wolfshead's Hartsfield

[wolfshead]

Here is an example of one Hartsfield , other photo's will follow later.

[JBL 4645]

Somehow I don’t feel comfortable clicking on it. Last time it took a whole day to load up…!

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:nRl9MwuOh8ttbM:http://www.mamapop.com/mamapop/images/2009/03/23/its_a_trap.jpg

[jcrobso]

Somehow I don’t feel comfortable clicking on it. Last time it took a whole day to load up…!

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:nRl9MwuOh8ttbM:http://www.mamapop.com/mamapop/images/2009/03/23/its_a_trap.jpg
Only took a few seconds to load, can depend a lot on you download speed.

[mwaldron]

It is pretty!

[JBL 4645]

Only took a few seconds to load, can depend a lot on you download speed.

Yeah might be just that I just have a bad experience with Windows word page.:(

[Fred Sanford]

It is pretty!

Absolutely- very nice! Thanks for sharing.

je

[Sam Cogley]

That is one lovely monster. :)

[wolfshead]

The Transcriptor Hydaulic Reference turntabe is British and , appeared in several movies , "Clockwork Orange" one of them.
The platter's base floats in oil, reducing noise and flutter.

The Transcripter can be viewed at The American Museum of Modern Art
New York , The design Moseum London , and the Pinakother Der Modern Muchen , Germany.
The tonearm is a SME With a Shure Cartridge.

[Fred Sanford]

The Transcriptor Hydaulic Reference turntabe is British and , appeared in several movies , "Clockwork Orange" one of them.
The platter's base floats in oil, reducing noise and flutter.

The Transcripter can be viewed at The American Museum of Modern Art
New York , The design Moseum London , and the Pinakother Der Modern Muchen , Germany.
The tonearm is a SME With a Shure Cartridge.

Pic:

[wolfshead]

Marantz 7c preamp , Marantz 10 B tuner, McIntosh 275 power amp inside cabinet , Revox tape
deck and Barzlay 910 equipment cabinet.

[hjames]

More blurry pix of Mr Wolfhead's gear ...
a pity ... remember to always use the right tool for the job -
and don't take photographs with a telephone ...

[wolfshead]

now you need to buy a camera.
I used an Iphone camera . I think you recognized the components.

At one time this might be considered a dream system. All of these components was purchased prior to 1970.
Today many of the components are classic, almost priceless.

The Hartsfield as earlier noted are pre 1957 , which is before Lansing made a change in the horn design to reduce cost.

These are mono speakers not intended for stereo. This became a problem when mounting tweeters , such as the 175 DLH.

[wolfshead]

More blurry pix of Mr Wolfhead's gear ...
Iphone camera's are not perfect , less trouble when sending photo's over the internet.

[Maron Horonzakz]

Some people are never satisfied,,, Yes you do have a great vintage system and well kept,,Now I remember you,,always a smile on your face..Well dressed,,And a true gentileman...The Last time we met was at Bob Shaws, place,,, That turntable looks great,, another unit i saw was owned by Earl Beaver from McDonnell Douglas,,, He also built a JBL Paragon,,useing my blue prints..His electronics at that time was McIntosh..

[BMWCCA]

Iphone camera's are not perfect , less trouble when sending photo's over the internet.

"It's a poor workman who blames his tools."

Why don't you try holding it steady, or go out and buy a superior digital camera made before 1970?

[wolfshead]

"It's a poor workman who blames his tools."

Why don't you try holding it steady, or go out and buy a superior digital camera made before 1970?
I decided to use m my Iphone. I would anytime compare my system with yours. I would bet those two pre 1960's speakers are worth more than your car ! That pre 1970's tuners amps and speakers are more than likely worth more than your house , as a matter of fact I would have less difficulty selling my pre 1970's audio equipment than you selling your house if you live in one !!!:)

[4313B]

I think the general feeling is that these items are a wee bit too interesting to everyone to relegate to Iphone pictures...

That Hartsfield looks fantastic.

[wolfshead]

Some people are never satisfied,,, Yes you do have a great vintage system and well kept,,Now I remember you,,always a smile on your face..Well dressed,,And a true gentileman...The Last time we met was at Bob Shaws, place,,, That turntable looks great,, another unit i saw was owned by Earl Beaver from McDonnell Douglas,,, He also built a JBL Paragon,,useing my blue prints..His electronics at that time was McIntosh..

Earl Beaver helped set up my turntable. Yes Beaver used Mc. amps.
Visited his house several times and listened to his Paragon.
I purchsed the turntable in Chicago with Lloyd Smith , Beaver and Robert Jackson while there I also purchased a Sony TT , andLloyd bought an Audio Research power amp.

I was at the time interested in selling the Hartsfield's this was about 1975.
Beaver found a buyer who offered $25,000 for the pair , against my wife's wishes I decided to keep them , he than asked me to name the price.
Tempted I kept them.

I don't know what happen to Beavers Paragon. He used Mc. Transistor amps. Unexceptable at that time. Mc2100 , and a Mc. c28 pre amp.

,

[cooky1257]

Wolf, that Transcriptors H R is a design classic-who in their right mind would stick it in a wooden box? It's like sticking the Venus de Milo in an overcoat!
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.stefanopasini.it/images/Transcriptors%25202929-2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.stefanopasini.it/Transcriptors_2929-1.htm&h=852&w=1000&sz=153&tbnid=LYEVAqo5jIcfPM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=149&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtranscriptors%2Bhydraulic%2Breference&usg=__UiQe4oACVbiVgYqoqurFN8_nSw4=&ei=yRePS_vKA4Si0gS6ocTgDA&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=4&ct=image&ved=0CBwQ9QEwAw

[scott fitlin]

I decided to use m my Iphone. I would anytime compare my system with yours. I would bet those two pre 1960's speakers are worth more than your car ! That pre 1970's tuners amps and speakers are more than likely worth more than your house , as a matter of fact I would have less difficulty selling my pre 1970's audio equipment than you selling your house if you live in one !!!:)Nice speaker. Nice electronics, the turntable is nice, I prefer a straight arm myself.

Wolf, you will never sell your stuff, you couldn't be happy without it, and you'll never replace it with anything you could like, for any amount of money!

Your heirs, they will reap the benefit of whatever finances these bring them!

:)

[BMWCCA]

I would anytime compare my system with yours. I would bet those two pre 1960's speakers are worth more than your car !That pre 1970's tuners amps and speakers are more than likely worth more than your house , as a matter of fact I would have less difficulty selling my pre 1970's audio equipment than you selling your house if you live in one !!!:)Wolf, you'd love my house—it's pre-'70s! (Actually, it's pre-'50s!)

Wolf, man, you still don't get it. It's not about the value. I have three pre-'60s BMWs that are probably worth more than your speakers. Who gives a crap? They drive like crap, too, compared to modern cars. Their value is because of their rarity, not how well they function. I'm certain your system is worth more than the car I drive, but then that car (an older BMW) gets me to work, to pick up my daughters in NY during the worst snow storm of the decade, and never costs me a dime to repair and will go 100-mph all day long if I ask it to. My house would be easy to sell. We're in one of the highest demographic areas of the country and my home is one of the cheapest on the road with the best schools. Location, location, location! I have six pre-'70s BMW convertibles so I understand both your fascination with antediluvian, Luddite artifacts and your wishful-fantasy trips to another reality concerning their "value" in cold cash. Any of my convertibles are equally as rare as your system. I understand your pride and your obsessive defense of your quaint antiques.

It just does not make them better at producing sound than modern speakers built with equal pride and dedication using today's technology...any more than my old cars could keep up with the cheapest of current BMW designs today. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy them all. And I don't have to stoop to insulting you to make the point.

I can take a good cell-phone photo in the dark if I hold the phone steady enough. If it comes out fuzzy I won't blame the phone. Most folks these days can take fine pictures with a digital camera costing under $200. And you won't hear any pro photographer speaking wistfully and longingly about the early days of digital photography when a 4-MP Canon digital SLR cost more than your Hartsfields and can't match the picture quality of today's 12-MP Canon point-and-shoot.

I love your Hartsfields. I love heritage and tradition. I love old JBLs. That's why I'm on this forum. Why are you here?

:banghead:

[Audiobeer]

Moving air Baby. Moving Air. Anybody got a match? It's better than that 60s Lysol crap. :)

[scott fitlin]

Moving air Baby. Moving Air. Anybody got a match? It's better than that 60s Lysol crap. :)I have a lighter!

Zippo! :)

[wolfshead]

Wolf, that Transcriptors H R is a design classic-who in their right mind would stick it in a wooden box? It's like sticking the Venus de Milo in an overcoat!
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.stefanopasini.it/images/Transcriptors%25202929-2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.stefanopasini.it/Transcriptors_2929-1.htm&h=852&w=1000&sz=153&tbnid=LYEVAqo5jIcfPM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=149&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtranscriptors%2Bhydraulic%2Breference&usg=__UiQe4oACVbiVgYqoqurFN8_nSw4=&ei=yRePS_vKA4Si0gS6ocTgDA&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=4&ct=image&ved=0CBwQ9QEwAw
Barzlay is a beautiful black walnut cabinet of classic design when closed it adds to the decor of a room. It prevents a living room from looking like an
audio shop.

[scott fitlin]

Barzlay is a beautiful black walnut cabinet of classic design when closed it adds to the decor of a room. It prevents a living room from looking like an
audio shop.Yeah, it is, but IF you really play any records, it would be best to remove the cover, altogether.

[wolfshead]

Wolf, you'd love my house—it's pre-'70s! (Actually, it's pre-'50s!)

Wolf, man, you still don't get it. It's not about the value. I have three pre-'60s BMWs that are probably worth more than your speakers. Who gives a crap? They drive like crap, too, compared to modern cars. Their value is because of their rarity, not how well they function. I'm certain your system is worth more than the car I drive, but then that car (an older BMW) gets me to work, to pick up my daughters in NY during the worst snow storm of the decade, and never costs me a dime to repair and will go 100-mph all day long if I ask it to. My house would be easy to sell. We're in one of the highest demographic areas of the country and my home is one of the cheapest on the road with the best schools. Location, location, location! I have six pre-'70s BMW convertibles so I understand both your fascination with antediluvian, Luddite artifacts and your wishful-fantasy trips to another reality concerning their "value" in cold cash. Any of my convertibles are equally as rare as your system. I understand your pride and your obsessive defense of your quaint antiques.

It just does not make them better at producing sound than modern speakers built with equal pride and dedication using today's technology...any more than my old cars could keep up with the cheapest of current BMW designs today. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy them all. And I don't have to stoop to insulting you to make the point.

I can take a good cell-phone photo in the dark if I hold the phone steady enough. If it comes out fuzzy I won't blame the phone. Most folks these days can take fine pictures with a digital camera costing under $200. And you won't hear any pro photographer speaking wistfully and longingly about the early days of digital photography when a 4-MP Canon digital SLR cost more than your Hartsfields and can't match the picture quality of today's 12-MP Canon point-and-shoot.

I love your Hartsfields. I love heritage and tradition. I love old JBLs. That's why I'm on this forum. Why are you here?

:banghead:
Off subject what convertable BMW do you own ? This site discusses JBL
Heritage , The Hartsfield's are the speakers that saved JBL.
I took the time to send a few photo's as requested and fools like you
attacked the quality of the photo's.

If you have these valuable cars why drive them , store them and drive your other cars to work.
By the way I did not take the photo's my daughter did. It appears she wasted her time.

[wolfshead]

Nice speaker. Nice electronics, the turntable is nice, I prefer a straight arm myself.

Wolf, you will never sell your stuff, you couldn't be happy without it, and you'll never replace it with anything you could like, for any amount of money!

Your heirs, they will reap the benefit of whatever finances these bring them!

:)
My wife would rather not have large speakers in her living room.

[wolfshead]

Wolf, that Transcriptors H R is a design classic-who in their right mind would stick it in a wooden box? It's like sticking the Venus de Milo in an overcoat!
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.stefanopasini.it/images/Transcriptors%25202929-2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.stefanopasini.it/Transcriptors_2929-1.htm&h=852&w=1000&sz=153&tbnid=LYEVAqo5jIcfPM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=149&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtranscriptors%2Bhydraulic%2Breference&usg=__UiQe4oACVbiVgYqoqurFN8_nSw4=&ei=yRePS_vKA4Si0gS6ocTgDA&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=4&ct=image&ved=0CBwQ9QEwAw
Are you aware of the beauty of the Barzalay cabinets ? The table is tucked away and when needed , the lid is open and the table is revealed .
A mirror is on the lid to better reveal the table.
An idea in an earlier High Fi Stereo Review decor magazine.

