Value, Perception, Ethics, and more...

[Mr. Widget]

I am starting this thread because it seems to bring up a very interesting (to me at least) notion of value and perception. The quote below is from a thread discussing DVD Players.


No. The analog section is actually quite good compared to others of considerably higher price. It's not as clear as the dedicated stereo outs on the BDP-83, but not much is except the SE edition and some VERY expensive alternatives. Shucks, you can spend $3500 on the new Lexicon and get a standard BDP-83 inside, not even the SE!So when is a $3500 DVD player or speaker or whatever worth $3500. The Lexicon BD-30 has a $500 Oppo player inside a new heavier and possibly nicer looking chassis. Is it a rip off to put one brand of player in another chassis? The high end projector company, Runco has done that in the past with certain projectors and displays. I am sure others have done it as well... then there are cable manufacturers who take copper and put a cool jacket around it and in some cases charge a crazy amount of money for it. Is it unethical? Possibly, but I think it depends on how it is done. If in the process people are intentionally deceived, I feel that is unethical, if however the product is offered as the quality piece it is and offered at a high price, is that inherently evil? I am not so sure.

Our Audio and Video systems are purchased to bring pleasure to us, right? It has been proven that simply increasing the price of an object makes us enjoy it more... therefore someone's unobtainium cables costing a hundred dollars a meter will probably bring them more joy than my 15 cents a foot basic copper wire.

Below is an interesting excerpt from some studies on perception and wine. I believe our enjoyment of audio closely follows this... there are certainly better amps, speakers, DVD players, possibly even wires, but we really need to be objective if we want the highest performance without spending money needlessly. One of the most "ear opening" experiences I ever had was when I listened to three different speaker systems in JBL's double blind speaker shuffler room.


Widget



"You sit down at your table and order your meal. The waiter then comes back with a bottle of wine and tells you that it’s on the house. They’re running a promotion for a new cabernet from, of all places, North Dakota. You haven’t heard of the wine but what the heck, it’s free. What would you think of it? Not much, as it turns out. At least not as much as if you were told the wine was from California. In fact, thinking the wine was from North Dakota, you’d drink less of it, and would even eat less of your food.

This sneaky experiment was conducted by Brian Wansink and his colleagues, and it’s not alone. There are now many experiments showing that your impressions of a wine can be influenced by information far from your tongue. In one particularly entertaining example, French wine experts were asked to sniff the same white wine twice, once when presented the wine with its original color, and then again, after the wine had been secretly tinted red. Despite smelling the same wine twice in a row, the experts described the red-tinted sample as having characteristics typical of red wines (raspberry, spicy, peppery). This is good to know for the next time you have red wine fans visiting, but only have white on hand.



Being fooled by wine trickery isn’t your fault, it’s your brain’s. Last year, a brain scanning study showed that when subjects sipped what they thought was an expensive ($90) cabernet, they not only enjoyed it more, their brains’ “pleasantness centers” (medial orbitofrontal cortex) reacted more strongly. You drink what you think."

Wine Study (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sensory-superpowers/200908/you-drink-what-you-think)

[Steve0616]

So that's it? We are paying for a feeling? Reduced to the barest of simplicity then.... I guess if it takes a high price to produce the feeling we want......then we simply pay it, if that's what it takes.

[BMWCCA]

My brain must be wired differently. I enjoy my equipment more knowing I didn't pay that much for any of it. Half-new-price is my max, apparently. I'm sure my brain's "pleasantness center" reacts quite strongly whenever I play my $200 L7s with my $100 Crown PS-400 and my $150 Soundcraftsmen Pro-Control Four, using my $36 H-K DVD player as the source. That's a nice $500 system.

But I understand the concept even if I don't think the satisfaction I get from driving a BMW comes just from the price!

Unless it's because I only paid $3,500 for my 525i 5-speed. Two-Buck Chuck anyone?

[cosmos]

Is there a deception? Did they say it is something it wasn't? Those are key questions.

Many car manufacturers use mostly the same parts and same assembly line to build upscale car lines as they do the lower "standard" level offering. A Honda may be followed by an Acura on the same line with almost entirely the same parts. Is that deception?

Satisfaction is a funny thing in a fickle world. We'll spend hours debating the purchase of a $1200 refrigerator or TV, but buy a car almost without consternation..

End result, if you're happy with a purchase, great. If not, did you ask the right questions? Were you deceived or did you just fail to do due diligence?

Using another companies component in the manufacture of a product is not grounds for deception. Using a known defective product in a manufactured product is at least negligence if not deception or fraud.

If one overpays for a product, it is ultimately their fault for not checking around prior to purchase. Yes, we often pay for convenience or a "feeling". The 2 liter of Coke at a carry out for $1.89 is identical to the 2 liter of coke across the street at Krogers for 99 cents.. Is that deception?

[toddalin]

My brain must be wired differently. I enjoy my equipment more knowing I didn't pay that much for any of it. Half-new-price is my max, apparently.


Probably the same principal. You enjoy it more because you want to enjoy it more or feel that you should enjoy it more, not because it is inheritantly better (or cheaper).

