Array 1400 Clones

[Robh3606]

I have been working these up over the last few months. It really the culmination of my other 2 threads for the SAMHF1 and Universal Bass Module threads. I have had these running in full passive mode for the last two days.

For the driver set I have LE-14H-3 Aquaplased 2435 and 045Be drivers. The stock networks don't have enough attenuation. So I have added trim resistors I can bring outside the cabinets or just make a jumper bank like the L250Ti to give me adjustable attenuation. They are built up Charge Coupled but have not set-up the batteries yet until I have the crossovers installed in the SAM cabinets.

Wow! They sound great even though I am still futzing around with them.

Rob:)

Bass Module http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27553-Universal-Bass-Modules

SAM1HF Modules http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27281-SAM1HF-Clones

[Mr. Widget]

You big tease! :D

Looking good Rob! :bouncy:


Widget

[scott fitlin]

THOSE DO LOOK GOOD!

:applaud:

[tom1040]

Very nice...I wish I had the skill set to do something like that.

[Earl K]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=44181&stc=1&d=1265492374

Wow! They sound great even though I am still futzing around with them.

Great Work Rob.

>< cheers

[cosmos]

Very nice indeed!

Where does one go to buy SAMHF1 modules if one wanted to? Best Buy doesn't carry them..;)

I just don't see items like that for sale...

[JoMoCo]

It just seems so curious to me that neither JBL marketing types or one or more of their more knowledgable USA dealers are not involved with what, for the most part, is the JBL User Group & Fan Club......:blink:

Maybe they could learn a few things from Klipsch....:hmm:

Am I missing something?

[4313B]

Where does one go to buy SAMHF1 modules if one wanted to?Ask Mr. Widget, he's a new Synthesis Dealer. :yes:

We ordered up a bunch of these for DIY and several top echelon people at JBL had to get involved to actually get the product out the door. :banghead:

Then the outsourced shipping company packaged the first lot carelessly and they all got dinged up. :blah: :blah: :blah:

Several sets ended up in Europe and Asia and a few sets remained here in North America.


Am I missing something?Nope, they are. They forgot their roots. Actually, I seriously doubt they give a rat's ass about their roots. It's all an International Conglomerate now. If there wasn't a Paragon sitting in the lobby they wouldn't know what one was. I'm sure at some point someone will walk through and say something like "Could you please get that old thing out of here? What the hell is it anyway?"

At this point JBL will only sell the complete SAM1HF units which is probably best since they have a nice build and are warrantied for five years. They really do frown on selling pieces and parts since those pieces and parts are expressly for warranty replacement purposes and they only have a ninety day warranty.

[Titanium Dome]

Very nice...I wish I had the skill set to do something like that.

Sometimes I think I'd like to do that, too, but then reality sets in. Why do I want to?

I respect and admire what the DIY folks do around here, and I futz around a bit on my own, but when I want really great gear, I buy it. My goal is listening to the best gear I can get, and that's not going to come out of my efforts. :no:

Rob actually has a pretty good idea what he's doing, and he's willing to work hard and learn more. He enjoys it. :)

I enjoy someone else making a great product for me. :yes:

I certainly enjoyed building and tweaking my Synthesis® room (The Two Jims Theatre), but that played to skills I already had. I was confident that I had the right gear to make the work meaningful.

I'm glad to stick with what I know and that I have Greg Timbers, Chris Neumann, et al, "working" for me on the equipment design. :D

Now go listen to those amazing 1400 Arrays.

[tom1040]

Exactly, TD. However, it would be nice to be able to retire (someday) and know how to do this stuff-just to know. I like to learn new things and this hobby is right up there.

However, to your point, I, too, like to be able to purchase the finished product, albiet perhaps not that NEW finished product. There seems to be about an hour of free time a day (pushing it) to listen. The Array's are superb indeed. I think I will keep the S/2600 like you, however it seems a shame since I do not have a spot for them........

[Robh3606]

Hello T dome


He enjoys it. :)

Yes I do. It's a lot of fun to try to build these systems up.


I have Greg Timbers, Chris Neumann, et al, "working" for me on the equipment design.

Me too any of the DIY speakers I have built have been measured using their designs as a yardstick.

Hello Tom


Very nice...I wish I had the skill set to do something like that.

Thank You

Start small. Build a kit, start reading. As long, as your not all thumbs with power tools what's the worse that can happen?? There are plenty of inexpensive measurement and box programs that are available to get you started just look around. All you need for many are a computer with a full duplex sound card, basically a given, and a measurement microphone also easy to find.

Here is the final build schematic. I have been playing them for a week and I am happy with the attenuation. I will still have the resistors accessible to change them down the line.


Now go listen to those amazing 1400 Arrays.

No kidding!

Rob:)

[Robh3606]

Finally had a rainy day to get them finished. Still have the other but at least one is done. I just couldn't be happier with them.

Rob:)

[hjames]

Finally had a rainy day to get them finished. Still have the other but at least one is done. I just couldn't be happier with them.

Rob:)

Wow - they look gorgeous ... like the cart design too, unusual!

[JuniorJBL]

Very nice Robb!!

Is that a cloth material on the front of the cab?
Those should be just a joy to listen to!!;)

BTW: I have that same vinyl tile in my kitchen.:rotfl:

[Titanium Dome]

Nice, really nice. Well done. :yes:

[cooky1257]

Congrats-you got there in the end.:applaud:
Looking good too.
Cooky

[Robh3606]

Thanks!

Hello Heather

That carts not finished need to add a skirt to cover the front wheels and paint it.

Hello Junior JBL

Thats a vinyl laminate. Same stuff I used to cover the SAM's.

Hello T Dome

Nice score today:)

Hello Cooky

What's up with yours? You should be done as well.

Rob:)

[grumpy]

Ah, time to relax and listen :D. Nice job Rob.

[Chas]

Very nice Rob. Tell us more about the sound qualities versus your 4344 and 250 projects, please.

[Mr. Widget]

Very nice Rob.Yeah... what he said. :D


Widget

[Krunchy]

Hi Rob,
I see you have been busy lately, they look incredible and knowing you I am sure they sound better than they look. Congratulations! Very nice job :applaud: :)

[4313B]

They look really nice Rob! You did a killer job on those networks.

I like those rounded corners...:hmm:

[yggdrasil]

Yeah, very nice indeed.

Great cabinet job and impressing network job!

[Robh3606]

Thanks guys!


Tell us more about the sound qualities versus your 4344 and 250 projects, please.

Hello Chas

Well simply they sound better. As much as I like the 4344's the 1400's are more open sounding, have more depth and finesse. They are also very uniform through out the room and with the right material can surprise you. As far as differences to the Jubilees well I don't have enough time with them to say what they are yet.


Ah, time to relax and listen :D.

That is a great idea.

Rob:)

[Duffinator]

Hi Rob those came out great. Any update on your thoughts on how they sound compared to your other speaker builds?

[Robh3606]

Thanks! Well after living with them for a while now not much has changed. They are still the favorites. They image better, sound more natural and relaxed and vocals are just plain amazing. Don't get me wrong the other systems still sound good just not as good as these do. I won't be getting rid of the other builds.

Rob:)

[audiomagnate]

Is the efficiency the same as the 1400s, i.e. 89 dB?

[Robh3606]

Hello audiomagnate


Is the efficiency the same as the 1400s, i.e. 89 dB?


Yes I had to add additional padding to drop the horn and 045be sensitivity. It took a bit longer than I thought it would though. Ended up doing 1/2 db steps until it sounded right. Did the last bit by ear as I couldn't get repeatable resolution below 800Hz I felt comfortable with using my in-room measurements.

Rob:)

[audiomagnate]

Did you start with a stock SAM1HF and change the diaphragms to beryllium, which produced a more efficient driver, which necessitated more padding in the crossover? Or is your woofer module just less efficient than the stock 1400? Also, are you using a CC crossover?

[Robh3606]

Did you start with a stock SAM1HF and change the diaphragms to beryllium, which produced a more efficient driver, which necessitated more padding in the crossover? Or is your woofer module just less efficient than the stock 1400? Also, are you using a CC crossover?

Hello Audiomagnate

No I scratch built the enclosures and started with raw drivers. I purchased the 045Be's, horns and LE-14H-3 from JBL through member 4313B. I got the 2435's from Ebay and had the diaphrams Aquplased to make them "equivilent" to the 435Be.

The Berylium drivers are more efficient than their aluminum and Ti brothers so that is where the padding changes comes from. There is also a difference between the 435Be vs the AL where you get more output at the end of the drivers passband with the berylium. I ended up having to change the pole on one side of the crossover to get the "correct" on axis response using the JBL measurements as a guideline.

The woofer module is in a bigger overall volume but that does not effect the midband efficiency so the two have the same sensitivity at the crossover point.

There is a posted schematic in the middle of the thread and yes they are CC networks on the 2435 and the 045Be. I didn't use CC network for the caps in the woofers network or the impeadence correction zobel?? not sure what to call it. I used bypass caps or multiple values instead.

If you are interested here are the link to the seperate threads for the SAM and LF Module.

Bass Module http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27553-Universal-Bass-Modules

SAM1HF Modules http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27281-SAM1HF-Clones


Rob:)

[audiomagnate]

it's better. It has a Be mid diaphragms instead of Al, and a CC crossover. Did you address the cabinet resonances (130 and 260 Hz) mentioned in the Stereophile review? How did you get the diaphragms treated? It looks like you went with a more conventional and much easier to build bass cabinet shape than the trapezoidal stock shape. Did you keep the internal volume the same and do you think the shape makes any difference?

I'm sorry for the barrage of questions, but I have become obsessed with the 1400s after hearing them at CES. I'm either going to sell a bunch of my equipment and buy a pair, or try to do what you have done. Lastly, have you had a chance to directly compare your "clones" to the stock 1400's? I bet your speakers sound absolutely terrific!

[JuniorJBL]

Hi Robh3306

It looks by the schematic that all driver are in phase. I ask because, in the 1400 array XO, the -3 and the 435 are out of phase with the system.

BTW I have almost finished my Be xo's.:)

[Robh3606]

Been a long time but if my memory is right they are all in phase, have to go look at the impulse response. I think they are in the 1400 Array as well.

Here is a short section of the review from Stereophile. Looking at the impulse they are all wired with the same acoustic phase. I forget if the LE-14H-3 is the JBL standard which would indeed have them reversed with respect too the upper drive units. Get a 1.5 volt battery and see what's what.

Rob:)

[JuniorJBL]

Thanks Rob.

Maybe I am talking electrically in phase, not sure. Am I reading the Schematic for the 1400 XO properly?

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?10643-1400-Array&p=121868&viewfull=1#post121868

Doesn't the w/blk stripe always go to the black terminal on JBL drivers? Maybe I am just confused! Highly probable.:banghead:

[Robh3606]

Doesn't the w/blk stripe always go to the black terminal on JBL drivers? Maybe I am just confused! Highly probable.:banghead:


No not always, also the schematics vary from acoustic polarity like the 1400 Array one to actual driver polarities. No consistency. Don't forget that JBL doctrine was opposite the industry standard so a +V on a +T equals a -CM. Not like everywhere else where a +V on a +T equals a +CM. That should clear things up.

V= Voltage T= Terminal CM= Cone Motion + Cone Motion means outward Away from the Frame

Don't worry we will get it done.

Rob:)

[JuniorJBL]

Thank You Rob!!:)

[Mr. Widget]

Here is a short section of the review from Stereophile.I can't believe you would quote JA. To hear some on this forum speak, Stereophile is worth less than toilet paper. ;)

That plot shows just how well "time aligned" these speakers are... (for those less technically inclined, the speaker is far from being "time aligned"... the tweeter is clearly far ahead of everybody else) funny how just a couple of decades back in the Dahlquist, Kef 105, B+W 801 days, everyone touted "time alignment" as being required for good imaging. Live and learn. :bouncy:


Sorry, I guess that was OT.