[scott fitlin]

Off subject what convertable BMW do you own ? This site discusses JBL
Heritage , The Hartsfield's are the speakers that saved JBL.
I took the time to send a few photo's as requested and fools like you
attacked the quality of the photo's.

If you have these valuable cars why drive them , store them and drive your other cars to work.
By the way I did not take the photo's my daughter did. It appears she wasted her time.No, your daughter did not waste her time, if you came to speak audio, JBL audio with us and not at us!

Simple as that!

[wolfshead]

Nice speaker. Nice electronics, the turntable is nice, I prefer a straight arm myself.

Wolf, you will never sell your stuff, you couldn't be happy without it, and you'll never replace it with anything you could like, for any amount of money!

Your heirs, they will reap the benefit of whatever finances these bring them!

:)
As a matter of fact , one of my choices was Bozak Concert Grands , Bozak builds a beautiful speaker in a classic design, which would be
an asset in any living room. Of course the speakers are excellent.

Would I sell them today , no , I have had them for over 40 years , their like old friends. :)

[scott fitlin]

Are you aware of the beauty of the Barzalay cabinets ? The table is tucked away and when needed , the lid is open and the table is revealed .
A mirror is on the lid to better reveal the table.
An idea in an earlier High Fi Stereo Review decor magazine.Wolf, but regardless of the beauty of the cabinet, it is still better, to play records with the cover completely removed, IMHO.

No disrespect, but, do you actually listen to music on your system, or is it furniture to look at? I am asking seriously, only because from the way you speak, I am not sure if you use your system, or it is fine furniture.

[scott fitlin]

As a matter of fact , one of my choices was Bozak Concert Grands , Bozak builds a beautiful speaker in a classic design, which would be
an asset in any living room. Of course the speakers are excellent.

Would I sell them today , no , I have had them for over 40 years , their like old friends. :)I have heard rumor the Bozak cabinets had a bit of flex in them. Rumor has it that IF the cabinets flexed, `Ol Rudy knew about it. Musta been a reason.

[wolfshead]

Yeah, it is, but IF you really play any records, it would be best to remove the cover, altogether.

I don't usually play LP'S. I listen to XM and CD's through that system and occasionally to the Revox using the 10 inch reels.

When I listen to a LP it is generally played on my Thorens TT , even than the Thorens is used mainly to help in the converting of LP's to CD's
saving my collection of LP's. The speakers in that system are AR3a's.

When in use I simply lift the lid and play the record. HiFi Fo Fum did an excellent job here in St.Louis of installing the audio equipment in the cabinet. They also refinished the Hartsfields in walnut veneer.

Much like the original owner my wife also is not interested in her living room looking like an audio shop.
I went to a spent time and trouble to see to it that did not happen.
HiFi Stereo Review published examples of the intergration of an audio system into home decor. "The installation of the month". There were
some outstanding examples.

[wolfshead]

I have heard rumor the Bozak cabinets had a bit of flex in them. Rumor has it that IF the cabinets flexed, `Ol Rudy knew about it. Musta been a reason.

Not true Bozak's cabinet construction was outstanding , the equal to any speaker cabinet on the market.
I built a Bozak cabinet from a kit and installed the Lansing 001 speaker
system in it.

Bozak's were outstanding speakers very different from JBL's. Bozak much as Lansing found themselves facing a different market and like many speaker manufactures was either sold or went out of business , few survived.

[scott fitlin]

Now the Thorens is a table I know and like.

Well, to each their own. You have the Harstfield as a decorative addition to your home, I have my systems to listen to music.

We are very different, to you it's all about the financial value of the system, for me, it is how it sounds!

Anyway, good luck, and there's really no need for any more conversation between you and I. enjoy the monetary value and worth of your prizes!

[wolfshead]

fools ? Hey..I think your pix suck too...plse lump me with Phil on this one...since you are apparently a multi-millionaire , a real digital camera is not out of your reach....or provide an address and I'll send one of my old ones...:bouncy:

I am envious of someone who can be so successful with only a 6th grade grammar/spelling ability.
Grow up ! If you don't like the photo's don't look at them. Your language
reflects your etiquette. You can do better than that.

[wolfshead]

Now the Thorens is a table I know and like.

Well, to each their own. You have the Harstfield as a decorative addition to your home, I have my systems to listen to music.

We are very different, to you it's all about the financial value of the system, for me, it is how it sounds!

Anyway, good luck, and there's really no need for any more conversation between you and I. enjoy the monetary value and worth of your prizes!
Again you are doing an analysis. You don't know me well enough to draw that conclusion. Hartsfields are not decorative , Patricians , Imperials , Concert
Grands and Churchills are far more decorative.
I don't have the largest in St.Louis but my record collection is very extensive. My interest is music , my hobby was audio.
Good luck to you ! :)

[Sam Cogley]

Gentleman...can't we all just get along?

[BMWCCA]

Off subject what convertable BMW do you own ? This site discusses JBL Heritage , The Hartsfield's are the speakers that saved JBL.
Since you asked so nicely... ;)

Of my six BMW convertibles, three are convertible models of the car that saved BMW on December 9, 1959. How's that for relevance?

I always figured the D130 was the speaker that saved JBL...

[cooky1257]

Barzlay is a beautiful black walnut cabinet of classic design when closed it adds to the decor of a room. It prevents a living room from looking like an
audio shop.

OK I've resisted thus far but I'll bite...You profess to enjoy/possess an eye for design and quality.
That $5 musical box aesthetic is just naff (Brit slang; unstylish, cheap, cliched, outmoded)
and a travesty imo.

[JBL 4645]

Grow up ! If you don't like the photo's don't look at them. Your language
reflects your etiquette. You can do better than that.


fools ? Hey..I think your pix suck too...plse lump me with Phil on this one...since you are apparently a multi-millionaire , a real digital camera is not out of your reach....or provide an address and I'll send one of my old ones...:bouncy:

I am envious of someone who can be so successful with only a 6th grade grammar/spelling ability.


Gentleman...can't we all just get along?

I think there is certain degree of positive and negative human paranoia going around the boards as of late.

I’m not happy at seeing this its slowly becoming like AVS!:(

I’ve thrown my weight around on a number of occasions not to prod of it now.

Now seawolf97 is going off on one man crusade.

I was wonder is this you Tom?:D

Graphic Video: AC Transit Bus Fight w/ Epic Beard Man
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UaVfeXfbN4&feature=related

AC TRANSIT BUS FIGHT (the clip you didnt see)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5fnjFVPCek
EPIC BEARD MAN TOMMY SLICK TOM BRUSO THOMAS ALEXANDER BRUSO AC TRANSIT BUS FIGHT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0aB4AnKq1s

Please calm down, calm down.

[hjames]

Now seawolf97 is going off on one man crusade.

I was wonder is this you Tom?:D

Graphic Video: AC Transit Bus Fight w/ Epic Beard Man
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UaVfeXfbN4&feature=related

AC TRANSIT BUS FIGHT (the clip you didnt see)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5fnjFVPCek
EPIC BEARD MAN TOMMY SLICK TOM BRUSO THOMAS ALEXANDER BRUSO AC TRANSIT BUS FIGHT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0aB4AnKq1s

Please calm down, calm down.
Puhlease - no doubt that bearded guy is the wrong part of town, if not the wrong part of the country ...
Its not at ALL Tom's style ...
he rides bicycles, not buses, remember?

[Maron Horonzakz]

I have heard rumor the Bozak cabinets had a bit of flex in them. Rumor has it that IF the cabinets flexed, `Ol Rudy knew about it. Musta been a reason.
If any one else has a copy of SPEAKER ENCLOSURES by Alexis Badmaieff and Don Davis,,Shows seven photos supplied by R.T. Bozak Mfg. Co. showing construstion and stiffener and cross bracing plus sound-damping. Also R. Bozak made his own cones for his woofers, JBL outsourced the cones.

[JBL 4645]

Puhlease - no doubt that bearded guy is the wrong part of town, if not the wrong part of the country ...
Its not at ALL Tom's style ...
he rides bicycles, not buses, remember?

LOL I thought he was mode for all transports?:D
Still that, kinder shows the way society has been modelled into this now cultural behaviour where we lash out and attack.:(

It doesn’t have to be this way. There is still hope for a turn-around.:)

[wolfshead]

OK I've resisted thus far but I'll bite...You profess to enjoy/possess an eye for design and quality.
That $5 musical box aesthetic is just naff (Brit slang; unstylish, cheap, cliched, outmoded)
and a travesty imo.
Some speaker systems were well done using fine premium woods in various decor. The dog chewed up my 1964 JBL catalog , which listed JBL speakers in different decorative styles.

I do have my 1964 Bozak catalog. An example one could purchase Bozak speakers designed in Moorish , Century , Classic , and Modern , with equipment cabinet to match . All in premium woods.

JBL also did the same in their listings. There were cabinet makers such as
Brazilay which offered fine furniture to compliment speakers in many different designs to suit one's personal taste.

The cabinets were far from cheap and was an asset in anyone's living room. As for as outmoded , due to the cost of premium woods today it just isn't practical , example an inexpensive AR4ax was finished in oiled
walnut veneer price $79.00 ! impossible today due to the price of premium
woods.

[JBL 4645]

Some speaker systems were well done using fine premium woods in various decor. The dog chewed up my 1964 JBL catalog , which listed JBL speakers in different decorative styles.


Well I guess this is what happens when you, don’t feed the dog! :D

I like to keep old catalogues around for reference and just browsing though now and then.

[cooky1257]

So

The cabinets were far from cheap and was an asset in anyone's living room. As for as outmoded , due to the cost of premium woods today it just isn't practical , example an inexpensive AR4ax was finished in oiled
walnut veneer price $79.00 ! impossible today due to the price of premium
woods.

Ho ho!
I was referring to the mirrored lid over your turntable, The Hartsfields are beautiful.

[wolfshead]

Ho ho!
I was referring to the mirrored lid over your turntable, The Hartsfields are beautiful.

I pointed out in my previous post , the mirrow was an example of the same cabinet displayed in a HI-Fi Stereo Review installation using a mirrow attached to the lid to better display the turntable.

It does an excellent job of displaying a very beautiful turntable . The table was located in the cabinet on a separate shelf, when not in use the lid being closed displayed a beautiful piece of furnture.

Hi-Fi Stereo Riview at one time published a separate magazine displaying different audio installations through out the country.
Here in St.Louis Lloyd Smith's audio system was displayed as the "Installation of the Month "
His speakers were Classic Bozak Concert Grands recessed in a wall in his living room.
There were several installations of JBL's featuring JBL Delphi Equipment cabinets with
matching Sovereign speakers. The Paragon was featured many times with
a number of differernt ideas in decor.:)

[Maron Horonzakz]

Yes the JBL Delphi equipment cabinet had 3 flip up lids.. and a space for a TT,, Preamp and tuner faced up,, Good design,, John Marshal had one on display,,Sold in one week,,i think it sold to Earl Heller..He had a pair of Olympus matching speakers..

[SEAWOLF97]

Its not at ALL Tom's style ...
he rides bicycles, not buses, remember?

Heather speaks the truth.....although I have a BMW540i and newish truck, riding bike is preferred as it is therapy on my nasty ankle. The only other non-destructive exercise for the injury is swimming.

BUT , once I started riding again, it became addictive..it also keeps my weight down and helps the recently stented cardio system.

Because Portland is a very green city, biking is very popular and "IN"

__________________________________________________ __

funny how every thread wolf shead starts turns into the same thing ??

[wolfshead]

Heather speaks the truth.....although I have a BMW540i and newish truck, riding bike is preferred as it is therapy on my nasty ankle. The only other non-destructive exercise for the injury is swimming.

BUT , once I started riding again, it became addictive..it also keeps my weight down and helps the recently stented cardio system.

