Westlake style horn drawings?

[EvilFuzz]

Hi people!
I spend 2 evenings in search this drawings, but can't find something concrete, except pictures of Mr. Widget's very beautiful work.
Can anyone help me with my search?
And is Westlake horns have many difference as compared with original 2397?

Thank you in advance and sorry for my English,
best regards,
Kirill aka EvilFuzz
Sun Flower Sound rec. studio, Russia

[yggdrasil]

AFAIK they are close enough to identical except from the obvious differnce in the mouth.

There are several threads with the 2397 and other smith horns:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5454
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14125&highlight=2397
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5951&highlight=2397
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=21202&highlight=smith+horn
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9844&highlight=smith+horn

[EvilFuzz]

AFAIK they are close enough to identical except from the obvious differnce in the mouth.
Yggdrasil, thank you so much!
I read this links and understand about identically of vanes and other, but I can't find Westlake type lips profile nowhere... :(

Regards,
Kirill

[yggdrasil]

Try a 45 degrees profile.

[Mr. Widget]

Try a 45 degrees profile.As I recall it was close to 45°, but not exactly. I have seen a number of people wing it and they all seem happy with their results.


Yggdrasil, thank you so much!
I read this links and understand about identically of vanes and other, but I can't find Westlake type lips profile nowhere... :(For years I was hesitant to post my CAD drawings of the actual Westlake profile as I thought I might make a few more... but as time goes on, I know I am not. :) I have kept one pair for my own collection and that is enough.

Give me a day or two and I'll convert my CAD drawings to pdfs and post them here.


Widget

[EvilFuzz]

Thanks, Mr. Widget! It will be invaluable help for me... Many thanks!!

Regards,
Kirill

[Mr. Widget]

Here you go. I hope these jpegs do the job... that older CAD software doesn't export conveniently to pdfs.

This first drawing shows the differences between the JBL 2397 horn and the early Westlake variant. I have never measured the later Westlake horn that has an inner height dimension of a little over 2". Also I do not know if Westlake made their horn different from the JBL for some sonic reasons, a practical manufacturing reason, or that they simply were sloppily hand built and the particular horn I measured was slightly different from the JBL.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

Top and Section views of the Westlake horn.

[Mr. Widget]

I was able to convert the file using an intermediate translator...


Widget

[KCCT82]

Oh my... I have always wanted these but reluctant to ask... THANK YOU Mr. WIDGET~ :applaud: :D

[eso]

I was able to convert the file using an intermediate translator...


Widget

Mr. Widget, could you send me the CAD file? I have software that can read .dwg and many other cad formats.

I'd like to have that for my archive.




eso

[EvilFuzz]

Wow, Mr. Widget!! Thanks! THANKS!!
Now I can start my first big studio monitors project :bouncy:


I was able to convert the file using an intermediate translator...


This drawing scaled 1:1 and can be used like profile template, as I understand? Are vanes profile absolutely similar with 2397?

And I have a question about drivers...
I can't find 2440 or 2441 in Russia; delivery from the USA will be too much expensive and take much time (our postal services are collapsed now, unfortunatly), but my friend can give me a pair of Altec 288 or 299, for my choice... What Altec drivers do you recommend for these horns?

Thank you one's again,
Best regards,
Kirill aka EvilFuzz

PS: when I start making horns, I'll post pictures of working progress and results :)

[Mr. Widget]

This drawing scaled 1:1 and can be used like profile template, as I understand? Are vanes profile absolutely similar with 2397?Yes, and yes.

There is a thread where someone posted a very clever way of making the vanes. I used a CNC myself.


Widget

[EvilFuzz]

There is a thread where someone posted a very clever way of making the vanes. I used a CNC myself.

Maybe this: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59519&postcount=13 ?
CNC is absolutely perfect way, but I haven't access to it. Only my hands and Festool equipment)

And what you say about Altec 288 or 299 for Westlake style horns? I'm just newcomer at Altec/JBL bailey :)

Thanks,
Kirill

[eso]

Maybe this: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59519&postcount=13 ?
CNC is absolutely perfect way, but I haven't access to it. Only my hands and Festool equipment)

And what you say about Altec 288 or 299 for Westlake style horns? I'm just newcomer at Altec/JBL bailey :)

Thanks,
Kirill

You could just as easily make them by hand if you know how to work accurately. Make template for reference, and make the vanes as one long piece of baltic birch ply. Using very sharp hand planes and using the laminations in the ply as reference points to keep the cuts true.

Once the full length piece is shaped it can be veneered if desired or finished as is. Then just cut the vanes to length using a table saw with a miter gauge or a miter saw. Remember to wrap the areas where you're cutting in masking tape to eliminate tearout from the saw cut.