Thanks for the pointers Rob, if I ever go Be with my clones, I'll be scouring these threads!


Widget

[SEAWOLF97]

I can't believe you would quote JA. To hear some on this forum speak, Stereophile is worth less than toilet paper. ;)

Widget

John is one of the few from that mag that deals in facts and doesn't act like a shill.

[Robh3606]

I can't believe you would quote JA. To hear some on this forum speak, Stereophile is worth less than toilet paper. ;)

Hello Widget

To each their own. I respect his measurements, I think he does a good job and generally is pretty fair overall is his assessment of them. His measurements are the main reason I subscribe as at least you have both sides of the story so to speak.

Rob:)

[JeffW]

I think the winky smilie was a subtle nod towards JA/Stereophile. Widget wasn't saying he thought you believed Stereophile was toilet paper, just that a lot here do.

I took his post more as a jab towards the cult of the perfectly time aligned, and using JA's measurements as evidence that a good speaker can be something other than perfectly time aligned.

[Robh3606]

I think the winky smilie was a subtle nod towards JA/Stereophile. Widget wasn't saying he thought you believed Stereophile was toilet paper, just that a lot here do.

Hello Jeff

I got that :D and I agree on your second point.

Rob:)

[DavidF]

I can't believe you would quote JA. To hear some on this forum speak, Stereophile is worth less than toilet paper. ;)

That plot shows just how well "time aligned" these speakers are... (for those less technically inclined, the speaker is far from being "time aligned"... the tweeter is clearly far ahead of everybody else) funny how just a couple of decades back in the Dahlquist, Kef 105, B+W 801 days, everyone touted "time alignment" as being required for good imaging. Live and learn. :bouncy:


Sorry, I guess that was OT.

Thanks for the pointers Rob, if I ever go Be with my clones, I'll be scouring these threads!


Widget

This is the same test article where JA states (confesses?) that he has been a fan of Greg Timbers since meeting him back circa 1981! Could'a knocked me over with a feather when I read that quote. I re-read the article the next morning after leaving the page open all night for a suitable break-in period... and I was still stunned.

[Titanium Dome]

This is the same test article where JA states (confesses?) that he has been a fan of Greg Timbers since meeting him back circa 1981! Could'a knocked me over with a feather when I read that quote. I re-read the article the next morning after leaving the page open all night for a suitable break-in period... and I was still stunned.

I can't imagine anyone who's met Greg Timbers not being a fan.

[Mr. Widget]

This is the same test article where JA states (confesses?) that he has been a fan of Greg Timbers since meeting him back circa 1981! Could'a knocked me over with a feather when I read that quote. I re-read the article the next morning after leaving the page open all night for a suitable break-in period... and I was still stunned.A friend recently had some uber expensive caps put in an amp of his... he was told to really listen after 100 hours of break in. :screwy:

I wonder, do magazines read better after 100 hours of break in. ;)

Sorry, just feeling a bit testy today... I forgot to save a rather long and cumbersome document I had prepared and have been recreating it all day.

I personally have never met JA, but I do respect his knowledge and integrity... there are many others who are well published who leave me scratching my head. As to the comment about "time alignment"... back in the day I did it too. It most certainly will affect the sound and absolutely will allow a speaker to measure better, but damn if these time misfit horn systems don't sound pretty damned fine and many of the newer ones even image shockingly well. Must have more to do with early reflections and rooms than the phase/time issues.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

I can't imagine anyone who's met Greg Timbers not being a fan.What he said. :D


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

A friend recently had some uber expensive caps put in an amp of his... he was told to really listen after 100 hours of break in. :screwy:

I wonder, do magazines read better after 100 hours of break in. ;)


Widget

Muhahaha,

But how can you argue that charge coupling capacitors in a crossover network and the effect it has does not amount to the same thing?

Assuming a voltage differential is applied to a capacitor that is in some form inside the open loop feedback path of an amplifier then it may well change its characteristics as do the Solen capacitors in charge coupled JBL networks. I am sure you will not disagree with GT on that score.