Because Portland is a very green city, biking is very popular and "IN"
Mr. Seawolf we do have something in common , my wife drives a BMW545
and I attended elementary school in Portland , Holiday I think , back in 1946. I also ride a bike , both inside and outside.
I assume there still is the Rose Parade. Portland is a beautiful city , I have several cousins living there. Small world .:)

[SEAWOLF97]

and I attended elementary school in Portland , Holiday I think , back in 1946. I also ride a bike , both inside and outside.
I assume there still is the Rose Parade. Portland is a beautiful city , I have several cousins living there. Small world .:)

I grew up in Santa Barbara, but left for the Navy in '68...when they released me in '72 , I moved to Portland...been here ever since.

there are at least 9 thrift stores within my bike riding radius, and I'm trying to rebuild my vinyl collection ....so a 7-10 mile "Tour de Thrifts" with a lunch thrown is an enjoyable day for a long retired geezer.

The reason that I'm critical of bad photography is that I've been immersed in production for years....Had a darkroom in HS and was photo-chief for school paper & yearbook , then as "combat camera" for the Navy and still shoot extensively for personal pleasure..most any camera/phone can do OK in the hands of someone who cares about picture quality.

[JBL 4645]

Mr. Seawolf we do have something in common , my wife drives a BMW545
and I attended elementary school in Portland , Holiday I think , back in 1946. I also ride a bike , both inside and outside.
I assume there still is the Rose Parade. Portland is a beautiful city , I have several cousins living there. Small world .:)

Round 5! :D

[Sam Cogley]

I'm straddling the vintage and modern camps...I drive a BMW convertible, but it's a '92 318i. :D

[4313B]

funny how every thread wolf shead starts turns into the same thing ??I've not been paying that much attention. I guess I'm slacking. :rotfl:

IHi-Fi Stereo Riview at one time published a separate magazine displaying different audio installations through out the country. Here in St.Louis Lloyd Smith's audio system was displayed as the "Installation of the Month "
His speakers were Classic Bozak Concert Grands recessed in a wall in his living room.I did an installation once where I built a pair of Concert Grands and a pair of 4343's into a wall along with a projection screen and all the audio/video gear. It was quite interesting.

[SEAWOLF97]

Originally Posted by cooky1257 http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=280806#post280806)
Is there any posibilty you could refrain from loading every post with infantile emoticons and movie stills? FFS Ashley you're British! show some restraint

Is there something stronger than just IGNORE ???
So you can't see that they've even posted ?

[JBL 4645]

__________________________________________________ __

[/I]funny how every thread wolf shead starts turns into the same thing ??

Kinder like Thing Dog in The Thing huh.:D

http://www.best-horror-movies.com/image-files/the-thing-dog-monster.jpg



[/I]Is there something stronger than just IGNORE ???
So you can't see that they've even posted ?

Try these! Take 10 and you'll be knocked out for the rest of the night!:D

[Bladerunner]

Its great to see my Late Fathers Turntable still in use today ! Its just got a place in a major exhibit at MoMA New York .

I was given the same name as my Father David Gammon,I love this web site and visit often.

:)

[sheltiedave]

I rarely post here, but I hope some people would be a little more polite about harrassing folks, especially newbies and people who are justifiably proud of nice setups.

Picking on Wolfshead because he uses a phone camera? Give me a break:bs:
He has the gear, he earned the money and bought it the hard way, new, back in the day, and he worked his ass off to keep it all these years.

Sometimes the old folks bruise a few egos and step on toes, but they also lived and experienced stuff we can only dream about, and they may not be the most delicate when they write. I enjoy hearing Wolfshead just as much as Harvey. In a few years more than half of their remaining generation will be gone, so I'd rather listen with muted respect than antagonize and fight to prove you are a righter and smarter person. My two cents worth.

[SEAWOLF97]

He has the gear, he earned the money and bought it the hard way, new, back in the day, and he worked his ass off to keep it all these years.

hhmmm, thats not what wolfshead himself says:

Originally Posted by wolfshead http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=280751#post280751)
I was able to purchase my hartsfield because the original owner's wife was redecorating her house and the Hartsfield had to go including his McIntosh , amps and Thorens tt.
I bought all of his hi-fi equipment for less than $1500 ! little did he know.
But than he was quite wealthy and really didn't need the money.
I sold the Mac's and the TT.

[scott fitlin]

I rarely post here, but I hope some people would be a little more polite about harrassing folks, especially newbies and people who are justifiably proud of nice setups.

Picking on Wolfshead because he uses a phone camera? Give me a break:bs:
He has the gear, he earned the money and bought it the hard way, new, back in the day, and he worked his ass off to keep it all these years.

Sometimes the old folks bruise a few egos and step on toes, but they also lived and experienced stuff we can only dream about, and they may not be the most delicate when they write. I enjoy hearing Wolfshead just as much as Harvey. In a few years more than half of their remaining generation will be gone, so I'd rather listen with muted respect than antagonize and fight to prove you are a righter and smarter person. My two cents worth.Post #222, page 15 in the 'west coast vs east coast sound' thread, Wolf states he bought everything for $1500, and the guy was rich and really didn't need the money, anyway.

Go read it for yourself!

[sheltiedave]

So that means you can rip him all you want, Seawolf? I apologize I did not keep score of everything, but ganging up to attack a 70 something year old on a forum, when he is brutally truthful and outspoken in his beliefs, doesn't reflect on his character.

I know more than a few old codgers that love to upset the apple cart. I've even met a few who sold apples off the apple cart.

Come to think of it, if I had a pair of Hartsfields, a Transcriptor TT, a Marantz 7C, 10B, a Mac MC275, and a Revox A77(I do hope this is right;)) that would be my primary system - no matter what I had.

[scott fitlin]

So that means you can rip him all you want, Seawolf? I apologize I did not keep score of everything, but ganging up to attack a 70 something year old on a forum, when he is brutally truthful and outspoken in his beliefs, doesn't reflect on his character.

I know more than a few old codgers that love to upset the apple cart. I've even met a few who sold apples off the apple cart.

Come to think of it, if I had a pair of Hartsfields, a Transcriptor TT, a Marantz 7C, 10B, a Mac MC275, and a Revox A77(I do hope this is right;)) that would be my primary system - no matter what I had.WE try to be nice, and talk audio with him. He asks a question, we answer, he then tells us why WE ARE ALL wrong. And WHY ONLY HE is right. Conversation? No, more like he tries to give a didactic lecture.

It's nice speakers from a wonderful era in time, YES! Are they superior to anything we can and do make today? No.

We do not know his age, only that he speaks in a condescending manner to us!

Oh, and FWIW, constant statements about what the monetary worth and value of your possessions are, doesn't usually win friends, not here or anywhere.

Ya know?

[scott fitlin]

Not only that! I closed his first thread on this forum. I closed his second thread, and IF THIS THREAD becomes too much, I will close this one too!

And, believe it or not, More than 1 had asked his that threads to be closed, previously. Not because of what he speaks on audio, and what he feels is the best, only because of his demeanor and attitude.

ANYBODY is welcome on this forum, to talk audio, share what they have, like, don't like, want, believe in, etc!

But, if what you enjoy doing is antagonizing, and causing conflamadrama, :dont-know

[BMWCCA]

:bs:
He has the gear, he earned the money and bought it the hard way, new, back in the day, and he worked his ass off to keep it all these years.


Another voice from Saint Lousy that just doesn't get it. :banghead:

I'm now embarrassed by the locale of my heritage!

1145 Hampton Park Drive. Fritz Marx house, constructed c. 1937. The house is L-shaped, with
an octagonal tower at an angle forming the entry band. It also has a semi-octagonal termination
of the south wing. The front door is segmental-arched with a wide ashlar surround. The
projecting right wing has a curving first-floor bay window. The left wing has grouped windows
with decorative brick spandrels arranged in diamond patterns. Many of the casement windows
have transoms.

...and it's older than Wolfie's Hartsfields! :applaud:

[wolfshead]

WE try to be nice, and talk audio with him. He asks a question, we answer, he then tells us why WE ARE ALL wrong. And WHY ONLY HE is right. Conversation? No, more like he tries to give a didactic lecture.

It's nice speakers from a wonderful era in time, YES! Are they superior to anything we can and do make today? No.

We do not know his age, only that he speaks in a condescending manner to us!

Oh, and FWIW, constant statements about what the monetary worth and value of your possessions are, doesn't usually win friends, not here or anywhere.

Ya know?
It appears sir that you don't understand the meaning of counterpoint !
There is no need to agree or disagree but to offer a counterpoint.
It is you who many times has used the subjective terms " right and wrong " not I.

I have never in any of my post referred to my speakers as superior or my audio system as superior to anything !
I have never stated that anyone was right or wrong , only you has referred to right or wrong.

I have referred to the cost of items because it reflex's in many cases why
many audio manufactures either sold their company or went out of business.

I have stated many times that the pre1970 speakers were different and that music was different.

Go back and revisit my post and you will find it is "YOU" and your amateur
analysis that was the issue. I have tried to ignore your analysis .

Finally "We are all wrong " How did you draw that conclusion ? when did I post that ? I counterd yours and others point. I repeatly posted that I disagreed with you and others but respected yours and others opinions !


This I thought was a forum in which different views were expressed ,
the subject audio ,JBL products the items.
It appears I was wrong , very wrong !

[scott fitlin]

For a 70 something year old, you got some spunk, though! I give you this!

Wolf, don't you have some foxy 66 year old foxy ladies to converse and party with? Gotta be a lot more fun than coming after me, dude! Especially now that WE have viagra, I mean Pre '70,s, well, ya know!

:D

[JBL 4645]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=44572&stc=1&d=1267483146

Something has been bothering me days now. It’s the quality of the picture as if I’ve seen this somewhere else before, but can’t quite place where, and the ornament?

[scott fitlin]

What do you mean, 4645? Are you trying to say that the picture Wolf uses looks like it was lifted from elsewhere?

Have you checked OUR library to make sure it isn't one that came from there?

[JBL 4645]

What do you mean, 4645? Are you trying to say that the picture Wolf uses looks like it was lifted from elsewhere?

Have you checked OUR library to make sure it isn't one that came from there?
scotty
More or less yes why otherwise would I say that? How about a few more pictures to prove I’m a total ass of total paranoia. :p LOL wolf get in the picture with them. I’ve often got in the picture on mine, no shame if you’re a bit overweight like I am.:D

I’m looking though Google image as I have seen that ornament before somewhere?

[scott fitlin]

scotty
More or less yes why otherwise would I say that? How about a few more pictures to prove I’m a total ass of total paranoia. :p LOL wolf get in the picture with them. I’ve often got in the picture on mine, no shame if you’re a bit overweight like I am.:DI say, the lad is on to something here!

Hey Wolf, how 'bout a picture of YOU standing proudly besides your classic Hartsfield?

:thmbsup:

[wolfshead]

For a 70 something year old, you got some spunk, though! I give you this!

Wolf, don't you have some foxy 66 year old foxy ladies to converse and party with? Gotta be a lot more fun than coming after me, dude! Especially now that WE have viagra, I mean Pre '70,s, well, ya know!

:D
I responded your your post. That sir is what is referred to as a counterpoint ! As for as your reply to my counterpoint I will let it stand.

The issue as I see it is audio , lansing Heritage , not you and I. My post or directed toward the entire forum. When I respond to a post it is not just to that pont but to the entire forum.

I thought I could share with others on this forum my hobby , audio.
The questions I asked was questions that had been asked and discussed
for years, there really is not any correct answers.

But opinions , shared opinions. Example which do you prefer transistors or tubes ? an age old discussion. Not right or wrong. One offers their point and than others counterpoints.
We can agree to disagree.:)

[scott fitlin]

I responded your your post. That sir is what is referred to as a counterpoint ! As for as your reply to my counterpoint I will let it stand.

The issue as I see it is audio , lansing Heritage , not you and I. My post or directed toward the entire forum. When I respond to a post it is not just to that pont but to the entire forum.

I thought I could share with others on this forum my hobby , audio.
The questions I asked was questions that had been asked and discussed
for years, there really is not any correct answers.

But opinions , shared opinions. Example which do you prefer transistors or tubes ? an age old discussion. Not right or wrong. One offers their point and than others counterpoints.
We can agree to disagree.:)YOU CAN SHARE YOUR VIEWS AND BELIEFS AUDIO HERE WOLFIE!

Tubes vs transistors, I will get in that one, I have some definite opinion about that too. Some of my views mirror yours, and some don't.

But, lets keep the tubes and transistors in that thread, ok! Now, what about a picture of you and your Hartsfield?

[wolfshead]

YOU CAN SHARE YOUR VIEWS AND BELIEFS AUDIO HERE WOLFIE!

Tubes vs transistors, I will get in that one, I have some definite opinion about that too. Some of my views mirror yours, and some don't.

But, lets keep the tubes and transistors in that thread, ok! Now, what about a picture of you and your Hartsfield?
What are you interested in style or fashion in dresswhen posing ? After all this is a Lansing forum. Some of the forum members will be attending an audio get together in a week or two in St.Louis , I have been invited. it should prove interesting.

[scott fitlin]

What are you interested in style or fashion in dresswhen posing ? After all this is a Lansing forum. Some of the forum members will be attending an audio get together in a week or two in St.Louis , I have been invited. it should prove interesting.I dress slick, but not flashy. I wear a lot of black clothing, and also bright colors, too, but well coordinated. I wear earrings, both ears, more than 1 hoop per ear, have a well groomed appearance but in todays fashion. I do happen to like and have many, Italian crew neck cashmere pullover sweaters.

I can't make it to St. louis, have work to complete, and begin my operating season!

[JBL 4645]

What’s wrong with picture right now? I can take 10 pictures of me and my wacky cat sat next to my vintage plasticity JBL control 5 in less than 1 hour.:p

[scott fitlin]

What’s wrong with picture right now? I can take 10 pictures of me and my wacky cat sat next to my vintage plasticity JBL control 5 in less than 1 hour.:pMaybe he doesn't want to!

[JBL 4645]

Maybe he doesn't want to!

I know I’m kinder getting a bit bloated myself, it’s all those sausage-rolls, I keep eating.:D

[wolfshead]

I dress slick, but not flashy. I wear a lot of black clothing, and also bright colors, too, but well coordinated. I wear earrings, both ears, more than 1 hoop per ear, have a well groomed appearance but in todays fashion. I do happen to like and have many, Italian crew neck cashmere pullover sweaters.

I can't make it to St. louis, have work to complete, and begin my operating season!
My clothing is conservative , as is my taste in cars , music , art etc.

I am into stye not fashion. Italian in shoes, suits, American and British,
shirts , American, Italian and British , Colors Blue , gray , summer lighter colors. Sweaters some turtleneck cashmere and some wool.
Name brands : Oxxford , Brioni , Kiton , Turnbull & Asser , Burberry , Zegna , RL purple label , Ferragamo , Church , Testoni etc..

No earings or facial hair. Cary Grant was my clothing idol , today
James Bond.
You see we can agree to disagree in clothing.

[JBL 4645]

I like turtleneck long sleeve shirts in black! :p

You know they actually serve turtle soup in Florida, now how crawl is that. To think I sipped on turtle soup back around 1981 poor creatures.:(

[hjames]

I know I’m kinder getting a bit bloated myself, it’s all those sausage-rolls, I keep eating.:D
Sausage rolls pooh! - I bet its all those chocolaty cupcakes you been waving around!!!

[JBL 4645]

Sausage rolls pooh! - I bet its all those chocolaty cupcakes you been waving around!!!

I confess. :o: I have been tucking into them but not in greedy scoffing way, like in less than 20 minutes. They arrived yesterday and I’ve only had 4. I’ll have a few more tomorrow I’d only like to share them with the so and so who sent them? :)

[hjames]

I confess. :o: I have been tucking into them but not in greedy scoffing way, like in less than 20 minutes. They arrived yesterday and I’ve only had 4. I’ll have a few more tomorrow I’d only like to share them with the so and so who sent them? :)

Not me - Cool as they are, I have no idea what you are talking about -
Besides, I am evil, right? ... he he he - must be the other coast!
or maybe someone North, or someone in the middle - its a big world out there!

[scott fitlin]

I like turtleneck long sleeve shirts in black! :p

You know they actually serve turtle soup in Florida, now how crawl is that. To think I sipped on turtle soup back around 1981 poor creatures.:(Turtle soup is great at Commanders Palace in New Orleans, at least before Hurricane Katrina.

And Corn Fried Oysters in mayonaise sauce, too!

[scott fitlin]

My clothing is conservative , as is my taste in cars , music , art etc.

I am into stye not fashion. Italian in shoes, suits, American and British,
shirts , American, Italian and British , Colors Blue , gray , summer lighter colors. Sweaters some turtleneck cashmere and some wool.
Name brands : Oxxford , Brioni , Kiton , Turnbull & Asser , Burberry , Zegna , RL purple label , Ferragamo , Church , Testoni etc..

No earings or facial hair. Cary Grant was my clothing idol , today
James Bond.
You see we can agree to disagree in clothing.you don't have to dress or style as I do. Your not me. Individuality, that is style to me

[JBL 4645]

Not me - Cool as they are, I have no idea what you are talking about -
Besides, I am evil, right? ... he he he - must be the other coast!
or maybe someone North, or someone in the middle - its a big world out there!

Well who ever it was nice thought.


Turtle soup is great at Commanders Palace in New Orleans, at least before Hurricane Katrina.

And Corn Fried Oysters in mayonaise sauce, too!

Wow that sounds tasty temptingly delicious dipped in mayo.:)

[scott fitlin]

Commanders Palace makes a rack of lamb with a mint madeira demi glace is excellent too!

Stop at a raw bar in N.O. for some oysters on the half shell, and crawdad too!

[JBL 4645]

Commanders Palace makes a rack of lamb with a mint madeira demi glace is excellent too!

Stop at a raw bar in N.O. for some oysters on the half shell, and crawdad too!

Don’t mean you crab? Have you been drinking tonight? LOL:D

[scott fitlin]

Crawfish!

I don't drink. :)

[hjames]

Crawfish!

I don't drink. :)
Is like teeny tiny lobster ...
...
bite they little heads off, nibble they tiny feet

[scott fitlin]

Is like teeny tiny lobster ...
...
bite they little heads off, nibble they tiny feetOh, now I'm in the mood to cook some Gumbo this weekend. :applaud:

[Harvey Gerst]

I would like to offer a suggestion and make one small correction:

The suggestion: There is a free app for the iPhone called "Tripod". It doesn't take the picture until the iPhone camera is steady. Cleans up camera shake easily.

The correction: When the coffin back Hartsfield was designed, it wasn't to "make it cheaper"; it was to improve the bottom end response, and not kill the knuckles of the guy (usually me) trying to wrestle a 150-4C into the stupid angled opening on the old Hartsfield. As I recall, it was Bart Locanthi and Bill Burton that came up with the new horn design when we were on Fletcher Drive.

[SEAWOLF97]

Hey Wolf, how 'bout a picture of YOU standing proudly besides your classic Hartsfield?

:thmbsup:

I think Google found it :applaud: (and in focus this time)

[hjames]

C'mon, even I can tell that's Walt Disney - and besides, he can't be Wolfshead -
we all know Uncle Walt is cryo-frozen deep in the Epcott center -
that was the whole reason for DisneyWorld in FLA - to be sure Uncle Walt's frozen body
is safe through any natural disaster like earthquakes, even if Cali-fornia slides into the sea ...


I think Google found it :applaud: (and in focus this time)
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=44650&stc=1&d=1267836431

[scott fitlin]

I would like to offer a suggestion and make one small correction:

The suggestion: There is a free app for the iPhone called "Tripod". It doesn't take the picture until the iPhone camera is steady. Cleans up camera shake easily.

The correction: When the coffin back Hartsfield was designed, it wasn't to "make it cheaper"; it was to improve the bottom end response, and not kill the knuckles of the guy (usually me) trying to wrestle a 150-4C into the stupid angled opening on the old Hartsfield. As I recall, it was Bart Locanthi and Bill Burton that came up with the new horn design when we were on Fletcher Drive.OK, from the man himself. :D

[wolfshead]

In 1959, there was a significant redesign of the bass horn in the Hartsfield. The stated purpose was to simplify the horn path to result in a smoother response. However , it was likely that the greater motivation was monetary since the redesign resulted in a simplified construction that significantly reduced the manufacting cost.

Nonetheless , the success and impact of the Hartsfield to JBL cannot be overstated. It was the speaker that gave the company national recognition. It was in large part responsible for the sales increase that would average over 50% a year for the next three years.

I have listened to the old as well as the redesigned Hartsfield , there is slight difference in response and smoothness in the bass region.
The older one has the edge. The older one is the most sought after.

The older Hartsfield only came in two wood veneers blond and mahogany.
The same grill cloth was used in both with a slight difference in the shade of the lenses on the horns , the blond one slightly lighter.

Having purchased a blond and mahogany unit I had them both redone
in walnut , by Hi-Fi Fo Fum in St.Louis who did an excellent job of refinishing. Tweeters were added later , first the 075 than the 175DLH.

As pointed out Hartsfields was designed for mono reproduction not stereo , one in a room takes full advantage of the walls and corner placement, two would need
a stadium or very large motion picture hall , such as " The Fox Theatre "
here in St.Louis , one of the old movie palaces.

[scott fitlin]

In 1959, there was a significant redesign of the bass horn in the Hartsfield. The stated purpose was to simplify the horn path to result in a smoother response. However , it was likely that the greater motivation was monetary since the redesign resulted in a simplified construction that significantly reduced the manufacting cost.

Nonetheless , the success and impact of the Hartsfield to JBL cannot be overstated. It was the speaker that gave the company national recognition. It was in large part responsible for the sales increase that would average over 50% a year for the next three years.

I have listened to the old as well as the redesigned Hartsfield , there is slight difference in response and smoothness in the bass region.
The older one has the edge. The older one is the most sought after.

The older Hartsfield only came in two wood veneers blond and mahogany.
The same grill cloth was used in both with a slight difference in the shade of the lenses on the horns , the blond one slightly lighter.

Having purchased a blond and mahogany unit I had them both redone
in walnut , by Hi-Fi Fo Fum in St.Louis who did an excellent job of refinishing. Tweeters were added later , first the 075 than the 175DLH.

As pointed out Hartsfields was designed for mono reproduction not stereo , one in a room takes full advantage of the walls and corner placement, two would need
a stadium or very large motion picture hall , such as " The Fox Theatre "
here in St.Louis , one of the old movie palaces.You posted a picture of your Hartsfield, and I cannot see where the tweeter is. You must still use it if you listen to the system, I would think. Especially since you state you listen to CD, the lens horn alone just doesn't go up high enough.

Wolf, your friend Sheltie comes and sticks up for you, and, your going to tell Harvey Gerst, who probably loaded the cabinets you have, WHY JBL did what they did, when he has told you otherwise, and then you wonder why you get the responses you do! Rather than say this is your opinion!

70 something or not, you understand exactly what you say, and you are not the LAST word on the subject, even IF you do own two Hartsfield speakers.

The older cabinets value and demand is also because it is significantly rarer than the later version.

[scott fitlin]

Companies do in fact make change, and update their products, and designs, too.

Have you ever read the disclaimer on the bottom of many spec sheets or packaging? "Products Subject To Change Without Notice".

[lansingfan]

Wolfshead said:
It is you who many times has used the subjective terms " right and wrong " not I. Right and wrong can be objective term. The 'right' driver, the 'wrong' driver. Get the idea?

[sheltiedave]

Scott, before you presume too much, I have never been introduced to Wolfshead, though I am looking forward to it in a couple weeks. I'm sure we will be good friends after we meet - common stereo interests and a fascination with vintage JBL speakers, tube gear, and vintage furniture aid the process rather well. Wolfshead also palled around in the same loose group of stereo confederates that one of my mentors did about the stereo shops in town.

At some point, if I make it up to WH's house, I'll stand our seven year old in front of one of his Hartsfields holding a dated St. Louis Post Disgrace paper, so you doubting Thomas folks can pick something else apart of his. Maybe I'll hang his Social Security card, school ID, and birth certificate around his neck so y'all know it's really him.;)

Before that time, I'll keep busy reading about the fights between the Crown 500 wpc SS fan club and the SET 45 amp crowd, using hi efficiency speakers, over in FightClub.

[wolfshead]

You posted a picture of your Hartsfield, and I cannot see where the tweeter is. You must still use it if you listen to the system, I would think. Especially since you state you listen to CD, the lens horn alone just doesn't go up high enough.

Wolf, your friend Sheltie comes and sticks up for you, and, your going to tell Harvey Gerst, who probably loaded the cabinets you have, WHY JBL did what they did, when he has told you otherwise, and then you wonder why you get the responses you do! Rather than say this is your opinion!

70 something or not, you understand exactly what you say, and you are not the LAST word on the subject, even IF you do own two Hartsfield speakers.

The older cabinets value and demand is also because it is significantly rarer than the later version.

I offered my counterpoint ! Was Harvey Gerst a major decision maker at Lansing ? Even than the information I recieved was from George L. Augspurger , in a 1960 reprint from Electronic World.

Counterpoint: A contrasing but parallel element. Counter : Opposing ,one that is counter , an opposite ,a contary.

Again why would you post that what I posed was the last word, my posting was a counterpoint.
You have no idea how old I am, even if you did know what does that have to do with this issue ?

I have posted many times that I use a 175DLH for the high end. The 175DLH is located on the left side of both speakers behind the grill cloth.
Why is there a need to see them ? There was not an area designed for a tweeter in the older Hartsfields. As a result the 175DLH'S are both placed on the left side , no space on the right side.

Harvey Gerst is correct it is very difficult to reach the woofers in the older models. Much easier in the later one's.

[wolfshead]

Wolfshead said:Right and wrong can be objective term. The 'right' driver, the 'wrong' driver. Get the idea?
He used the term to depict morality not right or left ! Morality is subjective !:banghead:

[lansingfan]

He used the term to depict morality not right or left ! Morality is subjective !:banghead:

Give me an example of your morality.

[wolfshead]

Give me an example of your morality.
My morality is none of your business ! Lansing is the subject. Audio !

[wolfshead]

Companies do in fact make change, and update their products, and designs, too.

Have you ever read the disclaimer on the bottom of many spec sheets or packaging? "Products Subject To Change Without Notice".
A disclaimer was not necessary 50 years ago ! JBL was a very small company in 1958. The audio componant industry was very small.

The audio componant industry was generally confined to hobbist , audiophiles . The introdution of stereo and the transistor was a great help in expanding the market to the non-hobbist public.

[lansingfan]

My morality is none of your business ! Lansing is the subject. Audio !

Maybe what you are saying is, there is no morality.

[Sam Cogley]

I'm fairly sure this thread needs to be read with a significant dose of caffeine and alcohol. I've had neither yet today. :blink:

[scott fitlin]

I'm fairly sure this thread needs to be read with a significant dose of caffeine and alcohol. I've had neither yet today. :blink:If you say so. I'm having coffee right now, :D

[scott fitlin]

Scott, before you presume too much, I have never been introduced to Wolfshead, though I am looking forward to it in a couple weeks. I'm sure we will be good friends after we meet - common stereo interests and a fascination with vintage JBL speakers, tube gear, and vintage furniture aid the process rather well. Wolfshead also palled around in the same loose group of stereo confederates that one of my mentors did about the stereo shops in town.

At some point, if I make it up to WH's house, I'll stand our seven year old in front of one of his Hartsfields holding a dated St. Louis Post Disgrace paper, so you doubting Thomas folks can pick something else apart of his. Maybe I'll hang his Social Security card, school ID, and birth certificate around his neck so y'all know it's really him.;)

Before that time, I'll keep busy reading about the fights between the Crown 500 wpc SS fan club and the SET 45 amp crowd, using hi efficiency speakers, over in FightClub.Knock yourself out! :D

[Harvey Gerst]

First of all, George Augspurger wasn't even there during the change over from Bill Hartstfield's original design to Bart Locanthi and Bill Burton's newer horn design. It took place on Fletcher Drive, not on Casitas. George didn't come to work for JBL until after we moved to Casitas.

Yes, one reason was to make it simpler to build, but I think the overriding reason was that the original Hartsfield had a terrible low end, and Bart felt that could be improved with a newer horn design.

It wasn't called "blond"; it was called "Prima Vera" and I think we did make a few in Gloss Black as special orders. I don't specifically remember any made in Walnut.

Finally you asked, "Was Harvey Gerst a major decision maker at Lansing?" At that time. no, but Bill and Bart did respect my hearing abilities and I did have some slight input during the testing of the prototype. I was later made Head of Quality Control because of my ability to hear stuff other people missed. Plus I was very anal about making sure that everything that went out was perfect.

I owned two Hartsfields with the 8" speaker horn extenders, made to fit a pair of Lowther speakers I installed. Later, I had a Metrtagon made with special baffles that held a Janzen Electrostatic and the matching Janzen woofers.

[Maron Horonzakz]

Harvy,,,Did you ever get a chance to hear the 8 inch plus adaptor in the Hartsfield... I did.

[Mr. Widget]

I owned two Hartsfields with the 8" speaker horn extenders, made to fit a pair of Lowther speakers I installed. Later, I had a Metrtagon made with special baffles that held a Janzen Electrostatic and the matching Janzen woofers.Say it isn't so! Lowther and Janzen!!!!:blink:

Actually I think that is very cool... if you can't have an open mind to alternatives you stagnate. I have yet to hear a Lowther that I like, but perhaps back in those days their competition was also less accurate.



Wolf... you have some very nice looking Hartsfields.


Widget

[wolfshead]

First of all, George Augspurger wasn't even there during the change over from Bill Hartstfield's original design to Bart Locanthi and Bill Burton's newer horn design. It took place on Fletcher Drive, not on Casitas. George didn't come to work for JBL until after we moved to Casitas.

Yes, one reason was to make it simpler to build, but I think the overriding reason was that the original Hartsfield had a terrible low end, and Bart felt that could be improved with a newer horn design.

It wasn't called "blond"; it was called "Prima Vera" and I think we did make a few in Gloss Black as special orders. I don't specifically remember any made in Walnut.

Finally you asked, "Was Harvey Gerst a major decision maker at Lansing?" At that time. no, but Bill and Bart did respect my hearing abilities and I did have some slight input during the testing of the prototype. I was later made Head of Quality Control because of my ability to hear stuff other people missed. Plus I was very anal about making sure that everything that went out was perfect.

I owned two Hartsfields with the 8" speaker horn extenders, made to fit a pair of Lowther speakers I installed. Later, I had a Metrtagon made with special baffles that held a Janzen Electrostatic and the matching Janzen woofers.

I don't doubt your experience with JBL , but cost is a factor in any decision involving the production of any item. The question of decision
making is critical in any decision where cost is a factor, not just respect.

Several other publications was of the same opinion , Lansing changed the
location of the woofer and shorten the horn to reduce cost in production.
There were walnut veneered Hartsfields produced in 1963 and 1964.

There was a starter system for the Hartsfields , that system used a 8"
D208 speaker operating in full range. The speaker was mounted behind the Koustical Lens and used a duck to back load the driver into the bass horn. This was before the redesign of the Hartsfield.
This addition was never a marketing success and this option was dropped within two years.

[sheltiedave]

Hey now, that was a Hartsfield I have actually heard(the one with the 208 tack-on.) :)

[Harvey Gerst]

I don't doubt your experience with JBL , but cost is a factor in any decision involving the production of any item. The question of decision making is critical in any decision where cost is a factor, not just respect.

Several other publications was of the same opinion , Lansing changed the
location of the woofer and shorten the horn to reduce cost in production.
There were walnut veneered Hartsfields produced in 1963 and 1964.

There was a starter system for the Hartsfields , that system used a 8"
D208 speaker operating in full range. The speaker was mounted behind the Koustical Lens and used a duct to back load the driver into the bass horn. This was before the redesign of the Hartsfield.
This addition was never a marketing success and this option was dropped within two years.
It wasn't a duct; it was a continuation of the horn flare. And if you were there at the time, you'd know that improving the sound of the Hartsfield (before some people actually measured it) would have been Bill Thomas' primary consideration.

The fact that it was chosen as Life Magazine's "Dream System" actually scared us because we knew its faults. The original Bill Hartsfield design was convoluted at best, and pretty shitty below 90 Hz. The 375's frequency response dropped like a rock after 9 kHz. I think Bart and Bill saw improving the Hartsfield as a challenge. Adding Bill's 075 above 7 kHz helped out the top end considerably.

Almost all the Walnut Hartsfields would have been made at Casitas, not Fletcher Drive, and those would be the newer cabinet. I don't recall seeing any in Walnut with the original cabinet, but it is possible, I guess.

People today don't really appreciate how dedicated we were back then; it was an extended family, and we were all fanatics about quality.

As far as the Hartsfield was concerned, and knowing Bill Thomas as well as I did; it would never have been primarily about cutting costs on making the Hartsfield. The primary goal at JBL was always sonic quality - at least it was back then. And all those "other publications' opinions" you allude to; it's just that: their opinions, not facts. Talk to Johnny Edwards; he was there too.

And I'm sorry if this post sounds like I'm pissed off; well actually I am. JBL in the 50's and 60's was the most amazing company I've ever worked at. I ate dinner at Bill Thomas' house on N. Vermont and with Margaret and Bill in Santa Barbara many times, at Ed and Edna May's house, visited Johnny Edward's house in Glendale and went sailing with him to Catalina, and split two halves of a duplex with George Augspurger. You don't know what happened back then; I do.

[Harvey Gerst]

Say it isn't so! Lowther and Janzen!!!!:blink:

Actually I think that is very cool... if you can't have an open mind to alternatives you stagnate. I have yet to hear a Lowther that I like, but perhaps back in those days their competition was also less accurate.Actually, the original small Lowther speaker was rather nice, and it sounded pretty good in the Hartsfield. It was certainly better than the D208 - and a lot more expensive at the time.

[wolfshead]

It wasn't a duct; it was a continuation of the horn flare. And if you were there at the time, you'd know that improving the sound of the Hartsfield (before some people actually measured it) would have been Bill Thomas' primary consideration.

The fact that it was chosen as Life Magazine's "Dream System" actually scared us because we knew its faults. The original Bill Hartsfield design was convoluted at best, and pretty shitty below 90 Hz. The 375's frequency response dropped like a rock after 9 kHz. I think Bart and Bill saw improving the Hartsfield as a challenge. Adding Bill's 075 above 7 kHz helped out the top end considerably.

Almost all the Walnut Hartsfields would have been made at Casitas, not Fletcher Drive, and those would be the newer cabinet. I don't recall seeing any in Walnut with the original cabinet, but it is possible, I guess.

People today don't really appreciate how dedicated we were back then; it was an extended family, and we were all fanatics about quality.

As far as the Hartsfield was concerned, and knowing Bill Thomas as well as I did; it would never have been primarily about cutting costs on making the Hartsfield. The primary goal at JBL was always sonic quality - at least it was back then. And all those "other publications' opinions" you allude to; it's just that: their opinions, not facts. Talk to Johnny Edwards; he was there too.

And I'm sorry if this post sounds like I'm pissed off; well actually I am. JBL in the 50's and 60's was the most amazing company I've ever worked at. I ate dinner at Bill Thomas' house on N. Vermont and with Margaret and Bill in Santa Barbara many times, at Ed and Edna May's house, visited Johnny Edward's house in Glendale and went sailing with him to Catalina, and split two halves of a duplex with George Augspurger. You don't know what happened back then; I do.

I don't question the fact that you worked for JBL and was an insider. There is a different varsion of the reasons JBL redesigned the Hartsfied from another person who worked there George Augspurger , who wrote several
papers on speakers. One of his articles " the importance of Speaker efficiency " written in 1963 and published by Electronic World was excellent.

There were others outside of JBL who also felt it was an economic decision not a quality decision.
The 1954 review of the Hartsfield in High Fidelity magazine made no mention of faults " IF I had to sum up my impressions in one sentence ,
something alone these lines would probably be as good as any it reveals
the splendor of the music."

On this subject we can agree to disagree.

[hjames]

You do know that the reviews in most magazines were swayed by the ad revenue from the firms advertising in the magazine, right?

This Wolfhead guy has gotten the word directly from insiders who were there,
yet he still feels his opinion and stuff he read in the audio gossip magazines is right.



On this subject we can agree to disagree.

No sir, the folks who were there KNOW the truth, and have told you the reasons.
You however, politely insist that they don't know what the truth is and continue to insists that you are the one who is right.
It is not polite to tell insiders that they are either misguided or lying, no matter how politely you do so ...
And yes, you did not use those words, but what else is one to think when you continue to say he is wrong ...

What we CAN agree on is that you are stubborn and insist on being wrong in the face of reality.

People, why is anyone continuing to talk to this ... uh, "gentleman".

Is he funny? Is he funny like a clown. Does he AMUSE you ...?

[BMWCCA]

Does he AMUSE you ...?

Well, yeah. And Wolfie's interaction with Harvey leaves no doubt as to the true nature of every "discussion" he's begun or "contributed" to here.

I'm amazed when I read reviews related to my field of expertise and find them in conflict with the facts. Knowing what I know makes me wonder about all reviews of products I don't understand or know well. When reviewers like Consumer Reports give black marks for one year of a product I know well, and the next year of the identical product gets green, I know their sample is skewed and the data simply wrong. (Their sample is CU members who return the survey, that's it.) Then I can't even trust their opinion on a toaster. Audio magazines are no different. Opinions are like a**holes; everyone has one.

Years ago my favorite BMW 5-series got black marks for "electrical system". Investigation by BMW found that the failure was dirty electric-antenna masts not fully retracting and getting bent, or cars in car washes getting antennae bent because the radio was left on. CU categorized those "failures" as "electrical system" problems. The next model, BMW did away with mast antennae completely. The radio reception suffered but the electrical system ratings were back to "green" in Consumer Reports.

[wolfshead]

You do know that the reviews in most magazines were swayed by the ad revenue from the firms advertising in the magazine, right?

This Wolfhead guy has gotten the word directly from insiders who were there,
yet he still feels his opinion and stuff he read in the audio gossip magazines is right.



No sir, the folks who were there KNOW the truth, and have told you the reasons.
You however, politely insist that they don't know what the truth is and continue to insists that you are the one who is right.
It is not polite to tell insiders that they are either misguided or lying, no matter how politely you do so ...
And yes, you did not use those words, but what else is one to think when you continue to say he is wrong ...

What we CAN agree on is that you are stubborn and insist on being wrong in the face of reality.

People, why is anyone continuing to talk to this ... uh, "gentleman".

Is he funny? Is he funny like a clown. Does he AMUSE you ...?

Read the post , the information I have is from an insider, George Augspurger. Both worked for JBL. Both were insiders . Augspurger's
article differed with Gerst as to why the Hartsfield was redesigned.

I never posted that either person was right or wrong. Two different points of view from two well respected JBL insiders.
That is what a forum is, a discussion posing different positions on an issue or subject.

[Fred Sanford]

It wasn't a duct; it was a continuation of the horn flare. And if you were there at the time, you'd know that improving the sound of the Hartsfield (before some people actually measured it) would have been Bill Thomas' primary consideration.

The fact that it was chosen as Life Magazine's "Dream System" actually scared us because we knew its faults. The original Bill Hartsfield design was convoluted at best, and pretty shitty below 90 Hz. The 375's frequency response dropped like a rock after 9 kHz. I think Bart and Bill saw improving the Hartsfield as a challenge. Adding Bill's 075 above 7 kHz helped out the top end considerably.

Almost all the Walnut Hartsfields would have been made at Casitas, not Fletcher Drive, and those would be the newer cabinet. I don't recall seeing any in Walnut with the original cabinet, but it is possible, I guess.

People today don't really appreciate how dedicated we were back then; it was an extended family, and we were all fanatics about quality.

As far as the Hartsfield was concerned, and knowing Bill Thomas as well as I did; it would never have been primarily about cutting costs on making the Hartsfield. The primary goal at JBL was always sonic quality - at least it was back then. And all those "other publications' opinions" you allude to; it's just that: their opinions, not facts. Talk to Johnny Edwards; he was there too.

And I'm sorry if this post sounds like I'm pissed off; well actually I am. JBL in the 50's and 60's was the most amazing company I've ever worked at. I ate dinner at Bill Thomas' house on N. Vermont and with Margaret and Bill in Santa Barbara many times, at Ed and Edna May's house, visited Johnny Edward's house in Glendale and went sailing with him to Catalina, and split two halves of a duplex with George Augspurger. You don't know what happened back then; I do.

Thank you, as always, for sharing your experiences. Sorry if some of the posts in this thread have ticked you off- we're all better for the facts you've ended up responding with and sharing with us, but it's too bad that it was prompted by somebody making you feel disrespected.

Hopefully you can trust in the fact that any future reader of this thread will take your experience and reputation into account, and know where the truth lies.

je

[wolfshead]

Well, yeah. And Wolfie's interaction with Harvey leaves no doubt as to the true nature of every "discussion" he's begun or "contributed" to here.

I'm amazed when I read reviews related to my field of expertise and find them in conflict with the facts. Knowing what I know makes me wonder about all reviews of products I don't understand or know well. When reviewers like Consumer Reports give black marks for one year of a product I know well, and the next year of the identical product gets green, I know their sample is skewed and the data simply wrong. (Their sample is CU members who return the survey, that's it.) Then I can't even trust their opinion on a toaster. Audio magazines are no different. Opinions are like a**holes; everyone has one.

Years ago my favorite BMW 5-series got black marks for "electrical system". Investigation by BMW found that the failure was dirty electric-antenna masts not fully retracting and getting bent, or cars in car washes getting antennae bent because the radio was left on. CU categorized those "failures" as "electrical system" problems. The next model, BMW did away with mast antennae completely. The radio reception suffered but the electrical system ratings were back to "green" in Consumer Reports.

You to did not read my post , Consumers union was not used as a reference. A well respected electronic magazine " Electronic world "was
my reference.
The person quoted was a respected pioneer in audio and electronics who was an insider at JBL , George Augspurger.
Mr. Augspurger wrote and had published several articles and books on
the subject of Hi-Fi.

If you are interested in the topic , do some research , there are many audio publications that reviewed and tested the Hartsfields.
Many of those reviewers and testers were well repected in the industry.
Than draw your own conclusion.

[scott fitlin]

Oh please, give it up already dude! When you first came to the forum, you insisted, YES YOU INSISTED pre 70,s speakers were superior to anything made today! Yeah, many things from the past, they had a nice sound, and up until recently, I might have preferred them to what we now have. But, they aren't SUPERIOR to todays top products, either.

Magazine articles, HEY, I read published specs for speakers and electronics EVERY day. You are aware there can be two sets of specs for a speaker too? The PUBLISHED specs the PUBLIC, like YOU and I, read. The in house specs that they DON'T MAKE available to us.

TOO MANY TIMES I MYSELF READ WELL RESPECTED REVIEWS, then, go and BUY or HEAR for MYSELF and MY OWN EARS do NOT agree with the WELL RESPECTED REVEIW!

So, as a direct result of my own feelings and experiences, that magazines, and reviews are good as a guide as to WHAT IS AVAILABLE, that is ALL I USE REVIEWS FOR! A GUIDE, not the LAST and FINAL WORD! MY EARS, NOT YOUR WORDS DICTATE TO ME, MY OWN POLICIES!

Now your refuting what Harvey is telling you, and Harvey is telling you what HE KNOWS, NOT THINKS!

Sure George Augspurger said positive things, and things he IS SUPPOSED TO SAY to a magazine! What did you want him to say? Well, the JBL speaker as it was originally, it sucked? I can find you 100 things in history that are outright lies! And millions of outright lies in advertising and business dating back to when this country began!

I understand that at your age your set in your ways, and you just don't want to hear anything other than what it is that you like, and most of what you like is GONE! And your entitled to think what you want to. But, Harvey Gerst is telling us the truth, because he was there, and more than likely put the drivers into your esteemed Hartsfields! He has no reason to lie. I take offense to your alluding to him telling us untruths!

IF it was just that you didn't like the speakers of later years, but YOU LIKE NOTHING OF TODAY! "I" with my earings, my taste in clothing, women, audio, cars, jewelry, music, foods, furnishings, ethical and moral values, EVERYTHING IS NOT UP TO YOUR STANDARDS! NO ONE BUT YOU HAS THE SAY SO!

You have things backwards. It is ONLY you who cannot get past a point in time, a time period you loved, BECAUSE THEY WERE YOUR TIMES!

[scott fitlin]

Mr Gerst already told you George was not there at the time of the design change, that George came along later.
You, sir, were not there either. What we are getting from you is merely your memory of things written by him -
a MUCH different thing. And frankly its insulting of you to deny someone who was ACTUALLY THERE.
We KNOW Mr Gerst has a place in these events - you, on the other hand, you are just a talker ...

I, myself, cannot understand how Wolf can't understand this, either!

[sheltiedave]

And the hatred continues to spew forth...

[hjames]

And the hatred continues to spew forth...

Why is it hatred when he denies someone who was actually there at the time, preferring instead to believe something he read?
Its the fact that he continues with this kind of belief even in the face of truth that gets so frustrating ...

Would you rather insult Harvey Gerst,
who has actual Lansing Heritage and has come here and shared personal experiences here?

[scott fitlin]

And the hatred continues to spew forth...Yeah, and from Wolfs keyboard!

Just as he is not censored, neither are we, what can you do?

[wolfshead]

Well, yeah. And Wolfie's interaction with Harvey leaves no doubt as to the true nature of every "discussion" he's begun or "contributed" to here.

I'm amazed when I read reviews related to my field of expertise and find them in conflict with the facts. Knowing what I know makes me wonder about all reviews of products I don't understand or know well. When reviewers like Consumer Reports give black marks for one year of a product I know well, and the next year of the identical product gets green, I know their sample is skewed and the data simply wrong. (Their sample is CU members who return the survey, that's it.) Then I can't even trust their opinion on a toaster. Audio magazines are no different. Opinions are like a**holes; everyone has one.

Years ago my favorite BMW 5-series got black marks for "electrical system". Investigation by BMW found that the failure was dirty electric-antenna masts not fully retracting and getting bent, or cars in car washes getting antennae bent because the radio was left on. CU categorized those "failures" as "electrical system" problems. The next model, BMW did away with mast antennae completely. The radio reception suffered but the electrical system ratings were back to "green" in Consumer Reports.
Why use Consumers Union to research cars ? There is Road & Track , Car & Driver , Top Gear etc,, and a number of publications focusing on a BMW's only.


Especially when reading reviews of high end cars. Consumers Union does an excellent job of reviewing items for the average consumer.
An example Consumers Union rated the AR2a as the best speaker in that era. Consumers Union did not rate high end speakers.

I have yet to see a review of a Ferrari or any exotic car in Consumers Reports. How many 10 or 12 cylinder cars has been reviewed in Consumers Report ?

[scott fitlin]

Why use Consumers Union to research cars ? There is Road & Track , Car & Driver , Top Gear etc,, and a number of publications focusing on a BMW's only.


Especially when reading reviews of high end cars. Consumers Union does an excellent job of reviewing items for the average consumer.
An example Consumers Union rated the AR2a as the best speaker in that era. Consumers Union did not rate high end speakers.

I have yet to see a review of a Ferrari or any exotic car in Consumers Reports. How many 10 or 12 cylinder cars has been reviewed in Consumers Report ?Car and Driver AND Motor trend both rated the Infinity G35 as as good as the BMW 3 series, in handling, and acceleration. I went and test drove it, and the BMW 3, the Infinity was good, but was NO BMW!

[scott fitlin]

I have yet to see a review of a Ferrari or any exotic car in Consumers Reports. How many 10 or 12 cylinder cars has been reviewed in Consumers Report ?There are publications that review cars like these. Consumer Report caters to the mass market buyer. Not the affluent, and exotic cars.

These days with the current prices of gas, and only going to go up in the future, many people no longer even look at 12 cylinder cars. TOO EXPENSIVE TO RUN. Also, once upon a time, a V12 was the only way to get HP that high, and smooth. Todays technology and advances allow auto makers to achieve extremely high output and torque, in an 8 cylinder engine, with better fuel economy, and even the government pressures auto makers to manufacture vehicles that are more inline with todays needs.

However, the cars with V12,s were always limited, and super expensive, NOT the norm, or the cars of average folks everywhere.

Umm, Wolf, wayyyyyy back, in an even higher quality time period than your beloved 1950,s, Cadillac was pursuing the 16 cylinder engine. They even had a production car with a 16cyl. It never took off though. Too expensive to manufacture, and buy. And even when gasoline, was 8 cents a gallon, it was just not an engine they could really put out in the market with any success.

The cars with V12 engines weren't mainstay in your day, and they still aren't!

Ferrari is a NICHE market automobile.

And, successful publications are successful BECAUSE they know who their readership base is and publish reviews and articles on products the readership is interested in and WILL BUY!

[Harvey Gerst]

Lemme see if I can create an events timeline for him:

I started working at JBL around 1957 or 58. The engineering department consisted at that time of Bill Burton and his technical assistant, Gus. Bart Locanthi was an outside consultant. We were in several buildings on Fletcher Drive.

We moved to Casitas Avenue in 1959 or 1960, as I recall. It was still Bill Burton and Gus, with Bart showing up occasionally during the first year at Casitas.

Bill Burton left JBL to start Transducer Inc. in 1960, and Ed May replaced him as head of R&D. We were in Casitas for at least 6 months or more before Ed joined JBL. So now, it was Ed, Gus and Bart (occasionally).

I believe it was 1961 or 1962 when George Augspurger joined JBL.

The original Hartsfields were made during our Fletcher Drive years. The new version prototype was also built and tested on Fletcher Drive shortly before we moved, so that would put it around 1959. Ed had nothing to do with the original "coffin-back" Hartsfield; it was all Bill Burton and Bart Locanthi.

The first prototype Paragon, accompanied by Col. Richard Ranger, was delivered to Casitas Avenue. George Augspurger was not yet working at JBL.

Let me say it again so I'm perfectly clear on this point: I was there; George wasn't. And this is not a slam against George; he's brilliant, and a close and dear friend. But, he wasn't there at the time this all went down.

Wolfshead, you have your opinions and later articles about that period; I have my memories of those actual events.

[wolfshead]

There are publications that review cars like these. Consumer Report caters to the mass market buyer. Not the affluent, and exotic cars.

These days with the current prices of gas, and only going to go up in the future, many people no longer even look at 12 cylinder cars. TOO EXPENSIVE TO RUN. Also, once upon a time, a V12 was the only way to get HP that high, and smooth. Todays technology and advances allow auto makers to achieve extremely high output and torque, in an 8 cylinder engine, with better fuel economy, and even the government pressures auto makers to manufacture vehicles that are more inline with todays needs.

However, the cars with V12,s were always limited, and super expensive, NOT the norm, or the cars of average folks everywhere.

Umm, Wolf, wayyyyyy back, in an even higher quality time period than your beloved 1950,s, Cadillac was pursuing the 16 cylinder engine. They even had a production car with a 16cyl. It never took off though. Too expensive to manufacture, and buy. And even when gasoline, was 8 cents a gallon, it was just not an engine they could really put out in the market with any success.

The cars with V12 engines weren't mainstay in your day, and they still aren't!

Ferrari is a NICHE market automobile.

And, successful publications are successful BECAUSE they know who their readership base is and publish reviews and articles on products the readership is interested in and WILL BUY!

You are not reading the car publications , power is in , BMW , Mercedes ,
Audi , and even Cadillac or featuring more powerful cars. Not to mention
Porsche Jaguar , Acura and Lexus.

The masses , as the saying goes " shepherds change , but sheep remain sheep ". JBL'S speakers were not designed for the masses until recently.
Cadillac has revisted the idea of building a 16 cylinder car. The Bentley you desire has a W-12 clyinder engine !

Most of the really outstanding cars are built outside of the U.S. where government pressure is very different as it applies to high performance
cars. Americans but them !

There are more 12 clyinder cars produced today than 10 years ago !
People today earn more money , they are more able to afford expensive foreign cars. In New York , drive around manhatten , or read the cars section of the New York Times.

[hjames]

You are not reading the car publications , power is in , BMW , Mercedes ,
Audi , and even Cadillac or featuring more powerful cars. Not to mention
Porsche Jaguar , Acura and Lexus.

The masses , as the saying goes " shepherds change , but sheep remain sheep ". JBL'S speakers were not designed for the masses until recently.
Cadillac has revisted the idea of building a 16 cylinder car. The Bentley you desire has a W-12 clyinder engine !

Most of the really outstanding cars are built outside of the U.S. where government pressure is very different as it applies to high performance
cars. Americans but them !

There are more 12 clyinder cars produced today than 10 years ago !
People today earn more money , they are more able to afford expensive foreign cars. In New York , drive around manhatten , or read the cars section of the New York Times.

You continue to confuse marketing drivel with reality ...talk to PEOPLE and see how many v12s are being purchased on the open market - and what you see in the high end parts of NYC is hardly typical - but no doubt you drank the kool aid deeply and can't see reality in the face of propaganda.
The point of the magazines is to SELL THINGS - they are not "impartial" they have been bought and sold, just another shiney display case for the would be buyer. They have an agenda, that's why they are always positive.

[SEAWOLF97]

There are more 12 clyinder cars produced today than 10 years ago .

Unless BMW has something new , the only V-12's that I know about were the 750 & 850 ...both electrical nightmares (the inside story said they had enough wiring to reach the moon) ....they do not hold their value well.
Also drove a Jag XJ-12 ...power, but the fuel gauge dropped as fast as the speedo rose...:( ..terrible resale there too.


funny how every thread wolf shead starts turns into the same thing ??

[wolfshead]

You continue to confuse marketing drivel with reality ...talk to PEOPLE and see how many v12s are being purchased on the open market - and what you see in the high end parts of NYC is hardly typical - but no doubt you drank the kool aid deeply and can't see reality in the face of propaganda.
The point of the magazines is to SELL THINGS - they are not "impartial" they have been bought and sold, just another shiney display case for the would be buyer. They have an agenda, that's why they are always positive.

The open market ? Where do you think V12's are sold ?
newspapers , car dealer lots and by private owners.

There are V12's in the St.Louis area. I am a member of a forum such as this where the members discuss and drive V12's.
Visit an European auto show ,many of the cars there are V12's
Most of the V12 car owners do not live in NY ! There are many there
NY is a very affluent city.

As for as magazines , one can buy a magazine on almost any subject.
There are car magazines that cater to high end cars. There are audio magazines that mostly list high end audio.

You offer excellent counterpoints.:)

[wolfshead]

Unless BMW has something new , the only V-12's that I know about were the 750 & 850 ...both electrical nightmares (the inside story said they had enough wiring to reach the moon) ....they do not hold their value well.
Also drove a Jag XJ-12 ...power, but the fuel gauge dropped as fast as the speedo rose...:( ..terrible resale there too.

You are not keeping up. There is a 760 and a new V12 by BMW will be sold this year replacing the 760 with superchargers costing even more than the $140,000 of the 760.

As for as electrical nightmares , the early ones did have problems with
mostly computers. That was worked out. As for as holdingtheir value , depends on which V12.

Gas milage is not an issue when one is considering buying a car that sells
in excess of $90,000 and up !

These cars are not for everyone , than neither is a Hartsfield.:)

[Mr. Widget]

I don't question the fact that you worked for JBL and was an insider...

On this subject we can agree to disagree.No! On this subject the polite, proper, and intelligent thing to do is say, "Gee whiz, I was wrong!" "I guess I was misinformed and am sorry to have offended you." :blink:


Widget

[Audiobeer]

Let's face it, it's not the topic or the subject, It's the banter. He love's it. He's the guy at the lunchroom that causes everyone to start going out to eat. He's a sock puppet who's been there done that. He's the "reason" the Ignore List was in place for airbags just like him. I see a Closed thread coming Bah Bye.

[SEAWOLF97]

You are not keeping up. There is a 760 and a new V12 by BMW will be sold this year replacing the 760 with superchargers costing even more than the $140,000 of the 760.
Gas milage is not an issue when one is considering buying a car that sells
in excess of $90,000 and up !

These cars are not for everyone , than neither is a Hartsfield.:)

Of course you MUST buy one...:rotfl: (being a connoisseur of the best of breed products) ....mebbe there will be a $1,500 special that you can snag from some unknowing wife....:bouncy:

I just cant figure how you got so rich with such poor grammar/spelling ??? lottery ??

[Maron Horonzakz]

Of course you MUST buy one...:rotfl: (being a connoisseur of the best of breed products) ....mebbe there will be a $1,500 special that you can snag from some unknowing wife....:bouncy:

I just cant figure how you got so rich with such poor grammar/spelling ??? lottery ??
Seawolf,,,,,MEBBE MEBBE??? Your spelling is the pitts,,,And your putdowns show your poor grammer... Seawolf spills more money from his pocket than you make in a month.

[wolfshead]

No! On this subject the polite, proper, and intelligent thing to do is say, "Gee whiz, I was wrong!" "I guess I was misinformed and am sorry to have offended you." :blink:


Widget
You are again not reading my post. I gave a documented statement
regarding the redesign of the Hartsfield by another employee at JBL.
I DID NOT STATE THAT EITHER WAS RIGHT OR WRONG.

To say that George Augspurger whom I quoted is misinformed is your opinion..
Both could be correct are one correct and the other incorrect.

You can choose if you wish which one to believe. I chose Augspurger.
it appears your choice was Gerst.

There is no need for anyone to apologize.

[scott fitlin]

You are again not reading my post. I gave a documented statement
regarding the redesign of the Hartsfield by another employee at JBL.
I DID NOT STATE THAT EITHER WAS RIGHT OR WRONG.

To say that George Augspurger whom I quoted is misinformed is your opinion..
Both could be correct are one correct and the other incorrect.

You can choose if you wish which one to believe. I chose Augspurger.
it appears your choice was Gerst.

There is no need for anyone to apologize.Wolf DOES ANYONE on this forum meet your standards?

There is a problem with things, but, maybe the problem doesn't lie where you think it does. Try looking in your yard first, BEFORE attempting to clean ours, and inform us if how very wrong we have been without you.

[Harvey Gerst]

You are again not reading my post. I gave a documented statement regarding the redesign of the Hartsfield by another employee at JBL. I DID NOT STATE THAT EITHER WAS RIGHT OR WRONG.

To say that George Augspurger whom I quoted is misinformed is your opinion..
Both could be correct are one correct and the other incorrect.

You can choose if you wish which one to believe. I chose Augspurger.
it appears your choice was Gerst.

There is no need for anyone to apologize.
And you apparently aren't reading my post. George was NOT there during the redesign of the Hartsfield; he joined JBL several years afterwards, and that's a fact. I was there, and that's another fact! I loaded the components into the new "coffin-back" cabinet, and that's another fact. I stood there while it was being tested, and that's yet another fact. George was NOT there. The people present were: me, Bill Burton, Bart Locanthi, Gus, and Bill Thomas, and that's the final fact.

You're countering my first-hand "facts" with George's "opinion" of what happened on Fletcher Drive - two or three years before George came to work at JBL, after we had moved to Casitas Avenue.

This is silly; believe what you will.

[scott fitlin]

And you apparently aren't reading my post. George was NOT there during the redesign of the Hartsfield; he joined JBL several years afterwards. I was there! I loaded the components into the new "coffin-back" cabinet. I stood there while it was being tested. George was NOT there. The people present were: me, Bill Burton, Bart Locanthi, Gus, and Bill Thomas.BANG!

Personally, I will take Harvey's word over Wolf's any day of any decade!

[Fred Sanford]

JBL'S speakers were not designed for the masses until recently.

:blink:

This is one of the best yet, I'm surprised nobody else picked up on it. Unless, I suppose, he considers the mid-1970s to be "recently".

Never mind- I think I have my answer, now.

je

[scott fitlin]

:blink:

This is one of the best yet, I'm surprised nobody else picked up on it. Unless, I suppose, he considers the mid-1970s to be "recently".

Never mind- I think I have my answer, now.

jeWe are a long way from 1970 and the popularity of the L100.

Who were the L100,s designed for? Russia?

[Maron Horonzakz]

We are a long way from 1970 and the popularity of the L100.

Who were the L100,s designed for? Russia?
Vee had them too ,,,YAH

[scott fitlin]

You are not keeping up. There is a 760 and a new V12 by BMW will be sold this year replacing the 760 with superchargers costing even more than the $140,000 of the 760.

As for as electrical nightmares , the early ones did have problems with
mostly computers. That was worked out. As for as holdingtheir value , depends on which V12.

Gas milage is not an issue when one is considering buying a car that sells
in excess of $90,000 and up !

These cars are not for everyone , than neither is a Hartsfield.:)And this is why products like these are NOT reviewed in magazines like Consumer Report!

[Fred Sanford]

Anybody else notice he's often actually quoting Don?


In 1959, there was a significant redesign of the bass horn in the Hartsfield. The stated purpose was to simplify the horn path to result in a smoother response. However, it was likely that the greater motivation was monetary since the redesign resulted in a simplified construction that significantly reduced manufacturing costs.

Anybody know where Don got the info for this page?

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/hartsfield.htm

je

[scott fitlin]

Vee had them too ,,,YAHDah, Vee Did!

