JBL Synthesis - Room Design and Treatment [Archive]

JBL 4645

02-05-2009, 07:08 AM

It's about 4,760 cubic feet.

Approximately 14' 6" wide in the front to 16' 6" in the back, 32' deep, and 10' 8" high in the front stepped to 8' 8" in the back (the floor is stepped, not the ceiling).

That’s only trifle more bit larger than my living room.

Live in noisy neighbourhood with yelling and barking dogs, trains planes and automobiles outside?

You’re going to have to counterbalance this thread with the same amount of pages with images because the text is starting to tip this one over.:D

Synthesis, right ahead!
Hard to starboard!:D

Been browsing though one of the user manual. It has computer lead input. So does the engineer calibrate this from his office as these things are shipped around worldwide and it would be near or not quite impossible but, its not a commercial cinema it’s the home. Home doesn’t make any commercial profit, cinema does.

Seems like dicey thing to set-up with all this computer aided technology. Guess this will take days to set-up.

Are you building any type of THX baffle wall for the front LCR and subs bass speakers’ to be housed in?

Testing for rattles and buzzes on each speaker assembly.

Tighten down windows doors lighting and remove any objects from the room that might present an issue with rattling or buzzing sounds.

Oh, yeah, this is going to take you days until you can start playing with it.:bouncy:

Titanium Dome

02-06-2009, 11:23 PM

The freight company called and scheduled delivery between 10 and 2 on Wednesday the 11th. You can see some photos then.

I've got a contractor coming by tomorrow to estimate some flatwork for me.

Some estimates for room treatments are on the way.

$$$$$$$$ :spchless:

In the end, I'll probably do 80% of the work myself, so it'll be weeks, not days before this all comes together.

JBL 4645

02-13-2009, 02:13 PM

I'm happy without the XLRs. I got a good deal. I've been on the phone a couple of times with the dealer, and he's been pleasant and supportive. He's working with UPS to handle the problem.

Widget is 100% right. It will be a while before any sound comes out of this system. I haven't even had time to take anything out of the box after my initial, cursory inspection for shipping damage. I'm not even sure HOW I'll get some of it out. It's too much for a single person. I might be asking someone to come help me.

My goal is to have things set up before the end of March. I'm trying to discipline myself to do this right, at least within the limits of my budget.

Fly me over and I’ll lead a hand. I’ve got sod-all to plus the weather is naff over here.:D

I was right that room has to be remodelled from the ground-up to fully exploit the grandeur of the JBL Synthesis and beyond!

Set your goals high and beyond or on par with the Empire. :applaud:

Most cinemas often take many months of design planning building and installing, before opening its doors to the general public.

I have THX manual around the flat somewhere that goes into not too much detail for home THX set-up but it does state not sure about the quote. It takes more than just stacking speakers up in room.

I think you’ve taken on a huge undertaking that will take several months before its all finished.

Have done any nail sketch drawings as of yet, what design ides do you have in mind? a cool looking near by JBL THX cinema might be good starting point?

Keep the materials high but affordable remember this has cots you, “a bomb” “a bo” “no not a bo” “a bomb”!:D

Any plans to put a few real cinema seats in the room to make it feel and look the part.

Any thoughts as of yet, are you daydreaming brainstorming the idea out on paper?

Titanium Dome

02-13-2009, 10:24 PM

rdgrimes

02-13-2009, 10:29 PM

I'll be driving that Hyundai for a long time to come. :D
No problem as long as it has a decent JBL audio system in it. ;)

JBL 4645

02-13-2009, 10:48 PM

Lots of paper sketches, lots of room treatment alternatives, lots of sweating over $$$$ to do it right.

Right now I'm thinking $4,000 for room treatments, $10,000 for construction, $1,500 for calibration, and $XX,000 for the system. Egad!

Still working on final ratios, but the room specs out well at 14'6"x22'6"x10'8", with three tiers, all gear stowed in a separate, adjacent room (needs to be partially excavated and concrete floor put in), plus extensive application of sound traps and wall treatments. Then of course there's wiring and independent electrical service, new ultra-quiet HVAC system, another trip to Ikea for Poang chairs. etc.

Some might say "Why?" but I've made the commitment. I'm going to get it as close as I possible can while I can still enjoy it, and f@#k everything else. I'll be driving that Hyundai for a long time to come. :D

Whoa, whoa hold on down not some fast and don’t be too hasty. Have you really got that kind of money to splash out? $10K is lot of money I mean a lot. Surly you do this for less than $10KI mean that room isn’t cinema size and yet I can understand commitment and dedication to perfection, just as long as it doesn’t cost $6Million:o: if you catch my drift.;)

If I was going to do my living room out I’d keep it within a hundreds not the thousands.

Anyway it’s your money not mine, just don’t go overboard.

{muttering to myself $10K this guy is crazy.]:D

Can you draw no I don’t mean Gunfight at the Okay corral can you draw basic pictures with colouring pencils. Draw some ideas and lets all have look.

timc

02-14-2009, 04:13 AM

In my oppinion $10k on construction isnt that bad if you want it done right. Just think about what it costs to redo a kitchen or a bathroom..

The $$$ fly free......

-Tim

doyall

02-14-2009, 06:20 AM

... another trip to Ikea for Poang chairs. etc. ...

No theater chairs?

hjames

02-14-2009, 07:02 AM

No theater chairs?

Have you ever spent a few hours cradled in a Poang chair??
They are relatively inexpensive (even with leather cushions),
they are darned comfortable, and look quite good as well!
Add in the matching footstools and ... ahhhh!

Wish I had a bigger room - but the chair is perfecto!

Robh3606

02-14-2009, 07:42 AM

Have you ever spent a few hours cradled in a Poang chair??

Hello Heather

Are those neck rests or head rests?? Does the back of the chair go above your head??

Rob:)

opimax

02-14-2009, 07:52 AM

The point of doing this and F^$%g everything else is so true! I finally bought a decent system but my hearing is obviously deteriorating. Enjoy the Hyundai, maybe upgrade the stereo so it accepts MP3s:D and all will be good.

Enjoy!

Mark
PS are those the 240TI you out bid me when I was noob?

boputnam

02-14-2009, 01:51 PM

Still working on final ratios, but the room specs out well at 14'6"x22'6"x10'8...Is that L x W x H?

If so, the JBL Room Mode Calculator (http://www.harman.com/xls/Room%20Mode%20Calculator.xls) shows the imbedded image. There are weak clusters at ~50Hz, ~100Hz and ~158Hz, but not so bad.

But, since you are doing all this advance planning you really should check out the Room Reverb / Sabine Calculator and Charts (http://www.marktaw.com/recording/Acoustics/RoomReverbSabineCalculato.html) site and work through your possible RT60 using Sabine values of various wall/ceiling/floor materials. You could end-up with a really sweet place.

As well, Linkwitz (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm) has some great stuff, and a Room Mode calculator (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/modes1.xls), too. However, my quick model of your ratios shows you are WELL ahead of the game! Nice! ;)
.
.

Titanium Dome

02-14-2009, 02:58 PM

Is that L x W x H?

If so, the JBL Room Mode Calculator (http://www.harman.com/xls/Room%20Mode%20Calculator.xls) shows the imbedded image. There are weak clusters at ~50Hz, ~100Hz and ~158Hz, but not so bad.

But, since you are doing all this advance planning you really should check out the Room Reverb / Sabine Calculator and Charts (http://www.marktaw.com/recording/Acoustics/RoomReverbSabineCalculato.html) site and work through your possible RT60 using Sabine values of various wall/ceiling/floor materials. You could end-up with a really sweet place.

As well, Linkwitz (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm) has some great stuff, and a Room Mode calculator (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/modes1.xls), too. However, my quick model of your ratios shows you are WELL ahead of the game! Nice! ;)
.
.

Thanks for the insight, Bo.

The front distance is set by the physical imitations of the house construction. I'd have to do major excavation to widen it, since the bottom floor goes into the side of the canyon. So, 14' 6" is a given.

The 22' 6" is somewhat arbitrary. I think I need to truncate the space and not use the full 32' length that's available, and I want whatever's left over to be useable.

The 10' 8" height is tricky, because it's not that high down the entire length of the room. It's 8' 6" at the back of the room due to the three-tiered floor. It actually requires a more sophisticated model than just a normal room mode calculator.

At this point I don't have access to anything that will let me model the actual room and, to be honest, I'm not sure I could understand it if I did. The alternative is to pay someone to do it, and the best estimate so far is $2500 and the worst is $6500. That seems like a lot, especially given all the other costs. That would buy a fair amount of room treatments.

Robh3606

02-14-2009, 05:41 PM

That would buy a fair amount of room treatments.

Who is doing the room treatments?? If it's a contractor they would have to do the analysis as part of it no?? How else would they be able to determine what you needed and where?? On paper great but at some point they would have to come in and actually measure the room.

Rob:)

Titanium Dome

02-14-2009, 10:09 PM

Even though some of us (myself included) are shocked at spending $10k on construction, it's a general contractor doing the work. The LA area "HT specialists" want $40k+ and they don't mess with chumps like me. They can go down to Rancho Palos Verdes, over to Pacific Palisades, or down to the OC and find lots of folks willing to spend $100k or more for the Ultimate Home Theater. Frankly, who needs that ego stroke?

Not me. This is, in effect, a DIY, be-your-own GC (general contractor) arrangement. I may live in SoCal, but I'm still a midwesterner by birth, inclination, and temperament. :yes: I've still got that can-do attitude when it comes to this kind of stuff. Once I pay for the system, the construction, the treatments, and the calibration, I have more time than money to get the rest of it right.

I've been in contact with the acoustimac folks and am working with their service reps to put together an appropriate treatment package. They're very helpful.

Titanium Dome

02-15-2009, 10:23 AM

I failed to mention that the contractor I hired built recording studios in the area. I visited two to see the quality and character of the work.

Yes, I know recording studio ≠ home theater. ;)

rdgrimes

02-15-2009, 01:18 PM

I failed to mention that the contractor I hired built recording studios in the area. I visited two to see the quality and character of the work.

Yes, I know recording studio ≠ home theater. ;)

So next you'll be installing a floating isolated concrete slab. :blink:

Titanium Dome

02-15-2009, 01:59 PM

So next you'll be installing a floating isolated concrete slab. :blink:

The floor in there is already concrete and the room is 100% below grade on two sides, 80% below grade on one side, and about 40% below grade on the other. I'm not interested in more concrete in there, floating or not. ;) Plus the cost of a yard of concrete is out of sight.

We're actually talking about a pair of floating risers in the seating area with a couple of THX subs underneath in the sealed space. Think butt-kicker extreme (switchable of course, because they serve no purpose in music).

The room will have no windows and will have only two doors--one to the outside and one to the equipment room and emergency exit.

4343

02-17-2009, 07:49 PM

...

Yes, I know recording studio ≠ home theater. ;)

You got that right!

I was amazed at what passed for 5.1 setup at the last studio I wired. I setup 5 identical Genelecs on really nice stands, 3 along the glass in front of the console, 2 at the back of the room, along with the sub at the end of the console. Not really fine tuned, or EQ'ed in any way, just an approximation so I could test the speakers. The next time I tried to get in that room, it was already being used!:blink:
Had to schedule the testing of the video tielines for after the current project was finished...

BTW a powerful sub and a tone generator is a great tool for finding rattles in the room treatments, lighting, etc...

glen

02-19-2009, 02:48 PM

I'm fortunate to have a pretty good room to put it all in, though there will be some modifications to the room and some new treatments to really bring out the best.

Hey Dome,

Looking forward to a detailed story of the travails and triumphs of your room reconstruction and system installation with lots of pictures and anecdotes.

How about some "before" pictures of your room before it starts getting transformed.

Hope the journey will be more :bouncy: than :banghead: !

Mr. Widget

02-19-2009, 07:01 PM

How about some "before" pictures of your room before it starts getting transformed.:yes:

Widget

JBL 4645

02-19-2009, 08:08 PM

I think we need more pictures please more:)…there’s too much text.

Titanium Dome

02-23-2009, 12:38 PM

After an extensive discussion with the contractor today, I've decided that what we're planning won't be quite good enough. So, we're revising some of the room dimensions, in particular the length to get better room ratios.

Looking at a "normalized ceiling height of 9' 6", width of 14' 8" and length of 30' 4", we get pretty good numbers. Comments?

Robh3606

02-23-2009, 12:59 PM

Looking at a "normalized ceiling height of 9' 6", width of 14' 8" and length of 30' 4", we get pretty good numbers. Comments?

You are not using the "Golden Ratio's" are you??

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/news/10388/index.html

Rob:)

Titanium Dome

02-23-2009, 01:56 PM

You are not using the "Golden Ratio's" are you??

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/news/10388/index.html

Rob:)

Actually, the first two numbers (height and width) are very close to the ratios, but the third (length) would have to be 37' 9" which is 7' 5" outside the existing walls down there. I'm not going to excavate that much dirt, especially considering there are two floors above that would have to be supported while the foundation wall is removed. Na ga ha, Bar.

