Scoopers

[Dr.db]

Hi,

I´m thinking again of building some scoops for small privat party applications...
Either way I`d build four JBL-4530 or two JBL-4520....
So each side will be a Top and two Sub-chassis..

Which driver`s are best suited for this enclosure ?

I was thinking of JBL E-140 , E-145 , E-155 , 2240h


Any suggestions?

Tops will be two JBL E-110 in about 1,5cubic feet each side plus 2470 and 2402....


Thanks a lot,
Olaf

[jcrobso]

Hi,

I´m thinking again of building some scoops for small privat party applications...
Either way I`d build four JBL-4530 or two JBL-4520....
So each side will be a Top and two Sub-chassis..

Which driver`s are best suited for this enclosure ?

I was thinking of JBL E-140 , E-145 , E-155 , 2240h


Any suggestions?

Tops will be two JBL E-110 in about 1,5cubic feet each side plus 2470 and 2402....


Thanks a lot,
Olaf
The 4520 is a BIGGER bass horn, but is also heaver and harder to more than the 4530 is.
Any JBL bass driver will work, D,K,E 140s 2225, 2226, 2205. 2220, etc.
I used 2226s in a pair of 4520 and result was very good, very good indeed

[subwoof]

the single is 7ft long, the double is 13ft and couples a little better in a room due to the larger mouth area. It will fit through doors if you make the depth 29.5 and put lots of handles on it esp the top so you can tip it back onto a cart.

The best speaker would be the 2227H but they are pretty hard to find otherwise use the 2226 and you will be quite happy with the performance.

The newer Nd frames have a mag structure that is too deep for the scoops...:(

sub

[louped garouv]

i've heard that TAD woofers are too deep for a JBL scoop also, but that folks have done "somewhat minor" re-design work to get them to fit, and perform well...

(what exactly that means, i have no idea, but in the pics i've seen of some single scoop clones... they look quite a bit taller/deeper than the actual bon-a-fide JBL design)

[Dr.db]

Hi volks,


thanks a lot for your respond on this thread, I appreciate this.

Could you please tell me how the following drivers will compare in the 4520:
2226h, E-140 , E-145 , E-155 , 2240h

Because these are the driver`s I can definetly buy.....

In case of the E-155 or 2240h I would simply build the 4520 larger until they fit.




the single is 7ft long, the double is 13ft and couples a little better in a room due to the larger mouth area.

One 4520 hasn`t got a larger mouth area than two 4530.... Or did I get you wrong....!?

[jcrobso]

Hi volks,


thanks a lot for your respond on this thread, I appreciate this.

Could you please tell me how the following drivers will compare in the 4520:
2226h, E-140 , E-145 , E-155 , 2240h

Because these are the driver`s I can definetly buy.....

In case of the E-155 or 2240h I would simply build the 4520 larger until they fit.





One 4520 hasn`t got a larger mouth area than two 4530.... Or did I get you wrong....!?

The 2226 I used were excellent, they are current production drivers, will handle much more power than the vintage E series which are about 25~30 years old now.
I could shake the room at 32hz with the ones that used!:applaud:
If you can get 2226 then do so. I saw my first 4520s over 45 years ago, don't know what drivers were in them, probably 2205 at the time. Any of the speakers we have listed will work it's the horn that does the job.;)

[Eaulive]

One 4520 hasn`t got a larger mouth area than two 4530.... Or did I get you wrong....!?

The mouth is higher in a 4520 but narrower than two 4530, however the horn is longer than the 4530.
Mouth on the 4520 is 705 x 832mm while the 4530 is 565 x 565mm

[scott fitlin]

In case of the E-155 or 2240h I would simply build the 4520 larger until they fit.Hi Dr., this is exactly what we did in my place back in 1977. Being that I have a Bumper Car ride, and we just didn't have the space to fit in the really huge folded horns of the day we did like, and we did NOT like the smaller folded horns we could fit in, we had upsized copies of the double JBL scoop cabinets built to house dual 18in woofers.

