Transistor vs. Tubes

[wolfshead]

For many years there are those who prefer either transistors or tube
amps. Transistors did allow higher power at a much cheaper cost than tubes. The need for large efficent speakers , such as horns and large base reflex speakers came to an end as a result of the transistor.

The vast majority of speakers today in the United States has been built around multi-driver affairs with complex power eating crossovers due to high power transistor amps at cheaper prices.

Europe remains to this day an innovator in friendly efficent loudspeaker design. One might wonders why designers in the US have not returned to their roots improving the designs of Altec and especially JBL speakers.
These types of speakers do very well with low powered amps.


What do many of you prefer tubes or transistors , is there really a tube sound ? how about a transistor sound. Does the newer speakers sound better with transistor amps ? Older one's with tubes ?

[grumpy]

You've got to be kidding...

[JBL 4645]

You've got to be kidding...

:rotfl:

April fools isn’t till next month.:D

I don’t like tubes. One they are fragile. Two I fear it might explode leaving showers of glass around the living room also they look ugly.

Transistor amplifiers are easy to install no worries about, breaking the tubes or exploding.

As too a transistor sound over tube sound I have only heard one tube amp at richluvsound digs, no pun on the tubes they sounded great, wonderful but I just fear breaking them in my home, especially with cat that’s curious, he might start try pulling the tubes out or spraying on it, BANG! LOL oh, no! See my point!

So I’ll be staying with transistor amps most hard PA of today stay with them and very few out there use them.

Anyway I have used a tube linear power boaster for my CB radio in the past and I never was comfortable adjusting the plate and load o the thing. The blue light colour and bright glowing orange of 250watts illegal output on the SSB and on the legal CB27FM screw the government, I’m not going to broadcast 4watts I’m going with 250watts!

[wolfshead]

:rotfl:

April fools isn’t till next month.:D

I don’t like tubes. One they are fragile. Two I fear it might explode leaving showers of glass around the living room also they look ugly.

Transistor amplifiers are easy to install no worries about, breaking the tubes or exploding.

As too a transistor sound over tube sound I have only heard one tube amp at richluvsound digs, no pun on the tubes they sounded great, wonderful but I just fear breaking them in my home, especially with cat that’s curious, he might start try pulling the tubes out or spraying on it, BANG! LOL oh, no! See my point!

So I’ll be staying with transistor amps most hard PA of today stay with them and very few out there use them.

Anyway I have used a tube linear power boaster for my CB radio in the past and I never was comfortable adjusting the plate and load o the thing. The blue light colour and bright glowing orange of 250watts illegal output on the SSB and on the legal CB27FM screw the government, I’m not going to broadcast 4watts I’m going with 250watts!

You are correct , tubes are fragile , run hot , requires expensive transformers , heavy and has a short life expectancy , but many audio hobbist counter they are musical , soft and has a warmth that transistors lack. Oh yes expensive. Does the pro's outweight the cons ?

[scott fitlin]

You are correct , tubes are fragile , run hot , requires expensive transformers , heavy and has a short life expectancy , but many audio hobbist counter they are musical , soft and has a warmth that transistors lack. Oh yes expensive. Does the pro's outweight the cons ?In some cases yes they very much do. but, one can also get the tube sonics, using line level components, and SS amplifiers, and have the best of both worlds. Tube warmth and naturalness, and SS control and current delivery to woofers.

Back in the days that tubes ruled the world, it was the only things we had to do the job. They built HUGE speakers, with larger rear chamber volumes than they do today, and highly efficient drivers, to work with the power we had available at the time.

Today, just as we have European made high efficiency designs, and tube gear, so to, do we have American made stuff of this type too. BUT it is a much smaller niche market. unlike yesterday when it was the norm.

Size and expense come into play here. And you or I may love something and use it based only on the sonic attributes, doesn't mean the rest of society will agree and follow, and PURCHASE these kinds of products.

As it happens, there really are a great deal of tube amps available, and large speakers that will work with low power amps too. many speakers available based upon the older designs as well. But, again, small market compared to what is the norm today.

One thing I really do agree with you on, though, is that you need large speakers to reproduce big sound, properly. But, tell the consumers of today and see if you can make it sell in numbers the manufacturers today are used to selling!

Then, the expense! Your gonna have a harder time convincing todays consumer that they NEED a 20 watt per channel tube amp that costs $11,000, over a $1600 250wpc SS amp. You will just never convince enough that your way is the correct way, especially in todays world economies.

However, in defense of today, too, there are many SS amps that do sound fantastic, and AFAIC, SS can and does surpass tube amps in the LF, although mids and hf sound phenomenal with tubes.

Personally, I do line level tube, and SS amplification! Works very well for me, too.

[JBL 4645]

You are correct , tubes are fragile , run hot , requires expensive transformers , heavy and has a short life expectancy , but many audio hobbist counter they are musical , soft and has a warmth that transistors lack. Oh yes expensive. Does the pro's outweight the cons ?

Transistor least expensive least the ones I brought 20 years ago, where around £40, Marantz 1050 £45 Marantz 1050 and £40 Marantz 1030. Alesis RA300 x3, £140.00.

The Marantz still kicking for 30 year old amplifier thou there mostly used for HF today and surrounds while RA300 do LF and centre back and LFE.1.

I’ve never once seen a tube amp selling for second-hand in the common Exchange and Mart, may have at Hi-Fi shop, but the cost, that is what they are.

I’m curious how well a tube amp will stand-up against Star Trek 2009 on Bluray with the LFE.1 track?

[scott fitlin]

Playing HT or music recordings that contain very deep LF at high level, tube amps can quickly run out of gas. You might also notice tube bass is not as tight as SS bass. But, mids and highs thru tubes are darling sounding, especially todays digital music. Again, cost, and size, plus heat and ventilation issues will always be a consideration when it comes to tubes.

However, there are stellar sounding examples of both types of technologies today. It isn't 1967 anymore, when transistors really did sound terrible!

[SEAWOLF97]

You've got to be kidding...

no ......

and the next thread will be:

ford vs chevy (or Toyota vs Honda for the import guys) ..when driving to buy new audio gear.

coke vs Pepsi ..when listening to audio gear.

Repub vs Democrat listening styles


ad infinitum.