Titanium Dome

02-23-2009, 02:36 PM

Plus, the Synthesis® marketing/engineering piece states that the $16,500 SDEC-4000 can handle any room, so we'll get it as close as we can to minimize the amount of calibration needed, then let the JBL tech handle the rest. :D

timc

02-23-2009, 03:29 PM

Valentin

02-23-2009, 03:37 PM

golden Ratios are not a good way of knowing if your going to have good or bad sound

there are too many variables

in this calculations you take for granted that all modes will be exited and in the same degree and that the listener will here all these modes

this is far from reality since the speaker are not set in the 3 way corners and the listener ears are not in the corners were all modes interact

second your room is not a perfect rectangle and does not have perfect reflecting surface so the distribution is far from being as in sou ch papers

it is allot more important to place the speaker correctly and too have good acoustic treatment diffusion and absorption in the correct places

ti dome you should buy Floyd Toole book Sound Reproduction is has a lot more knowledge probably more than your contractor and it is an easy read

the sdec 4000 is an incredible tool specially if it is used as a finishing touch

Titanium Dome

04-03-2009, 09:58 AM

I should have some pictures to post this weekend of the ongoing modifications in the HT room. We've been doing a search of the blueprints to get some insight into the structural design down there. It appears there might be a column that runs from the foundation through all three floors and up to the gable in the attic. This would be a major factor, both in removing the wall to join the two rooms and in the possible placement of the S4Ai units.

Robh3606

04-03-2009, 10:09 AM

It appears there might be a column that runs from the foundation through all three floors and up to the gable in the attic.

Ouch!! That can get really expensive. Sounds like it could be load bearing. Are the floor joists or headers tied to it?? Is it a Plumbing/Electical/Heat/Air conduit?? That could suck as well. Well good luck I hope it is something you can easilly move without major renovations.

Rob:)

JBL 4645

04-04-2009, 03:31 AM

Looks like the Dome is making small waves on AVS:p as someone here posted this or it might be a natural JBL voyeur peeking around.:D Thing is Dome how far have you got so far is it starting to come together or is it still boxed up?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=866797&page=180 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=866797&page=180)

Titanium Dome

04-04-2009, 12:38 PM

Ouch!! That can get really expensive. Sounds like it could be load bearing. Are the floor joists or headers tied to it?? Is it a Plumbing/Electical/Heat/Air conduit?? That could suck as well. Well good luck I hope it is something you can easilly move without major renovations.

Rob:)

Looks like the Dome is making small waves on AVS:p as someone here posted this or it might be a natural JBL voyeur peeking around.:D Thing is Dome how far have you got so far is it starting to come together or is it still boxed up?

Well, it's official:

Titanium Dome

04-04-2009, 12:44 PM

It turns out the wall not only has a load bearing column in it right down to the foundation, it has TWO load bearing columns.

Oh, and did I mention that underneath the drywall the entire thing is covered in 3/4 plywood to act as a shear wall for earthquake protection?

So, when we bought the place and I ask the contractor, who retrofitted it and installed the Radon removal system, if that was a load bearing wall, why did he say, "No, it's not. You can take it out."?

His recent reply: "Oh, that wall. I thought you meant the false wall we put in front of it." Effing moron! :bash:

Titanium Dome

04-04-2009, 01:08 PM

So now, we just finished re-drywalling what was ripped out and cleaning up the dusty, gritty mess that it all left. Later, I'll undertake the sanding, finish coating, sanding, priming, sanding, and painting, Hooray.

This is preferable to the estimated $40,000-50,000 and 45 days to bring in steel beams and jacks to hold up the house, dig out the load bearing wall and columns, pour new foundations, pour new floors, erect structural steel to bear the load, remove the temporary beams and jacks, refinish the walls and ceiling that will need to be removed to install the the support beams and the permanent beams, and have the mess hauled away.

NOT gonna happen!

According to JBL, this system will work in rooms from 1500 cu. ft. to 16,000 cu. ft. So I can put it in a 2,505 cu. ft. room or a 2,260 cu. ft. room. The 2,505 room has better dimensions (8'8"x15'5"x16'6"); the other room is basically a 14'6" square with 10'9" ceilings.

Any suggestions?

Hoerninger

04-04-2009, 01:11 PM

Proper installing for improved intelligibility, best 3D room acoustics included:
____________
Peter :)

Mr. Widget

04-04-2009, 01:24 PM

So, no way to work around the columns?

That sucks... not only will your space be smaller than intended, but the noise transmission issues. Oh well, at least you have options.

Widget

MikeBrewster77

04-05-2009, 06:28 AM

Yup, that there's a load bearing false wall we put in front - it's made from magical sheet rock and NASA grade spackle.... Seriously - why would anyone think you were inquiring about the load-bearing status of a false wall??? :banghead:

Anyway, sorry to hear about that! It sounds like you have options to work around it, though, from your follow-up post. I'm sure wehn all is said and done, the sound will be spectacular enough to take your mind off of the room architecture :)

P.S., OT - your GF's got a nice car! ;)

It turns out the wall not only has a load bearing column in it right down to the foundation, it has TWO load bearing columns.

Oh, and did I mention that underneath the drywall the entire thing is covered in 3/4 plywood to act as a shear wall for earthquake protection?

So, when we bought the place and I ask the contractor, who retrofitted it and installed the Radon removal system, if that was a load bearing wall, why did he say, "No, it's not. You can take it out."?

His recent reply: "Oh, that wall. I thought you meant the false wall we put in front of it." Effing moron! :bash:

Titanium Dome

04-05-2009, 12:05 PM

So, no way to work around the columns?

That sucks... not only will your space be smaller than intended, but the noise transmission issues. Oh well, at least you have options.

Widget

Well, we'll deal with most of the sound transmission issues through rebuilding the false wall to be detached from the load bearing wall. It'll make the room a little narrower, but that will help with modes.

We can put one riser in as well, which will help break things up a bit, and the treatments folks have a pretty good handle on the room redesign already. I'll get more coverage for less money, because the room is smaller. :idea:

We have a great idea for an equipment closet that will not intrude on the room, so there's a net gain in room volume there.

The wall and ceiling painting will have to be redone, since it was done in "back of the HT" colors, and now it will have the front of the HT as well.

The ceiling lights will have to stay as they are. I don't want to pay for that again. I may switch out some bulbs to create a different balance.

The electrical will require some mods, but we hadn't actually run the wiring for the equipment panel pending removal of the wall. The speaker wiring isn't in yet, as we're still waiting on the in-wall cable.

Hoerninger

04-05-2009, 12:18 PM

Proper installing for improved intelligibility, best 3D room acoustics included:
"Wer den Schaden hat, der braucht für den Spott nicht zu sorgen." -
I am convinced you will manage your project with success!
"Ich stehe auf Deiner Seite." :thmbsup:
____________
Peter

JBL 4645

04-05-2009, 01:02 PM

Why not use cable trunking its effective and doesn’t cost the Earth and the hassles of cutting into the wall what mess it makes, and what if you wanted to change cables, with cable trunking just strip off the facial front and replace with new cable.

Titanium Dome

04-05-2009, 10:39 PM

The S4Ai speakers for the sides and rears are in-wall units. Plus they require four conductors each, so it's better to have them in the walls all the way.

JBL 4645

04-06-2009, 02:53 AM

So you mean to say you’re fixing them flush with the wall surfaces?

jblsound

04-06-2009, 09:21 AM

According to JBL, this system will work in rooms from 1500 cu. ft. to 16,000 cu. ft. So I can put it in a 2,505 cu. ft. room or a 2,260 cu. ft. room. The 2,505 room has better dimensions (8'8"x15'5"x16'6"); the other room is basically a 14'6" square with 10'9" ceilings.

Any suggestions?
15' 5" x 16' 6"! I'd have to rethink that room for all that speaker system. I'd call that getting to too narrow and like you say the other room is even worse.

But on second thought, I suppose those vertical horns will work better being stuck in the corners to the sides of the screen, than a normal speaker system would. Which is why I built my LR to the max width I could get (17.5') and still have a front deck.

I've done enough remodels, of both houses and hotel/casinos, to know there will always be unforeseen problems that jump right at you as you tear into the existing, that are totally unexcepted, no matter what the old blueprints might show.

Titanium Dome

04-06-2009, 10:31 AM

So you mean to say you’re fixing them flush with the wall surfaces?

There is no other way.

jblsound

04-06-2009, 12:22 PM

There is no other way.
I've only had onwalls, but from what I've read over the years, having inwalls make the speakers completely disappear, as far as being able to be localized.

Titanium Dome

04-08-2009, 01:28 PM

Titanium Dome

04-08-2009, 01:35 PM

A 500 ft. spool of UltraCap is on its way from NY. I got the 14/4 version.

Each SAM1HF/SAM2LF requires its own twisted pair, so I'll need four conductors for each of the three front channels. The S4Ai requires two twisted pairs, so I'll need four conductors for each of the surround channels.

The two S1S-EX subs only need a single pair, but I'll just run four conductors anyway and double them up. OOOOHH! It's like bi-wiring subs. :biting:

This stuff has 105 strands per conductor.

Titanium Dome

04-08-2009, 01:40 PM

I got some custom-tinted Glidden flat paint at Home Depot. It's a dark, dark brown, almost black.

Since the ceiling is divided into four quadrants, I'm planning on painting the front two quadrants with this dark paint to cut down on reflections. Depending on the look, I may do the whole thing. I may paint the front wall, too, despite the fact that the proscenium will be covered in black acoustical panels and fabric. I doubt that any front wall will be showing.

I also got the lumber for the equipment closet, which we'll start this weekend.

Titanium Dome

04-08-2009, 01:47 PM

Early Saturday morning I'm driving to Santa Ana, CA to pick up two 20 space equipment racks. These will be mounted inside the closet.

The closet will have a perforated floor with a filter so the fan at the top can draw the air through the racks (and especially the amps) and exhaust the hot air.

Dividing the stack into two shorter racks makes heat removal easier and provides some additional wall space at the top for installation of an S4Ai.

Titanium Dome

04-08-2009, 01:53 PM

Twenty yards of black crushed velvet is on its way from the SF Bay Area. This will go on the walls above about 27" except where the acoustic panels are.

I still haven't decided if I want to put some batting behind it. It won't have much practical benefit except for making the thing look more plush, I guess. Anyone have any thoughts?

I plan to keep the bottom 27-28" of the side and rear walls bare, except in the four corners where there will be bass traps.

Titanium Dome

04-08-2009, 02:03 PM

I've tried to locate and purchase the S4Ai retrofit brackets, Synthesis® S4FRB, but those who claim to sell them are out of stock. If I can't locate some soon, we'll fabricate our own, I guess. The brackets are probably more of a convenience than a necessity.

If anyone has four of these sitting around, let me know.

jblsound

04-08-2009, 06:58 PM

The acoustic panels are being manufactured in Florida as I write. It'll take about three business days to manufacture, four days to ship, then it's install time! I have to have the room mostly ready by then.
I guess you've never seen these, right there in CA, nothing like cotton for clothes or acoustic panels.
http://www.soundaway.com/Acoustic_Cotton_Panels_17805_p/17805.htm

Titanium Dome

04-08-2009, 10:24 PM

I guess you've never seen these, right there in CA, nothing like cotton for clothes or acoustic panels.
http://www.soundaway.com/Acoustic_Cotton_Panels_17805_p/17805.htm

Seen 'em, felt 'em, didn't choose 'em. Pretty nice product, but not what I wanted.

Robh3606

04-09-2009, 09:16 PM

Hey where are the pictures??

You can't take us through thus without them.

Rob:useless:

JBL 4645

04-10-2009, 09:47 AM

Hey where are the pictures??

You can't take us through thus without them.

Rob:useless:

I agree even if its picture of household pet, :D pictures please.

Titanium Dome

04-10-2009, 10:01 AM

OK, I'll take a picture of the dark brown paint I put on the ceiling, a picture of the construction materials, and a picture of the covered equipment.

JBL 4645

04-10-2009, 10:39 AM

OK, I'll take a picture of the dark brown paint I put on the ceiling, a picture of the construction materials, and a picture of the covered equipment.

Yeah it will be like watching paint dry.:D

Titanium Dome

04-10-2009, 04:51 PM

This photo shows just inside the entry door to the bottom level. Due to the load bearing wall issue, this will no longer be part of the HT. :biting:

So now it serves as a staging area for the activities up the stairs. OOHH, it's a jammed mess!

The box on the floor is 500' of 14/4 oxygen-free, 105 strand per conductor speaker wire. "Audiophile Grade" of course, and RoSH compliant. :p

Eventually this lowest level will return as the music/fitness room.

Titanium Dome

04-10-2009, 04:56 PM

Turning right toward the stairs takes us in the direction of the now reduced-sized HT. With the latest plans it will be 2704 cu. ft.

In the second, slightly higher shot, A PT800 still languishes on the wall. The particle board will be the floor for the riser in the back of the room.

JBL 4645

04-10-2009, 04:56 PM

Fascinating picture Dome plenty of topic to talk about. What is that box on the floor with tube sticking out it? Is it one of those syrup things for soda pop machine?

Do you use the JBL PT800 for centre back surrounds?

Titanium Dome

04-10-2009, 04:59 PM

Just to the left of the stairs is the area that will be carved out of the music/fitness room to make way for the Synthesis® equipment closet. A couple pieces of metal conduit are ready to be pressed into service to shield the cable runs to the front and back.

Titanium Dome

04-10-2009, 05:03 PM

Going up the stairs and looking back, we see the big pile of Synthesis® equipment, minus the amps, which are stacked in another part of the room. Again, adjacent to the stairs (this time to the right) is the area where the equipment closet will be built.

The railing comes out tomorrow and the framing begins.

Titanium Dome

04-10-2009, 05:09 PM

Next to the soon-to-be-built closet is the wall that couldn't be removed. There's a nice patch over the discovery hole now. The stepped area in front is actually drywall over the foundation.