Originally, we used the JBL E-155, and for the time, it was a killer sounding combination, the bass was just so quick and articulate sounding with the the kick so centered on the strike of the bass drums skin. In the early 80,s, we then began using the 2240H in the scoops, again killer sounding combo. To this day, I still have these cabinets in my corner stacks, and still use the JBL 2240H, and it just works. They are powered by Crown Macro Techs, and I love them still, they do something that sounds so right. Punchy sounding bass, with a very nice oomphy low end, still rocks the house.

[Aaron]

Bill Fitzmaurice designs some pretty amazing bass horns that might be worth a look.

http://billfitzmaurice.info/

[Dr.db]

Ahh ok,

you`re right, the mouth of one 4520 is allready bigger than two 4530.... I didnt thought so, but you named it!



E-155 and later 2240h in the scoops; I`m glad to talk to somebody who actually realized this ideas!! :)
Sound like they allways pleased you with nice JBL-Sound and the idea really did work in reality as well, awesome!!

How much amp-power would you consider to be appropriate for each 2240h ?




Thanks for the link, Ill check back on it tomorrow with time!


Best wishes,
Olaf

[jcrobso]

http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-4520-SPEAKERS-JBL-2440-DRIVERS-and-2405-TWEETERS-/270573292772?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item3eff6ccce4

Here is an unusual pair of 4520 scoops.

[djnagle]

I understand that the scoop was designed for the 2225. That is what I am running in my scoops.

[scott fitlin]

Ahh ok,

you`re right, the mouth of one 4520 is allready bigger than two 4530.... I didnt thought so, but you named it!



E-155 and later 2240h in the scoops; I`m glad to talk to somebody who actually realized this ideas!! :)
Sound like they allways pleased you with nice JBL-Sound and the idea really did work in reality as well, awesome!!

How much amp-power would you consider to be appropriate for each 2240h ?




Thanks for the link, Ill check back on it tomorrow with time!


Best wishes,
OlafDr. YES The 2240,s sound great in this type of cabinet.

I find that with the 2240, I get great results with anywhere from around 225 watts PER woofer to 600 watts PER woofer.

I have gotten phenomenal results with an 800 watt per channel Crown Macro Tech 2400 driving two double 18in JBL 2240H loaded upsized scoops.

Now, here is a tidbit of info I have picked up down through the years. I have tried several different woofers in my scoops, and drivers that are suitable for this type of loading, other brands, as well as within the JBL family! For me, NOTHING BUT JBL does it for me in these cabinets. Other JBL drivers sound OK, but I have a preference for the 2240H, but, I never was satisfied with other brands of drivers, even though the models I used were suitable for these cabinets.


!JBL

[jcrobso]

I understand that the scoop was designed for the 2225. That is what I am running in my scoops.
I saw/heard scoops for the first time in 1966, long before the 2225 was made, my guess is that they had 2205s in them. JBL just changed the recommended driver as new models were made.

[Sam Cogley]

The C43 theatre scoop cabinet (and the home versions) were originally designed in the 50s for the D130.

[jcrobso]

The C43 theatre scoop cabinet (and the home versions) were originally designed in the 50s for the D130.
http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/plans/c34/page2.jpg
The 4520 was developed in the early 1960s as JBL started to move into Pro sound.

[Eaulive]

http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-4520-SPEAKERS-JBL-2440-DRIVERS-and-2405-TWEETERS-/270573292772?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item3eff6ccce4

Here is an unusual pair of 4520 scoops.

Something looks wrong with those, like if they were smaller, or maybe it's the picture.

[Eaulive]

Ahh ok,

you`re right, the mouth of one 4520 is allready bigger than two 4530.... I didnt thought so, but you named it!

Best wishes,
Olaf
Actually no, that's not what I said. I said the mouth of the 4520 is higher but narrower than two 4530.
The mouth of the 4520 is 5650 cm² while the 4530 is 3078 cm², so theorically two 4530 have a bigger mouth but... How this translate into sound I can't tell, the horn is longer on the 4520 and it's one horn and one mouth, not two 4530 side by side so maybe it's better... I couldn't say. :dont-know:

[Dr.db]

I guess a side by side test would be the solution to this answer :)

[jcrobso]

I guess a side by side test would be the solution to this answer :)
Unless someone want to build a 4520 & 2 4530s.:crying:

[djnagle]

I took my scoops out of my system. The upper midbass did not sound that good so a friend and I broke out the measuring stuff and between 50 and 160hz they were rather ragged. Many peaks and dips. Then we stuffed pillows up into the scoop and it smoothed it out rather well but the 80hz midbass was gone. I think there is interference between the back loaded horn and the face of the woof. They are cool looking though and have very large bass, just not as clean as I'd like for near field listening. Cheers.