Ad infinitum is a Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) phrase (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_phrases) meaning "to infinity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity)."
In context, it usually means "continue forever, without limit" and thus can be used to describe a non-terminating process, a non-terminating repeating process.



how 'bout a topic that hasn't been beaten to death before ??:snore:

[JBL 4645]

Playing HT or music recordings that contain very deep LF at high level, tube amps can quickly run out of gas. You might also notice tube bass is not as tight as SS bass. But, mids and highs thru tubes are darling sounding, especially todays digital music. Again, cost, and size, plus heat and ventilation issues will always be a consideration when it comes to tubes.

However, there are stellar sounding examples of both types of technologies today. It isn't 1967 anymore, when transistors really did sound terrible!

Scotty
Wow thanks for the heads-up. They wouldn’t explode due to sudden high peak levels in LFE.1 frequency?

Transistor types was used for Earthquake Sensurround and didn’t have issues least the shows I saw kept on playing at silly high SPL 120 db.

[scott fitlin]

no



how 'bout a topic that hasn't been beaten to death before ??:snore::applaud:

You got a point! But, i'll cut Wolfie some slack here. I mean, hey, Rip Van Winkle woke up twenty years later, world was vastly different. And it has even been a bit longer for Wolf, since 1969, so :)

[scott fitlin]

Scotty
Wow thanks for the heads-up. They wouldn’t explode due to sudden high peak levels in LFE.1 frequency?

Transistor types was used for Earthquake Sensurround and didn’t have issues least the shows I saw kept on playing at silly high SPL 120 db.The tube won't explode.

Yeah, by 1974 that BGW amp used to run the Cerwin Vega Earthquake worked pretty well in it's intended application!

[JBL 4645]

The tube won't explode.

Yeah, by 1974 that BGW amp used to run the Cerwin Vega Earthquake worked pretty well in it's intended application!

Whew that’s a load of my mind. Okay they won’t explode. What about glass cracking? Also do these have to be treated like video projectors or is the heat dissipated away from the tube as its in an open space for cooling.

BGW, bet those are vintage today, if there are many around in existence?

Here! Doesn’t Tom, have one pair in his home? hmm?

Edit:
I’m reading up on the BGW now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BGW_Systems

[jcrobso]

What heck it's my birthday, got my medicare card in my pocket, might as well have some fun!:applaud:
First off, I love my tube guitar amp, many guitar players do.
They describe the sound as "FAT", Hi-Fi people describe the sound as "warm".
It's the same sound, the guitar amp will probably have 3~5% distortion were the Hi-Fi amp will usually have a little less than 1% distortion.
Tubes age, their values change, adjustments need to be made, they can become micro-phonic and add strange noises to the audio, run hot, big transformers, etc.
I'm NOT putting tube amps down, just stating what I found out from experience. I remember our big mono console, it would start sounding bad, so pull out all 26 tubes and off to have them tested, find the bad one(s) get new ones and back home.
SS amps just run, yes things can go wrong, but with a tube amp you know that things are going to go wrong.:(

[JBL 4645]

What heck it's my birthday, got my medicare card in my pocket, might as well have some fun!:applaud:


:birthday: jcrobso didn't see it on the main board?

[Allanvh5150]

Just to dispell a few myths, tubes have always been more powerful than solid state ranging from powers in the milliwatt range all the way up to 1 Mega watt plus. Tube amps can also deliver plenty of bottom end. Just fo an example, 4 x 211 tubes are capable of pumping out 1000 watts without too much of a problem.

Allan.

[scott fitlin]

Just to dispell a few myths, tubes have always been more powerful than solid state ranging from powers in the milliwatt range all the way up to 1 Mega watt plus. Tube amps can also deliver plenty of bottom end. Just fo an example, 4 x 211 tubes are capable of pumping out 1000 watts without too much of a problem.

Allan.What would or does a 1000 watt per channel, or 1000 watt mono block tube amp cost? How large are they?

Even though we may be able to make a tube amp that can produce this much power, for music playback application my opinion is a GREAT SS amp still makes better low end.

OTOH, take a Powersoft amplifier, these have, in addition to other modern features most pro amps have today, a variable damping control. Running folded horns, and the grip of modern SS amps is too tight for the cabinet? Reduce the damping, dial in to your taste!

These amps, like other makes of modern pro amplifiers, does work, and makes OUTSTANDING low end.

[JBL 4645]

no ......
and the next thread will be:
coke vs Pepsi ..when listening to audio gear.



I’m going to pop out and buy thou it’s against my own policy not to drink it, it’s a rotten drink but, I feel I should put it to the test. Back in short jiffy!

[hjames]

The bottom line is - audiophiles are a dying breed. I have tried to talk audio with my coworkers, and all they want is an easy to use integrated system that isn't too big and ugly in the room. They want all-in-one Home theatre receivers and small speakers discretely placed around the room - and maybe a subwoofer for booms in their movies. They want easy-to-use portable music - like ipods or the Zune player, so they can have their music with them wherever they go, bedroom, kitchen, car beach, even at work ...

They don't care about having the best sound, they just want it everywhere, not superb.

They don't generally care about tubes or transistors - they want ease of use.
There is no market for what we like - thats why you can't find it at Macy's or Busted Buy ...
Its us older folks that fuss with and care about these things -
and there are less of us every year.

That's not a 100% truth, of course, there are some gen y types that DO appreciate nicer gear, but - not like the music heydays we remember ... those days are gone.

[scott fitlin]

The bottom line is - audiophiles are a dying breed. I have tried to talk audio with my coworkers, and all they want is an easy to use integrated system that isn't too big and ugly in the room. They want all-in-one Home theatre receivers and small speakers discretely placed around the room - and maybe a subwoofer for booms in their movies. They want easy-to-use portable music - like ipods or the Zune player, so they can have their music with them wherever they go, bedroom, kitchen, car beach, even at work ...

They don't care about having the best sound, they just want it everywhere, not superb.

They don't generally care about tubes or transistors - they want ease of use.
There is no market for what we like - thats why you can't find it at Macy's or Busted Buy ...
Its us older folks that fuss with and care about these things -
and there are less of us every year.

That's not a 100% truth, of course, there are some gen y types that DO appreciate nicer gear, but - not like the music heydays we remember ... those days are gone.Yes, this, but also cost. I know many guys that LOVE certain things, but cannot spend the money the things cost to own!

