Geez, who the hell needs TAD [Archive] - Lansing Heritage Forums

djnagle

03-12-2010, 08:26 AM

Hi All, I spend the day listening to several different horns using the TAD 4001 and JBL 2445 with the TrueXtent Beryllium diaphragms. WOW is all I can say. We got the TrueXtents from Black Swamp Audio and in every instance I thought the 2445s with the Beryllium diaphragm sounded better. Not by very much mind you: and I am JBL biased, but for the price of the diaphragms and the 2445 that is readily available, it is a no brainer which one I am buying.

Here is a shot of all the horns we brought together at Brad's (Black Swamp Audio) for critical listening. It was me, Dan (Cosmos), Rick (Tubino), and Brad. We had 2 sets of Yuichi horns, Smith horns, 2 pairs of Edgar horns, and Matinelli horns. All but the Martinellis took 2" compression drivers. We had 2 pairs of TAD 4001s and a pair of JBL 2445 with TrueXtent Beryllium diaphragms. My favorite combo was Rick's Yuichi horns with Dan's JBL 2445 drivers. There are not enough words to discribe the sound....if was wonderful.

1audiohack

03-12-2010, 09:40 AM

OK, just to get this straight, you didn't just read the spec's, or measure anything, you just listened?!? What a concept! I wonder if it will catch on?

Mr. Widget

03-12-2010, 10:07 AM

Hi All, I spend the day listening to several different horns using the TAD 4001 and JBL 2445 with the TrueXtent Beryllium diaphragms. WOW is all I can say. We got the TrueXtents from Black Swamp Audio and in every instance I thought the 2445s with the Beryllium diaphragm sounded better. Not by very much mind you: and I am JBL biased, but for the price of the diaphragms and the 2445 that is readily available, it is a no brainer which one I am buying.I appreciate your comments on potential bias. :D

I would think they would sound very similar... the differences being the TADs have slightly more powerful magnets and a different type of Be diaphragm. Is the TrueXtent 4" voice coil made in house? Winding them is a bit of an art form... I'd love to know more.

As you mention, used 2445s are quite abundant and affordable, and short of physical abuse and damage, a used pair with new diaphragms should be quite fine. How much are they charging for these diaphragms? Are there different impedances offered?

Widget

JoMoCo

03-12-2010, 11:40 AM

They have been advertising them for sale over at Audiogon in the 16ohm version. Supposedly the 8ohmers will be for sale soon. approx $700.ea...:eek:

JeffW

03-12-2010, 11:50 AM

Here's the thread from this site:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=27802

cosmos

03-12-2010, 12:09 PM

scott fitlin

03-12-2010, 12:29 PM

My question is where is the audible improvement according to frequency? Is it the upper range of the driver, or the lower end of it's operating range?

cosmos

03-12-2010, 01:13 PM

My question is where is the audible improvement according to frequency? Is it the upper range of the driver, or the lower end of it's operating range?

Scott,

That's a good question. They are certainly very extended in HF. Each diaphragm is individually tested on 2445 prior to shipment and a graph is included in the box. I have not run RTA testing on them yet.

However, I don't perceive the reason to buy them as frequency response though. In my mind, the biggest advantage is their sound. They just sound smooth and detailed.

Presently, I have them on some large homemade horns that are based on 248Hz Tractrix curve. They sound very open and natural.. Pictured here on top of 4507 cabinets loaded with E145-8 and actively crossed over at 480 Hz (24db Butterworth).

No the horns are not finished yet. Maybe this weekend I will get some time...

spkrman57

03-12-2010, 01:28 PM

I wish I had the time to visit and hear them in person.

Hopefully in a month or two!

Regards, Ron

Mr. Widget

03-12-2010, 01:39 PM

Ok here is an interesting question and quite appropriate to this thread. JBL 2445 was not know to be a very refined driver for HIFi use. I think that is a given. They do sound very nice with the TrueXtent Beryllium diaphragms.

Is there a better body to use these diaphragms in, from a HiFi perspective?The 2445 is a ferrite version of the classic 2440. The main short coming of the 2445 compared with the 2440/2441 was the sonic character of the diaphragm. Using a new Be diaphragm in both 2445s and 2441s, I doubt you would hear a difference.

However, I don't perceive the reason to buy them as frequency response though. In my mind, the biggest advantage is their sound. They just sound smooth and detailed. I've been singing that song for years about the TADs. Real Be is a real improvement... and while the proof is in the listening, it is in the physics too. Be, is simply the best material for high frequencies. Period!

Then again, if you can't afford Be, Mg is second, and AL is not bad either. Ti is great for durability, but it isn't ideal sonically.

Widget

cosmos

03-12-2010, 02:09 PM

Ti is great for durability, but it isn't ideal sonically.

Interesting you make this comment. Brush Wellman is touting as a selling point that their diaphragms are more durable than Titanium or Vapor Deposition Beryllium because of their process.. Sounds like you can get the best of both worlds? I won't ever put my drivers to test in HiFi use, but for SR..

The 2445 is a ferrite version of the classic 2440. The main short coming of the 2445 compared with the 2440/2441 was the sonic character of the diaphragm. Using a new Be diaphragm in both 2445s and 2441s, I doubt you would hear a difference.
That makes complete sense to me. I tried (on 350Hz Edgar horns) swapping Radian 1245-8 diaphragms with 2441 and 2445 motors and could not perceive a difference. The 2445 with the Aluminum Radian diaphragms sounded smoother than with their stock Ti diaphragms, but they lost HF extension. It was the results of that test that led me to buying Truextent diaphragms. I figured that the body was improvable by simply changing diaphragms and Beryllium should give good HF extension and smooth, musical sound.

I like it.. :)

scott fitlin

03-12-2010, 02:27 PM

Scott,

That's a good question. They are certainly very extended in HF. Each diaphragm is individually tested on 2445 prior to shipment and a graph is included in the box. I have not run RTA testing on them yet.

However, I don't perceive the reason to buy them as frequency response though. In my mind, the biggest advantage is their sound. They just sound smooth and detailed.

Presently, I have them on some large homemade horns that are based on 248Hz Tractrix curve. They sound very open and natural.. Pictured here on top of 4507 cabinets loaded with E145-8 and actively crossed over at 480 Hz (24db Butterworth).

No the horns are not finished yet. Maybe this weekend I will get some time...I wasn't asking how they measure. I am asking WHERE do you think you hear improvement?

I just am curious to what you hear and how you would describe it.,

scott fitlin

03-12-2010, 02:34 PM

Dingusboy

03-12-2010, 02:45 PM

I would think they would sound very similar...