This is how I made the forms I use for the little Urei coax horns in my avatar, and also how I made not only the vanes, but all of the parts of the Yuichi horns that are mentioned in the TrueXtent diaphram thread.

For making a pair of horns, I could probably make the pieces this way before I could have the jigs and set-up for the router done.

Now, if I were going into production I'd do the set-up as it would be a good move for higher volume.

my 2¢


eso

[grumpy]

One could do the same thing with a band saw or belt sander, depending
on what tools were available; a pair of locating pins would help for the
cutting/sanding as well as the glue-up (this may have been part of the
referred-to jig... I don't recall).

(...or do what I see now that Eso just posted...took me a minute to figure
out which way to orient the plywood vs the plane cuts :))

With the Altec drivers, you'd either need adapters (1.4->2", then 2"->
rectangular such as the JBL 2328 to fit the 2397 wood interface), or
make your own, perhaps reducing the distance between top/bottom
:dont-know ... sort of like what Johnny did here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5454

I don't recall anyone here doing this such that you could use
their experience.

[eso]

One could do the same thing with a band saw or belt sander, depending
on what tools were available; a pair of locating pins would help for the
cutting/sanding as well as the glue-up (this may have been part of the
referred-to jig... I don't recall).

(...or do what I see now that Eso just posted...took me a minute to figure
out which way to orient the plywood vs the plane cuts :))

With the Altec drivers, you'd either need adapters (1.4->2", then 2"->
rectangular such as the JBL 2328 to fit the 2397 wood interface), or
make your own, perhaps reducing the distance between top/bottom
:dont-know ... sort of like what Johnny did here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5454

I don't recall anyone here doing this such that you could use
their experience.

I would run the grain down the length of the piece, but the reality is with Baltic Birch you're going to be cutting through just as much cross-grain as with grain.

I have several really nice Lie-Neilsen very low angle planes and these great diamond encrusted sharpening plates that make it quick and easy to keep the irons sharp enough to shave with. Planing Baltic Birch ply will dull an iron quickly: razor sharp is the key to doing this effectively.


eso

[Mr. Widget]

With the Altec drivers, you'd either need adapters (1.4->2", then 2"->
rectangular such as the JBL 2328 to fit the 2397 wood interface), or
make your own,...I tried a couple of attempts to make them work with a TAD 1.5" driver and was never happy with the results.

I'd recommend sticking with a 2" driver. The best results I had with them was with a TAD TD-4001 2" driver.


Widget

[yggdrasil]

John W made one for 1.5" drivers: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14125&highlight=2397

Since you seem to start with Altec 1.4" drivers, I would recommend starting with John W's version.

[EvilFuzz]

Thanks for answers, friends!

2397 has only 1.375 distance from top to bottom, so did JBL make this model for use with 1.4" drivers primordially, as I can suppose? Or I'm wrong?

Yggdrasil, Mr. Widget, I plan take 288 or 299 now just for a start, and make several throat adapters... TD-4001 is my future, as I hope))
In project of studio monitors what I want to build, horns must be integrated, like Westlake's, so I must use one size of horn...

Best regards,
Kirill

PS: and what is the best for your taste - 288 (not old C version) or 299?

[Mr. Widget]

2397 has only 1.375 distance from top to bottom, so did JBL make this model for use with 1.4" drivers primordially, as I can suppose? Or I'm wrong?
JBL never had a 1.4" or a 1.5" driver while this horn was in production.

They did make a 1" to 2" adapter so that you could mount a 1" driver on it, but in my opinion, that combination was significantly inferior to using the two inch driver.

Realize that both this generation Westlake horn and the JBL 2397 are designed to work with the JBL 2328 2" to rectangular throat adapter. If you do not use this adapter you will have significantly different results.


Widget

[EvilFuzz]

JBL never had a 1.4" or a 1.5" driver while this horn was in production.
I'm not really a specialist of JBL history yet, unfortunately. Sorry for my ignorance...

[eso]

Top and Section views of the Westlake horn.

Kicking the dead here.

This fool had a pair of early Westlake horns and didn't make a drawing of them before selling them. Now someone is asking me to make a pair so searching for a few details.

Widget, in your drawing you're calling 1.375" height and the vanes with a 2" driver? or was this a smaller version for a smaller driver?

The horns I had here were 2" high through there. See the photos. I didn't take and great detail photos, but it is possible to see the full circle of the driver mouth at the mounting point.

Could you share your CAD drawing with me? I could use so detail on the profile of the vanes.

eso

[Mr. Widget]

The version of Westlake horn that I borrowed and measured was for 2” exit drivers. It used JBL’s 2328 throat adapter.

I don’t have any information left that I didn’t post on the forum here. There are more detailed drawings that I posted, but searching the forum is very difficult, especially for posts from around 20 years ago.


Widget