[scott fitlin]

It is the responsibility of the consumer to know prices of items, and what they are shopping. One who does the research on what to buy for a particular application or need, ends up purchasing something that will work properly.

Another who shops by the " If it cost more, IT MUST BE BETTER " ends up making mistakes, sometimes very costly mistakes, and winds up with something that may not work properly or satisfactory for them at all!

But, we are a status driven society, and labels and pricetags sometimes are the basis of our purchasing decisions, instead of really knowing what or where to buy.

[BMWCCA]

Probably the same principal. You enjoy it more because you want to enjoy it more or feel that you should enjoy it more, not because it is inheritantly better (or cheaper).

Well, the study showed folks "enjoyed" the wine more if they thought it was more expensive. Yes, perhaps the same principal that makes me enjoy my stuff because it's cheap. But then I know it's cheap, they were just being tricked. I wouldn't expect my system to sound better just because I'd paid double what it cost me. I somehow doubt the winos would enjoy the expensive wine more if they were told it was the same as the cheap stuff but they were just being charged more. That's pretty much the principle of the Lexicon, at least it would be for those of us reading the review RD linked to.

That's like saying Tiger enjoyed sex more with his chippies than his wife because he hadn't split his assets with them.

Or was it because he knew it could cost him half his assets if he got caught??

:blink:

[rdgrimes]

Is it unethical? Possibly, but I think it depends on how it is done. If in the process people are intentionally deceived, I feel that is unethical, if however the product is offered as the quality piece it is and offered at a high price, is that inherently evil?
Terms like "ethical", "evil", "moral" and "deceptive" can be bandied about and mean different things to different people. If you ask 1000 people whether they are "honest", 1000 will say yes and 500 will be lying. Of the remaining 500, 250 will think they are honest but lie on a regular basis. It's all a question of circumstances.

If you're selling some gear, are you "ethically responsible" to inform a potential buyer that the gear could be had for much less elsewhere? If you're buying, are you obligated to inform the seller that the gear is worth much more? Yes, no, maybe?

In the case of Lexicon, some degree of deception has been proved but mostly it's a case of just leaving out relevant details. They are not the first or the last. In this case it's more a matter of degrees than of anything else. Charging $3000 retail for an aluminum box is a bit steep by anyone's standards, UNLESS you're an installer who buys the player for $1500 and marks it up to $2500 - telling the buyer he got it for $1000 off. Then it seems like a very fair deal. Is the fact that that installer could have offered the $500 Oppo with a fee for delivery and setup relevant? Does the buyer even care? What will that installer say to his buyer when the buyer goes online and reads about the "real" player inside that aluminum box? Does the installer even KNOW the facts? Maybe, maybe not. Is Lexicon "responsible" for putting the installer in that position?

There's always enough blame to go around in those situations, and it's always the buyer's responsibility to know what he's buying. Charging "whatever the market will bear" for anything is the rule, not the exception.

[Ducatista47]

The fact that perception is so subjective and complex is enough to render these issues a permanent gray area. I personally think that an expensive cable sale requires two parties, a less than genuine sales/marketing force and a gullible buyer. To one degree or another, con men (just look at these "facts") and marks (I so want to believe, for whatever reasons, what you are telling me, even if it defies reason, evidence to the contrary and common sense).

But take science, good or bad science, out of the equation all together and you have only human behavior left. There is no doubt in my mind that the world class but under priced little integrated amp I have would have sold in larger numbers if it had cost more. I'm more like BMW, but there are a ton of buyers with more money than sense - even in this economy. Read my signature below.

I personally think this goes off the tracks as soon as anything not having to do with the sound produced - the core function of audio equipment in our examples - is given any consideration. The first level I notice is when anyone cares what speakers and electronics look like. After that the slope is steep and slippery, but you are already sliding down it.

Clark

[Mr. Widget]

UNLESS you're an installer who buys the player for $1500 and marks it up to $2500 - telling the buyer he got it for $1000 off. Then it seems like a very fair deal. Is the fact that that installer could have offered the $500 Oppo with a fee for delivery and setup relevant? Does the buyer even care? What will that installer say to his buyer when the buyer goes online and reads about the "real" player inside that aluminum box? Does the installer even KNOW the facts? Maybe, maybe not. Is Lexicon "responsible" for putting the installer in that position?Excellent point, however I believe most customers who buy the Accura instead of the Honda, the Lexicon instead of the Oppo want to believe that they bought a better product and that the better service came along for free. Some people are perfectly happy to pay for the services they use, but most seem to want that little extra without believing they are actually paying for it.

As one who does sell Lexicon and other high end products, if our customer wants a $199 Blu-ray player or an entry level LCD TV that can be easily purchased at Best Buy or for a few bucks less on-line, we suggest that our customers buy them from the source of their choice and we will install and set them up... that way when it breaks we don't have to go to their home and set up a replacement on the Saturday night before Super Bowl Sunday. When you do "pay too much" for a product like the Lexicon, you typically get a dealer who will show up with a replacement for that birthday party or the big game.


But that wasn't really why I started this thread. The idea of two players being essentially identical, but not necessarily being perceived as such got my mind wrapped around perception. As a fellow enthusiast I am far more interested in our perception and our ability to make useful decisions when auditioning audio gear.