Widget

VERY similar indeed. I'm not AS quick to designate the Be 2445 the winner in every combination we listend to as Dennis but I can say without hesitation that they did sound every bit the TAD equal. when you consider cost and the earned reputation the TAD TD-4001's enjoy, that's saying alot.

cosmos

03-12-2010, 02:50 PM

I wasn't asking how they measure. I am asking WHERE do you think you hear improvement?

I just am curious to what you hear and how you would describe it.,

Scott, perhaps I wasn't very clear in my response. I guess what I meant to say is that compared to stock Ti diaphragms, Truextents sound like:

1. They go as high or higher in HF frequency response.
2. They are smoother sounding throughout the entire coverage.
3. Instrument details appear clearer and more listen able.
4. I do not perceive any sibilance like I do in the stock diaphragms.
5. The midrange seemed richer with more body or fullness. More "Soul"

Compared to the Radian 1245, the Truextents:

1. Go significantly higher.
2. Sound every bit as smooth, but more detailed.

It is a significant upgrade to either the stock or Radian diaphragm.

When we compared to TAD TD-4001, the gap was narrow. Interestingly, the TAD sounded better on Edgarhorns, but they weren't the same Edgar horns and there is definitely a difference in the horns themselves. The 2445Be were on the red horns in the picture while the TAD-4001 were on the wood tone ones. However, on the same Yuichi horns, the 2445Be sounded best to me. It was the best combination of the day, in my mind.

These are my observations and YMMV. :)

Maron Horonzakz

03-12-2010, 04:36 PM

The JBL 476be diaphrams have a diamond pattern surround,,,The BrushWelman be phrams have a mylar type surround.

djnagle

03-12-2010, 04:56 PM

My question is where is the audible improvement according to frequency? Is it the upper range of the driver, or the lower end of it's operating range?

Hi Scott, for me, the improvement was across the board. Not so much in tonality, detail, or extention, but in clairty without harshness. With the TADs if we cranked it up, I could hear a harshness that was not there with the TrueX. The one thing I really like with both the TADs and the 2445-Be was they sounded SOOO much better than my 2441s with Radian Diaphragms. With those I MUST run a tweeter. Not so with either the TAD or 2445-Be.

djnagle

03-12-2010, 04:59 PM

The 2445 is a ferrite version of the classic 2440. The main short coming of the 2445 compared with the 2440/2441 was the sonic character of the diaphragm. Using a new Be diaphragm in both 2445s and 2441s, I doubt you would hear a difference.

Widget

I hope that is the case Widget. I have a pair of re-maged 2441s with Radian diaphragms and as soon as I can I will get the TrueX. Nothing wrong with the Radian....in it's place. I think with a Digital amp they would sound better but they are just too smooth for tube amps.

Mr. Widget

03-12-2010, 05:02 PM

When we compared to TAD TD-4001, the gap was narrow. Interestingly, the TAD sounded better on Edgarhorns, but they weren't the same Edgar horns and there is definitely a difference in the horns themselves. The 2445Be were on the red horns in the picture while the TAD-4001 were on the wood tone ones. However, on the same Yuichi horns, the 2445Be sounded best to me. It was the best combination of the day, in my mind.First of all, let me state that I will make a few comments about TADs, not so much as to defend them but to explain them and to share my experience.

When you compared the TAD TD-4001s to the 2445Bes were you using factory fresh TADs? Because TAD drivers and the replacement diaphragms are so expensive most people have only heard used TADs. I have measured (and listened to) a number of new and used TADs over the years, and just like our beloved JBLs, many of the used drivers are tired and no longer sound like a new driver. You can remedy this by buying a pair of new TAD 4001 diaphragms, but they cost $3K a pair!!!

Another point. The TAD driver is essentially a copy of the JBL 375/2440/2441 with a slightly larger alnico magnet. The Be diaphragm though is not the same as the Brush Wellman material. As has been mentioned before, it is made by a vapor deposition process which makes a more rigid diaphragm than the stamped foil that Brush Wellman uses. The two negatives that I can think of for using the TAD diaphragms are that when they do fail, they do so rather violently and the dust is toxic, and they tend to have a rather pronounced UHF break up mode. That said, I imagine the more rigid TAD diaphragm may offer a slightly more detailed sound.

All that aside, I have done most of my listening to TAD's TD-4003. It uses a unique 4" diaphragm that has a Be half roll suspension much like the old 2440 diaphragm and it operates through a more modern phase plug and 1.5" exit. The JBL 476Be uses somewhat similar geometry and a JBL spec Brush Wellman diaphragm. Both of these are a significant step up from the TAD TD-4001 or 2445Be. The JBL 476Be is really unavailable and the TAD TD-4003 is remarkably expensive. If I were considering a new DIY project, I'd seriously consider a pro JBL 4" diaphragm 1.5" exit driver with one of these Be diaphragms installed.

Widget

grumpy

03-12-2010, 05:07 PM

Would think the 2446+ phase plug might be of some benefit in the 2" exit format
if considering going two-way... or the newer OA 1.5" exit, but then the horn
is another variable for comparison purposes.

JeffW

03-12-2010, 05:13 PM

If I were considering a new DIY project, I'd seriously consider a pro JBL 4" diaphragm 1.5" exit driver with one of these Be diaphragms installed.
Widget

That's heartening news, all things considered.

I'd still like to see some measurements on these Truextent diaphragms and a JBL driver with the newer phase plug.

Mr. Widget

03-12-2010, 05:13 PM

I hope that is the case Widget. I have a pair of re-maged 2441s with Radian diaphragms and as soon as I can I will get the TrueX. Nothing wrong with the Radian....in it's place. I think with a Digital amp they would sound better but they are just too smooth for tube amps.People who have hurt their ears with Ti diaphragms clammer for smooth... ;) with Be, you get smooth, but what I find more compelling is the electrostat like details that you get while still maintaining the dynamics of horns.

Another thought about preferring the 2445Be over the TD-4001... perhaps the electronics weren't the greatest and hearing more detail was not desirable? I am speculating here since I have not heard the TrueXtent diaphragms, and I could except that an individual might like the 2445Be more than the TD-4001, but I doubt it is superior.

Widget

cosmos

03-12-2010, 05:44 PM

When you compared the TAD TD-4001s to the 2445Bes were you using factory fresh TADs?

Good point, Widget. They were used drivers, but they were only used in home HiFi, probably not to the use levels seen in PA/SR. Were they 100%.. I dunno.. :blink:

I can point blank tell you that the 2445Be was close to the level of the 4001s that we heard. I readily accept that one person may hear differently or choose one over another. In my mind, that's a given.