A continuous row of brown acoustical panels will be installed just above the level of the highest step. The 24"x48"x2" panels will run lengthwise the entire length of the wall. Above the panels the walls will be draped in black crushed velvet. Below the panels, the Swiss Coffee color will remain, at least until we see how it all comes together.

There will be extreme low-level lighting at the receptacles.

Titanium Dome

04-10-2009, 05:15 PM

The ceiling is in four quadrants, and the front two are painted a dark, dark brown. also, the plenums and beams are painted this color.

In actuality, the side of the visible beam will be covered with brown, angled acoustical panels, and the undersid of the plenum will have black acoustical panels on it out to 96".

Titanium Dome

04-10-2009, 05:20 PM

In the front, where the proscenium will be, the white ledge and supporting drywall box will be gone. The wall will be virtually covered with black acoustical panels.

Above the screen, there will be black, angled panels, and the white screen case will be covered in black fabric. The front corners will have black, angled acoustical panels to keep the corners from accumulating waves.

At the junction of the walls and the floor, there will be 24"x48"x4" black bass traps.

Titanium Dome

04-10-2009, 05:22 PM

For the eternally curious, here's the framing lumber for the equipment closet and the floor riser.

All along the back wall there will be a continuous, horizontal run of 24"x48"x2" black, acoustical panels at the same height as the other walls. Above that, the wall will be covered in black crushed velvet.

Titanium Dome

04-10-2009, 05:28 PM

Finally, back down in the music/fitness room, the source equipment and the Synthesis® amps are evident.

Titanium Dome

04-10-2009, 05:39 PM

The PT800s will come out. They will be replaced by the in-wall S4Ai units/

Titanium Dome

04-12-2009, 08:41 PM

The room treatments are completed and are being shipped. This is actually quite exciting! They'll come by freight; it's too much for UPS or FedEx.

This will be quite an experience, as I've only done half-assed room treatments before, and this will be all the way. It wasn't cheap, but I expect big gains.

I decided to go with acoustical panels instead of foam absorbers and diffusers. Every top notch professional studio I've visited has gone the acoustical panel route or some variation thereof.

I should get them this week.

I hope the black crushed velvet gets here first, as I can't put the panels up until the walls are done.

Titanium Dome

04-12-2009, 08:49 PM

The closet is coming together for the equipment. It's a lot more work than expected. Removing the railing and stringers was hard due to lots of carpenter glue and long metal screws. Then a platform had to be built and a wall framed in.

The space beneath the platform will become a storage locker in the music/fitness room.

Titanium Dome

04-12-2009, 08:52 PM

From the back side, here's the framed wall with the opening for the equipment racks. The racks are temporarily placed to check clearance.

Once I locate the proper wall cavity on the far wall, we'll frame in the area above the opening to accommodate an S4Ai.

The amps will be to the left (from the back) and other stuff will be to the right.

We spent the better part of three hours working a 10' steel conduit through the wall on the left to the open space under the house. It will be used to guide the three speaker cables for the front; that's 12 conductors total. I think we'll run one more cable for "just in case" situations, like adding a second SAM2LF to the center channel down the road or perhaps another sub.

You can also see the 6" riser on the floor in the back of the room for the back row of chairs.

Titanium Dome

04-12-2009, 09:03 PM

From the HT side and standing on the riser, here's a look at the front of the equipment closet.

I feel so much taller. :applaud:

Titanium Dome

04-12-2009, 09:12 PM

Here's three quick shots of the area next to the HT and music/fitness room. The walls are insulated and there's dead air space between the new walls and the old.

This huge area has a Radon removal system in it, hence the piping and thick plastic membranes on the ground.

We'll be running cables and wiring on the outside of these walls, accessing the area from the equipment closet via the 10' metal conduit installed today.

Shot one shows the walls adjacent to the HT and music/fitness rooms. Subsequent shots pan left. Someday I'd like to finish this space, with it's 10' ceilings. It'd be nice to have a bathroom down here.

mikebake

04-13-2009, 12:49 PM

http://www.brandweek.com/bw/photos/stylus/62691-Geico-Kash.jpg

mikebake

04-14-2009, 01:23 PM

http://www.geico.com/public/audio/somebodyswatchingme.mp3

Titanium Dome

04-25-2009, 02:25 AM

Finally the replacement S5160 arrived intact. Yay!

Man those things are heavy. The UPS guy and I struggled to get it safely down to its destination.

I also received the new projector mount, the 25' HDMI cable, and 30 yards of black crushed velvet.

I love it when a plan comes together.

rdgrimes

04-25-2009, 06:20 AM

Pictures please.

Titanium Dome

04-25-2009, 05:20 PM

rdgrimes

04-25-2009, 06:35 PM

I now have 420 pounds of acoustical panels moved into the room. I had to move 'em myself, as the delivery guy wouldn't take them past the street--and I live a long way from the street.

Too tired to take a pic now, but will get one this weekend. That's a lot of freaking panels. :biting:
If you ever have an earthquake or tornado, the house may leave but the HT room will still be sitting there with all that weight in it. ;)

Valentin

04-27-2009, 07:47 AM

I now have 420 pounds of acoustical panels moved into the room. I had to move 'em myself, as the delivery guy wouldn't take them past the street--and I live a long way from the street.

Too tired to take a pic now, but will get one this weekend. That's a lot of freaking panels. :biting:

well those panels are extremely important for a good sound you can have the best speakers electronics in the world but if your room has lousy acoustics you will get midiocer sound

Titanium Dome

04-27-2009, 07:56 PM

Okay, here are some lousy shots of the panels. How many do you want to see? Some are black and some are brown. The black ones will go in the front (the proscenium) for the most part.

Titanium Dome

04-27-2009, 07:58 PM

Altogether there are about thirty acoustical panels, including four bass traps.

JBL 4645

04-27-2009, 10:11 PM

I now have 420 pounds of acoustical panels moved into the room. I had to move 'em myself, as the delivery guy wouldn't take them past the street--and I live a long way from the street.

Too tired to take a pic now, but will get one this weekend. That's a lot of freaking panels. :biting:

I think you have enough acoustical panels to sink a bloody battleship.:D

Are those pre-made or diy?

Titanium Dome

04-28-2009, 09:44 AM

I think you have enough acoustical panels to sink a bloody battleship.:D

Are those pre-made or diy?

They're pre-made. They were custom-built and shipped from Florida to California. I expected good quality and got better than I expected. :thmbsup:

One box had a little damage--forklift penetration it looked like--that damaged one panel. So the company shipped me a new one no questions asked. Great service.

Titanium Dome

04-28-2009, 09:47 AM

hjames

04-28-2009, 09:56 AM

Titanium Dome

04-28-2009, 10:54 AM

JBL 4645

04-28-2009, 10:59 AM

They're pre-made. They were custom-built and shipped from Florida to California. I expected good quality and got better than I expected. :thmbsup:

One box had a little damage--forklift penetration it looked like--that damaged one panel. So the company shipped me a new one no questions asked. Great service.

May I kindly suggest you no longer use the forklift it seems like bad idea! Good old fashion lifting a bit of sweating won’t hurt to shed a few pounds off in the summer weather.:bouncy: I think the forklift has got it in for you.:D

I’m not going to ask how much they cost as its rather rude to do so, I can only guess how much.

So what frequencies will they deal with in the room once carefully placed?

JBL 4645

04-28-2009, 11:09 AM

I just got a call from Chris Neumann, former head of JBL Synthesis®. He's driving down from Northridge this morning to look over the room and give me advice on speaker placement and acoustical panel installation.

After I follow his instructions and the work is complete, he'll come back for the calibration.

He’ll get it all sorted for you. :applaud: So you have video projector so there should be no excuses for matching LCR placed behind it at the same height level along with the subs placed below the centre.

Titanium Dome

04-28-2009, 11:12 AM

JBL 4645

04-28-2009, 11:32 AM

4645, the panels were relatively inexpensive for what I got. They cost under $2000, which is not cheap, but inexpensive compared to all the other brands I looked at.

Here are the specifics on the 24x28x4 inch panels (bass traps) and the 24x48x2 panels.

DIY bass traps could have shaved the cost by many hundreds of £$.

Well just as long as it deals with frequency issues. My dad will never understand that.:blink:

I can understand the costs of foam and the special tools to cut and shape the foam but a bass trap there’s hardly anything to it.

Valentin

04-28-2009, 11:36 AM

JBL 4645

04-28-2009, 11:41 AM

ti dome

did you buy any diffusers

you should have a mixture of these for a god envelopment and musicality

refection from the correct angles are very important and the use of diffusers can enhance the sound a lot

killing all the lateral reflection points is not a good practice and it and old practice from recording studios your room is not to be a recording studio

Chris Neumann from Harman should know this since it it all over DR Floyed book and studies

Good pont!http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon14.gif

The mirror technique buy having a friend or wife move a small mirror along the sidewalls. I think it’s when you see yourself or a certain refection that, is where you should place the diffuser/diffusers. I’d have to re-read the THX manual.

Valentin

04-28-2009, 11:54 AM

not realy

envelopment is direction time and frequency dependant

it is not a simple rule of Thom of first reflection points

60 degrees from the listener point is the most effective for envelopment but 70 80 90 and 110 are pretty good

but the you have the frequency and time variables which are important

Titanium Dome

04-28-2009, 01:15 PM

Chris and I talked about diffusers this morning. We'll have three along the back wall.

Remember, there will be four in-wall S4Ai units in the surround and rear positions. Chris was pleased as he was instrumental in their design and development. They take a whole different approach than if we had more traditional surround speakers.

I couldn't have a better guide, so no worries, guys. :)

Earl K

04-28-2009, 01:22 PM

Very cool Doug, I'm quite excited for you ! :)

Like so many others of yours , this is a great thread for us lurkers .

Who made those panels for you ? / or have you already mentioned it ?

>< cheers :)

Mike Ronesia

04-28-2009, 09:28 PM

It's good to see pictures of the room coming together. Keep them coming when you have time.

80sKid

05-01-2009, 10:58 AM

jblsound

05-01-2009, 11:37 AM

I failed to mention that Chris was referred by Ron Rouse, the current head of JBL Synthesis®.

Chris is a very cool guy, though he just gave me a lot of work to do. At least I know what I need to accomplish, and when the system is done, it will be as good as it can be.

I showed him around the house to see the JBLs, and he was excited to see all the different systems. A good time was had by all.:bouncy:
I talked to Ron Rouse about 3~4 years ago discussing the PS and other JBL systems, and about the availability of the PS, and who was a local Synthesis dealer around here. There has been a number of them go by the way side in recent years.

jblsound

05-01-2009, 11:39 AM

Good pont!http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon14.gif

The mirror technique buy having a friend or wife move a small mirror along the sidewalls. I think it’s when you see yourself or a certain refection that, is where you should place the diffuser/diffusers. I’d have to re-read the THX manual.
Diffusers go on the back walls, where needed, absorbtion panels go at the first relective point, if needed.

natelabo

05-01-2009, 11:27 PM

ti - awesome to see everything coming together... sent you another PM when you have a chance. Thanks!

Titanium Dome

05-02-2009, 07:42 AM

Hi, Dome. I'm enjoying the thread and I look forward to seeing the install come together.

I don't think you mentioned where you sourced the acoustic panels from. I'm very curious to know the answer.

Thx.

Here you go.

http://www.acoustimac.com/

They were just great to deal with, and Sal, the guy I worked with was quick to replace the damaged panel. The value proposition was amazing, and this is the ONLY place where I actually saved significant $$$ from what I budgeted for the room modifications.

Everything else is costing more (and more).

Titanium Dome

05-02-2009, 07:48 AM

Diffusers go on the back walls, where needed, absorbtion panels go at the first relective point, if needed.

The front wall will be completely "dead" as will most of the first third of the room.

Loffen

05-02-2009, 08:26 AM

Thanks. It's all a bit daunting, really, and whatever you pay for the gear is only the beginning of your spending.:spchless:

AudiogoN maybe? This was an authorized dealer transaction. I didn't do it through ebay.

Tell me about that :p
In about a months time my HTroom is up and running, the cost ?? :blink: do not even want to think about it, I will post a pic or three when it is done however :)

Ok, I did just see a simular setup on Ebay and asked the seller if he would split it up, I needed the Sdec for my system, but after a couple of runs on Ebay it was sold through the shop of the owner, the seller was a really nice guy by the way.

80sKid

05-02-2009, 03:07 PM

http://www.acoustimac.com/

Thanks. Their prices are good.

JBL 4645

05-03-2009, 12:17 AM

Diffusers go on the back walls, where needed, absorbtion panels go at the first relective point, if needed.
Well I said I had to dig that manual out the mind can’t hold onto every little detail.

A common bookcase with books placed in a random fashion helps so I read. Thou I’d prefer something more fancy looking. Diffusers aren’t all that hard to build are they not?

jblsound

05-03-2009, 09:19 AM

The front wall will be completely "dead" as will most of the first third of the room.
That brings to mind my first house in the '70s. I had a combination of a large tapestry and 1/2" thick brown cork panels covering the entire wall behind the speakers. It did deaden the room a bit. I haven't done it since.
Been thinking of getting a couple of those recycled demin panels to go behind the front speakers.

JBL 4645

05-04-2009, 05:32 PM

That brings to mind my first house in the '70s. I had a combination of a large tapestry and 1/2" thick brown cork panels covering the entire wall behind the speakers. It did deaden the room a bit. I haven't done it since.
Been thinking of getting a couple of those recycled demin panels to go behind the front speakers.