My brain must be wired differently. I enjoy my equipment more knowing I didn't pay that much for any of it. While I really, really love exceptional quality, whether it is in a car, a home, or even an every day item like a drinking glass, I understand what you are talking about. A few months back I was using a pair of Revel Performa F32s... a really well made excellent smallish floor standing speaker that retails for about $4,000 a pair. I really like their simple styling and the sound quality is quite good. While I had them in my home I came across a pair of ADS L910s for free. These are missing the stands and the cabinets are rather beat, but after a week or two of comparing the two, I decided I liked them sonically about as well... I preferred the styling of the Revels, and yet I kept the free speakers because I got a great sense of joy every time I listened to them and knowing their story.

...and another anecdote. A friend who was using Pass Labs XVR crossovers in a multi-amped system just switched over to a Marchand tube unit. I haven't heard the Marchand in his system yet, but he claims it is better sounding. It very well may be. The Pass Labs cost in the $8-10K range. The Marchand was about $2K. While on the surface this flies in the face of the psychologists and their wine studies, but realize he is a tube fan and the Pass Labs were the only solid state devices in his audio signal chain. Does this confirm tubes sound better? Does this confirm that a powerfully held audio belief is stronger than a belief in monetary value? It doesn't prove anything, but it certainly raises some interesting questions.

Widget

[Mr. Widget]

I wouldn't expect my system to sound better just because I'd paid double what it cost me. No, I think what Todd is saying is that it may be that you expect your system to be better because others in the past had paid a lot for the same thing, and you enjoy yours even more because you didn't.

I'd suggest this is potentially agreeing with the wine studies. The people fooled by the $90 a bottle wine hadn't paid for it, they just got to "experience" it.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

I personally think that an expensive cable sale requires two parties, a less than genuine sales/marketing force and a gullible buyer.I give at least some of the cable pushers the benefit of the doubt and assume they too have been conned. I also vacillate on this topic at times and try to be open to the possibility that maybe some one will bring me a cable that actually makes a positive audible difference. I used to doubt my own hearing. No longer... if I can't hear it, it doesn't matter what others claim. So far I have heard some crazy expensive cables... none that I would use. (or promote)


I personally think this goes off the tracks as soon as anything not having to do with the sound produced - the core function of audio equipment in our examples - is given any consideration. The first level I notice is when anyone cares what speakers and electronics look like. After that the slope is steep and slippery, but you are already sliding down it.I see your point, but since the speakers will be visible in my home, I will not live with that which offends my eyes. As far as electronics etc. If ugly sounds better to me, I'll use it, but it may be buried in a cabinet. ;)


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

Everyone deludes himself/herself in many ways every day. This certainly includes everyone on this site, including those who rationalize "my choice" as better, which is usually limited by opportunity and desire more than anything else. Clark and I are equally delusional, but we're at different points on the delusional continuum. :D

When it comes to value, I beat the bushes looking for it, which mostly means an unbeatable deal, better performance, and higher quality. The price point is relevant only if it exceeds my ability to pay. I had to pay MAP for my first JBLs, but haven't paid full price since then.

Every JBL I've purchased since has been a better value (deal, performance, and quality), even as costs have climbed. It's no secret that part of my delusion is that today's mid- and high-end products beat the value of the old stuff.

The search for value definitely has changed my perception about what I like. From L100 to L7 to Performance Series to Synthesis® One Array (and all the stuff in between), my perceptions of what's acceptable keep growing. I like many, many sounds. If it pleases me, I'll get it if the value equation is right, even if I already have too much stuff, and even if I think I already have the (almost) perfect system.

Ethics require two parties to be meaningful. In the case of JBL/Harman, the One Array has JBL parts, Lexicon parts, BSS Audio parts, StraightWire parts, ATI parts, and Belkin parts; nevertheless, they all represent as JBL Syntehsis®. Is this unethical? After all, isn't JBL just dropping a Lexicon chassis into its own case? :hmm:

I'm pretty sure all Synthesis® dealers are told where the actual pieces come from (i.e., the SDP-5 is a rebadged MC-8, the SDEC is London Soundweb, etc.), so perhaps it's the dealer who's unethical if he/she holds back that info?

I'm pretty sure that most people scrutinize their expenditures, regardless of economic standing, despite our general "the masses are asses" attitude toward consumers: gullible fools who waste money. I think it's important to separate "gullible" from "ignorant."

A gullible person is going to get hoodwinked time after time, regardless of the intervention of wise people like on this forum. An ignorant person will only suffer if he/she allows himself/herself to remain ignorant. It took me no time at all to change my ignorance about where various Synthesis® gear came from, even before I spoke to a dealer. This knowledge helped me in my quest to get the most for the least.

Some folks here were concerned that maybe I'd paid too much, that if I paid over a certain amount or a certain percentage of retail, that I'd been hoodwinked (gullible) or a victim of poor pre-purchase research (ignorant). Most assuredly, I got a better deal than anyone here can imagine. So is it possible that I, the consumer, was unethical in dealing with the dealer?