[scott fitlin]

I took my scoops out of my system. The upper midbass did not sound that good so a friend and I broke out the measuring stuff and between 50 and 160hz they were rather ragged. Many peaks and dips. Then we stuffed pillows up into the scoop and it smoothed it out rather well but the 80hz midbass was gone. I think there is interference between the back loaded horn and the face of the woof. They are cool looking though and have very large bass, just not as clean as I'd like for near field listening. Cheers.One question, HOW did you have your scoops set up? STANDING upright, or laying on its side? If you have the scoops on it's side, YES there are phase problems. However, standing upright ameliorates the phase cancellation, and these cabinets can sound very good, and clean, depending on the driver and amp used, etc! I use my double 18in 2240H loaded scoops upright. I know it is NOT what we would call an ACCURATE sound, BUT man, they sound great. I have down through the years, listened to other engineers and tried to use PROPER subwoofer cabinets, to no avail. I just LIKE what the scoops do, PUNCHY KICK, and low end growl.

Of course, scoops are considered "entertainment system" cabinets, and MY system IS an entertainment system.

[djnagle]

Hi Scott, They are standing upright. I have 2225 woofs and drive them with a 50wpc Adcom SS amp. I now have the JBL Altec A7 looking front loaded horn cabs (can't remember the number) and they kick like mules compared to the scoops.


http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a60/djnagle/speakers/IMG_3840.jpg

[scott fitlin]

Altec VOTT horns do kick, I use them also. I use 815A,s and 817A,s on top of my 2240 loaded scoops. The projectivity of front horn loading is outstanding.

Nagle, have you ever tried using your VOTT horns as midbass component, and your scoops as the subwoofer component? EVEN though the scoop is NOT a true sub, it works and has a sound all it's own! :D

[robertbartsch]

Scotti:
Have you ever posted pics of your business? I would love to see the system. I live in Westchester NY.

[scott fitlin]

Scotti:
Have you ever posted pics of your business? I would love to see the system. I live in Westchester NY.AFTER THE 4TH OF JULY, I will post pics. Right now I am doing a brand new lightshow on the center island of the bumper cars, and sound upgrades too!

I want to wait till after I have completed the lighting displays to post more pics. THIS new lighting display is going to be KILLER! 4 moving yoke beams, 4 UFO wheels on moving yokes, 16 LED color bars, and 16 LED color tubes, LED rotating beacons, and the LED technology we have now is BRIGHT! Matter of fact, I bought four moving yoke beam fixtures, and originally I wanted units that use either the 250 watt MSD lamp, OR the new Phillips 5R lamp, and instead I got fixtures that use a sixty watt hi intensity LED. The 60 watt LED has the same output as the 250 watt MSD discharge lamp, BUT none of the heat, and a life expectancy of 50,000 hours as compared to 3000 hours on the 250 watt MSD lamp. Color temp is 5600K, So it is BRIGHT and white light and has clarity and makes good colors with rich saturation. Mostly, though, the new technology we have available now WORKS!

Sound system is getting NEW TAD 1601b fifteens, replaces the TAD 1603,s! I have four of them in already, they sound simply amazing. And it's the same cone and VC as the 1603, but an alnico magnet, vs a ferrite magnet. THERE REALLY IS A BIG DIFFERENCE SONICALLY! The 1601b is SO CLEAN! And the presence, WOW, I hear every little detail, notes have attack and decay, and the low end is so defined and utterly clean, these are pure joy to listen to!

So, after the upgrades are completed, I will take and post pics, and thanks for asking.

:D

[paragon]

I used the 2205A and the K145 in the 4530. There is no difference in the low bass response off the horn.
In 1978i used a very cheap high Qts Becker 915 A 17 (?) and there was more low and mid bass response than the low Qts JBL 2205A i think.
4530 standing in the corner you will get response down to 50-40 Hz. 4520 will go 10 Hz lower.