JBL Pro makes some great drivers, and I get many compliments on my 2242,s and someone asks what they cost, they want them, but cannot afford. TAD, many love these 15,s and their comp drivers! Cost is horrendously expensive.

But, these guys don't throw their hands in the air and do without music playback either. They buy more affordable components, and they know they may not be quite as good, but they can play and listen to music!

It really is a myth that people don't care about, pay attention to, or care about sound quality. When they DO hear somerthing exceptional they make comments like WOW THIS SOUNDS AMAZING! But just because they cannot afford what I may use won't stop them from having something to listen to.

I love the Bentley GT Coupe Speed! That car is over 250 grand, I can't afford a car this expensive, but I adore it! But I still have a car, I didn't NOT get a car cause I can't have the Bentely!

[JBL 4645]

The bottom line is - audiophiles are a dying breed. I have tried to talk audio with my coworkers, and all they want is an easy to use integrated system that isn't too big and ugly in the room. They want all-in-one Home theatre receivers and small speakers discretely placed around the room - and maybe a subwoofer for booms in their movies. They want easy-to-use portable music - like ipods or the Zune player, so they can have their music with them wherever they go, bedroom, kitchen, car beach, even at work ...

They don't care about having the best sound, they just want it everywhere, not superb.

They don't generally care about tubes or transistors - they want ease of use.
There is no market for what we like - thats why you can't find it at Macy's or Busted Buy ...
Its us older folks that fuss with and care about these things -
and there are less of us every year.

That's not a 100% truth, of course, there are some gen y types that DO appreciate nicer gear, but - not like the music heydays we remember ... those days are gone.

While most of it is improving on the multi-EQ auto room calibration features, SRSMyVolume, DolbyVolume and THXVolume 6.1 7.1 and (even 10.2 at an enormous cost)!

Still I prefer to use my own, amps and active crossover which most AVR don’t support its getting there but I’d sooner have cheap AVR with most of the processing under one roof, but it’s not fully mandatory in all models some have more, others have less. Some are gimmicks some look like they might have a future? Its too early to tell?

Booms isn’t natural because most upper portions from 36Hz might have large dip in their frequency response where it gives a different felling motion of bass and if the mix is playing it, the room in some way will be failing its reproduction.

It doesn’t take no more than, 1 minute to do a frequency sweep of the, sub/subs to find out where the low end stands within the room.

If I place the smaller sub at the front the lows are less reproduced where I need the common below 30Hz to 80Hz where the fronts are crossed off more or less at with the active crossover.

The main JBL sub well she’s in not such a good spot for lows above 38Hz where she starts dropping off due to the location VS the sofa. If I move the sofa forwards the dip will rise and start to smoothen out evenly.

The lower deeper below 30Hz where I can get the bugger to responded at 20Hz the very lowest 17Hz but not at high SPL db moderate levels in the room fine.

The other sub is shearing the LFE.1 where I use the (pan pot) on the mixer set at half-way so it sends the signal out to both. I did frequency graph recently.

The lows for LCRS are sent to the smaller sub the (pan pots) for that sub are sent to (Left) the (pan pots) for the JBL sub and the Eltax are set at centre position, otherwise it would be set to (Right).

One last thing, I am not an audiophile I spend cheaply and get just as good results, only thing is I have to keep the level down at night, due to neighbours. These walls have ears, you know.:D

[wolfshead]

no ......

and the next thread will be:

ford vs chevy (or Toyota vs Honda for the import guys) ..when driving to buy new audio gear.

coke vs Pepsi ..when listening to audio gear.

Repub vs Democrat listening styles


ad infinitum.

Ad infinitum is a Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) phrase (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_phrases) meaning "to infinity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity)."
In context, it usually means "continue forever, without limit" and thus can be used to describe a non-terminating process, a non-terminating repeating process.



how 'bout a topic that hasn't been beaten to death before ??:snore:
I am waiting for your thread sir. There are other forum members out there
that may be interested in the topic. I would suggest if you don't like the subject move on. There are many threads here that must interest you !

We are still discussing :
Democrats vs. Republican. Not Ford vs. Chevy but
Mercedes vs. BMW. Yankees vs. Red Sox Apple vs. Mac. etc. The more the world changes the more it remains the same.

[wolfshead]

Yes, this, but also cost. I know many guys that LOVE certain things, but cannot spend the money the things cost to own!

JBL Pro makes some great drivers, and I get many compliments on my 2242,s and someone asks what they cost, they want them, but cannot afford. TAD, many love these 15,s and their comp drivers! Cost is horrendously expensive.

But, these guys don't throw their hands in the air and do without music playback either. They buy more affordable components, and they know they may not be quite as good, but they can play and listen to music!

It really is a myth that people don't care about, pay attention to, or care about sound quality. When they DO hear somerthing exceptional they make comments like WOW THIS SOUNDS AMAZING! But just because they cannot afford what I may use won't stop them from having something to listen to.

I love the Bentley GT Coupe Speed! That car is over 250 grand, I can't afford a car this expensive, but I adore it! But I still have a car, I didn't NOT get a car cause I can't have the Bentely!

I agree , most high end goods are very expensive, due to the increase
cost in labor , materials and transporation.

I must admit the low and middle end audio is better than low end and middle audio was 30 years ago.
Today one can get by. Than again it all depends on one's reference point.

In St.Louis there once was a dozen audio salons. Today ONE !
THE AUDIO SHOPS HAD TO CHANGE OR GO OUT OF BUSINESS.
Most went out of business. Is todays clothing any different ?
It is not unusual to see athletic shoes worn to chuch or at a movie. jeans are worn with sport coats. An above average men's suit sells for more than
$1500 ! not excellent but above average.

[scott fitlin]

You got it right on Audio Shops. Once, we had dedicated shops selling 2 channel stereo. Today, new shops selling Home Theater audio systems. Same thing, only different.

The older shops that went out, only did so because they either couldn't or wouldn't change. And, except for the very high end of audio, and pro, 2 channel stero is over, same as mono was over in the 60,s with the advent of STEREO! And regardless of what we now may show and tell the general public, which is the largest make up of the consumer market, they won't buy what they don't want. And HT with DVD, + audio playback is what they want.