Here's a dilemma for sure. We don't want the dealer to screw us, but we don't mind screwing the dealer (or seller). It's the dealer's job to watch out, not ours. That's hypocritical, of course. It flows both ways. In the end, did both parties get what they needed out of the transaction? Was there an open and candid negotiation in the process? Did both parties know the details of the deal? If so, then money is irrelevant. Who cares if the (nearly) identical item can be had for less? All the shrieking Jeremah's in the world won't change the value, perception, or ethics of the transaction. They'll only serve to inject FUD into a situation they mistakenly think they're clarifying.

Honestly, most people do not need to be protected by erstwhile know-it-alls like me (and some of you :p ). Value (deals, performance, quality) changes daily. Perception is personal, despite our attempts to mold perception through peer pressure. Ethics is a two-way street, and both manufacturers/dealers and consumers can be found on either side of the road.

I enjoy these discussions, and I hope that Lexicon sells a ton of its BD-30 players to happy consumers. If JBL Synthesis® had one in black for $2500, I'd dump my junky ol' Oppo BDP-83SE, get an authorized JBL dealer to sell me one for $1250, and feel good in the bargain.

Thankfully, Synthesis® doesn't sell source equipment (yet), so my gullible and/or ignorant self is safe from that exploitation. :rotfl:

[Mr. Widget]

I'm pretty sure all Synthesis® dealers are told where the actual pieces come from (i.e., the SDP-5 is a rebadged MC-8, the SDEC is London Soundweb, etc.), so perhaps it's the dealer who's unethical if he/she holds back that info?Actually that is not the case. Manufacturers make their pitch to dealers and dealers make theirs to their customers. Better dealers are more knowledgeable and hopefully more ethical. The JBL Synthesis gear is considered Synthesis and is generally not an exact clone of something else, however in many cases the differences are simply to make the system integrate into a whole better. The origin of the internals is not disclosed to dealers, but in the case of the SDEC, the BSS part number is part of each Synthesis serial number. When I asked why the Synthesis units were so expensive compared to the BSS, I was told it is due to the fact that BSS charges JBL a lot for the modified units.

As for who is fooling whom, when I went to CEDIA last September as a Harman High Performance AV Dealer (JBL Synthesis, Mark Levinson, Revel, Lexicon) I was alerted to the fact that there was internet buzz about the Oppo/Lexicon issue. I was also told that the new Lexicon player was not simply a rebadged player. Did the rep knowingly lie to me? Was he misled? Was that a truthful statement? The software is certainly at least slightly different, after all when you power up the Lexicon, the splash screen says Lexicon and not Oppo. Obviously this alone does not make it a different player. Is the Lexicon an improved version of the Oppo? I really do not know. I will be comparing both of them and time will tell if one is more reliable than the other. All that aside, I have no concerns about the quality of either the Oppo or the Lexicon. They are both superb. Should they both exist? Why not? Is Lexicon pulling a fast one? I don't know, I suppose as long as they only make the claim that they are selling an excellent player what is the harm in that... there are certainly other brands selling inferior products for even more money.

But again, I find our perception of value the more interesting subject. In this case, it would appear that while Lexicon is putting a $15 bottle of wine in a $90 bottle, at least they are picking an excellent $15 bottle of wine to begin with. :D

Back in the early 80s while touring the Threshold plant I noticed several pieces that had special edition name plates. I don't remember the exact name, but it was, Ultra, Special, SE, or something like that. I asked what those were about and was told that they were specifically for the Japanese market. The distributor there wanted special merchandise and so they were created. Internally there was no difference, but the special nameplate did in fact make them "special."


Widget

[mikebake]

Bruce Edgar says "you see what you hear, and you hear what you see".

[Mr. Widget]

Value (deals, performance, quality) changes daily.Especially when dealing with technology as we are... a $60,000 CRT projector of a few years ago simply can't compete with a new $5,000 projector. But there are people who will cherish that 300lbs monster that they picked up for $200.

Fortunately speakers and amps haven't changed as much as most other devices, a once top of the line pro logic surround receiver has almost no utility today, but a pair of excellent vintage speakers are still pretty damned good and a basic power amp that is up to spec is just as good today as it ever was.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

Bruce Edgar says "you see what you hear, and you hear what you see".Hmmm... I like the way some of his speakers sound but I find them pretty crude looking... how does that work?:D

Fortunately with music, you can still close your eyes and just listen.


Widget

[jcrobso]

As I read this thread I kept thing about the Emperors New Cloths.

Yes, there were ways to work around the old JBL price fixing.

We all know that there are companies that pray on consumers like "B" speakers and "M" cables and many others.

Yes, JBL speakers have always cost more than other speakers, but they stand the test of time. I had to scrimp and save over several years to get my first JBLs, they are now 42 years old and sound great! Even though I did take some heat from my wife and a couple of friends, that fact that they last so long she finialy understood.

Sadly the old phrase "Let the buyer beware" still applies.
There are those that like to brag how MUCH they paid, 110% of retail so it must be good.

One of the things I like about this forum is that we all have one thing in common we like JBL speakers, we have different ideas about which ones sound the best, but we like JBL.
We also have different size pockets and this determines our funding ability.
I have tried to have champagne sound system on a beer budget.

Repackaging has been going on a long time! Remember the Oldsmobile with the Chevy engines and some were very upset to find a Chevy engine in there Olds? Japanese companies they have been doing this for years.
Advertising is building value in the buyers mind whether it exisits or not and then is it ethical?

[jcrobso]

Especially when dealing with technology as we are... a $60,000 CRT projector of a few years ago simply can't compete with a new $5,000 projector. But there are people who will cherish that 300lbs monster that they picked up for $200.

Fortunately speakers and amps haven't changed as much as most other devices, a once top of the line pro logic surround receiver has almost no utility today, but a pair of excellent vintage speakers are still pretty damned good and a basic power amp that is up to spec is just as good today as it ever was.


Widget
That 40+ year old speakers still sound good to day.
Technology changes so fast today that most things are outdated by the time you get them home and out of the box.:blink:

[scott fitlin]

That 40+ year old speakers still sound good to day.
Technology changes so fast today that most things are outdated by the time you get them home and out of the box.:blink:You know this is an excellent point. Years ago I knew that certain brands cost a bit more, some ALOT more, but, that they were trustworthy brand names. And when they said it was better, and you bought it, it usually was.

Nowadays, it irks me to no end that companies release a product, announce it as PREMIUM, and 3 months later, they are announcing yet the NEW LATEST PREMIUM TECHNOLOGY.

Not to mention when something is launched in the marketplace BEFORE it is really ready to be available. Windows7 comes to mind.

These days, though, I do pay much closer attention to the details of what a product actually is, does it really make the difference they claim, does it work as well as they claim, and DOES IT WARRANT THE EXPENDITURE?

At todays prices, I pay attention to what the products are, or aren't.

[midlife]

Patient shoppers get good deals and enjoy. Not so patient shoppers pay a bit more and enjoy.

[Mr. Widget]

Patient shoppers get good deals and enjoy. Not so patient shoppers pay a bit more and enjoy.There is so much more to it than just that.

Look at the wristwatch market. Some people buy very expensive watches that are less accurate than less expensive makes and others buy knock off name brands. Then there are the Lexicon/Oppos of the watch world. I am sure there are numerous watches at varying price points with exactly the same mechanisms in them...

I have a mechanical watch that I enjoy quite a lot even though it is less accurate than the electronic one it replaced. What makes us tick. :)


Widget

[SEAWOLF97]

Look at the wristwatch market. Some people buy very expensive watches that are less accurate than less expensive makes and others buy knock off name brands.

I have a mechanical watch that I enjoy quite a lot even though it is less accurate than the electronic one it replaced. What makes us tick. :)

Widget

watch accuracy ?

that brings up the old logic problem....

2 watches ....#1 loses a second a month ...#2 doesnt even run

which is MORE accurate ??????

#2 is spot on ...twice a day ...#1 is "right" once every XX years.

mechanical analog watches have the ability to give a representation of periods of time duration between 2 set times where digi's do not, important to some (I have NO digi watches - only mech Omegas, but in retirement only wear a watch infrequently)

[Mr. Widget]

watch accuracy ?Watches that receive a signal from an atomic clock are the most accurate... but are not necessarily digital or particularly expensive or even all that well made.

Here are some: http://www.atomicwatches.com/

But we are getting Off Topics. ;)


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

Manufactures have been using common transports, chip sets and other generic parts for a couple decades, this started in audio with the Cd player.

I might accept this at the bottom end of the market but the perception is really what the technically less astute consumer assumes as re badging where other aspects of the component are modified or radically different. A case in point is are the new Denon and Marantz TOL universal players as discussed in a recent UK HiFi magazine review.

[toddalin]

watch accuracy ?

that brings up the old logic problem....

2 watches ....#1 loses a second a month ...#2 doesnt even run

which is MORE accurate ??????

#2 is spot on ...twice a day ...#1 is "right" once every XX years.




Is it really?

What if it's stuck with the hour hand straight up and the minute hand is straight down. What time is it then?

[scott fitlin]

There is so much more to it than just that.

Look at the wristwatch market. Some people buy very expensive watches that are less accurate than less expensive makes and others buy knock off name brands. Then there are the Lexicon/Oppos of the watch world. I am sure there are numerous watches at varying price points with exactly the same mechanisms in them...

I have a mechanical watch that I enjoy quite a lot even though it is less accurate than the electronic one it replaced. What makes us tick. :)


WidgetI, myself, buy watches based on looks. I mean to me, as long as I have more or less the correct time + - 1 minute, for me watches are about looks, and I love my Hublot.

Jewelry, :D

[Titanium Dome]

I don't own a watch. For me the value is zero; my perception is that time is available almost everywhere or from anyone, thus making it unnecessary for me to keep it; and I believe it is ethical to get the time for free from willing watch bearers who want to show off their watches by showing me the time. It's win-win! ;)

[Robh3606]

Watches that receive a signal from an atomic clock are the most accurate

Just use your cell phone for the time.

Rob:)

[scott fitlin]

I don't own a watch. For me the value is zero; my perception is that time is available almost everywhere or from anyone, thus making it unnecessary for me to keep it; and I believe it is ethical to get the time for free from willing watch bearers who want to show off their watches by showing me the time. It's win-win! ;):applaud:

[1audiohack]

Originally Posted by Mr. Widget

One of the most "ear opening" experiences I ever had was when I listened to three different speaker systems in JBL's double blind speaker shuffler room.