Here's an offer for you, if you have some big JBL bodies, I'll send you my pair of TrueXtent diaphragms for you to listen to... It will have to be before or after AKFest though (May 1-2) as they will be in my listening room at the fest.. Hell, I'd be tempted to fly out there with them in hand..

In any case, they sound good. Really good. Are JBLs with the TrueXtents the equal of TAD TD-4003, JBL 2452H-SL, 476Be, etc etc.. I don't have a clue. I have never heard the aforementioned. Two of the three are so pricey that few people have them or just plain unavailable. But I can say that the 2445Be sound as good as or better than any driver I have heard.

Perhaps, one of these days I will be lucky enough to own or hear something better.. I would wholeheartedly welcome the opportunity to hear something better. Then I'd know where to go next. Until that day, the 2445 with Truextent diaphragms are the best driver I believe I have heard.. :)

In any case, compared to other options and their performance, for the cost they are great!

Ian Mackenzie

03-12-2010, 05:46 PM

I am just wondering if in each case the horns were either electronically or passively equalised for a flat response (on axis)?

Most of these horns are not constant directivity and depending on the driver/horn combination you may have a flat/ non flat on axis or off axis response. That can add up to audible differences that make sound quality comparisons difficult to quantify.

My favorite combo was Rick's Yuichi horns with Dan's JBL 2445 drivers

They do look very nice.

scott fitlin

03-12-2010, 05:53 PM

Hi Scott, for me, the improvement was across the board. Not so much in tonality, detail, or extention, but in clairty without harshness. With the TADs if we cranked it up, I could hear a harshness that was not there with the TrueX. The one thing I really like with both the TADs and the 2445-Be was they sounded SOOO much better than my 2441s with Radian Diaphragms. With those I MUST run a tweeter. Not so with either the TAD or 2445-Be.Yes, I hear you on this.

And for me, the fact that I DO use tweeters, when I used the TAD drivers, it was too much VHF output, even with rolling the driver off, actively.

I also found the drivers work better on some horns than others. This has been said in this thread too.

In my application, and as I stated I have tweeters, the JBL has better lower end sound to me, the TAD and Be phragm more in the upper ranges.

scott fitlin

03-12-2010, 06:06 PM

Agreed. There really isn't anything else available. JBL certainly doesn't want to make their drivers available. And who knows what is going to happen after June. There is the possibility that Mexico won't be able to make the Be diaphragms... one should be able to extrapolate from there. ;) JBL had first shot at selling the TrueXtents as replacement diaphragms and declined.OK, so, then it should be no problem for or with JBL!

After all, everything is based upon capitalism. Some want them so someone will sell them.

And, this is just another example of how we will get on, even if it is without stateside JBL.

So what I extrapolate is that IF I cannot replace what I use with JBL parts, I could give Truextent a try, and come out with stellar results, too.

Whether or not they are exactly to JBL spec as IF they were making and marketing them, they are getting really good review here.

Either way, we go on.

Mr. Widget

03-12-2010, 06:09 PM

Here's an offer for you, if you have some big JBL bodies, I'll send you my pair of TrueXtent diaphragms for you to listen to... It will have to be before or after AKFest though (May 1-2) as they will be in my listening room at the fest.. Hell, I'd be tempted to fly out there with them in hand.. Very generous. A few years ago I'd be sending you a PM, but I am not really doing the DIY bit these days. I won't say that I can't see myself ever doing it again, but at present I am more than happy with what I have and don't have time to explore every avenue just for the sake of exploration.

I am sure you are right though. I am sure they do sound very, very good.

Widget

JoMoCo

03-12-2010, 06:50 PM

Maybe as JBL USA corporate implodes...market savy, high quality cottage industry here in the US will have better opportunities because of the vaccuum....:hmm:

cosmos

03-12-2010, 06:51 PM

So what I extrapolate is that IF I cannot replace what I use with JBL parts, I could give Truextent a try, and come out with stellar results, too.

Whether or not they are exactly to JBL spec as IF they were making and marketing them, they are getting really good review here.

Either way, we go on.

I wonder how soon Brush Wellman will have 1" diaphragms available... I thought I heard or read it was coming.

I have always loved JBL vintage stuff. If this is a way to go on and actually improve, with technology, on the original, I am good with it. I love the sound I am getting now. It may not be the best available, but it's pretty freakin' good. The combo of the 2445Be and E145-8 is pretty sweet, in my mind. :)

Long live JBL.

scott fitlin

03-12-2010, 07:10 PM

I wonder how soon Brush Wellman will have 1" diaphragms available... I thought I heard or read it was coming.

I have always loved JBL vintage stuff. If this is a way to go on and actually improve, with technology, on the original, I am good with it. I love the sound I am getting now. It may not be the best available, but it's pretty freakin' good. The combo of the 2445Be and E145-8 is pretty sweet, in my mind. :)

Long live JBL.I agree, I found things throughout the years that either defy conventional wisdom, or were NOT of the original manufacturer. And for whatever reason, worked to my satisfaction, or exceeded my expectations.

If you never experiment, you will never know. Also, just so you know, I am in no way trying to be confrontational, or saying the Truextents do not perform as your ears tell you they do. I am just asking questions, as I, too, am interested in these. I have six TAD 4002 drivers, and on my 2395 horns, in a 3 way full range configuration, don't care for them. Conversely, put them on a different horn, possibly the TAD AFAST horn, but NLA today, in a 2 way configuration, I thought they were great. But, a very different sound, to my ears, than the JBL family of compression drivers.

Years ago, Meyer Sound was having JBL make 2441,s for them, even after JBL stopped making them, and Meyer had their drivers with a Be diaphragm FROM JBL. So, the use of Truextent 'Be' diaphragms has my interest.

Thanks for sharing, keep it coming, YES this is how we KEEP ON!

JoMoCo

03-12-2010, 07:12 PM

From the Truextent frontpage link - "Production shipments of 4” voice coil diameter diaphragm assemblies will begin in the second half of 2009, with 2¾” diameter, 1¾” diameter and 3” diameter shipments ramping up thereafter. These diaphragm assemblies are engineered to fit the majority of existing compression driver motors."

http://www.truextent.com/

djnagle

03-12-2010, 09:56 PM

Yes, I hear you on this.

And for me, the fact that I DO use tweeters, when I used the TAD drivers, it was too much VHF output, even with rolling the driver off, actively.

I also found the drivers work better on some horns than others. This has been said in this thread too.

In my application, and as I stated I have tweeters, the JBL has better lower end sound to me, the TAD and Be phragm more in the upper ranges.

I am in the same boat. With my 2441 with Radian diaphragms (on Soundlab 400hz round tractrix horns) I use the Big A$$ Heil on top for high end extention. In that combo, I really like the lusher lower end of the 2441.

djnagle

03-12-2010, 10:02 PM

OK, just to get this straight, you didn't just read the spec's, or measure anything, you just listened?!? What a concept! I wonder if it will catch on?