[SEAWOLF97]

. Seawolf spills more money from his pocket than you make in a month.

run out of meds ??? ....:rotfl:

[BMWCCA]

...and a number of publications focusing on a BMW's only.

I understand. I was the editor of one...



How many 10 or 12 cylinder cars has been reviewed in Consumers Report ?Fringe cars. Never met a 12-cylinder BMW I'd want to try to keep operational for any length of time, or even one that was worth it. I wrote a review of the E60 M5 (V-10) after driving it at Lime Rock Park. Pretty amazing for a 4-door sedan, but pricey, temperamental, and now discontinued. The turbo V8 is apparently the future for the M5. The V12 is used only in the 760 and the Rolls Royce, not really volume products and neither performs better than the simple V8 in the M3 or the 550i sedan. In fact, the 6-cylinder 135i is quicker than most of those 0-60 if you believe the magazines and not the pecking-order-influenced stats that BMW quotes.

I believe Wofie professed to own one of those bloated 12-cylinder 850i's that never could figure out if it was a Thunderbird or a castrated Porsche 928. Only the six-speed-manual model or the M-tuned Csi were worth a second look a few years after introduction. The rest were all style and little function. Sort of like a Hartsfield? Probably looks nice in the garage at the retirement home. I'd rather drive my 2.3L 2002 with its Korman Stage-IV engine with dual Weber 45s. Enhanced but fun. I was even thinking of asking BMW if they'd re-finish it with walnut veneer...

[Harvey Gerst]

Anybody else notice he's often actually quoting Don? Quote: In 1959, there was a significant redesign of the bass horn in the Hartsfield. The stated purpose was to simplify the horn path to result in a smoother response. However, it was likely that the greater motivation was monetary since the redesign resulted in a simplified construction that significantly reduced manufacturing costs.
Anybody know where Don got the info for this page?

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/pr...hartsfield.htm (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/../html/profiles/jbl/hartsfield.htm)

je
Please note the boldfaced words in the above quote.

The "stated purpose" is what's known as a fact, or at least "an official statement issued by the company", while the words "was likely" are simply speculation on the part of the writer.

[JBL 4645]

70 something or not, you understand exactly what you say, and you are not the LAST word on the subject, even IF you do own two Hartsfield speakers.

Scotty
So far we've only seen one lousy picture for an excuse close up. What about a wide shot of the room. Or least standing next to it for that pose.

Most of us here are very capable of taking more than one lousy picture even with a cheap camera like mine :o: that looks like an SLR image compared to his.

[JBL 4645]

Please, SPARE us from the continual oversize graphic spamming off the topic ... its just annoying, ok?

That is not oversize it’s the smallest one I can find of "the duke".:D

[Fred Sanford]

Please note the boldfaced words in the above quote.

The "stated purpose" is what's known as a fact, or at least "an official statement issued by the company", while the words "was likely" are simply speculation on the part of the writer.

Absolutely understood- it just seems that some phrases from Don's article have been repeated verbatim by Wolfshead, I was wondering if the source for both might be the same old magazine interview.

To me, if a design change brings improvements in performance, and increases in ease of assembly + efficiency, with a by-product of a reduction in manufacturing costs, that pretty much sums up into effective engineering. :dont-know

je

[Sam Cogley]

Absolutely understood- it just seems that some phrases from Don's article have been repeated verbatim by Wolfshead, I was wondering if the source for both might be the same old magazine interview.

To me, if a design change brings improvements in performance, and increases in ease of assembly + efficiency, with a by-product of a reduction in manufacturing costs, that pretty much sums up into effective engineering. :dont-know

je

11 pages and this is by far the most logical, insightful and informative post. Thanks for finally injecting some rationality into the sea of bickering.

[wolfshead]

Absolutely understood- it just seems that some phrases from Don's article have been repeated verbatim by Wolfshead, I was wondering if the source for both might be the same old magazine interview.

To me, if a design change brings improvements in performance, and increases in ease of assembly + efficiency, with a by-product of a reduction in manufacturing costs, that pretty much sums up into effective engineering. :dont-know

jeLike it or not cost is a major factor in any business ! Otherwise there would not be high end and low end products.
Why doesn't most men wear John Lobb shoes or Richard Green shoes ?
Cost ! John Lobb and Richard Green shoes are the finest shoes for men manufactured.

Rolls Royce is the finest luxury car in the world. Patek Philippe is the finest watch. Brioni and Kiton are the finest suits off the rack manufactured.
My point is there are cost reasons why most men don't buy these products.

I am sure JBL wished to make fine high end speakers to compete with other high end speaker companies in the audio industry.
Cost was a factor. The Hartsfield was the most expensive speaker at the time when introduced. Was there a market ? especially with stereo.
Was there a way in which the manufactoring cost could be reduced if not than the cost would have to be passed on to the consumer. With large speakers in decline what was Lansing to do ?

Reduce the cost or discontinue the Hartsfield. Lansing tried reducing manufacturing cost , no success. Even with a reduction in manufacturing cost the speaker could not be saved. Cost increased.

The Hartsfield whent the same route as Concert Grands , Churchills , Patricians, Imperials , etc. etc, To expensive to produce and to large for stereo. Few homes could either afford or was willing to except a pair of monster speakers in their living rooms.

Next sell the idea that smaller was better. It worked ! After all rock is better than classical, Elvis is better than Sinatra and a Timex keeps better
time than a Rolex and they all cost less to produce.

Does design change always bring improvement or in many cases reduce
cost ?

[wolfshead]

I understand. I was the editor of one...


Fringe cars. Never met a 12-cylinder BMW I'd want to try to keep operational for any length of time, or even one that was worth it. I wrote a review of the E60 M5 (V-10) after driving it at Lime Rock Park. Pretty amazing for a 4-door sedan, but pricey, temperamental, and now discontinued. The turbo V8 is apparently the future for the M5. The V12 is used only in the 760 and the Rolls Royce, not really volume products and neither performs better than the simple V8 in the M3 or the 550i sedan. In fact, the 6-cylinder 135i is quicker than most of those 0-60 if you believe the magazines and not the pecking-order-influenced stats that BMW quotes.

I believe Wofie professed to own one of those bloated 12-cylinder 850i's that never could figure out if it was a Thunderbird or a castrated Porsche 928. Only the six-speed-manual model or the M-tuned Csi were worth a second look a few years after introduction. The rest were all style and little function. Sort of like a Hartsfield? Probably looks nice in the garage at the retirement home. I'd rather drive my 2.3L 2002 with its Korman Stage-IV engine with dual Weber 45s. Enhanced but fun. I was even thinking of asking BMW if they'd re-finish it with walnut veneer...

BMW stopped producing the V12 coupes because of decling sales.
Mercedes dropped their V12 coupes for the same reasons. The Porsche
928 coupe was also discontinued. Reasons the 1990's was the recession decade. Cars costing in excess of $90,000 was no longer selling.
The V12 BMW coupe and the V12 Mercedes coupe both sold for $100,000
or more in recession years.

The big V12 coupes are image cars ! One would be a fool to compare a
V12 coupe with a 2002 ! or any other BMW car , different market.
Like the Hartsfields the V12's are not for everyone. Expensive to buy and
operate.

I own a 1994 BMW 850 csi. Gets 8-15 mpg ! Upkeep very expensive as in
any high end German car. No different than a Rolex or Brioni suit in upkeep.
I will repeat V12 coupes and Hartsfields are not for everyone !
As for as retirement homes many of the cars there are in better condition than some of the cars parked in many driveways and newer!!!

[wolfshead]

Scotty
So far we've only seen one lousy picture for an excuse close up. What about a wide shot of the room. Or least standing next to it for that pose.

Most of us here are very capable of taking more than one lousy picture even with a cheap camera like mine :o: that looks like an SLR image compared to his.
You want to see more travel ! Come to the states , there will be an audio meeting in south St. Louis March 20th. I will be there and if any one wishes to visit my home and see my system , they are welcome.You to.
Otherwise that is all you will see !!

I have visited your island on several occasions. London is one of my favorite cities. A very good friend of mine is English , still a citizen of Great Britain. An auto engineer , worked with Jaguar before retirement. Knew
Sir Lyons.
Look forward to meeting you.

[Harvey Gerst]

I am sure JBL wished to make fine high end speakers to compete with other high end speaker companies in the audio industry. Cost was a factor. The Hartsfield was the most expensive speaker at the time when introduced. Was there a market ? especially with stereo. Was there a way in which the manufactoring cost could be reduced; if not, than the cost would have to be passed on to the consumer. With large speakers in decline, what was Lansing to do ?

Reduce the cost or discontinue the Hartsfield. Lansing tried reducing manufacturing cost , no success. Even with a reduction in manufacturing cost the speaker could not be saved. Cost increased.

The Hartsfield went the same route as Concert Grands , Churchills , Patricians, Imperials , etc. etc, Too expensive to produce and to large for stereo. Few homes could either afford or was willing to accept a pair of monster speakers in their living rooms.

Next sell the idea that smaller was better. It worked !
Except your time line is skewed; the Hartsfield was redesigned during the "mono" era - on Fletcher Drive, not on Casitas Ave. And when "stereo" came in, yeah, we went way smaller - with the Paragon!! And of course, that was super easy to build.

[edgewound]

Except your time line is skewed; the Hartsfield was redesigned during the "mono" era - on Fletcher Drive, not on Casitas Ave. And when "stereo" came in, yeah, we went way smaller - with the Paragon!! And of course, that was super easy to build.

Keepin' it real, Harvey.

This thread, like a fine JBL, has been very revealing.

[Sam Cogley]

Except your time line is skewed; the Hartsfield was redesigned during the "mono" era - on Fletcher Drive, not on Casitas Ave. And when "stereo" came in, yeah, we went way smaller - with the Paragon!! And of course, that was super easy to build.

Wasn't the Paragon intended to be a center channel unit between two Hartsfields?

[Audiobeer]

You're not serious are you? :)

[Harvey Gerst]

Wasn't the Paragon intended to be a center channel unit between two Hartsfields?
I think that was Col. Ranger's suggestion, but it was never really pursued after we heard the Paragon prototype.

[cooky1257]

Seawolf,,,,,MEBBE MEBBE???

Your spelling is the pits and your put-downs show your poor grammar... Seawolf spills more money from his pocket than you make in a month.:D:D:D

[Fred Sanford]

Originally Posted by Fred Sanford http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=281920#post281920)
Absolutely understood- it just seems that some phrases from Don's article have been repeated verbatim by Wolfshead, I was wondering if the source for both might be the same old magazine interview.

To me, if a design change brings improvements in performance, and increases in ease of assembly + efficiency, with a by-product of a reduction in manufacturing costs, that pretty much sums up into effective engineering. :dont-know

je



<SNIP'd more stuff about more watches and more cars and more shoes>

Does design change always bring improvement or in many cases reduce
cost ?

We weren't talking about "always"- we were talking about this particular time, weren't we?

je

[SEAWOLF97]

. Seawolf spills more money from his pocket than you make in a month.:D:D:D

here

[cooky1257]

here

Exactly, the madness is spreading.

[JBL 4645]

Your spelling is the pits and your put-downs show your poor grammar... Seawolf spills more money from his pocket than you make in a month.:D:D:D

Isn’t that a quote from Arthur Scargill…early 80's?:D

[hjames]

Isn’t that a quote from Arthur Scargill…early 80's?:D

Please, stop with the dumbo screen caps already, please, one last time,
I'm asking you kindly -
its dumb, its awkward, its poorly done, and no one is laughing ...

make all the comments you like ...
but nobody else does screen caps ... its just not funny ...

and remember, I'm not the only one who has asked you to stop it ...

[JBL 4645]

Please, stop with the dumbo screen caps, please, one last time I will ask kindly -
its dumb, its awkward and poorly done, and no one is laughing ...

Wow has you’re Paddy day been that, bad for you?:D

Why don’t we have a catfight why we're at ithttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:d-AwZ5SrF_XF2M:https://www.oasisfinland.fi/shop/img/3926-1.jpg since this thread has already been turned into, a train wreck!:p

[SEAWOLF97]

Please, stop with the dumbo screen caps, please, one last time I will ask kindly -
its dumb, its awkward and poorly done, and no one is laughing ...

+1

[JBL 4645]

+1

"+1" what is that suppose to bloody well mean anyway? no matter here’s a Bunny with pancake on its head for you!

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