I would like to hear a little about that experience.

At our little company we make, build, sell and maintain expensive things, racing engines costing close to $65,000.00 USD, transaxles up to $53,000, GM Turbo 400's that cost as much as $18,500.00 and 9" Ford's up to $6,800.00. Seems crazy I know but that's what it takes to run up front reliably in Trophy Truck off road, and more than a fair amount of talent!

What some consider a valuable necessity others will scoff at and that is OK. We buy what we want because we can, you're dead a long time!

What I do causes me to look at manufactured things differently than most of the people I know outside my industry. For instance a J&E or Cosworth Racing piston is beautiful and to me a work of art and there is a hell of a lot more to it than meets the eye, they cost over $200.00 per each with out pins or rings. A bevel gearset, like a 9" hypoid is the most difficult of all gears to design, develop and produce, the proccess takes on average over a year, the running pattern under load is still beyond computation, it must be developed by an intelligent human being. Again to me that is art. This is not at all unlike a great loudspeaker system.

I look at the current and past high line and top shelf JBL (and others) as art. It may be mass produced, but the effort and the intelligence required to create something exceptional will catch my attension. The fact they reproduce music makes it all the better. I just love well built stuff that sounds good!

On perceptions, the first time I saw a big black Krell amp with the cover off it was obvious to me, (no I am not an EE), that it was a cost no object design, I looked at it for some time and could not think of one thing that could be done nicer and or built better. I just love that kind of thing and I attach high value it. I didn't even have to hear it to want one, or two. On the other hand (not a knock, just different) I have seen and heard a couple of Steve Schell's setups and also his manufacturing partners system and really liked that stuff. His drivers are truley super cool, massive, well machined, beautifully wound and built. I thought it was awsome that he had old metal can electric motor start capacitors in the cross-overs and magnet wire from amp to speaker. I don't know about the "see what you hear and hear what you see" thing, they sounded way different and better than I thought they would.

On free things, I have a TAG Formula 1 watch that one of my very best friends gave to me as a gift, I would never have bought it for myself. I love the thing more than I would have ever imagined, the weight and quality of it is apparent every time I wear it. Would I enjoy it more or would it mean more to me if I bought it with my own money? I very seriously doubt it. Yeah I have to set the date on months less than 31 days and it does not have a light, and I don't care.

There is a ton of audio products and hoopla that I just don't buy into, things some of you may consider necessary and relevant, I'm greatful for the freedom to do as I please and not have to care what anyone thinks about it. I do believe education is the key to not getting fleeced!

This topic has made me think more about it than I have for some time, I am glad for me that my audio journey is still consuming! It is a great joy to me.

All the best.

[Mr. Widget]

Just use your cell phone for the time.yep, that is what most kids do... they use their phones as their stereos too. :D

Scotty was right, watches are really basically jewelry... speaking of percieved value, why is white gold worth more than other white metals that don't tarnish? Perception of value? ;)


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

I would like to hear a little about that experience.Don McRitchie discussed the room on one of his threads describing a Lansing Heritage trip to Northridge. I believe it has also been discussed in a couple of publications by or about Dr. Floyd Toole.

At JBL's facility in Northridge they have a listening room where multiple speakers can be auditioned behind a wall of black grille cloth. The rig very quickly and quietly shuffles one speaker after another into the same exact location in a random and double blind manner.


The day I was there we listened to three speakers. We were not told what they would be, but we knew a least some if not all would be JBLs and perhaps Revels. Upon listening to these speakers I was immediately made aware of my lack of visual cues... I had never thought about it before, but having no idea what we were listening to really opens your head up. Were we listening to some $400 JBLs with vinyl clad boxes or where they Everests? I had no idea... we had note paper to write down comments and our ears and that was it. What follows is my personal opinion... even though I was not biased by marketing, brand loyalty, or appearance, it is still only my opinion. Someone else might feel differently about the listening session. Of the three speakers two were quite similar in over all quality. I liked the bass slightly better in one, the midbass and UHF in the other... the third speaker was not the same overall quality of the other two. I didn't like the bass and the mids were quite honky sounding. I feared it might be a high end JBL horn system... I feared I'd be very disappointed what they might turn out to be.

It turned out my favorite of the three was not a Harman product. It cost twice as much as my next favorite which turned out to be the 1400 Array and it was a very, very close second... this experience sold me on that speaker. The 1400 Array was smooth and detailed with absolutely no trace of midrange honk... it had tight tuneful deep bass and the dynamic qualities we all love about these speakers. I am still considering getting them or their Synthesis brethren for my own living room.

The real standout though, was the honky sounding speaker with poor bass that I had feared was a JBL... it turned out to be a Martin Logan that cost about the same as the JBL. I never would have guessed.


Widget

[scott fitlin]

speaking of percieved value, why is white gold worth more than other white metals that don't tarnish? Perception of value? ;)


WidgetI don't know myself.

The precious metal people flip for, and is SUPER expensive, is platinum, but to me, platinum doesn't look different than white gold.