I know, novel right? For myself, I much prefer to listen to something for quite a while before doing any measurements. I find that if I have Objective data before hand, I will only listen to the areas that I saw issues with.

Just listening for a while allows me to evaluate the system by my ear, which is all that counts, before narrowing down issues to be addressed.

That don't work if the speaker is way out of whack of course.

djnagle

03-12-2010, 10:04 PM

Hey Cosmos, after all the time we spend listening, I never asked what Black Swamp is asking for the diaphragms. Is he selling them direct or is he the one that has them listed on Agon?

scott fitlin

03-12-2010, 10:23 PM

I am in the same boat. With my 2441 with Radian diaphragms (on Soundlab 400hz round tractrix horns) I use the Big A$$ Heil on top for high end extention. In that combo, I really like the lusher lower end of the 2441.Yeah, I use JBL 2404,s on top of the 2395/2441 lens horns, and have 2402 in clusters of four down the center of the room. The 2441, and JBL Al diaphragm give percussion, strings, keyboards, and bass notes that dynamic snap.

I will look into acquiring a pair of the Be 'phragms for my 2441,s. I want to hear this, and what it can do.

djnagle

03-12-2010, 10:39 PM

scott fitlin

03-12-2010, 11:17 PM

Yep, I want to do the same thing. I have three DIY projects going at the same time and not working that much so I think it will be a bit before I can afford them. That said, my system sounds great as is and I could live with it for ever....but you know how this stuff works.I do know how this goes, and goes, and.... keeps going, never ending! :D

I agree with much that has been said in this thread about Be. Highly resolving, of the most minute details, very smooth, and goes up very high, in comparison to other compression drivers with al diaphragms. depends on how you like to hear your music, I guess. On one hand, having the TAD,s I do hear microscopic detail, very polite sounding, and they do go up. OTOH, my TAD 2in drivers are not as dynamic sounding as my JBL 2in drivers, so to me, it just depends on the presentation one prefers.

Mr. Widget

03-12-2010, 11:28 PM

I know, novel right? For myself, I much prefer to listen to something for quite a while before doing any measurements. I find that if I have Objective data before hand, I will only listen to the areas that I saw issues with. I usually listen first myself... if you see a plot you tend to believe in it too much and begin to hear the plot.

That said, disregarding measurements altogether is foolish. Often I have found a polarity issue or a driver not performing quite as well as it should. My ears are certainly not good enough to pick out each and every sonic gremlin. ;)

OTOH, my TAD 2in drivers are not as dynamic sounding as my JBL 2in drivers, so to me, it just depends on the presentation one prefers.That reminds me of an article I read years ago where John Meyer was explaining that even though his subs were significantly louder than the Altec or JBLs that he was competing against, because of the Meyer's lack of distortion and coloration, they didn't sound as loud subjectively.

Widget

scott fitlin

03-13-2010, 01:09 AM

That reminds me of an article I read years ago where John Meyer was explaining that even though his subs were significantly louder than the Altec or JBLs that he was competing against, because of the Meyer's lack of distortion and coloration, they didn't sound as loud subjectively.

WidgetI have read the article myself. And IT IS TRUE!

And for whatever reason, the ear hears two items, likes one item specifically, better than the other, and measurements suggest the opposite of the ear.

Mr. Widget

03-13-2010, 02:15 AM

I have read the article myself. And IT IS TRUE!

And for whatever reason, the ear hears two items, likes one item specifically, better than the other, and measurements suggest the opposite of the ear.I think it depends on the ear. ;)

Widget

4313B

03-13-2010, 02:17 AM

Here's an offer for you, if you have some big JBL bodies, I'll send you my pair of TrueXtent diaphragms.Ok. If you want to drop off a pair to me I'll go ahead and measure them against the D16R2441 and D16R2445 diaphragms that I have for stock network compatibility purposes. It's too late for me to measure them directly in a stock 4345 network because I have to ship the pair of 4345 networks that I have out Monday morning but I can at least get the data into LEAP. It could be interesting to also measure a pair of 2446 cores but I don't have any. I only have 2440/2441 and 2445 cores.

Given that the 1.75 inch diaphragms are going to be available soon do you want me to hold off aquaplasing your 2425 diaphragms as well as your 2445 diaphragms? Either way, I will have them in Perrysburg for you on Monday.

herki the cat

03-13-2010, 03:14 AM

OK. If you want to drop off a pair to me I'll go ahead and measure them against the D16R2441 and D16R2445 diaphragms that I have ... It could be interesting to also measure a pair of 2446 cores but I don't have any. I only have 2440/2441 and 2445 cores.

4313B, I do hope you have time to measure the "Truextent Be" in the 2440 since i have 2440's with new JBL D16R2440 diaphragms which are identical to the 375 diaphragms. I think you have a pretty good ear. Many people, especially musicians trained at an early age & those speaking two more languages before age 6, do hear many things other people do not hear.

A great deal depends on the program material heard in evaluations, especially if the music is lacking spectrum
content to excite some disagreeable artifact in the unit under test. In my 17 by 35 ft living room, which is an awesome jungle of book cases & records, two
electronic organs, furniture & other huge speaker systems etc, I have a special low level speaker system on my TV compensated for Fletcher Munson Effect around 70 db-C, sound pressure level.

I hear a remarkable difference at that level in every TV microphone and the room sound used by every person speaking live or on film. You cannot fool speech; you have heard live speech all your life and the cues stand out unmistakably with out the emotional envollment with a nice recording of music.... Ca sufi com ca.

cheers, herki the cat

Dingusboy

03-13-2010, 05:01 AM

Ok. If you want to drop off a pair to me I'll go ahead and measure them against the D16R2441 and D16R2445 diaphragms that I have for stock network compatibility purposes. It's too late for me to measure them directly in a stock 4345 network because I have to ship the pair of 4345 networks that I have out Monday morning but I can at least get the data into LEAP. It could be interesting to also measure a pair of 2446 cores but I don't have any. I only have 2440/2441 and 2445 cores.

Given that the 1.75 inch diaphragms are going to be available soon do you want me to hold off aquaplasing your 2425 diaphragms as well as your 2445 diaphragms? Either way, I will have them in Perrysburg for you on Monday.

I have a pair of 2446's we can use for measurements.

scott fitlin

03-13-2010, 06:39 AM

I think it depends on the ear. ;)

WidgetWell, maybe, but I think everyone has things they like, that measurements would indicate otherwise.

4313B

03-13-2010, 08:13 AM

I have a pair of 2446's we can use for measurements.Well, I could swing by Monday after work and pick them up along with a pair of the 16 ohm diaphragms if you're so inclined. The intent would be to measure the impedance and frequency response on a H93/2311 horn for use in 43xx Studio Monitors. If you have a horn you'd also like measured for LEAP data I could do that at the same time. Send me a PM and let me know.

scott fitlin

03-13-2010, 09:19 AM

Well, I could swing by Monday after work and pick them up along with a pair of the 16 ohm diaphragms if you're so inclined. The intent would be to measure the impedance and frequency response on a H93/2311 horn for use in 43xx Studio Monitors. If you have a horn you'd also like measured for LEAP data I could do that at the same time.That would be cool. I want to see what these diaphragms and motors measure like.

spkrman57

03-13-2010, 09:31 AM

4313B,

Brad has a pair of my Edgar 350hz round wooden tractix horns (2") at his house right now. Would you be willing to measure those horns for me in addition to doing his?;)

Thanks, Ron

Well, I could swing by Monday after work and pick them up along with a pair of the 16 ohm diaphragms if you're so inclined. The intent would be to measure the impedance and frequency response on a H93/2311 horn for use in 43xx Studio Monitors. If you have a horn you'd also like measured for LEAP data I could do that at the same time.

4313B

03-13-2010, 09:43 AM

Progneta

03-17-2010, 02:47 PM

For those there to listen (Brad, Rick, Dan)...What did you listen too when performing the listening test?

-Grant

djnagle

03-17-2010, 02:56 PM

We went through the gambit. Rock, jazz, blues, folk, techno, and just a bit of classical but it was parts of non classical songs so not a good comparison there. I can't remember the exact titles, but now that you ask, I will take notes next time. Cheers.

4313B

03-17-2010, 06:13 PM

djnagle

03-17-2010, 06:39 PM

Hey 4313B, that is really strange about the mold. Have you ever seen that before....I've not.

I will anxciously (bad speller) the results of the 2441 as that is what I have.

originaltubino

03-17-2010, 08:51 PM

For those there to listen (Brad, Rick, Dan)...What did you listen too when performing the listening test?

-Grant

Sine waves. :p

Not sure if you meant equipment or music, but someone else asked about the electronics and the rest of the system, and I didn't see an answer. It was a two-way with a TAD 1601a in a ~7 cu. ft box tuned to low to mid 30s. The system was bi-amped with DeHavilland Aries SE A2 845 mono amps on the bottom, and Larry Moore's UltraFi SE 845 on top, with crossover at 700 on (somewhat noisy) Heathkit X0-1 crossovers. Crossovers have since been replaced by 650hz units built around the Steve Bench PCB design using 6DJ8 as cathode follower and carefully matched parts (quieter and much cleaner, better imaging). Volume was set with an autoformer unit using the Intact Audio/Dave Slagle units.

For at least part of the time the HF was my Yuichi S-290 wood horns (built by Woody Banks -- credit where it's due!) with TAD TD4001. For a part of the time for round two we had a new pair of Lambda/AE TD-15M woofers in the same cabinets. Great setup -- just about 8 t-nuts short of perfect. ;)

I've been promised a chance to live with JBL drivers using the Truextant diaphragms in swap for my 4001's for a week. I think a week with my system and my wood horns (much overlap with what we listened to at Brad's) will really give me chance to learn the differences. I have my suspicions, and I suspect differences will be slightly more pronounced when crossover frequency is say 500 rather than 800. Or maybe I was picking up on the special damping qualities of the mold. :D It was a lot of fun to try out different combinations, but I'm not much for definitive judgments under these circumstances.

--Rick aka tubino

cosmos

03-17-2010, 09:05 PM

I pulled the back cap off one of the borrowed 2445 drivers to check the Be diaphragm and was greeted with a ton of mold. I quickly took the whole mess outside to the detached garage and will deal with it tomorrow when I get home from work. It was a real show stopper. After I clean it all up with some bleach I'll probably replace the felt in the cap with the JBL foam.

I'll pull the other 2445 apart when so motivated and check it too.

I finished all the 2441 measurements. I guess I'll post the results in a different thread at some point.
That is really strange considering they haven't even been together very long (a few weeks) and have been in my house the entire time...

However, I glued in the padding on one of them with Arlene's tacky glue, when I dropped in the TrueXtents. I'll bet I trapped moisture in the cap from the glue.. and where there is moisture...

4313B

03-18-2010, 06:50 AM

I immediately suspected the felt or glue. I wish that I'd snapped a picture of it. Very smelly cotton candy stuffed inside the back cap is as best as I can describe it. It's even growing on the Be diaphragm ( evidently Be isn't toxic to mold :rotfl: )

So what are the names of these horns I am testing? Edgar and Yuichi?

I was talking with JBL last week and these TrueXtent diaphragms came up (didn't have anything to do with this thread). I relayed the story to Brad the other day and he can fill you in at the next meeting you guys have.

JBL probably doesn't like the idea of TrueXtent coming out with 1.75" and 3" versions either. Oh well. It's obviously a tough world we live in.

Dingusboy

03-18-2010, 06:59 AM

So what are the names of these horns I am testing? Edgar and Yuichi?

The Round horn is an 350hz Edgarhorn (tractrix flare).

The other is a Yuichi A-290, a 290hz with a hyperbolic flare - it's a clone of the TAD TH-4001.

Mold and Be - two great toxins that go great together!!!

spkrman57

03-18-2010, 07:16 AM

JBL probably doesn't like the idea of TrueXtent coming out with 1.75" and 3" versions either. Oh well. It's obviously a tough world we live in.

JBL does not want to supply the DIY hobbyist or other avenues in this country, but they don't want anyone else to either! (?)

Regards, Ron

Ian Mackenzie

03-19-2010, 02:54 AM

I really dont think it matters much as JBL has not been pushing its drivers to EOM s for over a decade now, favouring to push branded fully built ranges to various pro segments. As I recall they did not have control of what the OEM s were using once RCF and Beyma and few others moved in after the QA issues in the 90s.

Diyers will always need motors and crossovers and diaphragms but that will never support the commercial side of a business case.

But if the recent publicity popularises Be in the eyes of the consumer audio press then compression drivers might capture the imagination of the well healed audio public who need bigger, louder but accurate sound.

originaltubino

03-19-2010, 11:43 AM

I really doubt Brush-Wellman's business plan is counting on DIYers. I think they are after the pro market for replacement diaphragms, and that's why they emphasize durability as much or more than extreme fidelity.

There are a bazillion pro sound guys blowing up diaphragms on a regular basis, and then there is a handful of home audio fanatics who can live off a pair of diaphragms for the rest of their natural lives. As a consumer group we're not even the tail on the pro audio dog. We might be the pimple on the flea on the tail of the dog. I bet 90% of the people who use 2" compression drivers in their homes in the US are in the cumulative contacts lists of readers of this and maybe 2 other forums. Add one more degree of separation and we'd get most of the rest of the world too.

Pro audio is an industry. We're a little club. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I just don't think we are in the marketing equation for the manufacturers.

Mr. Widget

03-19-2010, 12:49 PM

Pro audio is an industry. We're a little club. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I just don't think we are in the marketing equation for the manufacturers.:(

We're still important to our mothers!

Widget

Dingusboy

03-19-2010, 03:29 PM

:(

We're still important to our mothers!

Widget

True, but even the moms think we are a bit odd.

JuniorJBL

03-19-2010, 03:58 PM

originaltubino

03-19-2010, 05:41 PM

True, but even the moms think we are a bit odd.

Amen to that. Mine keeps asking why I don't implement a proper gain structure with the bi-amping, and questions my use of damper diodes for a preamp power supply. She still loves me though, and I'm saving some 5AR4's for her for Mother's Day.

More on topic, maybe, how would I ascertain if my TADs have tired diaphragms? The point was made above that most of us only get to hear TD-4001's that have been through the pro sound wringer. I don't *think* mine have been abused, but how would I know? Would this show up on FR response, or maybe it's a hard-to-measure transient response thing?

I'm not curious enough to buy a new pair.

spkrman57

03-19-2010, 06:24 PM

Would T/S testing using WT2 or WT3 show the possible tired drivers?

Ron asks.....

Amen to that. Mine keeps asking why I don't implement a proper gain structure with the bi-amping, and questions my use of damper diodes for a preamp power supply. She still loves me though, and I'm saving some 5AR4's for her for Mother's Day.

More on topic, maybe, how would I ascertain if my TADs have tired diaphragms? The point was made above that most of us only get to hear TD-4001's that have been through the pro sound wringer. I don't *think* mine have been abused, but how would I know? Would this show up on FR response, or maybe it's a hard-to-measure transient response thing?

I'm not curious enough to buy a new pair.

Mr. Widget

03-19-2010, 10:31 PM

... how would I ascertain if my TADs have tired diaphragms? The point was made above that most of us only get to hear TD-4001's that have been through the pro sound wringer. I don't *think* mine have been abused, but how would I know? Would this show up on FR response, or maybe it's a hard-to-measure transient response thing?PM sent.

Widget

herki the cat

03-20-2010, 01:09 AM

However, I glued in the padding on one of them with Arlene's tacky glue, when I dropped in the TrueXtents. I'll bet I trapped moisture in the cap from the glue.. and where there is moisture...

C.P. Moyen Co. Inc. offers a comprehensive "Industrial Adhesives, Epoxies, and coatings, printed catalog titled: "Product Selector guide" describing specific applications on "metal, paper, foam & cloth" in loud speaker Assembly, including identification of each Moyen Adhesive solvent system, aka: Toluene, Methy Ethyl Ketone, Toluene, or water, each solvent depending on the speaker component to be cemented.

Call C, P. Moyen Co., Customer Service at 1-847-67-6866, for the "Product Selector Guide."

Cheers, herki the cat

djnagle

03-20-2010, 08:01 AM

The last time I glued in foam pads I used a hot glue gun. I opened them up a couple years later and saw no issues. I think white glue is made with floorer and that would mold.

4313B

03-20-2010, 08:46 AM

The Arlene's glue is definitely the culprit.

Whatever1

04-26-2010, 08:54 AM

Scott,

That's a good question. They are certainly very extended in HF. Each diaphragm is individually tested on 2445 prior to shipment and a graph is included in the box. I have not run RTA testing on them yet.

However, I don't perceive the reason to buy them as frequency response though. In my mind, the biggest advantage is their sound. They just sound smooth and detailed.

Presently, I have them on some large homemade horns that are based on 248Hz Tractrix curve. They sound very open and natural.. Pictured here on top of 4507 cabinets loaded with E145-8 and actively crossed over at 480 Hz (24db Butterworth).

No the horns are not finished yet. Maybe this weekend I will get some time...

Are these a 2 way system ? I have some Jubilee bass bins and was wondering if this would work with say 402 horns.
Is there much EQ required with the horns pictured ?

Don McRitchie

04-27-2010, 08:13 AM

An interesting JBL driver candidate for diaphragm replacement with Be would be the 2450. This driver was originally developed to accommodate a Be diaphragm as JBL was considering going head to head with TAD with that design. It was the reason for the development of the "Coherent Wave" phase plug. It allows for output from the diaphragm to be recombined in-phase at the driver throat in comparison to the out-of-phase output from a traditional phasing plug with variable length paths. According to JBL, it really only works with a Be diaphragm. The Al and Ti diaphragms are in breakup mode over most of their bandwidth, and as one designer said, are so "phasey" that there is limited benefit from the "Coherent Wave". However, a Be diaphragm, being pistonic for most of its bandwidth, would theoretically benefit the most.

This theoretically in-phase output would be a unique driver attribute compared to the TAD drivers and even JBL's current Be drivers. It would be interesting to have feedback if this two decade old technology actually results in a superior driver with a Be diaphragm.

grumpy

04-27-2010, 08:41 AM

Should also be applicable to the (20lb heavier) 2446 motor/phase-plug, no?

cosmos

04-27-2010, 09:38 AM

Are these a 2 way system ? I have some Jubilee bass bins and was wondering if this would work with say 402 horns.
Is there much EQ required with the horns pictured ?

These horns and drivers are running on a 2 way system. We have tried them with 2226, E145, Tad TL-1601A and Lambda TD-15M woofers. The horns pictured sound great, but have not been properly measured yet. Hopefully, they will be in the near future.

grumpy

04-27-2010, 09:47 AM

back to that. OK, I have 1.5 and 2.0" PWT's started in the garage...
of course they'd only be good for comparisons on -those- PWT units, but
impetus to finish them to a usable state is a good thing.

After exchanging emails with Truextant and perusing their web pages,
I see the curves they represent their product with is on a 2446J body
(using the 16 ohm dia) and 2386 horn (flat front, 40x20 CD horn) ...
which -sort of- answers the question about the worthwhile-ness of using
a 2446 or 2450 with the CW phase plug.

spkrman57

04-28-2010, 09:06 AM

I'm using a pair of JBL 2446 bodies with the Tru-extent Be diaphrams on 350hz round Edgarhorns.

I don't know how different things would be with other horns or CD's, but I do know that I'm spoiled with what I have. I can't think of using Al or Ti diaphrams anymore as none of them play as "smooth and/or detailed".