Hmmm, wouldn’t cork also deaden the sound and be slightly reflective at the same time?

Doesn’t cost much does it unless you hang out at pubs and nick all the cork mats on each visit.:D

More update pictures Dome keep us updated on the developments of the project.

80sKid

05-05-2009, 12:40 AM

JBL 4645

05-05-2009, 01:20 AM

I’ll look into cork as well as other types of affordable materials cheers. :)

Allanvh5150

05-05-2009, 02:31 AM

I think everyone is thinking too hard about listening room acoustics. My current room, which is now close to finished, has fibreglass installed in all of the walls, drywall and carpet. The ceiling and the floor are not paralell and the walls are not paralell. The main goal of this room is not to stop reflections as such, but to make sure there are no standing waves. As for reflections, well the room is dead. Apart from the construction of the walls, the rest of the house is exactly the same, the room treatments cost a whopping $400. $240US, 130GBP!!!! It was a bit of a punt but it has far exceeded my expectations.:)

Allan.

p.s. as for cork, dont go there.

JBL 4645

05-05-2009, 02:36 AM

Spot on £130 that’s what I call affordable.
:applaud:

Fibreglass I’m kinder allergic to it unless it’s a user-friendly type due to my skin conduction.

I was fascinated with the treatment in the VUE at London nice soft spongy like fabric as pictured in the VUE pictures I took last year of one two THX screens fully rigged with JBL.

It was layered with white fabric over the front I’m guessing its one of two types behind fibre or other

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm160/WestEndJBLcinemas3417/VUEWestEndLeicesterSquareJBLinst-2.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm160/WestEndJBLcinemas3417/VUEWestEndLeicesterSquareJBLinst-6.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm160/WestEndJBLcinemas3417/VUEWestEndLeicesterSquareJBLinst-7.jpg

Allanvh5150

05-05-2009, 02:44 AM

Spot on £130 that’s what I call affordable.
:applaud:

I thought you would like that! I did have to glue the carpet on myself though.

Also got the other sub finished a couple of weeks ago. Now I have 4 x 2235's. mm mm mm mm mm.

Allan.

JBL 4645

05-05-2009, 02:49 AM

I thought you would like that! I did have to glue the carpet on myself though.

Also got the other sub finished a couple of weeks ago. Now I have 4 x 2235's. mm mm mm mm mm.

Allan.

Four should eliminate the standing wave/null issues.
:applaud:

I bet that glue was sticky messy issue getting attached to walls. :D

Allanvh5150

05-05-2009, 03:06 AM

JBL 4645

05-05-2009, 03:13 AM

jblsound

05-05-2009, 07:07 AM

Cork would only absorb the highest of frequencies. While it's better than nothing, it really wouldn't give the kind of sound control that most rooms need. Plus, the aesthetic of cork everywhere is certainly not for everyone.

Using bookcases as diffusers is what I have done in my own den/media room. The back wall sections that are not dominated by a fireplace are filled with bookcases that have videotapes, CD, DVDs and yes books, of varying sizes. Works great.

I never said using cork was the best way to go, just remembering having used it 35 years ago, as TiDome mentioned that the entire front of his room would be dead.

In fact, those cork panels, like the two vertical rows of gold vein mirror tiles, on that same wall, are just two of many products available in the '70s never to be seen again. Looking back, the '70s were a bit strange.

As for my current room, I've only got corner diy bass traps. Been thinking of getting 2 or 4 recycled demin wall panels, with two going right behind the main speakers, and first reflection points on the sides. But I'm not convinced they will change the sound that much, to warrant the cost, as those speakers are five feet from the side walls and 4.5 ft out from the back wall.

80sKid

05-06-2009, 01:11 AM

...I was fascinated with the treatment in the VUE at London nice soft spongy like fabric as pictured in the VUE pictures I took last year of one two THX screens fully rigged with JBL.

It was layered with white fabric over the front I’m guessing its one of two types behind fibre or other

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm160/WestEndJBLcinemas3417/VUEWestEndLeicesterSquareJBLinst-2.jpg

This is typical movie theater sound treatment -- seen round the world in thousands of theaters. It's rigid fiberglass, or mineral wool, panels attached to the wall and then covered with acoustically-transparent fabric that is pleated and mounted over the panels.

The fiberglass panels shouldn't represent a health concern for anyone once they are mounted and behind the fabric. Firstly, the rigid panels are quite dense and only shed when brushed against. And all the loose fiber gets shaken out during installation. Plus the fabric on top keeps in any remaining fibers. As long as you take precautions for installation (or have someone else handle that) and clean up the space thoroughly before "moving in," you should be fine.

But then, as others have mentioned, there are alternatives. The most popular being cotton panels that are made from recycled blue jeans.

Allanvh5150

05-06-2009, 02:46 AM

Oh, I humbly agree one can not have too much.:p

Al, have you ran frequency sweep with free software like REW at the sweet spot to clarify this?

No. I don't ever get caught up in measuring this and that. My ears are the judge! If there is a flat spot half a metre from where my feet are I don't care. My feet don't have ears.:D

Allan.

JBL 4645

05-06-2009, 05:27 AM

No. I don't ever get caught up in measuring this and that. My ears are the judge! If there is a flat spot half a metre from where my feet are I don't care. My feet don't have ears.:D

Allan.

You have point there. That is true the floor doesn’t have ears. But what if its in null in the chest area that is several inches below our ears what then?:D

Titanium Dome

05-06-2009, 10:12 AM

well, we ran into another snag with the room. The designer wanted the countertop and base removed from the corner of the room. It sounded hollow, so no problem, right?

We popped the top off in preparation for demolition.

Titanium Dome

05-06-2009, 10:14 AM

Okay, let's look inside. Wait, :wtf: What's that?

Titanium Dome

05-06-2009, 10:19 AM

Okay, it's the d@#%ed footer. It's not going anywhere, and it continues around underneath the shelving to the right.

The stub wall is bolted to the floor. The studs would have to be cut out, and then we'd only gain 4". Not worth it.

Titanium Dome

05-06-2009, 10:35 AM

rdgrimes

05-06-2009, 10:44 AM

What's the problem with the shelf and base? I don't get it. If it's the sound of the dead space, why not stuff it full of insulation?

Titanium Dome

05-06-2009, 11:08 AM

The plan called for an S1S-EX to be placed there, along with a bass trap. The S1S-EX would have been inset part way in the wall. Doesn't work as intended if it's 30" off the floor.

rdgrimes

05-06-2009, 11:32 AM

What if you make a corner notch and place the S1S-EX at a 45' angle back as far as it can go into that space, leaving the remainder of the existing boxed area so the S1S-EX just sticks out a bit. You might be able to hammer out some of the footing to allow more room in the corner.

What 1st struck me about the corner is that the boxed area is perfect for a custom sub install. Take out drywall, install particle board and a corner-angled baffle, create the appropriate sized space behind and add cross-bracing and ports. You can take all the measurements off the S1S-EX and use it's driver and even the grill and port tubes? Looks like the tubes are removable from the cab.

louped garouv

05-06-2009, 01:03 PM

So, the room is now officially a "problem room."
.....
There will be more as the saga continues. :help:

aren't they all.....

:D

I recently laid some laminate flooring down after tearing out all of my carpets, only then did i realize nothing is 'square' in the place....
:)

be well....

i trust everything will work out for you....

BMWCCA

05-06-2009, 01:11 PM

Your mom probably told you, "Nothing worth doing is ever easy!"

Hang in there. It'll sound fantastic! :applaud:

Mike Ronesia

05-06-2009, 01:18 PM

That's too bad. It's not the first time I've seen one of those nice details hiding something that messes up the plans.

Though it will cost more I'm guessing the basement HT would end up being a better solution with not as much compromise and 3 years from now you'd be glad you did it.

80sKid

05-06-2009, 11:35 PM

Personally, I would move forward with the room and make it as good as is practical / affordable.

I would stuff that gap behind that half-wall completely with fiberglass (and I would pack it firmly, not loosely). Plus double up the drywall, by adding another layer to the outside.

I would still put the surround speaker in the position you originally intended (as far as lateral positioning is concerned). Make its installation heigh immediately above the half-wall.

I'm confident the sound won't suffer much by having the surrounds up a few inches higher than originally planned. In my experience, surrounds being above ear level is BETTER.

Of course if you, or the JBL guys, feel strongly otherwise (which should really only be if you are going to do a significant amount of multi-channel MUSIC listening), the solution could be to flip the surround speakers upside down.

This will put the high frequency drivers close enough to ear level to get the job done. (Note that this will likely require positioning these surrounds the opposite of how their installation labels indicate -- i.e.: the end that is indicated should be towards front of room, should be towards back of the room.)

You will need to put an acoustically aborbent material or object on top of the "shelf" that is created by this half-wall, to absorb the first reflections from the surround speaker. You could even use cushions for this purpose, if that look matches the decor of the room.

Valentin

05-07-2009, 08:11 AM

Hi Ash,

I can definately say there are no nulls in my room. One sub is under the plasma as you have seen and the other is about 1.5 metres behing the listening position. 1000watts per cab and tuned to 27Hz. Serious overkill but one can never have too much.:D

Allan.

:bs:

There is definitely nulls in your room
one thing is that your room is dead in the upper frequencies and another is in the bass region

not even the big anechoic chamber in harman is free from reflexions at 40 hz

230 usd of fiberglass is not going to do the trick

besides you do not want to kill all the room reflections not for listening pleasure

here is an anechoic chamber in Mexico city were i have done some tests and its good to 80 hz with wedges of 110cm to go down too 40hz you would need 215cm long wedges

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c7/ValentinR/DSC_0213.jpg

Valentin

05-07-2009, 08:27 AM

Ti

go ahead with the room there is always options for placing subs

there are many option one is do a column and place the sub near the ceiling

there it works exactly the same as the floor and the bottom part of the column can be your bass trap

etc etc etc

remember that you have the sedec 4000 with will help you alot in this range

Valentin

05-07-2009, 09:00 AM

Titanium Dome

05-07-2009, 12:21 PM

Here is a room i designed a couple of year ago

it has a flat RT .3 +- .03 second time from 80hz up

today i would have done some thing a bit differently but it is a great sounding room

esthetics was the way the client wanted not my choice there so many options that can get you good results

Looks cool. Can you recall the room dimensions?

That room is very attractive, but my intent is to make the room disappear both visually and sonically. I can afford great sound and vision, or I can afford a beautiful room, but not both. :)

Valentin

05-07-2009, 12:47 PM

it is a 6.30m x 3.9m x 3.40 that would be 20.6ft x 12.8ft and 11ft high

it is not that big

that room is extremely neutral sonically and it sure disappears
imaging is pinpoint no bass boom a lot of envelpment etc

acoustics does not mean to have bad aesthetics

BMWCCA

05-07-2009, 02:11 PM

Here is a room i designed a couple of year agoAre you the gentleman with the hair, or without? :)

Valentin

05-07-2009, 03:05 PM

none

the gentleman without the hair is the owner and the one with hair is a reviewer from home tech magazine
i am the one in the anechoic chamber

Valentin

05-07-2009, 03:30 PM

Ti dome is in excellent hands with the help of JBL synthesis crew

thy are the one that should be doing the suggestion for the alternative locations or did you have to contract a acoustical consultant.

who did the acoustic calculations and design for your room

or did just tell you to put absorbers in the side walls a some bass traps in the corners and diffusers in the back

are these bass traps Helmholtz, slat or diaphragmatic or just fiber
are you treating the ceiling do you have carpeted floor etc

do you have plan with your sweet spot and the angles for speakers it would be very nice if you can post them

Allanvh5150

05-07-2009, 04:04 PM

:bs:

There is definitely nulls in your room
one thing is that your room is dead in the upper frequencies and another is in the bass region

Feel free to wave the BS flag. Without listening you will never know but feel free to pop round for a listen. I am sure that you would be pleasantly surprised. In the listening position you can not hear the room at all. With a movie playing the room dissapears visually as well. As for the 230USD of fibreglass, it was actually carpet. Non parallel walls and ceiling with carpet on all surfaces has taken care of 95% of the problems. In a home environment the other 5% is not even worth talking about. As an engineer for a great many years I have used the best gear, run huge systems inside and outside and used some pretty amazing recording studios. Feel free to use an RTA to "hear" problems that you cany hear. My ears are always the judge andthey have served me well.:)

Allan.