Heck, 10 years ago, and definitely 15 years ago, CD sounded like shit. But, except for the high end consumer, and the DJ market, vinyl was over. And I languished for quite some time before the CD had reached a level that was at least acceptable to listen to. BUT, eventually, CD did get better, and even good. Todays digital medias, are really taking off. Does it sound exactly the same as when? No, not necessarily, and in some ways, even better than what was.

See, Wolf, your right on now, the better gear has become exhorbitantly expensive, even prohibitively so. But, it is available, even if not by the name JBL.

But, I agree very much, the lower end, and MIDDLE CLASS of products are far superior to what middle end goods were 30 years ago. One can get by nicely. 30 years ago, middle ground was barely getting by, and the lower rung was utter garbage.

[scott fitlin]

Wolf, check this out! Proves your never too old to get into the new, and enjoy your life.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8550942.stm

:applaud:

[Sam Cogley]

Tastes great!

[Sam Cogley]

Less filling!










:D

[scott fitlin]

Tastes great.





:bouncy:

[JBL 4645]

Wolf, check this out! Proves your never too old to get into the new, and enjoy your life.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8550942.stm

:applaud:

:rotfl: I think Wolf has found his perfect match. :p Wow seems like if she can do it anyone can do it. Wow.

[Allanvh5150]

What would or does a 1000 watt per channel, or 1000 watt mono block tube amp cost? How large are they?

Even though we may be able to make a tube amp that can produce this much power, for music playback application my opinion is a GREAT SS amp still makes better low end.

OTOH, take a Powersoft amplifier, these have, in addition to other modern features most pro amps have today, a variable damping control. Running folded horns, and the grip of modern SS amps is too tight for the cabinet? Reduce the damping, dial in to your taste!

These amps, like other makes of modern pro amplifiers, does work, and makes OUTSTANDING low end.

All true Scott, I was just pointing it out. However I can build tube amps for about a buck 50 a watt. Marantz made a tube amp a few years ago, T8 I think not sure though. Extreamly huge money but take away the silver wound tranformers and all the flash bits that dont really make any difference and you can make the same amp for a tenth of the cost. It is also pretty easy to build a pretty dood tube amp. Having said that, all the amps that I have in my system are SS, keeps the room temperature down as well.:)

Allan.

[1audiohack]

Allanvh5150 Just to dispell a few myths, tubes have always been more powerful than solid state ranging from powers in the milliwatt range all the way up to 1 Mega watt plus. Tube amps can also deliver plenty of bottom end. Just fo an example, 4 x 211 tubes are capable of pumping out 1000 watts without too much of a problem.


I'll bet few people anymore have seen a 10,000 watt watercooled ceramic powergrid vacuum tube. Pretty bad ass! Are radiostations still tube powered? Don't laugh, I really don't know.

[Audiobeer]

You've got to be kidding...


Phug No! Next topic will be do cables really make a difference....or is Analog better than digital. It's all good! :barf:

[JeffW]

I'll bet few people anymore have seen a 10,000 watt watercooled ceramic powergrid vacuum tube. Pretty bad ass! Are radiostations still tube powered? Don't laugh, I really don't know.

I have quite a large vacuum tube collection as well as some large ceramics. I had a really large 25,000v hydrogen thyratron from a radar installation that was a couple of feet high, got broken during a move.

I have the Eimac 4- series from 4-65, 4-125, 4-250, 4-400, 4-1000 Always thought a nice 4-1000 audio amp would rock.

[hjames]

I have quite a large vacuum tube collection as well as some large ceramics. I had a really large 25,000v hydrogen thyratron from a radar installation that was a couple of feet high, got broken during a move.

I have the Eimac 4- series from 4-65, 4-125, 4-250, 4-400, 4-1000 Always thought a nice 4-1000 audio amp would rock.
I still have a pair of Klystron magnets somewhere from an old microwave transmitter tube ...
slap one of those on the side of your fridge and you can drag the fridge around the room with it, whoa!

[Allanvh5150]

Are radiostations still tube powered? Don't laugh, I really don't know.

Pretty much. All high power transmitters are still tube. You dont have to worry too much about over heating either.


Here is a link to a rather substantial tube.

http://www.cpii.com/docs/datasheets/78/4CM2500KG-X-2274.pdf

[1audiohack]

Pretty much. All high power transmitters are still tube.

I thought so but that is not my field.

I have an old Eimac book called Care and Feeding of Power Grid Tubes that I learned most of what little I know about tubes. I read it on a crosscountry flight years ago and at the end of the flight a lady asked me in all seriousness "Do you really have to feed them?" Too funny.

I think tubes are magic. Thank you Edwin Howard Armstrong!

[wolfshead]

You got it right on Audio Shops. Once, we had dedicated shops selling 2 channel stereo. Today, new shops selling Home Theater audio systems. Same thing, only different.

The older shops that went out, only did so because they either couldn't or wouldn't change. And, except for the very high end of audio, and pro, 2 channel stero is over, same as mono was over in the 60,s with the advent of STEREO! And regardless of what we now may show and tell the general public, which is the largest make up of the consumer market, they won't buy what they don't want. And HT with DVD, + audio playback is what they want.

Heck, 10 years ago, and definitely 15 years ago, CD sounded like shit. But, except for the high end consumer, and the DJ market, vinyl was over. And I languished for quite some time before the CD had reached a level that was at least acceptable to listen to. BUT, eventually, CD did get better, and even good. Todays digital medias, are really taking off. Does it sound exactly the same as when? No, not necessarily, and in some ways, even better than what was.

See, Wolf, your right on now, the better gear has become exhorbitantly expensive, even prohibitively so. But, it is available, even if not by the name JBL.

But, I agree very much, the lower end, and MIDDLE CLASS of products are far superior to what middle end goods were 30 years ago. One can get by nicely. 30 years ago, middle ground was barely getting by, and the lower rung was utter garbage.

The focus today in home theatre shops is video , not audio ! a major difference.
The declined in the interest in audio had more to do with marketing.
The decision was to market video,a much better growth possibility.
Than there was the change in musical taste as discussed before , one does not need accurate audio gear to listen to today's popular music.

As for as lower end audio , again the difference is in popular music , there is more of a demand in quality when listening to a Sinatra or Gleason recording using an orchestra and needing a large studio than today.

Marketing , not what people want , what people , the change in musical taste began with Elvis , a move away from American traditional music to
low cost production , after all Elvis did not need an orchestra !
Anyone could shake their hips . the lyrics and melody became secondary to the beat. The focus was on the artist not the music . " Hound Dog " What melody?, what lyrics ? is there any melody in rap ?
There are young people today who have not heard an orchestra.
Never listened to audio gear , only Ipods , and computer generated music.

Music and audio has changed !

[hjames]

Marketing , not what people want , what people , the change in musical taste began with Elvis , a move away from American traditional music to
low cost production , after all Elvis did not need an orchestra !
Anyone could shake their hips . the lyrics and melody became secondary to the beat. The focus was on the artist not the music . " Hound Dog " What melody?, what lyrics ? is there any melody in rap ?
There are young people today who have not heard an orchestra.
Never listened to audio gear , only Ipods , and computer generated music.

Music and audio has changed !

Did you read all of that somewhere?
Your prejudices and mistaken beliefs come out everytime you open a thread.
There is a wealth of music out there, stuff you don't take the time to investigate, but that doesn't make it valueless.
Walking around angry with blinders on doesn't change the world to your vision, it just means you stumble a lot more.

You're still stuck on Elvis, old man? Elvis died YEARS AGO.
Don't blame Buddy Holly either ... must be Little Richard's fault!
Sinatra? Music didn't end with those dead white men ...
People that were similarly angered at the whole beginning of the bobby soxers era -
useless fluff music with no depth - and that's where Francis Sinatra actually got his start.
Yep, its all downhill since Stephen Foster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Foster), eh?

have you heard Michael Buble? Melody Gardot? Jamie Cullum?
The Lounge singers didn't go away forever, there is a whole resurgence
in that kind of performer, and some of them are quite good.
Have you heard Chris Botti? What he does with a trumpet!
have you really spent any time listening to since, say, 1965?

Uninformed and arrogant is no way to go through life, sir ... you need to get out more.

[wolfshead]

Did you read all of that somewhere?
Your prejudices and mistaken beliefs come out everytime you open a thread.
There is a wealth of music out there, stuff you don't take the time to investigate, but that doesn't make it valueless.
Walking around angry with blinders on doesn't change the world to your vision, it just means you stumble a lot more.

You're still stuck on Elvis, old man? Elvis died YEARS AGO.
Don't blame Buddy Holly either ... must be Little Richard's fault!
Sinatra? Music didn't end with those dead white men ...
People that were similarly angered at the whole beginning of the bobby soxers era -
useless fluff music with no depth - and that's where Francis Sinatra actually got his start.
Yep, its all downhill since Stephen Foster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Foster), eh?

have you heard Michael Buble? Melody Gardot? Jamie Cullum?
The Lounge singers didn't go away forever, there is a whole resurgence
in that kind of performer, and some of them are quite good.
Have you heard Chris Botti? What he does with a trumpet!
have you really spent any time listening to since, say, 1965?

Uninformed and arrogant is no way to go through life, sir ... you need to get out more.
Are the entertainers you listed backed by an orchestra ? if so what orchestra and who did the arrangments for the orchestra ?
Gershwin , Porter , Kern , Berlin and Rogers I guess has no depth.
No point in discussing the classical masters , no depth.
Our schools have failed us.

White men ? I wonder was Johnny Mathis and Nat King Cole white ? ,
not to mention Duke Ellington and Earrol Garner ?

[scott fitlin]

Are the entertainers you listed backed by an orchestra ? if so what orchestra and who did the arrangments for the orchestra ?
Gershwin , Porter , Kern , Berlin and Rogers I guess has no depth.
No point in discussing the classical masters , no depth.
Our schools have failed us.

White men ? I wonder was Johnny Mathis and Nat King Cole white ? ,
not to mention Duke Ellington and Earrol Garner ?You ever heard of Yanni? Amazing man who uses electronics to create symphonic works!

Yanni CD,s are available!

[wolfshead]

You ever heard of Yanni? Amazing man who uses electronics to create symphonic works!

Yanni CD,s are available!

Tell me why would anyone wish to recreate a symphony using electronics ?
Why not try and listen to a symphony as close to the original as possibe.
That means analog. Symphonies don't perform in digital ! Digital is another
stage.

You are only supporting my thesis , many younger people have never visited a symphony , heard an orchestra and if technology continues
will never read a book or newspaper. The only music they are aware of is digital , either on a computer or Ipod.

The reason for the existance of audio was to recreate music as close
to the original as posible not add another stage !

[hjames]

Why would you decide that because we listen to one thing today we would not listen to another tomorrow?

We are not supporting your theory because you continue to be unable to read the words we put on the page - for you its either-or, we continue to embrace MANY possibilities.

Why not listen to a symphony one day and a synthesizer another day?
Why not toscanini today and moondog tomorrow?
Why not Yanni today and Rosemary Clooney tomorrow, or Patsy Cline the next. Why would you EVER set limits yourself when there is so much grand music available?

If you are unable to appreciate that range of music, thats another thing, but you saying it has no value is a personal belief and is not a truth in any sense. It just shows your narrow perspective. It is your right to have a narrow perspective, just as it is our right to tell you it is narrow.



Tell me why would anyone wish to recreate a symphony using electronics ?
Why not try and listen to a symphony as close to the original as possibe.
That means analog. Symphonies don't perform in digital ! Digital is another
stage.

You are only supporting my thesis , many younger people have never visited a symphony , heard an orchestra and if technology continues
will never read a book or newspaper. The only music they are aware of is digital , either on a computer or Ipod.


Going outside to enjoy the blue skies and the glory of life - continue typing in the little screen all you like ...

[scott fitlin]

Tell me why would anyone wish to recreate a symphony using electronics ?
Why not try and listen to a symphony as close to the original as possibe.
That means analog. Symphonies don't perform in digital ! Digital is another
stage.

You are only supporting my thesis , many younger people have never visited a symphony , heard an orchestra and if technology continues
will never read a book or newspaper. The only music they are aware of is digital , either on a computer or Ipod.

The reason for the existance of audio was to recreate music as close
to the original as posible not add another stage !Yanni composes serious works, and plays them, by himself using electronics. He is amazing. You aren't!

[Audiobeer]

Even as a sock Puppet he's boring. :( Just curious as to what other forum got tired of his &*()?

[wolfshead]

Yanni composes serious works, and plays them, by himself using electronics. He is amazing. You aren't!
There you go again , I am not what ?
I wonder why I can post many time and not attack or make any reference to anyone and you can't ?

If Yanni is someone you enjoy listening wonderful. I prefer someone who
does not use electronics when performing music. So why the attack and the language .

[wolfshead]

Why would you decide that because we listen to one thing today we would not listen to another tomorrow?

We are not supporting your theory because you continue to be unable to read the words we put on the page - for you its either-or, we continue to embrace MANY possibilities.

Why not listen to a symphony one day and a synthesizer another day?
Why not toscanini today and moondog tomorrow?
Why not Yanni today and Rosemary Clooney tomorrow, or Patsy Cline the next. Why would you EVER set limits yourself when there is so much grand music available?

If you are unable to appreciate that range of music, thats another thing, but you saying it has no value is a personal belief and is not a truth in any sense. It just shows your narrow perspective. It is your right to have a narrow perspective, just as it is our right to tell you it is narrow.




Going outside to enjoy the blue skies and the glory of life - continue typing in the little screen all you like ...
Who are you referring to by "we" who are you speaking for ?
Where did I post that Yanni had no value ?

You are not reading.

[scott fitlin]

There you go again , I am not what ?
I wonder why I can post many time and not attack or make any reference to anyone and you can't ?

If Yanni is someone you enjoy listening wonderful. I prefer someone who
does not use electronics when performing music. So why the attack and the language .What language? No profanity, you just speak as your the last word, I REFUTE your arguments. YOU SAY TODAY, young people haven't heard whatever you think they haven't heard. They hear what they want to, and what they are shown. THERE ARE ARTISTS, symphonies, composers and singers around NOW that are every bit as talented as your favorites were back then.

YOU simply are not an amazing person at delivering knowledge or lack of, IMHO!

Once you began to argue what Harvey Gerst tells us is what happened, and WHY JBL did what they did, and the FACT that your WRONG about George Augspurger and when he worked at JBL, AFAIC, ANY credibility you might have had, went out the window.

[Sam Cogley]

As for as lower end audio , again the difference is in popular music , there is more of a demand in quality when listening to a Sinatra or Gleason recording using an orchestra and needing a large studio than today.

Marketing , not what people want , what people , the change in musical taste began with Elvis , a move away from American traditional music to
low cost production , after all Elvis did not need an orchestra !
Anyone could shake their hips . the lyrics and melody became secondary to the beat. The focus was on the artist not the music . " Hound Dog " What melody?, what lyrics ? is there any melody in rap ?
There are young people today who have not heard an orchestra.
Never listened to audio gear , only Ipods , and computer generated music.

Music and audio has changed !

This is, utterly and completely, crap.

[Maron Horonzakz]

You ever heard of Yanni? Amazing man who uses electronics to create symphonic works!

Yanni CD,s are available!
Scott,,, you could have picked a better composer than YANNI..His works are ""grade school"" at best..... Try Phillip Glass.

[scott fitlin]

Scott,,, you could have picked a better composer than YANNI..His works are ""grade school"" at best..... Try Phillip Glass.I like his music. Glass is good too.

Just a reference point that there are even composers using electronics to make music too.

[hjames]

Scott,,, you could have picked a better composer than YANNI..His works are ""grade school"" at best..... Try Phillip Glass.
Why bother - this sock puppet discounts anyone after Arturo Toscanini. ;)
Why is anyone still talking to this guy -
why is the great gildersleeves here bothering to spend all this time yammering on in this forum -
why is a guy of allegedly 70+ years spending morning, noon and night in an internet chat room ...
Its not a debate - he speaks his mind and dismisses any opinion not from him ... he even dismisses the FACTS.

None of this adds up to anything other than a troll, who is deliberately out to
foment dissent and provoke folks in his little passive aggressive way.

Who would go out of his way to insult Harvey, who is a genuine and dear person
and a friend in these forums. Who will he insult next, Greg Timbers?

Who freaking cares?? This guy is a loser and not worth the time to blow him off the site ...

[wolfshead]

This is, utterly and completely, crap.
YOU HAVE YET TO OFFER A COUNTERPOINT !

[hjames]

YOU HAVE YET TO OFFER A COUNTERPOINT !

Why bother - go stroke your ego somewhere else, pilgrim - just walk away.

[spkrman57]

My best amp is a stereo 300B SET amp (8 wpc).

My next best is my McIntosh MC-240 amp (40 wpc)
I like the MX-110 tuner/preamp also.

I also have this 6V6 PP UL amp using Dynaco SCA-35 trannys. I had this custom built by a friend of mine in Oklahoma.

Tubes require very efficient speakers to do their best reproduction. Also the speakers must be very good at reproduction also as high efficiency speakers don't hide the flaws in the entire audio system.

Tubes have more distortion, less frequency bandwidth extension, but the soundstage is much warmer and less sterile like SS amps are to me.

Just one mans opinion here since the original poster just wanted opinions in the first place.

Regards, Ron

[scott fitlin]

YOU HAVE YET TO OFFER A COUNTERPOINT !He told you what he feels is the truth!

Truthfully, most of your statements are asinine, IMHO, and my honest COUNTERPOINT!

[Sam Cogley]

YOU HAVE YET TO OFFER A COUNTERPOINT !

I don't need to offer a counterpoint against ageism and musical bigotry. Wrong is wrong, one doesn't need to point to "right" to illustrate that.

Personally, I enjoy all types of music from classical to modern pop. And I like to hear all of it on a clear, balanced system. Yes, I have two iPods - but they're used for traveling and other situations where it would be difficult to have a turntable, receiver and a couple of large speakers with me.

[1audiohack]

Counterpoint he'll! I wish someone would hollowpoint this thread!

[wolfshead]

What language? No profanity, you just speak as your the last word, I REFUTE your arguments. YOU SAY TODAY, young people haven't heard whatever you think they haven't heard. They hear what they want to, and what they are shown. THERE ARE ARTISTS, symphonies, composers and singers around NOW that are every bit as talented as your favorites were back then.

YOU simply are not an amazing person at delivering knowledge or lack of, IMHO!

Once you began to argue what Harvey Gerst tells us is what happened, and WHY JBL did what they did, and the FACT that your WRONG about George Augspurger and when he worked at JBL, AFAIC, ANY credibility you might have had, went out the window.
Language #23.
I never posted that Harvey Gerst position on the redesign of the Hartsfield was right or wrong. I only stated I supported the position taken by
Augspurger as to why the Hartsfield was redesigned.

You are not reading !
Again and again please read I only gave my impression of one singer Elvis.
As for as young people , having been involved in high schools with young people for several years.
I found that very few have been exposed to orchestra's few are aware of classical music or jazz. Many have never heard of Rogers , Berlin , Gershwin etc, etc.My experience has led me to believe that many parents are not as involved as they should be with exposing their children to the arts.

Why not just disagree , why all the anger. Are you incapable of offering a position and respecting another one's position.
You have consistenly attack me because I will not agree with you WHY !

I have stated over and over popular music today is different , the reproduction of music today is different. You are not reading my post !
I offer a counterpoint and you start your petty analysis. WHY !

I have said on several occasions we can agree to disagree, it appears with you that is not possible. What is it you want ? :banghead:

[hjames]

Language #23.

I have said on several occasions we can agree to disagree, it appears with you that is not possible. What is it you want ? :banghead:

GO away, troll ....

[scott fitlin]

What is IT I want? You CAME HERE! Looking for some people to explain audio to!

Well, you made a few errors, then proceeded to try to school us even further, despite your own mistakes!

You wanted to engage us, we ENGAGED!

[wolfshead]

I don't need to offer a counterpoint against ageism and musical bigotry. Wrong is wrong, one doesn't need to point to "right" to illustrate that.

Personally, I enjoy all types of music from classical to modern pop. And I like to hear all of it on a clear, balanced system. Yes, I have two iPods - but they're used for traveling and other situations where it would be difficult to have a turntable, receiver and a couple of large speakers with me.
That's much better. be careful of the words right and wrong , just remember those words are subjective.

Music is learned , as is any art. Parents , environment and teachers play
a major part in what music we listen to.

Ipods have their place , the problems is that a generation is growing up that has never listen to the audio that is discussed here.

You are lucky in this day and age to have a balanced audio system.

[wolfshead]

What is IT I want? You CAME HERE! Looking for some people to explain audio to!

Well, you made a few errors, then proceeded to try to school us even further, despite your own mistakes!

You wanted to engage us, we ENGAGED!
Again you are doing an analysis , you don't know what I came here for.
Why don't you ask ?

We all make mistakes , you included ! But we still can agree to disagree.
That it appears you have a problem with.

[hjames]

Again you are doing an analysis , you don't know what I came here for.
Why don't you ask ?


So - why did you come here, Mr Wolf? What is it you seek?

[scott fitlin]

Again you are doing an analysis , you don't know what I came here for.
Why don't you ask ?

We all make mistakes , you included ! But we still can agree to disagree.
That it appears you have a problem with.I don't have a problem with the mistakes, yes, we all make mistakes.

but, continuing on, without even acknowledging your mistakes as mistakes, and then still telling us your right, THIS is the problem.

[Sam Cogley]

That's much better. be careful of the words right and wrong , just remember those words are subjective.
Yes, they are subjective. But I strongly feel that any sort of bias based on non-controllable factors like age, or opinions (i.e. musical taste) to be a very negative thing that causes far more trouble than it solves. Many wars have started over differences of opinion, and complaints about the faults of "the younger generation" have been going on since the days of the ancient Greeks and before.


Music is learned , as is any art. Parents , environment and teachers play a major part in what music we listen to.
To a degree, but people also are capable of expanding beyond those limitations. I grew up listening to what is now called "classic rock" and some old country/western. Since then I've come to embrace classical, jazz, blues, pop and even some rap. In the process I've even introduced my parents to music they hadn't considered before.


Ipods have their place , the problems is that a generation is growing up that has never listen to the audio that is discussed here.

I have to disagree somewhat with the second half of that statement. There have always been low-end sound systems, look at all of the cheaply-made "all in one" systems sold in the 60s through the 80s. How many of those cheap, horrible-sounding ceramic cartridge "record grinder" turntables were sold? High fidelity has always been a niche market, but for a while it occupied the place in the market now held by A/V setups - the desire to stay ahead of the guy next door. During that time, when having a fancy stereo was a form of bragging right, there was more hi-fi gear sold, but I'd wager that true appreciation of quality sound has remained fairly constant.

Also, much of the modern revival of hi-fi gear and the "vinyl revival" is being fueled by the 20/30-something set. Even when I was in college (which in general terms wasn't that long ago, 10-15 years), most of the used vinyl stores I frequented were populated with people under the age of 35.


You are lucky in this day and age to have a balanced audio system.

I've been lucky to come up with some great deals, and I've always had a bit of the Luddite's fascination with the past. That, and a love of tinkering, led me back into the vintage audio world.

[Maron Horonzakz]

GO away, troll ....
Do you see how she addresses her elders..??? Troll or baba yaga is the only name she can come up with...I know Wolfshead background is vast and experienced,,and a defender of the common worker...I will not quibble with Harvey he was there.. and Wolfs memory only goes back as far as Augspurger...Heritage history is a collection from all viewponts,,,When I finally meet Wolf again,,,I will bring this fine gentleman up to date.... But please lets stop this name calling....

[scott fitlin]

Heritage history is a collection from all viewponts,,,Agree

[hjames]

Do you see how she addresses her elders..??? Troll or baba yaga is the only name she can come up with...I know Wolfshead background is vast and experienced,,and a defender of the common worker...I will not quibble with Harvey he was there.. and Wolfs memory only goes back as far as Augspurger...Heritage history is a collection from all viewponts,,,When I finally meet Wolf again,,,I will bring this fine gentleman up to date.... But please lets stop this name calling....

Respect is granted when due, age alone is not the only reason.

All I know is what he claimed - there is no indication he is what he says, an aging gentleman.

His behaviour towards Harvey Gerst leads me to treat him as less than a gentleman.

[JBL 4645]

GO away, troll ....

Agreed. The troll as been feed, enough and its now become tiring.:snore:


So - why did you come here, Mr Wolf? What is it you seek?

I think he’s seeking out this old girl?:D

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=44649&stc=1&d=1267836079

[Maron Horonzakz]

Respect is granted when due, age alone is not the only reason.

All I know is what he claimed - there is no indication he is what he says, an aging gentleman.

His behaviour towards Harvey Gerst leads me to treat him as less than a gentleman.
Harvey can defend himself,,, You can put away your cape. and broom.

[JBL 4645]

Harvey can defend himself,,, You can put away your cape. and broom.

Didn't you know Cat’s have instinct. :D I know a few here are just playing with the new troll…but really its gone on long enough.

http://www.costumzee.com/view/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/catwoman460by300.jpg

[jcrobso]

Just to dispell a few myths, tubes have always been more powerful than solid state ranging from powers in the milliwatt range all the way up to 1 Mega watt plus. Tube amps can also deliver plenty of bottom end. Just for an example, 4 x 211 tubes are capable of pumping out 1000 watts without too much of a problem.

Allan.
Yes, tubes can put out a lot of power I have two 30KW tube FM transmitters.
They are BIG, consume a lot of power just to get them going, require massive cooling. I have to monitor them and make adjustments from time to time and replace the tube every year for a cost of $2200 for a rebuilt tube.

SS transmitters just run, run cooler require all most no maintenance, have a smaller footprint.

If you love your tube amps that is OK by me, I love my tube guitar amp.

[Audiobeer]

Yes, they are subjective. But I strongly feel that any sort of bias based on non-controllable factors like age, or opinions (i.e. musical taste) to be a very negative thing that causes far more trouble than it solves. Many wars have started over differences of opinion, and complaints about the faults of "the younger generation" have been going on since the days of the ancient Greeks and before.


To a degree, but people also are capable of expanding beyond those limitations. I grew up listening to what is now called "classic rock" and some old country/western. Since then I've come to embrace classical, jazz, blues, pop and even some rap. In the process I've even introduced my parents to music they hadn't considered before.



I have to disagree somewhat with the second half of that statement. There have always been low-end sound systems, look at all of the cheaply-made "all in one" systems sold in the 60s through the 80s. How many of those cheap, horrible-sounding ceramic cartridge "record grinder" turntables were sold? High fidelity has always been a niche market, but for a while it occupied the place in the market now held by A/V setups - the desire to stay ahead of the guy next door. During that time, when having a fancy stereo was a form of bragging right, there was more hi-fi gear sold, but I'd wager that true appreciation of quality sound has remained fairly constant.

Also, much of the modern revival of hi-fi gear and the "vinyl revival" is being fueled by the 20/30-something set. Even when I was in college (which in general terms wasn't that long ago, 10-15 years), most of the used vinyl stores I frequented were populated with people under the age of 35.



I've been lucky to come up with some great deals, and I've always had a bit of the Luddite's fascination with the past. That, and a love of tinkering, led me back into the vintage audio world.

Great Post!

[wolfshead]

I don't have a problem with the mistakes, yes, we all make mistakes.

but, continuing on, without even acknowledging your mistakes as mistakes, and then still telling us your right, THIS is the problem.
Again you are not reading ! I never posted that anyting was right or wrong ! Only you did that .
I gave my opinion you can either except them or reject them or you can counter them..
The problem it appears is your inability to read . I have never posted that you were right or wrong ! I have never posted that anyone on this sight was right or wrong. I gave my opinions.
It appears you are having difficulty in excepting the fact that someone
has an opinion that may differ with yours.

[wolfshead]

What is IT I want? You CAME HERE! Looking for some people to explain audio to!

Well, you made a few errors, then proceeded to try to school us even further, despite your own mistakes!

You wanted to engage us, we ENGAGED!
I gave my opinions on audio period ! Schooling you is an analysis. My mistakes prove it ! I posted what I read.

This is not North Korea or Cuba we still have the right granted by the first Amendmen to agree to disagree. You appear judging by your post unable to except that provision in the Constitution.

FREEDOM OF SPEECH ! THE RIGHT TO AGREEE TO DISAGREE ! THE RIGHT OF THE OPPOSING VIEWS !:banghead:

[Allanvh5150]

This is not North Korea or Cuba we still have the right granted by the first Amendmen to agree to disagree. You appear judging by your post unable to except that provision in the Constitution.

You will find that when you push the first amendment you will very quickly end up behind bars. The constitution is a piece of paper that was written on by a bunch of guys at a kegger. It has very little relavence in the world today and the words contained within are quite empty.

Allan.

[Sam Cogley]

You will find that when you push the first amendment you will very quickly end up behind bars. The constitution is a piece of paper that was written on by a bunch of guys at a kegger. It has very little relavence in the world today and the words contained within are quite empty.

Allan.

Bullshit.

[hjames]

You will find that when you push the first amendment you will very quickly end up behind bars. The constitution is a piece of paper that was written on by a bunch of guys at a kegger. It has very little relavence in the world today and the words contained within are quite empty.

Allan.
You don't live around here, do ya?

[JeffW]

I gave my opinions on audio period ! Schooling you is an analysis. My mistakes prove it ! I posted what I read.

This is not North Korea or Cuba we still have the right granted by the first Amendmen to agree to disagree. You appear judging by your post unable to except that provision in the Constitution.

FREEDOM OF SPEECH ! THE RIGHT TO AGREEE TO DISAGREE ! THE RIGHT OF THE OPPOSING VIEWS !:banghead:

The 1st Amendment only says the government won't interfere with free speech, it says nothing about private matters or message boards.

If you come into my home and go off on a rant, I am well within my rights to make you leave. You have no rights to say anything you want in my house, I can chuck you out for insulting my dog. Same thing on a message board, most boards make you acknowledge a user agreement that usually says something along the lines of "if we don't like what you post, we can delete it". And there's nothing the government can do in either case.

Even the government has its limits on what free speech is. Things like yelling Fire! in a theatre or certain types of hate speech will get you crossways with the government, you can't falsely say that you are in law enforcement, any number of instances where it's illegal to say certain things. Try making a joke about carrying a bomb in the security line at the airport and see where the 1st Amendment stands on that issue.

Don't fret, you're not the first person who has confused free speech with the rules of a message board.

[Progneta]

Pretty much. All high power transmitters are still tube. You dont have to worry too much about over heating either.


Here is a link to a rather substantial tube.

http://www.cpii.com/docs/datasheets/78/4CM2500KG-X-2274.pdf

Now a days, usually the final is the only tube... If you want super high power, need a tube final.....usually