I also am running a 2-way w/JBL 2226 on the bottom end. Some may need a tweeter, but for my ears it does just fine without tweeters.

Just my 2 cents worth of course!

Regards, Ron

Robh3606

04-28-2010, 07:48 PM

but I do know that I'm spoiled with what I have.

Hello Ron

Yes the Beryllium sure sounds nice. It's a nice upgrade.

Rob:)

cosmos

04-28-2010, 08:45 PM

Anyone attending AK Fest this weekend in Detroit will be able to see these (pictured here under construction) playing with TrueXtent BE-4016 Beryllium diaphragms. Yes, I agree, they are smooth.. :)

1audiohack

04-28-2010, 10:15 PM

Wow are those hell for cool or what! If they sound half as great as they look you're golden.

pos

04-29-2010, 12:34 AM

Has anyone compared the 2435H to these 4" Be drivers (1.5" or 2") ?
I am thinking about upgrading my 2435H to these (I already have 2452 cores), but will it be a significant upgrade if used in the 800Hz-10KHz (maybe 15khz) range?

Robh3606

04-29-2010, 03:43 AM

Anyone attending AK Fest this weekend in Detroit will be able to see these

Hello Cosmos

Oh they look nice! What is that a folded bass horn or a reflex box down there?? How low do your horns load they look big in the pictures.

Rob:)

cosmos

04-29-2010, 05:32 AM

Thanks for the kind comments, guys! I'll get some post construction pics up this weekend. They are Birch and Mahogany, braced well and heavy as a brick. A BIG brick..

Hello Cosmos

Oh they look nice! What is that a folded bass horn or a reflex box down there?? How low do your horns load they look big in the pictures.

Rob:)
Hi Rob,

The LF box is a bass reflex and will be tunable. It will be using Lambda TD-15X woofers, but I will be trying other woofers (E145, 2226, Lambda TD-15M and Tad TL-1601A) as well.

The horn design frequency is 248 Hz and is about 16" tall and 24" wide. I will be crossing about 600 Hz or thereabouts and running 2445/BE4016 on the HF side. Inspiration was K2S9800 (et.al.) TAD TD2401/2 type two ways. While I have tweeters to add in, I don't feel the need in the prototype setup. They are simply the best horn combination I have ever heard. Unfortunately, I haven't had some of the high end driver/horn exposure you guys have had, but they sound damn good. Hopefully, these will sound as good as the prototypes. I'll know if they do pretty well by the end of this weekend. :)

All the best.

Dan

spkrman57

04-29-2010, 08:38 AM

I made a last minute decision to travel up to Detroit Saturday for a quick one-day trip with Joe who lives nearby.

See you then Dan!

Ron

4313B

04-29-2010, 11:02 AM

If I wasn't busy building networks I'd go too but I just don't have the free time. Especially since the weekend after is a complete wash.

cosmos

04-29-2010, 03:17 PM

If I wasn't busy building networks I'd go too but I just don't have the free time. Especially since the weekend after is a complete wash.

Yes, I know how things go, but you're so close and this show is pretty damn cool.. :D

If you find the time to come, please introduce yourself. We're in room 235...

JeffW

04-29-2010, 04:08 PM

scott fitlin

04-29-2010, 07:52 PM

Awesome looking cabinets and horns. Cosmos, your the man. :applaud:

boputnam

05-03-2010, 09:10 PM

Or maybe I was picking up on the special damping qualities of the mold. :D Rick, et al...

I missed this "shoot out", but am interested in the mechanics of doing it?

- How were the A/B comparisons done?
- Where they blind, or was there re-wiring required and waiting?
- Was there a chance to switch quickly from A/B on the same source material, and re-track the same program to allow good objective comparison?

I'm worried less about the "gear" - what's more important is that everything "upstream" stay the same, and only the drivers change as seamlessly and quickly as possible and without the jury knowing.

These are hard 'xperiments to do right - maintaining blind objectivity is a real goal. You are testing some very hi-end technologies. Do you have any pictures of the listening space? I've done these (on other gear) and would love to know how you got it all done. :bouncy:

speakerdave

05-03-2010, 10:41 PM

Any thoughts as to why the 2450 seems to be rather unpopular? Is it because of the "snout" on it compared to say the 2452? Seems like 244X or 2451/2 are referenced much more often than the 2450.

Snout? Yeah--that could be it. It really should be mated to the ancient gradual expansion style horn that goes back to the '30's. Or it might just be a matter of somebody saying something on line and it gets repeated endlessly by people who never saw one of the drivers. The 2452, 2447, 2451 can be mounted to the 2352 type maximized aperture horn; Zilch says the combo is endlessly good. The original diaphragm is a ribbed titanium, designed for tough duty SR. I haven't even bother to listen to it. I put SL diaphragms in mine and mounted them on 2311's and used them for a couple of years in my 4345's. The only thing I tried that sounded better was a TAD 2001 on the original horn.

I'm guessin' the 2450 with a Still Extant beryllium diaphragm has got to be good.

JeffW

05-04-2010, 06:40 AM

Snout? Yeah--that could be it. It really should be mated to the ancient gradual expansion style horn that goes back to the '30's. Or it might just be a matter of somebody saying something on line and it gets repeated endlessly by people who never saw one of the drivers.

There's not a lot I've seen posted about using the 2450 - positive or negative - out there, so negative internet ramblings don't seem to be it. The Meyer Sound usage and subsequent modification of the 2450 seem to indicate that they liked it.

The original diaphragm is a ribbed titanium, designed for tough duty SR. I haven't even bother to listen to it. I put SL diaphragms in mine

I listened to the ti phragms and have the -SLs ready to put into service directly, I'm looking forward to that.

I'm guessin' the 2450 with a Still Extant beryllium diaphragm has got to be good.

A sentiment that Don's post would seem to back up. I'm sure I'll give a set a whirl once I get to that point.

spkrman57

05-04-2010, 06:59 AM

I got the chance to see and hear Cosmos speakers.

Since I also have Be diaphrams in my JBL drivers, I was interested in the difference between his system and mine.

Cosmos used SS electronic crossover and Lambda 15X driver (sounds similiar to JBL 2235), and of course his signature horns powered by Keggers tube amps (less than 10 wpc).

I use a passive crossover (currently 1.6khz until I get the 800hz wired up running), 350hz Edgarhorns and JBL 2226 drivers. I have a tubed electronic crossover being built for me in OK, but it will be a few more weeks until it is done and delivered.

I figured out some of the flaws in my current system by listening to Cosmos system. I'm thinking 800hz crossover will sound better than the 1.6khz I have now. I think the Lambda are better in the bass region, but the 2226 is better in the midbass/midrange region and more efficient(3 db) if you are passively crossing over helps keep overall efficiency up high (97.4db).

As much as I like my Edgarhorns, I have already put in my request to Cosmos to build me a pair of his horns(radial-tractix?), They are really nice, and I'm fairly picky about what I like, they don't quite image like the Edgarhorns, but you have a nice large listening area.

Regards, Ron

4313B

05-04-2010, 09:12 AM

There's not a lot I've seen posted about using the 2450 - positive or negative - out there, so negative internet ramblings don't seem to be it. The Meyer Sound usage and subsequent modification of the 2450 seem to indicate that they liked it.It's a neo 2446 which means it lost a whole lot of weight (20 lbs.) If you have it, use it?

If I'm not mistaken they cost a bit more than the 2446, and that cost is in the weight savings.

As much as I like my Edgarhorns, I have already put in my request to Cosmos to build me a pair of his horns(radial-tractix?), Good deal!

JeffW

05-04-2010, 06:52 PM

It's a neo 2446 which means it lost a whole lot of weight (20 lbs.) If you have it, use it?

Oh, I'm using them. I was just wondering why relatively few others seem to be. If not the snout, them maybe the cost might be it. I don't know, and I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, but they are what I have.

cosmos

05-07-2010, 08:32 PM

Here they are, as they appeared at AKFest 2010. They sounded great and I think they looked pretty nice too. They aren't quite done yet.. feet yet to come.

Elac310

04-27-2014, 07:53 AM

Interesting you make this comment. Brush Wellman is touting as a selling point that their diaphragms are more durable than Titanium or Vapor Deposition Beryllium because of their process.. Sounds like you can get the best of both worlds? I won't ever put my drivers to test in HiFi use, but for SR..

That makes complete sense to me. I tried (on 350Hz Edgar horns) swapping Radian 1245-8 diaphragms with 2441 and 2445 motors and could not perceive a difference. The 2445 with the Aluminum Radian diaphragms sounded smoother than with their stock Ti diaphragms, but they lost HF extension. It was the results of that test that led me to buying Truextent diaphragms. I figured that the body was improvable by simply changing diaphragms and Beryllium should give good HF extension and smooth, musical sound.

I like it.. :)

In my 2445 core (5 slit metal core) I have tried NOS D16R2445 (original Ti diaph), NOS D16R2441 (aluminium), Non-JBL Be diaphs, and some aftermarket stuff (ribbed Ti). The non-JBL Be had indeed extremely smooth sound (great on classical music, opera, violin etc) and more HF extension in the area 8-12kHz but then dropped dramatically in a way which I did not manage to compensate with a passive crossover using HF boost circuitry. Aftermarket ribbed Ti diaphs gave a similar sound (no joke). 2441 Al diaphs were very smooth indeed, but lacked UHF extension and impact in the 2445 core with my horns.

For the time being, I've decided to stay with the NOS 2445 Ti diaphs due to their UHF extension capabilities with the UHF boost circuit, general sound impact and resolution etc. , and tried to get the best and most out of them with appropriate horn and equalising. I'm still working on it: Russian NOS capacitors in the mid and the HF/UHF crossover paths give a harmonically rich and milder yet very resolved sound (I discovered that the 2445 shows the limits of classical MKP caps) , adjusting cap/coil values and boost level carefully, adding a serial 30 ohm cap etc. have helped a lot smoothing reasonably the 2445 diaph, without loosing attack and the "bite" of this diaph which is so extraordinary on pop rock, jazz and good recordings generally etc.

2445 Ti diaphs do not forgive bad recordings, any saturation in the mikes and recording preamps etc...This is noticeable on good recordings made for instance in natural ambiance with mikes run at high power supply levels with tube preamps. The Ti diaphs can be a pain in the neck but also a fantastic magnifying glass of recording defects... In contrast, the Be and aftermarket ribbed Ti diaphs allow you to forget about the system on most recordings and classical music but still...Tweeter is needed and something is missing in terms of impact to my taste.

Elac310

04-27-2014, 08:02 AM

Here they are, as they appeared at AKFest 2010. They sounded great and I think they looked pretty nice too. They aren't quite done yet.. feet yet to come.

These are very nice horns/waveguides and in my experience up to now, an excellent geometry for home-FI use on a 2" driver. I had, similarly, a pair of 2" entry JBL-inspired "butt-cheeks" horn custom-made by someone, which give so far the best compromise in terms of openness, presence, equalising possibilities, UHF extension etc. . At least in comparison for instance with JBL 2350 which is definitely a long throw PA horn (but I intend to test these with extra vertical lips some day as recommended by JBL), 2382a which is a great design but has too broad coverage in my home and gives a lesser sensation of immediacy to the sound etc.

ivica

04-27-2014, 10:02 AM

In my 2445 core (5 slit metal core) I have tried NOS D16R2445 (original Ti diaph), NOS D16R2441 (aluminium), Non-JBL Be diaphs, and some aftermarket stuff (ribbed Ti). The non-JBL Be had indeed extremely smooth sound (great on classical music, opera, violin etc) and more HF extension in the area 8-12kHz but then dropped dramatically in a way which I did not manage to compensate with a passive crossover using HF boost circuitry. Aftermarket ribbed Ti diaphs gave a similar sound (no joke). 2441 Al diaphs were very smooth indeed, but lacked UHF extension and impact in the 2445 core with my horns.

For the time being, I've decided to stay with the NOS 2445 Ti diaphs due to their UHF extension capabilities with the UHF boost circuit, general sound impact and resolution etc. , and tried to get the best and most out of them with appropriate horn and equalising. I'm still working on it: Russian NOS capacitors in the mid and the HF/UHF crossover paths give a harmonically rich and milder yet very resolved sound (I discovered that the 2445 shows the limits of classical MKP caps) , adjusting cap/coil values and boost level carefully, adding a serial 30 ohm cap etc. have helped a lot smoothing reasonably the 2445 diaph, without loosing attack and the "bite" of this diaph which is so extraordinary on pop rock, jazz and good recordings generally etc.

2445 Ti diaphs do not forgive bad recordings, any saturation in the mikes and recording preamps etc...This is noticeable on good recordings made for instance in natural ambiance with mikes run at high power supply levels with tube preamps. The Ti diaphs can be a pain in the neck but also a fantastic magnifying glass of recording defects... In contrast, the Be and aftermarket ribbed Ti diaphs allow you to forget about the system on most recordings and classical music but still...Tweeter is needed and something is missing in terms of impact to my taste.

Hi Elac310,

I have got almost the same conclusion with the measurements
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34180-2445J-with-2311-Horn&p=353522&viewfull=1#post353522

Regards
ivica