Valentin

05-07-2009, 04:49 PM

Non parallel walls and ceiling with carpet on all surfaces has taken care of 95% of the problems

:applaud::applaud::applaud::bs: none parallel walls do not make modes disappear it just make them less predictable you need to absorb the energy and carpet is not going to be very efficient below 300hz

what i do agree is that what the end user hears is what is important :)

As an engineer for a great many years I have used the best gear, run huge systems inside and outside and used some pretty amazing recording studios

so all the acoustical treatment ($$$) in does amazing studios is too fix that 5%

some room have good acoustical qualities it depends in great many factors type of construction type of furnishing shape size etc etc

but too say that any room with carpet in all of the walls and celling is going to fix 95% of the problems is simply wrong

a non environmental room may be a good place to mix in but it is far from a grate place to reproduce recorded music

Feel free to use an RTA to "hear" problems that you cany hear

if some one is in favor of the correct reflextions it is me , totally deaden a room is not the best solution for a pleasure listening
and does refection appear in the rta
measurements are important if you now how too interpret them and do the right type of measurements for the right reasons

Allanvh5150

05-07-2009, 09:12 PM

:applaud::applaud::applaud::bs: none parallel walls do not make modes disappear it just make them less predictable you need to absorb the energy and carpet is not going to be very efficient below 300hz

what i do agree is that what the end user hears is what is important :)

so all the acoustical treatment ($$$) in does amazing studios is too fix that 5%

some room have good acoustical qualities it depends in great many factors type of construction type of furnishing shape size etc etc

but too say that any room with carpet in all of the walls and celling is going to fix 95% of the problems is simply wrong

a non environmental room may be a good place to mix in but it is far from a grate place to reproduce recorded music

if some one is in favor of the correct reflextions it is me , totally deaden a room is not the best solution for a pleasure listening
and does refection appear in the rta
measurements are important if you now how too interpret them and do the right type of measurements for the right reasons

Without getting silly, all I said was that in a normally built room, carpet from floor to ceiling will fix 95% of the problems in the room. For all intents and purposes I can not hear the room. I aint gonna fix what I cant hear. Anything better in a "home" environment is pointless. It will cost and extra $1000 to get to 96%, an extra $10000 to get to 97% and so on. If you feel the need to pick holes in something that you have never listened to, feel free to do so.

JBL 4645

05-09-2009, 05:21 AM

This is typical movie theater sound treatment -- seen round the world in thousands of theaters. It's rigid fiberglass, or mineral wool, panels attached to the wall and then covered with acoustically-transparent fabric that is pleated and mounted over the panels.

The fiberglass panels shouldn't represent a health concern for anyone once they are mounted and behind the fabric. Firstly, the rigid panels are quite dense and only shed when brushed against. And all the loose fiber gets shaken out during installation. Plus the fabric on top keeps in any remaining fibers. As long as you take precautions for installation (or have someone else handle that) and clean up the space thoroughly before "moving in," you should be fine.

But then, as others have mentioned, there are alternatives. The most popular being cotton panels that are made from recycled blue jeans.

Right gotcha

The fibre sheets are really inexpressive in small quantities.

There’s not much of an echo than slight shape sound when clapping my hands so less would be more in small room rather than overdoing it (yes or no)?

I know what it sounds like when clapping my hands in the VUE when no ones around the sound decays really fast, as I was there this Thursday, after I saw Star Trek at the Empire in THX I then saw Wolverine at the VUE in THX.:bouncy:

JBL 4645

05-09-2009, 05:33 AM

Without getting silly, all I said was that in a normally built room, carpet from floor to ceiling will fix 95% of the problems in the room. For all intents and purposes I can not hear the room. I aint gonna fix what I cant hear. Anything better in a "home" environment is pointless. It will cost and extra $1000 to get to 96%, an extra $10000 to get to 97% and so on. If you feel the need to pick holes in something that you have never listened to, feel free to do so.

Unless of course you go around building sites, nicking it!:D

I’ve seen some cinemas using carpet attached to walls.

ABC Westover road screen 1 upstairs has carpet stuck to the back wall, while the sides is drapes or part of the same material for the curtains.http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon13.gif

ABC screen 2 again carpet stuck to rear walls, it’s a naff sounding cinema that I wouldn’t take my cat in there to spray the place over!http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon13.gif

ABC screen 3 has carpet stuck to side and rear walls.http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon13.gif

Odeon Westover road screen 1 has carpet stuck around the auditorium and the floor god damn some for god sakes clean it! It hasn’t been washed in 15 years or so the place really sticks its second worst to the guy across the road with the cats pissing over his home.http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon13.gif:barf:

I tried carpet on the walls years ago and it really sucked I still had this sound like sound buzz. I just nailed the carpet to wall it was fast and easy and sucked.http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon13.gif

I don’t think I’ve got enough room to attach fibre boards to the side and rear walls without losing a few inches of the rooms dimensions. It sounds better than my mates it rumbles it roars it jolts it kicks and slams with good clear LCR front and wicked surrounds.

It might be doable when I shift the rack of equipment into the bedroom. I might take different approach. The window most defiantly needs blocking due to traffic and other sounds filtering in on loud busy day.

JBL 4645

05-09-2009, 05:54 AM

So, the room is now officially a "problem room." It's thwarted me in every effort to make it a better place for the Synthesis® gear.

My thought process is something like this:

1. Put the Synthesis® gear in the room in a temporary install, with
no more physical changes to the room so it can be returned to regular
use.

AND

2. Save up for a year or so and finish the unfinished basement area
and install the SynthesisR system permanently in there. I have a bid
for about $28,000 for the primary construction.

OR

3. Sell the Synthesis® system and recover some of my money, plus end my grief.

Chris Neumann talked me down from the ledge (as in, "Wait, don't jump! Things aren't that bad.") and agreed to work with me on a temporary install, which hopefully will go quickly. Even at that, it should be a night and day improvement over the beautiful Performance Series system that was in there.

There will be more as the saga continues. :help:

So you have but a few hours called hard sweating and beating the crap out of what ever that is looks like concrete?

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=39095&stc=1&d=1241630082

Beat it in and save $28grand rather than giving it to some mug :banghead: pardon the expression.

If you think your room’s problematic I have sodden chimney breast that sticks out by 18 inches but I’ve solved that as and when I block off the front left corner, (sometime around early June after I pick the LCD projector up and start knocking up base platform up front).

Don’t you have mates that can get you the building materials for next to nothing?

Anyway you need to get yourself with a sledgehammer beat the what ever it is in for 1 hour while another mate takes the rubble outside to the dust bins or dig a hole in the garden and ditch it.

Then switch around while he beats it in and you take down the rubble. You need the British on this not an American. No pun.:p

Maybe small jackhammer would work fast but that room looks doable, rather than wasting $28grand in basement.

You’ve got some pucker JBL :) there and your not focusing on which room is easy to knock up in next to no time. was going to use the bedroom as you remember but it was located blow other bedrooms and was bit of problem at night the Earth moved while the neighbours below where having sex.

So I moved it back in the bedroom and I moved it around or tested it twice in the living room and once in the bedroom I think. The only issue was it was too small. I have to build a proper stud wall above near around the door and do away with that piece of wood I have stuck over it for the surrounds.

I’d like to slyly beat the chimney breast in and dump the bricks in dustbin at night. Then get the wall skimmed and plastered but the tubes inside the breast hmm. Its not doable. So I have to work around it.

hjames

05-09-2009, 07:26 AM

So you have but a few hours called hard sweating and beating the crap out of what ever that is looks like concrete?

Maybe small jackhammer would work fast but that room looks doable, rather than wasting $28grand in basement.

Ash, I'm pretty sure that concrete is structural - its the FOOTER, and it can't go away ...
I think thats TiDome's designer's problem ... and his!

The other possibility would be to build up the rest of the wall so its all at that same level,
put stuffing behind it to deaden any reverberations ...

Okay, it's the d@#%ed footer. It's not going anywhere, and it continues around underneath the shelving to the right.

The stub wall is bolted to the floor. The studs would have to be cut out, and then we'd only gain 4". Not worth it.

jblsound

05-09-2009, 09:28 AM

but too say that any room with carpet in all of the walls and celling is going to fix 95% of the problems is simply wrong

a non environmental room may be a good place to mix in but it is far from a grate place to reproduce recorded music

if some one is in favor of the correct reflextions it is me , totally deaden a room is not the best solution for a pleasure listening
and does refection appear in the rta
measurements are important if you now how too interpret them and do the right type of measurements for the right reasons

That's the truest statement I've seen in this thread. I've listened to music in what I would call a totally deaden room. And it totally sucked.

I don't like a really live room either. Read that as listening to a boom box at full volume in a home still under construction, with bare sheetrock walls, bare concrete floors and completely empty.
A good room to me is something at the mid-point of those two extremes.

jblsound

05-09-2009, 09:34 AM

Ash, I'm pretty sure that concrete is structural - its the FOOTER, and it can't go away ...
I think thats TiDome's designer's problem ... and his!

The other possibility would be to build up the rest of the wall so its all at that same level, stuffing behind it to deaden any reverberations ...

Yep, anytime you see a boxed out section in a room you can bet its either structural or some kind of chase for AC, electrical, or exhaust outlet.

And that concrete is indeed a structural footing. As I remember TiDome mentioned that is a 3 story house. Thus the cost quote he was given to remove the two support columns in the wall between the two rooms.

JBL 4645

05-09-2009, 09:58 AM

Okay then let’s at least take another look at it. There has got to be away around this. Dome more pictures of the room from very front to the very back and side to side take enough so we can see if there is way around this.

Again what is the size of the room depth length and height?

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=39094&stc=1&d=1241629949

Titanium Dome

05-13-2009, 07:43 PM

All right. Now that the fires have burned down, let's get this thing back on track.

I was up in the Valley (yes, that Valley) in Sherman Oaks today and stopped at Steven Klein's place and picked up the diffusers. I got a baker's dozen of the Saturn Polycylindrical diffusers.

http://www.soundcontrolroom.com/products/diffusion/saturn.htm

They're pretty darn cool, and they're paintable.

He had some on the back walls in his place and the diffusion was splendid. I liked them much better than the overpriced foam skyline-style ones I was looking at, which required custom priced painting at the factory.

MikeBrewster77

05-13-2009, 08:25 PM

They're pretty darn cool, and they're paintable.

Nice, and very reasonable pricing. :)

So, is the plan to move forward in this room as a temp install with the eventual goal of moving the system into a less "problematic" space, or has a work-around been established for the footer?

Best,
- Mike

Titanium Dome

05-13-2009, 08:48 PM

JBL 4645

05-21-2009, 09:20 AM

Temp.

In about a year (if I have the money) we'll build out the "big room" that's unfinished down there.

Then the current room becomes the music room, and the lower room becomes the fitness room, and all is right for me to enjoy in my remaining viable years.

That’s if you finish it of course. I’m only kidding.:D

Makes sense get those JBL up and running and while its keeping you happy as well as keeping us interested in the pictures. You can be slowly transforming the other room and than make the transfer over with equipment installation.

All right. Now that the fires have burned down, let's get this thing back on track.

I was up in the Valley (yes, that Valley) in Sherman Oaks today and stopped at Steven Klein's place and picked up the diffusers. I got a baker's dozen of the Saturn Polycylindrical diffusers.

http://www.soundcontrolroom.com/products/diffusion/saturn.htm

They're pretty darn cool, and they're paintable.

He had some on the back walls in his place and the diffusion was splendid. I liked them much better than the overpriced foam skyline-style ones I was looking at, which required custom priced painting at the factory.

That’s interesting how much?
[Mumbling]
Please let it be affordable please let it be affordable as I’m only a peasant not rich man.:D

I’m somewhat fascinated with the diffusers at the EMPIRE and the way there laid out around the cinema and the texture of the paint work as well.

I’ll try and get some better pictures of the diffusers next time I visit the EMPIRE.

I was designing a simple side panel a kinder of mini-me version, not sure which materials to use? I was thinking of MDF or something lightweight with unique acoustical properties?
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/Empireneonlightingsystemrighthan-1.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/Empireneonlightingsystemlefthandyel.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/Empireneonlightingsystemlefthandsid.jpg

Closer view of the sidewall panels

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn73/EmpireLeicesterSquare3417/EmpireLeicestersquareSunday20200-7.jpg

Note the layout of the diffusers on the sidewalls and ceiling

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn73/EmpireLeicesterSquare3417/EmpireX-filesJBLTHXEmpire16.jpg

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn73/EmpireLeicesterSquare3417/EmpireX-filesJBLTHXEmpire19.jpg

I kinder lost count a few weeks back as I was counting how many diffusers EMPIRE 1 has before the film started. It’s not easy with the coloured lighting change the mood ever 1 minute or so. I guess there’s around 200 plus on the first part of the front along the walls and across the ceiling area.

So about or near to 900 plus, I might be wrong thou?:D

I guess there must be hundreds of sites linking and relating to audio diffusers.

http://www.soundsorba.com/diffusorba.htm (http://www.soundsorba.com/diffusorba.htm)

Also on the subject of diffusers and the type of shape it is, where does one or how on Earth do you calculate where to place them?

Titanium Dome

05-21-2009, 11:17 PM

If you take two S800 amplifiers (2400W maximum power consumption), add two S5160 amps (1800W maximum power consumption), and a spare S400 (1200W maximum power consumption), then add in the normal componentry, you're looking at quite a power hungry system. :shock:

Originally we planned a 20 Amp dedicated power circuit, but now it's two 20 Amp circuits (@ 110 Volts for those who are thinking 220) that have to be drawn from the breaker box all the way to the equipment closet. That's about 60 feet away, and of course most of the wiring is below grade, so I'll spend the weekend drilling through walls, floors, and joists; mounting and joining conduit; and fishing, pulling, and connecting wires. I actually thought we'd need three 20 Amp circuits, but Chris says two will be enough.

I've already pulled four channels of 14/4 speaker wire (runs A thru D), and I have five more (E thru I) to go.

For those keeping track, if I get the electrical done, finish the wall sanding and painting, install the carpet, and mount the equipment in the racks, then it's time to have Chris come in, mount the speakers, acoustic panels, and diffusers, do the calibration, and I'm in business!

This weekend I'll get some pictures up of the progress.

Titanium Dome

05-21-2009, 11:47 PM

Look here for a unique opportunity:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=252329#post252329

Titanium Dome

05-25-2009, 09:46 PM

Here are some recent shots.

The wall and ceiling painting on the front is essentially finished. Some spots weren't quite dry, so they reflect back as white spots. The receptacles and cover plates were swapped out for black ones in the front, and the can lights had black bezels put in, as well as low light, low energy bulbs.

A black drape will go over the media storage.

The brown is much darker than it appears in these flash-brightened shots, and the walls appear to be white even though they're a dusky yellow. When the lights are off, the front wall and ceiling disappear into black.

Tomorrow the screen goes up.

The pictures are front left and front right.

Titanium Dome

05-25-2009, 09:50 PM

The carpet is ready to go. It's "relaxing" overnight from being rolled up for almost two weeks. If it's ready, it'll get installed in the next day or two.

Here's a look at the carpet and one of the polycylindrical diffusers.

Again, the walls and the carpet are much darker than they appear.

Titanium Dome

05-25-2009, 09:55 PM

The drywall around the front of the equipment closet and the reduced opening to the lower room are done.

Dark drapes will be hung over the door. Chris says we'll use the space in the lower room as a well for the massive bass pushed out by the S1S-EX subs. Otherwise it might be overwhelming.

The back wall of the equipment closet will remain unfinished until all the gear is installed. Then a rear access door will go in flush with the wall.

Titanium Dome

05-25-2009, 10:08 PM

80sKid

05-26-2009, 02:20 AM

Glad to see you're still making steady progress.

It's not surprising to hear to about Chris' suggestion for the bass. Since it's not currently practical for you to isolate the listening room from the gym area, the bass would leak out anyway. And since the system is intended to fill a much bigger space with bass to begin with, that's a practical approach.

Have you thought about breaking in the speakers prior to installation? If not, I would strongly urge you to do it. The initial hours of speaker operation typically see a significant improvement in sound quality.

Otherwise you could possibly end up with a brighter character to the system than you would like during the initial auditions and this could affect calibration, as well.

Since you have so many amps and speakers to break-in it will probably make life easier to do just 1 amp and 2 speakers at a time. (I usually play white noise for 24-48 hours at a medium volume.) If you reverse the polarity on the speakers and put them face to face, that reduces the amount of sound being transmitted into the room (and reduces the chances of you hearing the white noise from another room). Although, this may not help when doing the surround speakers (because of their dipole design), but it it will for the fronts.

Mike Ronesia

05-26-2009, 05:44 AM

WOW! Looks good. I bet your getting very excited.:applaud:

Titanium Dome

05-26-2009, 08:07 AM

WOW! Looks good. I bet your getting very excited.:applaud:

Excited and tired. While I'm spending, spending, and spending more money, this is still a mostly DIY project to save cash. :)

My years spent in the construction industry while I worked my way through college and grad school are really paying off. I thought those years were behind me, but the experience and skills really come in handy right now. Who knew? :dont-know

John

05-26-2009, 08:25 PM

From the backside some closet details emerge.

I used metal conduit to force a path for the electric wiring

So for all that effort, there are two 20 Amp circuits just for the Synthesis® system and nothing else. What, only four plugs?

Hi Dome ,you might want to do something with the end of the conduit where the 12-3 wire exits. over time the metal end could cut into the insulation on the cable. not sure about Calif code but up here that would fail the inspection.:(

Titanium Dome

05-26-2009, 08:52 PM

Hi Dome ,you might want to do something with the end of the conduit where the 12-3 wire exits. over time the metal end could cut into the insulation on the cable. not sure about Calif code but up here that would fail the inspection.:(

There are plastic caps that will go over the ends after the final push/pull, so there'll be no metal contact at the exit. Also, the entire area will be sheathed at completion.

Thanks for the concern, though, as I worry about such things, code or not.

John

05-27-2009, 10:00 AM

There are plastic caps that will go over the ends after the final push/pull, so there'll be no metal contact at the exit. Also, the entire area will be sheathed at completion.

Thanks for the concern, though, as I worry about such things, code or not.
OK . Sound good, on with the show.:applaud:

JBL 4645

05-27-2009, 11:11 AM

Dome

Doesn’t the US have Earth leads? I only see two pins on the mains sockets

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=39503&stc=1&d=1243314466

80sKid

05-27-2009, 11:44 AM

Not sure if your glasses are dirty, but those outlets have 3 holes. :D

The largest hole, at the bottom, is the ground/earth connection.

JBL 4645

05-27-2009, 12:13 PM

Not sure if your glasses are dirty, but those outlets have 3 holes. :D

The largest hole, at the bottom, is the ground/earth connection.

No I’m far from blind as of yet. :D I see what looks like (T shape)

Oh, I see now sorry weird looking plug?

Allanvh5150

05-27-2009, 12:43 PM

Oh, I see now sorry weird looking plug?

As one of the forrunners in electricity reticulation I thought the US would have made a half decent power socket. Mind you, they are slightly better than the European standard. Point contact on a round pin is quite average. I dont know why they didn't go for a flat pin; i.e. BS with a square pin or NZ/AUS with a flat pin. The connecting hardware is nicer looking as well.

Allan.

p.s. 110V: what is with that?:blink:

JBL 4645

05-27-2009, 12:58 PM

As one of the forrunners in electricity reticulation I thought the US would have made a half decent power socket. Mind you, they are slightly better than the European standard. Point contact on a round pin is quite average. I dont know why they didn't go for a flat pin; i.e. BS with a square pin or NZ/AUS with a flat pin. The connecting hardware is nicer looking as well.

Allan.

p.s. 110V: what is with that?:blink:

Well there is way around that its called import!

Buy some sockets and plugs from the UK and install them into the average US home I take it they use three wires live neutral and Earth of course, thou I’ve just discovered that.

The UK used to be on 240v then I found out a few years ago that it was lowered to 220v no wonder my sound system was lacking a bit.:D

No its fine just kidding I was told it was something to do with Europe which is why the UK changed? Does it have something to do with the Euro as well?:D

The mains plug as your looking at. On the left lower pin is the Live!
One the right side lower pin is the Neutral!
The top pin is the Earth thou it does bugger all when I get ground humming.:D

Oh, I wonder if Dome, is checking the mains out to see if its going to have issues with ground humming? Some rooms or where you tap onto the mains supply often as its own Electronic Gremlin?

Dome, are you checking the mains supply out mate, it’s the last thing you want is banging your head on the wall for hours on end trying to locate the fault!?

Or is your mains sound!;)

jblsound

05-27-2009, 01:12 PM

Allan.

p.s. 110V: what is with that?:blink:
Its called doing things half assed, as far as I know only the USA, Canada use 110V for most things.
But its well known that using 220V is much more effiecent. I've got a Unisaw table saw that can be set up for either. I bought it from a door shop that went out of business 25 years ago. They had it setup for 110v, I changed it to 220V right off.
Same with my well. It had a 110V jet pump, changed it to 220V pump, that dropped my electric bill.

Allanvh5150

05-27-2009, 01:16 PM

This is the NZ/AUS standard. These are more top of the line fittings that only protrude from the wall about 4mm! And 240V of course. I think the UK dropped to 220V to come into line with europe. Of course with the drop in voltage you get a corresponding increase in current, more cable losses. We can pull nearly 5Kw from a twenty amp circuit. With four double sockets on one standard power circuit we can have a useful current draw of 27A, although the individual sockets are rated at 10A a peice.

http://www.archiexpo.com/prod/clipsal/interlocked-plug-socket-52689-124394.html

Allan.

P.S. We dont use conduit either, well at least not in houses. That went out at the same time they stopped using VIR type cables. Somewhere in the late '40's I think.

JBL 4645

05-27-2009, 01:24 PM

Well here’s a strange one maybe you can clarify if there’s any truth or fact behind it.

I was talking to this chap on the phone a few months back and he mentioned about changing the average common fuse for a different type of grade that offers superior power flow to allow the HI-Fi sound system to sound better.

I was a bit sceptic about it, whether I should belive him or not because I smelled (TBS) Total Bull Sh!t! I’ve changed my number because the guy was doing my head in. :D LOL

I have friend that could do a total re-rewire of house and I’ve seen his work on clients home many years, ago and I was very impressed. He’s a teacher of electronics by profession and can design most if not, many.

I don’t seem to recall him ever mentioning or have even seen him, replacing fuses that will allow a magical flow of current to give an almost perfect sound to Hi-Fi.

I wonder what the Dome, will be pulling in regards to his soon to be up and running JBL home cinema. He’s got a few more amps than I. Well I’m running 8 plus the rest! I’m surprised the trip circuit hasn’t blown yet! LOL:D

As for the amps that I’m pulling I haven’t single clue, I’m not good with mathematics I’m sure its well over the limit or close too it!

Here’s a view of what the mains and circuit breakers looks like inside my cupboard.

Here’s a view of what the mains and circuit breakers looks like inside my cupboard.

On the left the red box is the supply IN, I think it is?

This is tapped into the pay as you use elasticity.

The main lager board is for 24 hour supply night storage heaters, kitchen a few mains plugs.

The reaming two boards on the left are bathroom bedroom living room etc.

Odd, hmm, I just noticed on the boards! It says 230v!? Now I’m confused?

There are random switches for 32A 16A 10A and 6A amperes.

hjames

05-27-2009, 02:24 PM

Geez - the US had the early standard and others that came later improved on what we pioneered. They didn't have a huge number of pre-existing systems to support, they could start at a more advanced place.

A lot of older US homes may not be able to handle 240v on the main house wiring within the walls - cloth and older plastic type insulation.

Most current US residential code does not require conduit - but Tidome may be using it for the shielding it offers.

Can't speak from a point of history, but here's a chart of us power transmission scheme

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Electricity_grid_simple-_North_America.svg/800px-Electricity_grid_simple-_North_America.svg.png

And about that 110 volt thing ... here's what another site said:

In the US and Canada, 220 volts, 230 volts, and 240 volts are used interchangeably to describe one voltage range that is used to power larger appliances. Similarly, 110 volts, 115 volts, and 120 volts all refer to the one voltage range that is available through the common electrical outlet. The sources of these seemingly different numbers is as follows:

The 220 volt and 110 volt designations are older and familiar terminology, but are no longer used in either product design or by electric utilities in the US and Canada.
The 230 volt and 115 volt terminology comes from equipment design standards. Equipment is commonly designed to operate at 230 or 115 volts plus or minus 10%.
Electric utilities typically deliver electricity, under standard conditions, at 240 volts and 120 volts plus or minus 5% at the transformer.

When one takes into account that equipment is designed to accept voltage variations of 10% at a minimum and that the electric utility regularly delivers electricity within 5% of their standard, there is a good match between the voltage the electric utility delivers and the voltage equipment was designed to use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Electricity_grid_simple-_North_America.svg

JBL 4645

05-27-2009, 03:00 PM

So that’s how it works? Interesting to see the power step up/down modules and the various different parts it needs to supply over the average single home.

The shielding now that would be to ether keep it as pure as possible or from noise interference?

JBL 4645

05-27-2009, 03:20 PM

From the backside some closet details emerge.

I used metal conduit to force a path for the electric wiring and speaker cables through the load-bearing shear wall. I kept them 18" apart all along their paths.

That speaker cable run is for the fronts only. It's four runs of 14/4 cable. There will be five more runs coming from the back. Altogether there will be 18 speaker wire pairs. Two pairs will be unused for now, but available for future height channels or whatever.

The dedicated electrical circuits were a major pain. Getting them from the typical California electrical box on the outside of the house at one upper corner to the equipment closet at the lower opposite side was much more work than anticipated.

So for all that effort, there are two 20 Amp circuits just for the Synthesis® system and nothing else. What, only four plugs?

Well, there will be power distribution gear plugged into the outlets. ;)

Yeah, I’ve seen them in cinema booth racks many years ago. There mostly placed in vertical upright position at the back of the rack.

You could go with the height thou Dolby consumer EX doesn’t support the extra channel unlike its professional Dolby SA-10. You could get away with Dolby surround pro-logic decoder patched onto the surrounds and it works much in the same way as SA-10 which is basically a modified Dolby CP-45 optical analogue Dolby A/SR decoder for small cinemas on cheap budget,

It’s the same as used for We Where Solders. only they matrix an additional like how Dolby stereo 4:2:4 works with the surrounds the extra or height is the surround channel only turned around the centre back is the centre front and sides left and right front only reversed around, now then.

http://cinematex.ru/dolby/cp45.jpg
Dolby CP45
http://www.iceco.com/images/SA10front.jpg
Dolby SA10

Only thing is they say the height mix isn’t intact on the DVD and since its matrix on the stereo surrounds just like Dolby stereo 4:2:4 I somehow don’t believe when so and so says the extra ending isn’t supported on the DVD.

That’s like saying the early editions of the first VHS Dolby stereo 4:2:4 mixes didn’t have a surround rear on STAR WARS.

And I have an early PAL Dolby stereo 4:2:4 laserdisc produced around early 1980’s.

Allanvh5150

05-27-2009, 03:30 PM

Geez - the US had the early standard and others that came later improved on what we pioneered. They didn't have a huge number of pre-existing systems to support, they could start at a more advanced place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Electricity_grid_simple-_North_America.svg

I was meaning from an efficiency point of view. Put a 1200 watt load on a 120V source and you will need a cable that can supply it at 10amps. However, at 240V the required current is only 5 amps. This equates to only 25% of the power loss on the cable. Most other countries adopted 220V but we went for 240/415.

Allan.

Titanium Dome

05-27-2009, 04:11 PM

P.S. We dont use conduit either, well at least not in houses. That went out at the same time they stopped using VIR type cables. Somewhere in the late '40's I think.

Well, I live in the US, so I use the US standard.