But people pay some serious bucks for platinum chains.

[Allanvh5150]

Rhodium peaked at around 10K per ounce in '98. It is what "white gold" is plated with.....I tend not to want value, I want what I like. Did you pick your spouse for good value?

:)

[Titanium Dome]

Er, Allan...

You have a PM. :)

[4313B]

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/01/blu-ray-maker-re-boxes-500-player-charges-3500/

I just read this article and my reaction is pretty straightforward.

Lexicon is apparently Epic Fail. :barf: :rotfl:

[jcrobso]

Is Lexicon the new Mon$tor cable???:banghead:

[Mr. Widget]

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/01/blu-ray-maker-re-boxes-500-player-charges-3500/

I just read this article and my reaction is pretty straightforward.

Lexicon is apparently Epic Fail. :barf: :rotfl:Perhaps... I suppose if you buy a Lexicon player because you know that they were a very early developer of digital technology and therefore assume the new BD-30 should be both ground breaking and unique, you would feel pretty burned and rightfully so.

However, if you buy a Cadillac SUV instead of the Chevy because you like the bling, are you being ripped off?


I found this comment from the blog that followed that story most telling: "I can’t imagine how any Blu-ray player would be worth $3500. Even $500 is stretching it a bit."

We all have differing perception of value... for me, if the Oppo had no better video performance than a $200 Pioneer, but only brought it's very fast load time, that would be worth the $500!


Widget

[mikebake]

One of my big themes back in the days of the Midwest Audiofest was that peoples perception of sound had MUCH to do with their visual/mental impression of the speakers appearance. Blind testing seemed to bear this out rather strongly. "Audiophiles" did not like having to judge a speaker if they were not able to look at it. They might be praising something cheap or not in vogue. They didn't want to render an opinion unless the could see it. The opposite of this would be someone who prefers the speaker that simply sounds good.
Edit;
Oh, I see you also touched on this above.

Hmmm... I like the way some of his speakers sound but I find them pretty crude looking... how does that work?:D

Fortunately with music, you can still close your eyes and just listen.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

One of my big themes back in the days of the Midwest Audiofest was that peoples perception of sound had MUCH to do with their visual/mental impression of the speakers appearance. Blind testing seemed to bear this out rather strongly. "Audiophiles" did not like having to judge a speaker if they were not able to look at it. They might be praising something cheap or not in vogue. They didn't want to render an opinion unless the could see it. The opposite of this would be someone who prefers the speaker that simply sounds good.This I can get my head around and I believe is exactly to the point. If cable A looks cooler than cable B, and costs more, it must sound better, right?


Unfortunately with loudspeakers, at least for some people and I am in this group, the speaker is typically a design element in your listening/living room. While I think several of the newer Wilson loudspeakers sound quite good, I simply wouldn't tolerate them in my home unless I had a scrim wall or redesigned the aesthetics of them... the fact that I also can't afford them makes the decision an easy one.


Widget

[SEAWOLF97]

Rhodium peaked at around 10K per ounce in '98. It is what "white gold" is plated with....
:)


Ummm...not really. I've done a little studying of gold ...most that you see is 14k or 14/24ths gold.... ONLY 58% gold, 42% sometimes unknown......white gold is USUALLY 18k and the "whiteness" is produced with the addition of silver....you can buy green colored gold made by the same process....other colors may even be available.
My wif is Asian and they trade mostly in 24k (pure)...the pieces of 24k that she has bought for me are a little reddish and some jewelry stores ask (before they touch) if they are copper. 24k is so soft that they could not produce my ring at less than an ounce of material...it came in at 1 tael. the chain at 2.

The rings that I have bought for her are 18k white ...she gets a lot of complements...we had to have them cast, not normally an "off the shelf" item....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tael

In Vietnam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam), all domestic transactions in gold are still expressed in tael and real estate prices are often quoted in taels of gold rather than the local currency over concerns over monetary inflation. One tael of gold = 1.20556 troy ounces = 37.5 grams.

Vietnam traditionally had unreliable banks and a person converted their cash to gold , and the safest place to keep it is to wear it...they have great goldsmiths.


Did you pick your spouse for good value?
:)

among other qualities ...yes.


yes, I know...OT.

[SEAWOLF97]

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/01/blu-ray-maker-re-boxes-500-player-charges-3500/

Blu-ray Maker Re-Boxes $500 Player, Charges $3,500

the Lexicon is THX certed, where the Oppo isnt :o:


"The test shed more light on the THX certification process than on the players themselves. The units tested almost identically, no different than had they been two examples of the same model (which, really, they are). So that’s what an extra $3,000 buys you: a THX label and a new, aluminum faceplate. Audioholics has the whole scandal detailed, along with comparison pictures of the two Blu-ray players. Update: THX’s Graham McKenna wrote to point out that there was actually some modification of the Oppo hardware:
"THX worked directly with Oppo to improve video performance during the testing of the Lexicon player and the benefits made their way to the Oppo platform as well."

[jcrobso]

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/120-hertz-hdmi-cables

People are told at places like BB that they need a 120Hz HDMI cable to be able to use their 120Hz refresh rate HDTV.:bs:
Are they any ethics here or is this PT Barnum marketing???:banghead:

[Mr. Widget]

Update: THX’s Graham McKenna wrote to point out that there was actually some modification of the Oppo hardware:
"THX worked directly with Oppo to improve video performance during the testing of the Lexicon player and the benefits made their way to the Oppo platform as well."
If this is in fact the case, then either Lexicon's agreement with Oppo wasn't very well thought out, or Oppo ripped off Lexicon.

Who is screwing whom here? We may never really know.

All that aside, it is clear that if you want a very, very good multi-platform player and only have $500 to spend, the Oppo BDP-83 is a no brainer. If you have significantly more to spend... the Oppo is still very likely the player for you. :)


Widget

[grumpy]

This is all tragically funny (re the oppo/lexicon debacle... if true).

Someone at Lexicon marketing could have just coughed up the
truth first, and set a price point accordingly... a simple "manufactured
by"..., to accelerate to market a Lexicon and THX approved unit where there
is perceived demand (a hole) in the current line-up, and provide matching
aesthetics for an existing product line... while we continue to develop state
of the art ... yada yada yada...

I have no doubt that some (with full knowledge of all this) will pony up a
large percentage of the manufacturer's list price to keep up with playback
technology and retain matching-looking components, but the way the
news of the units hit the fan, ... seemed very unplanned/unorganized.

[Mr. Widget]

...but the way the news of the units hit the fan, ... seemed very unplanned/unorganized.Kind of Harman's Standard Operating Procedure?

Too big to fail may work for large banks and big auto companies for a while, and while JBL Synthesis does show the possibilities of brand synergies, for the most part, Harman seems like the clumsy giant that just can't get it's footing.

Not to say that the various Harman brands haven't come out with numerous stellar products, the overall picture that emerges is haphazard at best. :banghead:



I have no doubt that some (with full knowledge of all this) will pony up a large percentage of the manufacturer's list price to keep up with playback technology and retain matching-looking components...No doubt. The Lexicon does look nicer and to some that is all that matters.


Widget

[mikebake]

I agree that speaker aesthetics matter significantly, and I appreciate a good looking speaker. If they have to live in the living room, they better be pleasing.
That's why man-caves are nice. Screw the aesthetics.

[JeffW]

All that aside, it is clear that if you want a very, very good multi-platform player and only have $500 to spend, the Oppo BDP-83 is a no brainer. If you have significantly more to spend... the Oppo is still very likely the player for you. :)
Widget

My buddy bought a Blu Ray player at Wal Mart, I think it's a Magnavox labled player. Paid $189 I think.

He thought I was off my rocker for paying $900 for an Oppo BDP-SE. His player doesn't touch the DVD quality of the Oppo, and he has no stereo to hook analog outputs up to. HDMI into HT in a can.

His perception is that I could have saved $700+.

My CD player was junk, I didn't have a DVD player or Blu ray player...much less SACD. The other universal players were more in line with the cost of the Lexicon, just too steep for me. I would have skipped the option of muliple formats (or bought cheap stand alone versions) before I plop down multiple thousands on a player.

My perception is that I got a decent player that'll handle all my possible needs for a fraction of what I could have spent.

Since I was never really in the $3000+ player market, I'm not sure how I'd feel if I found out my new Lexicon was an Oppo inside. I am happy with the Oppo, I guess that's the bottom line.

[speakerdave]

From the company's and salesman's point of view the focus is to sell the sizzle not the steak.

From the buyer's point of view, it's the most bang for the buck.

Ethically a considerable degree of frankness should be involved and the price should be related relevantly to the cost plus a reasonable profit. It's called fair dealing. There is no law requiring it except "what goes around comes around."

What amazes me is that there must be someone in the company at a level to make this decision who was stupid enough to try it. This is what comes from living in an ego bubble the size of a space helmet; a person begins to think everyone else does too. It's nothing but classic middle management cut-throat competition where advancement is based on short term bottom line results, quarter by quarter.

I watched an online video recently about a Bryston product. They had filmed an engineer presenting it, and the integrity, thoroughness, pride and directness were transformative. I'm sure GT presenting the D66000 at Las Vegas was similar.

I'm not saying engineers (and engineering management) are always good guys. When the space shuttle blew up I turned to my wife and said, "Somebody knows exactly what happened," and that's exactly how it turned out.

And I'm not denigrating salesmen. In our system, just as anywhere else, nothing happens economically until something gets sold.

However, anyone, anywhere in an organization who demonstrates a willingness to slip one over on the customer should be pushed out, because in the end it will be poison.

I suppose the responsible party never heard the story about the Altec 605; not a bad speaker--just not what they said it was.

[jcrobso]

"B" brand speakers will never allow their speakers to be A-B with any other speakers.:blink: The reason is that "B" brand speakers sound like crap and no on would buy them if they could hear the difference! If you can't dazzle them with brilliance baffle them with bull. :banghead:
We come back to buyer be ware!!

Many will remember when the FTC got involved with power amp ratings because of all the false and misleading claims about power output. For a $75 stereo system the claims were that it had 800w of power. When in reality it only had about 15w RMS per channel.:blah: