MSB is also able and willing custom design your dac ( within reason ) . You get the features you want this way , your not paying for features you don't need . The MSB is also easy to upgrade .
At the end of the day ,it really is a question of what sounds good to you !

Rich

[jerry_rig]

Having just picked up a Pass Labs XP-20, I have to agree with Rusty. I'm also looking at an outboard DAC and favor the two units mentioned by Widget. Given the evolving state of the art which is heading towards 32-bit or higher processing, I would not spend more than $5K on a box at this time.

[scott fitlin]

And many DACs upsample 16 bit to 24 bit and actually sound worse. Don't know if others would agree.Your the first person, besides myself, that I know of, to acknowledge this. Not to hijack this thread, but I was starting to think I was crazy, as most of the guys I know swear by upsampling. And I have a CD player with a designer option upsampler board, and I say it sounds worse than playing at the original recorded 16 bits.

[Mr. Widget]

My two cents on DACs is that until you have the base system in place, you could be spinning your wheels, and needlessly spending money.I absolutely agree... and I agree about the order of importance as you have laid it out... though I see needing a top flight source as important as a good pre and amp... that source might be analog or digital, but if your source is compromised you are stuck listening to a severe limitation.

As for a good outboard DAC vs. a good player, jitter can be better controlled in an all in one box, which gives the players an advantage, however I simply haven't heard any players that cost $2K that sound as good as the Bryston DAC and an essentially free transport... i.e. pick up any decent CD player with digital outs... most of us have a few extra lying around and if you don't they are available for a song.


Widget

[BMWCCA]

And for the rest of us who are (or aren't):

°Unemployed
°Under-employed
°Battling ridiculous medical expenses
°Putting kids through college
°Lost it all in the stock market
°non-members of the Greek Audio Club

is a $400 unit like the Cambridge Audio DacMagic worth considering as an improvement for use with a CD player or music server?

Is the playing-field changing too fast to waste money on a low-iine product? Is it only worth doing in the range of, say, a Bryston-class/price unit and above? Or do you just get what you pay for, regardless? Is it safe to assume outboard DACs will decrease in price as they gain mainstream acceptance despite the decreasing quality of recordings, or increase as they gain ground with "audiophile" audiences willing to pay $5000 for speaker cables? :dont-know:

[Mr. Widget]

Your the first person, besides myself, that I know of, top acknowledge this. Not to hijack this thread, but I was starting to think I was crazy, as most of the guys I know swear by upsampling. And I have a CD player with a designer option upsampler board, and I say it sounds worse than playing at the original recorded 16 bits.I have come to the same conclusion on my Bryston... I much prefer leaving the upsampling turned off. Unfortunately not all DACs or players allow defeating the upsampling.


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

is a $400 unit like the Cambridge Audio DacMagic worth considering as an improvement for use with a CD player or music server?
:

Funny stuff (Greek Audio Club) and excellent question. Hope someone answers, since in my mind there are a finite number of DACs out there and, at a fundamental level, they all purport to do the same thing.

[rusty jefferson]

I absolutely agree... and I agree about the order of importance as you have laid it out... though I see needing a top flight source as important as a good pre and amp... that source might be analog or digital, but if your source is compromised you are stuck listening to a severe limitation.

As for a good outboard DAC vs. a good player, jitter can be better controlled in an all in one box, which gives the players an advantage, however I simply haven't heard any players that cost $2K that sound as good as the Bryston DAC and an essentially free transport... i.e. pick up any decent CD player with digital outs... most of us have a few extra lying around and if you don't they are available for a song.


Widget

I agree, but want to add again I think TD is ok with a reasonable 24bit player (that doesn't upsample) till he gets the preamp/amp dialed in. Then audition some DACs.


And for the rest of us who are (or aren't):

°Unemployed
°Under-employed
°Battling ridiculous medical expenses
°Putting kids through college
°Lost it all in the stock market
°non-members of the Greek Audio Club

is a $400 unit like the Cambridge Audio DacMagic worth considering as an improvement for use with a CD player or music server?

Is the playing-field changing too fast to waste money on a low-iine product? Is it only worth doing in the range of, say, a Bryston-class/price unit and above? Or do you just get what you pay for, regardless? Is it safe to assume outboard DACs will decrease in price as they gain mainstream acceptance despite the decreasing quality of recordings, or increase as they gain ground with "audiophile" audiences willing to pay $5000 for speaker cables? :dont-know:

My feeling is TD wouldn't hear much improvement with a DAC Magic, but would gain the ability to use his computer as a server. That alone could be worth the $400.

Once everything else is dialed in, I think the price point of the Bryston is the starting point. The ability of the DAC to not upsample if you don't want it to is important.

Apparently, digital design is much harder than analog. By the time you build a DAC that will really make you say WOW, it's so expensive you have to have a great system to hear it.


Your the first person, besides myself, that I know of, top acknowledge this. Not to hijack this thread, but I was starting to think I was crazy, as most of the guys I know swear by upsampling. And I have a CD player with a designer option upsampler board, and I say it sounds worse than playing at the original recorded 16 bits.

You are not alone. Never be afraid to buck the 'trend'. Trust your ears.

[scott fitlin]

I agree, but want to add again I think TD is ok with a reasonable 24bit player (that doesn't upsample) till he gets the preamp/amp dialed in. Then audition some DACs.



My feeling is TD wouldn't hear much improvement with a DAC Magic, but would gain the ability to use his computer as a server. That alone could be worth the $400.

Once everything else is dialed in, I think the price point of the Bryston is the starting point. The ability of the DAC to not upsample if you don't want it to is important.

Apparently, digital design is much harder than analog. By the time you build a DAC that will really make you say WOW, it's so expensive you have to have a great system to hear it.



You are not alone. Never be afraid to buck the 'trend'. Trust your ears.I agree with all your statements!

Rusty, ME be afraid to BUCK trends? Not me, and I have no problem with saying exactly what I mean. I do trust my ears, and that is something I tell many others.

[Mr. Widget]

...since in my mind there are a finite number of DACs out there and, at a fundamental level, they all purport to do the same thing.Well, all preamps and speakers for that matter purport to do the same thing.

My personal take on this is that every device that has an analog output has a built in analog line stage... as we have discussed, the preamp or analog line stage is critical, therefore using an inexpensive device, be it a CD player, a DAC, or any other source, will include an inexpensive analog line stage. Take the Oppo BDP-83 SE. It does sound better than the standard version. The difference is only in the analog section... this change almost doubles it's price and Oppo is not a company that charges a premium for snob appeal. A good analog section is damned expensive. Oppo's special edition is an improvement and is probably the best sounding "CD" player under a grand, but it certainly isn't stratospherically wonderful.


Widget

[BMWCCA]

Once everything else is dialed in, I think the price point of the Bryston is the starting point. The ability of the DAC to not upsample if you don't want it to is important. Thanks. That's important empirical information and a useful experiential opinion for some of us who have yet to take the plunge. My assumption was that, for those who use only CDs as their digital source, a good-quality Burr-Brown player or (at the top of the average heap) the Oppo SE version, would provide nearly everything a DAC could to an above-average system the level of which is constrained by somewhat-normal budgetary considerations. Is that a valid assumption, or would an inexpensive outboard DAC offer a benefit over such average players?


After seeing Widget's reply above, would the benefit of using the digital out of an average CD player into a (let's say Bryston) outboard DAC be both the converters and bypassing the player's cheaper analog line stage? Am I correct in assuming the digital-out from a player bypasses that analog line-stage?

[rusty jefferson]

Thanks. That's important empirical information and a useful experiential opinion for some of us who have yet to take the plunge. My assumption was that, for those who use only CDs as their digital source, a good-quality Burr-Brown player or (at the top of the average heap) the Oppo SE version, would provide nearly everything a DAC could to an above-average system the level of which is constrained by somewhat-normal budgetary considerations. Is that a valid assumption, or would an inexpensive outboard DAC offer a benefit over such average players?


After seeing Widget's reply above, would the benefit of using the digital out of an average CD player into a (let's say Bryston) outboard DAC be both the converters and bypassing the player's cheaper analog line stage? Am I correct in assuing the digital-out from a player bypasses that analog line-stage?

From my experience, I believe you have summed it up very well. If your running an average to slightly above average system, I see (hear) little advantage to the outboard DAC, other than being able to add your PC as a music server. A player as described, will probably sound fine. TD is going to have a way above average system when he's done. He will definitely appreciate an outboard DAC.

Yes the digital s/pdif output on the cd player will bypass the analog section and send the digital signal directly to the DAC for converting to analog.

[BMWCCA]

Yes the digital s/pdif output on the cd player will bypass the analog section and send the digital signal directly to the DAC for converting to analog.Okay. Thanks. My goal now is not a better-quality CD player (Oppo) but, instead, a Bryston outboard DAC. I'm happy with my amps, speakers, and electronic but I've always suspected the digital source (CD). Let's see what kind of a year-end bonus I can build up. :D

[rdgrimes]

Funny stuff (Greek Audio Club) and excellent question. Hope someone answers, since in my mind there are a finite number of DACs out there and, at a fundamental level, they all purport to do the same thing.
Don't fall for all the rhetoric regarding the chips used. It's not the name on the chip, it's the care and art in the building of the analog board that makes or breaks a DAC. And even there you'll find a surplus of snake oil.

[rusty jefferson]

Okay. Thanks. My goal now is not a better-quality CD player (Oppo) but, instead, a Bryston outboard DAC. I'm happy with my amps, speakers, and electronic but I've always suspected the digital source (CD). Let's see what kind of a year-end bonus I can build up. :D

Absolutely, if all your other gear is first rate, it will be sweet. If on the other hand, you spend $2k or more on a DAC, and the difference isn't immediate and substantial, you will be disappointed. Perhaps you know someone who will let you audition one before buying.

I don't know my way around the tools available to me here, but re-reading Widgets post #32 in this thread is very informative. http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29219-250Ti-s-in-Tampa&highlight=250tis+tampa

First preamp, then amp, then DAC. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

Please keep us updated how the DAC works out.

[richluvsound]

Thanks Mr Grimes ,

this was the point I was trying to make in regards to the MSB products . They are expensive , because they are hand built . The actual dac module itself is not mass produced by Phillips, Burr Brown, ESS or any other OFF SHORE conglomerate . For years the product was as ugly as &^%( . The money went into the R & D not aesthetics and hype. It still has a way to go in terms of looks ,but whats under to hood still deserves consideration as opposed to indifference.
I have no gain here , no shares ,no party ,or supplier to favor ,but I do have an educated ear. This is a small US company that makes a fine product .... Then again, maybe its the messenger and not the message thats the recipient of bad manners ! I

Rich

[Mr. Widget]

And for the rest of us who are (or aren't):

°Unemployed
°Under-employed
°Battling ridiculous medical expenses
°Putting kids through college
°Lost it all in the stock market
°non-members of the Greek Audio Club

is a $400 unit like the Cambridge Audio DacMagic worth considering as an improvement for use with a CD player or music server? For a smaller secondary system or a system on a tight budget, I would absolutely recommend the Peachtree Audio iDecco. It is an integrated amp with a tube line stage and a built in DAC... it is similar to the Wadia doc in that it pulls the digital stream directly from your iPod.

I don't recommend it because of it stats or pedigree... I have heard it, and it is shockingly good.


Widget

[cooky1257]

The key is to try and hear as many as you can.
Lots of people enjoy good results with the Benchmark HDR Dac1, myself included, on the end of a Teac T1 transport and Squeezebox. Prism Sound also make excellent uber DAC's though you'd still need a volume control.
Cooky

[Titanium Dome]

Well, maybe the money I'm not going to spend on a sub will get me to a DAC faster. ;)

Of course the SDP-5 has 24-Bit/192kHz DACs on all channels, but I'm not sure whose they are. Plus, I'm sure there's been progress since 2007 when this rolled off the line. Still, in a pinch, it's a better set of DACs than most/all of my CD/DVD players.

[scott fitlin]

Okay. Thanks. My goal now is not a better-quality CD player (Oppo) but, instead, a Bryston outboard DAC. I'm happy with my amps, speakers, and electronic but I've always suspected the digital source (CD). Let's see what kind of a year-end bonus I can build up. :DI own a good amount of Bryston amps, and a couple of 10B active crossovers. I'll tell you this about their products, Bryston designs and manufactures solid products. They are very well constructed, EXTREMELY reliable, and sound quality is excellent, and extremely clean. Bryston amps, and products have an amazing 20 year warranty, and from what I see on ebay, Bryston products hold their value when it comes to resale, too. Just in case you buy something, and down the road decide to sell it, for whatever reason, Bryston gear holds it's value pretty good. Bryston is not inexpensive, but it also, IMHO is not overpriced, either. When you buy Bryston, you get well engineered products, sturdy chassis, and carefully chosen parts, but not BOUTIQUE CHIC parts, or gaudy cosmetic packages. I can honestly say, that of the Bryston gear I have, the gear performs exactly as Bryston claims. And to my ears, Bryston electronics and amplifiers are VERY RESOLVING of the most minute details in your recordings, and their gear is SUPER, SUPER CLEAN. As well, Bryston gear is among the most reliable, and even though is considered of the highest quality in audio standards it also is built to WORKHORSE standards. Bryston doesn't break! BUT if it does, or you need something, like custom features to suit a particular need or application, Bryston has OUTSTANDING technical support, and service, and they will go out of their way to accommodate you.

Bryston gear, although not inexpensive, always manages to make gear that can and does better fancier boutique products, that cost MUCH more.

Then, and this is just a pet peeve of mine, should you ever need to phone Bryston, an actual person answers the phone! Bryston has a receptionist, that will direct your call to whoever you need to speak with. This, in our world of today, and total automation, and when I call major American companies, you get the automated phone menu system!

Lastly, and again, IF you purchase anything Bryston, and for whatever reason, at some point, decide you want to sell it, Bryston gear holds it's resale value!

Bryston is a wise choice.

[jblnut]

I'll toss an idea out here that I actually use myself...

Once upon a time (and perhaps still in limited use), the DAT came along and just about put the cassette in the coffin for good (at least for recording). You can find any number of great Sony and Teac/Tascam DAT units with busted transports but still excellent AD/DA units for very short money.

My Sony PCM-R300 has a DAC that is almost indistinguishable from the excellent sound of my Harman HD7725 (the last really good CD player from HK). It's noticeably better than the earlier DTC-700 that I no longer have, so you will want to do your homework and get a better DAT unit to take advantage of better internal components. I run the digital out from my computer into this unit in my office and listen to it every day.

It won't do anything fancy like 24/96, but it may just surprise you and noticeably out-perform your current CD, DVD or computer's analog section.

jblnut

[BMWCCA]

Bryston . . . designs and manufactures solid products. They are very well constructed, EXTREMELY reliable, and sound quality is excellent, and extremely clean . . . When you buy Bryston, you get well engineered products, sturdy chassis, and carefully chosen parts, but not BOUTIQUE CHIC parts, or gaudy cosmetic packages. . . Bryston gear is among the most reliable, and even though is considered of the highest quality in audio standards it also is built to WORKHORSE standards. Bryston doesn't break! BUT if it does, or you need something, like custom features to suit a particular need or application, Bryston has OUTSTANDING technical support, and service, and they will go out of their way to accommodate you.

Sounds like the Canadian version of what Crown used to be! :thmbsup:

[Mr. Widget]

Well, maybe the money I'm not going to spend on a sub will get me to a DAC faster. ;)

Of course the SDP-5 has 24-Bit/192kHz DACs on all channels, but I'm not sure whose they are. Plus, I'm sure there's been progress since 2007 when this rolled off the line. Still, in a pinch, it's a better set of DACs than most/all of my CD/DVD players.Borrow Grumpy's Proceed and use your Oppo BDP-83 SE... that will be your best bet short of getting a really good (multi thousand dollar) CD player or a good outboard DAC. That Lexicon processor is excellent for movies, but the analog section is simply not going to be as good as any of the better all analog gear of a few years back... or the good stuff of today for that matter.


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

Borrow Grumpy's Proceed and use your Oppo BDP-83 SE... that will be your best bet short of getting a really good (multi thousand dollar) CD player or a good outboard DAC. That Lexicon processor is excellent for movies, but the analog section is simply not going to be as good as any of the better all analog gear of a few years back... or the good stuff of today for that matter.


Widget

I recommend reading recent 6moons reviews of dacs and CD players.

[scott fitlin]

Sounds like the Canadian version of what Crown used to be! :thmbsup:EXACTLY! :bouncy:

[Titanium Dome]

Borrow Grumpy's Proceed and use your Oppo BDP-83 SE... that will be your best bet short of getting a really good (multi thousand dollar) CD player or a good outboard DAC. That Lexicon processor is excellent for movies, but the analog section is simply not going to be as good as any of the better all analog gear of a few years back... or the good stuff of today for that matter.


Widget

I would agree with that in general. Does anyone know how the Jim Fosgate-tweaked Citation 7.0 or 5.0 (which I have) compares with the stable mate Proceed gear?

A question especially for you, Widget, is how you would integrate a sub with these K2s? A regular two-channel pre is not going to do that, unless you use speaker-level inputs on a sub that also passes the signal back out to the K2s. I don't like that route.

I believe the Fosgate Audionics FAP T1+ actually has analog bass management built in, which allows analog 2.1 output. I'm not sure if the Citations or Proceeds can do this. I think Outlaw of all companies had something called the ICBM that did such a trick all analog. Are there other such beasts?

[Titanium Dome]

I recommend reading recent 6moons reviews of dacs and CD players.

Will do. I've checked it out in the past, but not with regard to DACs.

[Mr. Widget]

A question especially for you, Widget, is how you would integrate a sub with these K2s? A regular two-channel pre is not going to do that, unless you use speaker-level inputs on a sub that also passes the signal back out to the K2s. I don't like that route.Most of the two channel preamps I have used have had two sets of outputs...


I recommend reading recent 6moons reviews of dacs and CD players.I'd be curious about what they have said. Do you have a link? Navigating their site is painful.


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

Most of the two channel preamps I have used have had two sets of outputs...

I'd be curious about what they have said. Do you have a link? Navigating their site is painful.


Widget

So you would sum the L and R channels (of the second pair of outputs) and let the sub's crossover do the work?

[grumpy]

Frankly with most gear, for me it comes down to usability, sound, looks, and price...
sort of in that order.

Other than price, and in general, what is available currently (new or used)... no one can
tell me much about how I would use the unit, how it sounds to me, or what my aesthetic
requirements are.

So, ... do I read reviews (now and then) such as have been referred to here? Sure.
Do I weight their opinions very heavily? Almost never.

Sometimes the operability comments are helpful, sometimes (less often) the
system compatibility comments.

<minor rant on>

BTW, having designed and built discrete DACs some 15 years ago (having reviewed the
best of what was commercially available at the time and finding them incapable of meeting
the requirements I was given) that were measured to have an effective 29-bit resolution at
100KHz (noting that current "24-bit" addressable DACs often measure out closer to
19-20 bits of usable output resolution), I can say with some confidence that the notion of
trying to determine whether the "real work" or "magic" is in the DAC or the analog section
is nonsense. At the point the data reaches the actual DAC, it is all analog and all circuit
portions have to do their job properly or someone's hard work has been wasted, whether
in chip design, DSP algorithm, analog filtering, I/V conversion, power supply design, board
layout, thermal packaging, clock stability and distribution, transport or stream speed sync
& buffering,... whatever.

<minor rant off>

FWIW, Proceed PRE has both single-ended RCA and balanced outputs.

In all of this I'm not saying the Proceed can compete with new multi-K$
preamps, it's just available and not junk.

Question of L+R and using sub crossover has a less definite answer...
you don't want to mess up the signal going to the K2s by putting it through
a less-than-pristine crossover, yet the slopes of the unassisted K2 rolloff and
sub crossover are unlikely to be an optimum match. Still, your proposed trial
config is simple enough to try, and very unlikely to mess with the K2 upper
registers.

[Mr. Widget]

Hi Grump... I agree pretty much 100% with your post above and even the method and hierarchy of picking new gear for chez moi...



Question of L+R and using sub crossover has a less definite answer...
you don't want to mess up the signal going to the K2s by putting it through
a less-than-pristine crossover, yet the slopes of the unassisted K2 rolloff and
sub crossover are unlikely to be an optimum match. Still, your proposed trial
config is simple enough to try, and very unlikely to mess with the K2 upper
registers.Again, I agree... since the K2s have a fairly high and predicable roll off I think the built in crossover for many subs should be able to blend fairly well, but it certainly will be trial and error.

Regarding the summing... in the old days all records were summed mono below 50Hz anyway so it didn't matter... just add 3 dB and use the left channel... these days that isn't always the case. A simple summing circuit could be employed or you could wing it and use one channel and be "right" 99% of the time. Alternatively you could use an external active crossover that sums. I have used the old Dahlquist DQ-LP1 for this purpose and it works quite well. It has a built in "equalizer" that allows alignment jamming and can be just what is needed to get a good blend. Basically, there will most certainly be some trial and error required.

If I had these speakers as my primary system, I would use a sub and I would most certainly not put anything in the signal path front of the K2s.


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

So Grumpy, ready to get into the custom DAC building business? I know somebody who might buy you the parts for your test mule. ;)

[grumpy]

Ha ha... no.
Levinson gear would be "cheaper", and that SACD player
sounded pretty darn good, as it was :)

[Ducatista47]

I hope everyone remembers that next to how well the recording, mastering and (any other) processing of the real source - the performance - is done ...

...this is all how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Next to source material and amplification, DACs are like wire. Their actual contribution is minuscule, relatively. Unless they are complete rubbish. I belong to a huge audio site where most obsess about DACs and balanced architecture. They are usually kids who listen to music recorded like crap and have lousy amplification that their peers told them is great. But they have threads like "I have only $10,000 to spend on a DAC."

How about a Lavry? 99% of the way there for a grand.

Just be careful what you wish for. With most available recordings, to quote (probably misquote) Jack Nicholson, "You can't handle the truth." I have worked long and hard to find systems that are incredibly accurate but pretty forgiving. I consider the designers who I ended up choosing geniuses, and that is what is required to pull that combination off.

Clark

[grumpy]

I have worked long and hard to find systems that are incredibly accurate but pretty forgiving.

A challenging and admirable goal, indeed.

[richluvsound]

Hi Doug,


it also mentions the MSB which builds its own chips .....
/www.techradar.com/reviews/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/cd-players-and-recorders/moon-750d-673709/review

Rich

[Titanium Dome]

So Cooky mentioned the Benchmark. A lot of guys over at AVS are big on the Benchmark stuff.

Who has experience with the current Benchmark DAC1 USB, DAC1 Pre, or DAC1 HDR?

[cooky1257]

Doug,
This review para sums up the BM sound better than I can-it's the bog standard Dac1 but to my ears there was no audible difference when auditioning the HR version;
"What it achieves is tremendous resolution in a very candid, unflinching way. If you're looking for warmth, romance and seduction, keep looking. Likewise for the far more subtle modes of enhancements and flair that the best of tube-powered DACs can provide, possibly due to 1/f noise effects as one digital designer recently suggested to me. Ditto again for DACs whose designers had more money to spend on truly substantial power supplies. Even if nothing else were changed, this nearly always adds body and hence warmth. The Benchmark DAC's calling card is crystalline clarity and a 'forward' shift into the transient field of each tone. This makes for an incisive, slightly edgy demeanor, edgy here not as though leading by the treble but by emphasizing leading edges over the subsequent bloom. The question simply comes down to your system's core temperature. Ice water on a winter day will drop your temperature like a rock while, on a high-desert summer day, it's the best and cheapest feel-good medicine extant. This DAC tells it as it is in a very factual and precise manner. Even if I hadn't seen the measurements by now, I'd not be surprised to find them stellar. It sounds that way. Whether you find that refreshingly uncomplicated and admirable or a bit bland and sterile depends on how you view these things."
I'm using nice cuddly alnico 2235's that are slightly warm in low mids and the BM never offends.
Cooky

[Mr. Widget]

I am not personally familiar with these units, but if we are looking at professional reviews, and keeping Buddha's sage advice in mind, from Stereophile comes: "At $850, the Benchmark DAC 1 is, in my experience, the lowest-priced piece of digital gear that can give sonic performance that is not just improved mid-fi, but genuinely high-end (footnote 2). There are less-expensive CD-playing solutions, but I think that the Benchmark (and anything else with similar performance) is at the watershed point..."


Widget