As for the conduit, it serves two purposes, neither of which is required by code in this instance. First, it does provide additional shielding between the parallel runs of speaker cables and electrical wiring. Even though the runs are 18" apart, they run parallel for ten feet, so a bit of extra caution there. Second, both runs had to be pulled blind through an eight foot section of load-bearing, earthquake-proof shear wall that is ten inches thick. Trying to do that with a limp wire is a fool's enterprise. Trying to do that with four speaker cables and two power cables AND keep them at least 18" apart all the way through is lunacy.

So I drilled holes all the way through the studs and sheathing and pushed the conduit through to feed the cables. Now if you think about lining up all those holes from both ends through eight feet of wall without removing the drywall and plywood sheathing to access the studs, you get some idea of the majesty of the accomplishment.

Yes, I hit both alignments perfectly the first time. :yes: It was some grunting, dirty, sweaty work, however. I effed this and effed that more times than I care to recount. I might have slandered a deity or two as well.

JBL 4645

05-27-2009, 04:20 PM

Well, I live in the US, so I use the US standard.

As for the conduit, it serves two purposes, neither of which is required by code in this instance. First, it does provide additional shielding between the parallel runs of speaker cables and electrical wiring. Even though the runs are 18" apart, they run parallel for ten feet, so a bit of extra caution there. Second, both runs had to be pulled blind through an eight foot section of load-bearing, earthquake-proof shear wall that is ten inches thick. Trying to do that with a limp wire is a fool's enterprise. Trying to do that with four speaker cables and two power cables AND keep them at least 18" apart all the way through is lunacy.

So I drilled holes all the way through the studs and sheathing and pushed the conduit through to feed the cables. Now if you think about lining up all those holes from both ends through eight feet of wall without removing the drywall and plywood sheathing to access the studs, you get some idea of the majesty of the accomplishment.

Yes, I hit both alignments perfectly the first time. :yes: It was some grunting, dirty, sweaty work, however. I effed this and effed that more times than I care to recount. I might have slandered a deity or two as well.

Blimey that must have taken your hours of sweaty work!

I guess you have rabbits foot around your neck for luck now.:D

I can imagine just how flipping hard it was to do all that and get the holes spot on!

Well done, bloody good show mate.
:applaud:

John

05-29-2009, 12:55 AM

No I’m far from blind as of yet. :D I see what looks like (T shape)

Oh, I see now sorry weird looking plug?

20 amp plug = T shape plug.
15 amp plug = non T shape plug just two slots;)

John

05-29-2009, 01:05 AM

Its called doing things half assed, as far as I know only the USA, Canada use 110V for most things.
But its well known that using 220V is much more effiecent. I've got a Unisaw table saw that can be set up for either. I bought it from a door shop that went out of business 25 years ago. They had it setup for 110v, I changed it to 220V right off.
Same with my well. It had a 110V jet pump, changed it to 220V pump, that dropped my electric bill.

Canada is 120v and 240v.

When I measure my 120v. with a meter it is around 117v.

Mike Ronesia

05-29-2009, 01:31 AM

20 amp plug = T shape plug.
15 amp plug = non T shape plug just two slots;)

This may help if anyone cares. For what it's worth our house is all wired for 20 amp but has 15 amp outlets throughout. I guess it's good to know I can just stick in a new outlet if I need to...Or just twist the prong.:wasnt-me:

http://www.underexposed.us/images/Untitled-111.jpg

Valentin

05-29-2009, 02:57 PM

ti dome

would you share a flor plan of your room
a cad plan or sketchup

Titanium Dome

05-30-2009, 12:21 PM

Well, I can share a few pictures anyway. I may be posting several times today as things take shape, then more tomorrow as we get the gear set up, though I guess that will be in another thread.

I finished the carpet this morning, so here is a shot from the back corner. These are uploaded straight from the camera, so there's no adjustments. They may be dark.

Titanium Dome

05-30-2009, 12:27 PM

Lens cleaner, anyone?

You can see the expected carpet rash on the walls. I anticipated repainting the brown one more time for this reason.

Upstairs, I'm washing the black drapes that go over the media storage, as well as the two sets (one black, one brown) that will go over the opening to the fitness/music room.

In the meantime, here are some floor level shots from the entry, going from left to right. My computer bag was in the way somewhat. From the top step to the left of the room:

Titanium Dome

05-30-2009, 12:29 PM

Right front of the room (which you've already seen from the standing position):

Titanium Dome

05-30-2009, 12:31 PM

Then the right side and real wall, including the ever-present shop vac:

Mike Ronesia

05-30-2009, 02:29 PM

The room is looking very nice. You must be starting to feel it :yes::yes:

Keep the pics coming please:applaud:

Titanium Dome

05-30-2009, 05:36 PM

All the speaker wires are in place. To get the wires to the back, I took them over the entry. This will be hidden from site by the valences of the drapes on either side of the opening.

Titanium Dome

05-30-2009, 05:40 PM

in the equipment closet they all come to a wire loom I built. This keeps them separate and in order. It also provides strain relief for the amplifier terminals. Finally it allows all the speaker cables to come straight down and away from power cords, which will be running straight across.

Titanium Dome

05-30-2009, 05:45 PM

That's a lot of speaker wires to keep straight, so of course each is labeled at both ends with a distinct identifier. I used a secret set if symbols. It's called the alphabet.

:deal:

I'll put labels on the loom, too.

Titanium Dome

05-30-2009, 05:49 PM

The racks are getting a final cleaning and mechanical inspection in preparation for the real installation.

nlsteele

05-30-2009, 07:13 PM

Really looking forward to seeing more of how this turns out, TD. (otherwise I probably wouldn't have signed up on LH knowing they'll beat me up for having L fever) :D

Keep those photos coming!!:applaud:

Titanium Dome

05-30-2009, 07:54 PM

Well, we've all taken a drubbing now and then. :bash:

I just finished the final pull on the front speaker cables. As usual, it was more work than I expected. There was a fire stop in the wall I was trying to feed the lines through. It was about four feet from my handy box hole. :banghead:

Thank goodness for cordless power drills and long wood boring bits.

I had to crawl in and out of this four times, since this is a one man show. (My GF is off taking part of the CPA exam.) I had to go under the house, then back into the basement, then back under the house, then back into the basement. Yeah, I know it sounds funny, but the unfinished part of the house is next to and slightly higher than the HT and the fitness/music roon.

Titanium Dome

05-30-2009, 07:59 PM

Once through the hole I got to dance around and over the Radon removal system and the slippery plastic. Then I squeezed between the 2x8 framing on the interior foundation wall into the pit on the other side, a drop of about five feet.

The pit is actually another 14x16 unfinished area with a big plastic covered mound of earth in the middle.

nlsteele

05-30-2009, 08:06 PM

Next project: Bat Cave.

Titanium Dome

05-30-2009, 08:06 PM

Finally, I managed to hold the fiberglass insulation out of the way and drill through the fire stop below. After feeding the cables through, I pulled them out the hole on the other side, ran them through a Leviton service plate, and snapped my victory shot.

After the final speaker connections, I'll cover the white cables with black cable covers. (But I won't put them on polished stones or maple blocks--at least not yet.)

Mike Ronesia

05-30-2009, 08:13 PM

Boy, it seems like your house just never ends. I've done my share of 2 man jobs by myself so I know what you're talking about. A few weeks of work for years of enjoyment is a good trade off.

Mike Ronesia

05-30-2009, 08:22 PM

Really looking forward to seeing more of how this turns out, TD. (otherwise I probably wouldn't have signed up on LH knowing they'll beat me up for having L fever) :D

Those L's of your's are Bad Ass:rockon2:

Titanium Dome

05-30-2009, 09:06 PM

In anticipation of tomorrow's work, I finally started unpacking some of the gear. I just had to do it.

:bouncy:

Here are three shots of the SAM1HF and SAM2LF units. They're big, about 38" tall together. Heavy, too.

Before I got these, I had the idea that an 800 Array would be a rough equivalent. Not even close. Not the 1000 Array either. The 1400 Array would be better on the low end, probably, but I might think differently after I hear these.

If you've seen any of the Array Series units, the HF enclosure looks similar to these, but when you've seen both in person, the differences are notable.

(I guess I should save these comments for the other thread.)

Titanium Dome

05-30-2009, 09:08 PM

Here's a side shot to give a sense of depth.

Titanium Dome

05-30-2009, 09:10 PM

From the other side you can see the SDP-5 on the floor. It's basically a Lexicon MC-8. The speakers dwarf it.

Titanium Dome

05-30-2009, 09:44 PM

The S4Ai surrounds are much smaller, but have a lot of heft. There's six drivers in them. Here are two of the four; the other two are behind. The grilles are on the right. Then there's a shot from the side to show how shallow the enclosures are.

The SDEC-4000X and SDEC-4000-P are on top, still in plastic. I'll let someone else take them out.

I'm not sure getting the S1S-EX subs out is a one man job, so I may use some good sense and wait until I have help.

Mike Ronesia

05-30-2009, 09:55 PM

Very cool, where is the little head with the drool when you need it? what do the S4Ai's weigh?

Titanium Dome

05-30-2009, 10:31 PM

Titanium Dome

05-30-2009, 10:34 PM

Minus the S1S-EX subs, here's a shot of the whole system. It's the first time out of the box as a group since I got them in Febraury. :hmm: February, March, April, May... long process!

Looks promising. How will it sound in my room? :dont-know

Mike Ronesia

05-31-2009, 12:07 AM

Since I can't get the subs out, I muscled the amplifiers around.

Here's all five, including two S5160, two S800 and one used S400, which may or may not make it into the lineup.

That's some serious power, and I hope the room and the electric meter can handle it. :o:

So now instead of wondering what it costs to go see a movie you will be wondering what it costs to see one at home. It should be crazy good.:) What do they charge there for power?

Titanium Dome

05-31-2009, 08:36 AM

Very cool, where is the little head with the drool when you need it? what do the S4Ai's weigh?

So now instead of wondering what it costs to go see a movie you will be wondering what it costs to see one at home. It should be crazy good.:) What do they charge there for power?

With the grilles they weigh about 25 pounds, same as the SAM1HF units.

As long as the electricity is less than $24 per movie, I guess I'll be doing all right. :)

Titanium Dome

05-31-2009, 08:46 AM

The S4Ai surrounds are much smaller, but have a lot of heft. There's six drivers in them. Here are two of the four; the other two are behind. The grilles are on the right. Then there's a shot from the side to show how shallow the enclosures are.

I forgot to mention that I have a spare, used S4Ai, minus grille, that I snagged off ebay for $152. Thankfully, it arrived in very good shape.

This gives me a complete set of spare parts: all six drivers, crossovers, etc.

MikeBrewster77

05-31-2009, 09:00 AM

Seems like things are really coming together, albeit with a few bumps in the road, as per usual with anything involving construction. ;)

And, to Mike's point, the equipment is definitely drool worthy!

Looking good! :D

nlsteele

05-31-2009, 11:25 AM

And, to Mike's point, the equipment is definitely drool worthy!

:banana:Who needs drooly faces when you've got the dancing banana?

TD, those speakers... those amps... just gorgeous. Just gorgeous.

I can only imagine they'll sound even better than they look. I love the horns on the arrays. Not to be the LH dunce, but I have a hard time figuring my way around the Synthesis site: Are those UHF transducers in the very tippy top?

Here's hoping they don't start doing alacarte electrical billing in your state. :)

Titanium Dome

05-31-2009, 05:25 PM

After a day of playing second fiddle to Chris Neumann, everything is hooked up, if not in its final installation. It's amazing to watch someone who knows what he's doing. He did everything in one-third the time I could have, and he made it look neat and professional without a second thought.

What we did in six hours would have taken me 18, and the S1S-EX subs would still be in the boxes.

The best news is we cranked it up! Even though we're a week or more away from the final calibration, he did a rough set up using my Radio Shack meter.

The result?

:jawdrop:

Titanium Dome

05-31-2009, 05:27 PM

So here's the rack, mostly done.

Titanium Dome

05-31-2009, 05:29 PM

Here's the cabling on the amp and SDEC side.

Titanium Dome

05-31-2009, 05:31 PM

Here's the cabling on the processor and source side.

Titanium Dome

05-31-2009, 05:33 PM

Here's the interim set up in front just to be able to turn on the darn thing.

Titanium Dome

05-31-2009, 05:35 PM

Here's the set up in back until I get the S4Ai units mounted. Bear in mind that sub enclosure is 38" tall.

nlsteele

05-31-2009, 05:38 PM

Now that's a sub. :nutz:

EDIT: Now *those* are subs. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Titanium Dome

05-31-2009, 05:39 PM

We discussed the acoustic panels and diffusers, so I have my marching orders for those. When he comes back for the calibration, he'll bring a stand for the left front unit and a perforated Stewart Filmscreen, so the SAMs will actually be out of sight behind the screen.

More to come as we move along, and please plan to register for the calibration event if you're interested. It looks to be a blast.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25105

JBL 4645

06-01-2009, 06:53 AM

Dome
It’s starting to take form now brilliant looking.:applaud:

So you only run laserdisc no DVD or haven’t yet installed it in the rack?

Nice laserdisc collection I see a few of the same titles that I have maybe we can run comparison tests.:D

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=39649&stc=1&d=1243816014

Titanium Dome

06-01-2009, 10:21 AM

Dome
It’s starting to take form now brilliant looking.:applaud:

So you only run laserdisc no DVD or haven’t yet installed it in the rack?

Nice laserdisc collection I see a few of the same titles that I have maybe we can run comparison tests.:D

Directly above the LD player and below the SDP-5 is an OPPO 981HD in a temporary install. We're waiting for the proper shelf.

Part of my dilemma is deciding to go with a Bluray player or not. I'm resisting.

I've decided NO VCR, but I'm contemplating an OTA HD tuner. Unfortunately, they all seem to be silver, in which case I'd have to say "No."

There might be a karaoke machine going in there. What can I say? I'm still a working class chump. :thmbsup:

MLKstudios

06-01-2009, 10:42 AM

Titanium Dome

06-01-2009, 10:56 AM

That's a lot of sound you got there. Was trying to figure out how you had all 16 channels hooked up? And what did you do with the "extra" amps they sent?

Oh and Oppo's new Blu-ray player was released last week. How can you not add one to this system.

Hey, welcome to the forums! Nice to see you over here. :wave:

The fronts are essentially actively biamped, so six channels feed the front, center, and right mains. Then there's four surrounds, so that adds up to ten channels. The subs are running off the S800s as bridged units, so that's all four channels of those two amps, totaling 14 channels.

The S400 is not part of the main system but will be employed to drive a second two-channel zone, so there you have all sixteen channels.

I could have left the S400 out, but there was plenty of room and it seemed extra cool to have a five-stack of amps, which makes this stack 25% bigger than the other guys who got the same system. :p

Sheesh! Who's acting like a kid now?

As for the OPPO, it's tempting, very tempting...

nlsteele

06-01-2009, 12:50 PM

What can I say? I'm still a working class chump. :thmbsup:

You, sir, are prone to irony. ;)

I like the 5-stack of amps very much. It's the Dagwood of amplification, and that's a good thing.

Titanium Dome

06-01-2009, 08:39 PM

I'm doing a rough lay out of acoustic panels in preparation for mounting in a couple of days. I've taken two days off at the end of the week just to work on this. It's really quite a marvel how much these rough placements improve an already impressive sound.

This will also serve to whet your appetite to visit the other thread for some equipment descriptions now that I've had a couple of days to loosen everything up and actually listen to music.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23833&page=12

rdgrimes

06-01-2009, 09:16 PM

Directly above the LD player and below the SDP-5 is an OPPO 981HD in a temporary install. We're waiting for the proper shelf.

Part of my dilemma is deciding to go with a Bluray player or not. I'm resisting.

Oppo BDP-83 will best the older 981 by quite a bit on DVD's and add BluRay too, not to mention SACD and DVD-A. That system is begging for a better DVD player and BD. BD if only for the lossless audio.

MLKstudios

06-02-2009, 12:40 AM

I must say I am already jealous, even before you have it finished. Excellent choices on your upgrades and you've convinced me to swap my Synth HT4's for Surface to Air Missiles. I was thinking of Array 1400's or even JBL Cinema speakers, but I like the way the SAM's look without grills (there is beauty in their simplicity). I could use them with a large plasma display, and admire them even when there is nothing on the screen.

Chris did an excellent job with the wiring. Get the Oppo while you still have his magic fingers to plug it all in. ;)

Congrats on having one of the best (if not THE best) home theater sound systems in the world.

JBL 4645

06-02-2009, 02:33 AM

Dome

Are the speakers going across this area is this the front?

If so build a quick extension platform. Rip off the edging at the bottom of the first one take the top off or keep it on and just extend a bit further so the JBL can rest on top of it. Although if a projection screen is going in the front LCR may need to be raised up a bit higher.

Or maybe total baffle wall with the speakers housed in.

I’m curious as to why thee port holes and yet the enclosure because it looks a bit small than the JBL 4645C that also looks like JBL 2242 18” if I’m not too mistaken.

What’s the frequency response cover 20Hz to 80 or 120Hz will it manage below 20Hz?

Rattles you’ll have to check for rattles and buzzing sounds with slow frequency sweep in the low range.

Floorboards
Lighting
Rack frame and experiment

I didn’t see any windows so you should be safe.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=39652&stc=1&d=1243816385

Valentin

06-02-2009, 07:54 AM

Ti dome

so you will not be puting your system in wall or just on wall

the sam units are desing to be in wall and if you put them on wall this will bring you some cancelation points that are not fixable via EQ in the 100 to 200th hz area

will this room be your permanent room or are you planing to change to a biger room

SteveW

06-02-2009, 08:38 AM

Just now catching up on your project here - kudos!

Can't help but mention something about your panel placement. You may already be aware of this, and at the risk of some slight oversimplification, the further you can mount them from the wall behind the better.

They will be most effective for you if they are mounted at a distance near the 1/4 or 3/4 wavelength point of a particular problem frequency where the particle velocity is highest. For example, the 1/4 wavelength distance of 220hz is 1' 3-7/16"

When mounted at the wall surface, a 1" thick panel will only absorb extremely high frequencys. Also, when mounted away from the wall, a resistive absorber does extra duty since reflected air molecules try to pass through from behind as well.

Simply put, a resistive panel works best where the particle velocity is the highest. This is not at the wall, where it is zero.

I really respect your effort - superb!

JBL 4645

06-02-2009, 09:25 AM

Titanium Dome

06-02-2009, 09:42 AM

Dome

Although if a projection screen is going in the front LCR may need to be raised up a bit higher.

Or maybe total baffle wall with the speakers housed in.

I’m curious as to why thee port holes and yet the enclosure because it looks a bit small than the JBL 4645C that also looks like JBL 2242 18” if I’m not too mistaken.

What’s the frequency response cover 20Hz to 80 or 120Hz will it manage below 20Hz?

Rattles you’ll have to check for rattles and buzzing sounds with slow frequency sweep in the low range.

Floorboards
Lighting
Rack frame and experiment

I didn’t see any windows so you should be safe.

Ti dome

so you will not be puting your system in wall or just on wall

the sam units are desing to be in wall

will this room be your permanent room or are you planing to change to a biger room

Just now catching up on your project here - kudos!

Can't help but mention something about your panel placement. You may already be aware of this, and at the risk of some slight oversimplification, the further you can mount them from the wall behind the better.

Simply put, a resistive panel works best where the particle velocity is the highest. This is not at the wall, where it is zero.

I really respect your effort - superb!

Guys, I appreciate your comments. Keep them coming. I'll consider them, though don't be disappointed if I go a different way. :)

My primary guide here is Chris, and he knows the system better than any of us. He also knows my limitations, and he's a real down-to-earth, practical guy to work with. It's always a pleasure to meet a guy who had a hand in the development of a great system, been at the top of a division, and has done many, many installations in diverse venues, and he's still easy to talk to and considerate of the customer's reality.

Some of these questions are already answered, but since they're scattered here and there in a couple of threads, here's a digest.

This is a temporary install due to the problems we encountered in the actual construction of the room. If you look at the picture of the three fronts, on the brown wall you'll see a white mark on the wall between the center and right side speaker. That marks the height of the block foundation retaining wall 3.5" behind the drywall. Nothing's going in that wall. The cabinet under the right speaker contains a foundation caisson, which is anchored to the Palos Verdes bedrock 18' below. It's not moving. Just off to the left is the earthquake shear wall behind the drywall, so there's no expansion in that direction. IOW, the room is as it is.

The fronts will be surrounded by 4" thick acoustical panels, so they'll in effect be marginally recessed. The fronts will also be hidden behind a Stewart Filmscreen Microperf on factory T-stands. Perfect, no, but it's what we can do.

The surrounds will be wall-mounted inside boxes. They'll have a diffuser directly to either side and a 2" acoustic panel directly underneath. The diffusers and panels will be 1.75" off the walls.

Or we may change all of this as we progress! :D

Keep those cards and letters coming.

rdgrimes

06-02-2009, 01:55 PM

Be sure to aim those subs sideways or they'll put your eye out. :blink:

MLKstudios

06-02-2009, 11:10 PM

Be sure to aim those subs sideways or they'll put your eye out. :blink:

I'm sure Chris knows exactly where they should go.

My own semi-calibrated Synth system bests most movie theaters in sound. A calibrated Synth system, by one of its designers, is bound to best some of the better theaters you could visit.

TiDome has put his eyes on the prize of HT, and is almost there.

nlsteele

06-03-2009, 01:10 AM

Be sure to aim those subs sideways or they'll put your eye out. :blink:

What I can't believe is that they're rated up to 200 Hz? I mean seriously, who could sit in that room if the extension was high enough? Wowza... :bouncy:

TD, you've got yourself some heavy hitters. I hope you saved every last bit of your hearing for this one.:D

JBL 4645

06-03-2009, 05:22 AM

Dome

Would you, also listen to music non-sync mode with the perforated screen, you know just like in the cinema at low level to simulate the conditions or atmosphere.;)

jblsound

06-03-2009, 08:18 AM

What I can't believe is that they're rated up to 200 Hz? I mean seriously, who could sit in that room if the extension was high enough? Wowza... :bouncy:

TD, you've got yourself some heavy hitters. I hope you saved every last bit of your hearing for this one.:D

Well, you don't want the sub's FR to just end at or near the XO point, it needs a smooth transistion.

nlsteele

06-03-2009, 11:42 AM

Well, you don't want the sub's FR to just end at or near the XO point, it needs a smooth transistion.

I'm with you on smooth transition, but even at a crossover of 130 Hz like the PS, you'd be "missing" a good bit of their high end potential. I'm honestly just really impressed with JBL's technology making a driver, with a cone that large, that can move that fast. It's great engineering. :applaud:

jblsound

06-03-2009, 11:54 AM

I'm with you on smooth transition, but even at a crossover of 130 Hz like the PS, you'd be "missing" a good bit of their high end potential. I'm honestly just really impressed with JBL's technology making a driver, with a cone that large, that can move that fast. It's great engineering. :applaud:
The old LE14A, as used in the L55, crossed to the tweeter at 2k. One member a few years back bought a pair of L55s and was surprised how good they sound. I've still got 3 of them.

Valentin

06-03-2009, 12:00 PM

ti dome

i now under stand it is a provitional room so it is no worth spending on putting a new wall in front of the old one to have the spekers fulshed correctly and have the rest of it act as a low frecueny absorber

nlsteele

06-03-2009, 12:33 PM

The old LE14A, as used in the L55, crossed to the tweeter at 2k. One member a few years back bought a pair of L55s and was surprised how good they sound. I've still got 3 of them.

2000 Hz! :jawdrop:

I have to admit, I feel kind of blessed to have found JBL so early in my audio-life. I feel like I've dodged a lot of bullets and found a lot of gold (thanks in no small part to LH and the JBL thread over at AVS; that means all of you who contribute!). I am, however, trying like hell to avoid the vintage collecting habit that will one day endanger my future childrens' inheritances.:D

Titanium Dome

06-07-2009, 08:28 AM

So I asked Chris about uniform height for the fronts and the next thing I know I'm building a platform all the way across the front to provide a single horizontal plane for the proscenium. This provides identical vertical elevation of each of the SAM units.

Titanium Dome

06-07-2009, 08:33 AM

The front sub now will be partly built into its own enclosure, seen here to the right. The divider is actually two sheets of plywood over a foam cell insulator. Also, I didn't get a pic of the vibration dampers built into the platform between it and the 2x4 subframe. The subframe is bolted into the studs on three sides and easily holds my weight.

Titanium Dome

06-07-2009, 08:42 AM

The surrounds are all mounted on subframes, too.

The top shows how I wish each one looked, with a clean install and no wire visible, but this is only possible on one wall. The rear and right side walls are exterior walls with 2x8 studs, with sheathing, metal screening, and stucco on the outside, so access is not possible without ripping out the drywall, and that's not something I will do in this case.

The bottom shows the reality before placing the wires in runs, which you'll see eventually. The diffusers will go on the subframes on both sides of the S4Ai surrounds.

JBL 4645

06-07-2009, 11:23 AM

Wicked Dome your just wicked now was that my idea of extending from the other and making it look continuous. Spot on!
:applaud:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=39913&stc=1&d=1244388433

Hmm, now if you wanted to make the ceiling look flush just knock up some in-between plasterboard bweten that beam.

NO! You’ll loos the extra height in the room. :D

I guess if the surrounds centre back doesn’t meet high-expectations you could always undo them and shift them apart by few more inches.

But something tells me they looks spot on the money. Wricked fixing Dome you’re just wicked.:applaud:

Oh, are the surrounds leaning forwards tilted downwards to the seating otherwise the sound is going to pass right over your head!

Make a piece of wood a large piece and angle the wood for the correct angle.

All my x10 JBL control 1 thou placed up high are all tilted downwards if I aim them upwards or cantered on the mounting, it would sound dreadful. So remember to angle those downwards, otherwise the highs will fly pass you.

Otherwise carry on its all coming together nicely.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=39916&stc=1&d=1244389105

nlsteele

06-07-2009, 12:05 PM

JBL 4645

06-07-2009, 12:11 PM

Really exciting to watch this all coming together, TD. That bench up front is slick, and I can't wait to see the sub in there. Does it fit completely under that? God I wish I could hear this rig. Maybe some time I'll be out on that side of the country.

Enjoy it for all of us. :applaud:

On there sides that is although in some cinemas the subs are placed in-between left and centre or centre and right. The platform only needs a few extra supports to support the weight.:D

No placed on there sides will look nice and you can slide the sub along the front to find the best spot with less null issues.;)

I have gut feeling it might sound like once CIC/UCI THX screen at High Wycombe, wickedly out of this world. Thou we have to wait till Dome’s man comes along to do the finalizing EQ on it.:applaud: