Why are we locked into one approach? Jim Lansing wasn't.

[Ducatista47]

From another thread:


my biggest complaint about so much of whats sold into the retail market today, once you get past the gimmicks and cheap plastic trimmings, is the lack of coherence between the bass and midrange. There's just no way a subwoofer and a 3" 'mid' radiator can cover the all important 100-800hz evenly and smoothly, no matter how much money you throw at it (and, the Bose's of the world throw that money at their marketing and advertising rather than engineering).


I dunno about that, my pal Kurt Chang made the OBs in the foreground with 3" Fostexes crossing over to the sub in the middle. Sounded pretty damned good (with regards to tone, not dynamics of course) with no apparent thinness in the upper bass-lower midrange.


Ah, Coherence, the magic word. He said the magic word! I admit that using crossovers and specialized drivers for each frequency band is an interesting experiment. Obviously one that has taken hold, enabled by the advent of high power (as were so many other audio developments that have proved to be a mixed blessing). Coherency does not come naturally to a multi way system and any success it has there is relative.

But once upon a time, a time I lived through and heard, Full Range drivers were as common as any other type. They were not particularly small, either. In my childhood home they ran from ten to twelve to fifteen inches.

They were naturally and actually (not sort of) coherent, automatically time aligned and perfectly in phase. As an approach it has much to recommend it. These virtues plus the absence of crossovers offered an experience stunning in its own right. Those not old enough to remember good sized Full Range drivers, very efficient by nature, being driven in turn by sweet tube amps of modest wattage, have no idea. Tiny Lowthers and Fostexs are not dynamic enough to even remind one of the systems of the past. Full Range drivers have a small xmax, but the cone size can make up for it.

Since I use both, I can safely say that each approach has something to recommend it and the multiway world is different but not superior. In fact, for listening to the music I like to hear, the Full Range world is markedly superior.

If you think wimpy when you think full range, remember that the classic systems competed directly with horn systems, not AR3's.

The once adventuresome audio scene has been dominated for many, many years by a single pole of the world of possibilities. Multi way speakers with crossovers that render the golden midrange, for better or worse, in hunks. I think what really matters about this is, for everything to be gained by the approach, something else is lost.

I find that for the gain in accuracy, which when comparing good systems to good systems is minor, the lack of signal, phase, location, and time coherency that results is not a minor affair.

Why does all this strike me as odd? Because despite all the back and forth on this site about doing things this way or that way, they are all variations on one of several possible themes. Seen that way, a tempest in a teapot comes to mind. It is like trying out different regional ways of speaking French instead of trying French, German, English and Japanese to find which best expresses what we are trying to communicate.

But, you might say, this is Lansing Heritage. Well, in the Heritage days Mr. Lansing was quite taken with extended range drivers. I know, when Jim Lansing was making extended range drivers the audio world lacked the top octave and the subwoofer range. But now we have tweeters to die for and real subwoofers, and why can't they be married to Full Range drivers as well as to two or three way 40 to 9000hz systems? Well, they can and that is what I listen to most of the time. Because it does a great job if done right, just like the multi way approach does. And it sounds so coherent and natural as compared to the competing approach. My three way of choice is Sub, Full Range and coincident tweeter. Heck, use a 2245H and it will be perfectly on topic.

In my experience at home, I would say multi way is superior for playing really loud (FR won't be making any inroads into SR) and for playing really loud music, like heavy metal, dance club stuff, very hard distorted rock, and large symphony orchestras at full honk. Full range is superior for Jazz, Blues, acoustic, vocal, ambient, electronic, Rock like The Rolling Stones, Jethro Tull, Jeff Beck, and Robin Trower. Concrete Blonde, multi way. The Pretenders (classic or contemporary), Full Range. Sorry the examples are ancient history like I am, but you get the picture.

Clark

[Ian Mackenzie]

From another thread:





Ah, Coherence, the magic word. He said the magic word! I admit that using crossovers and specialized drivers for each frequency band is an interesting experiment. Obviously one that has taken hold, enabled by the advent of high power (as were so many other audio developments that have proved to be a mixed blessing). Coherency does not come naturally to a multi way system and any success it has there is relative.

But once upon a time, a time I lived through and heard, Full Range drivers were as common as any other type. They were not particularly small, either. In my childhood home they ran from ten to twelve to fifteen inches.

They were naturally and actually (not sort of) coherent, automatically time aligned and perfectly in phase. As an approach it has much to recommend it. These virtues plus the absence of crossovers offered an experience stunning in its own right. Those not old enough to remember good sized Full Range drivers, very efficient by nature, being driven in turn by sweet tube amps of modest wattage, have no idea. Tiny Lowthers and Fostexs are not dynamic enough to even remind one of the systems of the past. Full Range drivers have a small xmax, but the cone size can make up for it.

Since I use both, I can safely say that each approach has something to recommend it and the multiway world is different but not superior. In fact, for listening to the music I like to hear, the Full Range world is markedly superior.

If you think wimpy when you think full range, remember that the classic systems competed directly with horn systems, not AR3's.

The once adventuresome audio scene has been dominated for many, many years by a single pole of the world of possibilities. Multi way speakers with crossovers that render the golden midrange, for better or worse, in hunks. I think what really matters about this is, for everything to be gained by the approach, something else is lost.

I find that for the gain in accuracy, which when comparing good systems to good systems is minor, the lack of signal, phase, location, and time coherency that results is not a minor affair.

Why does all this strike me as odd? Because despite all the back and forth on this site about doing things this way or that way, they are all variations on one of several possible themes. Seen that way, a tempest in a teapot comes to mind. It is like trying out different regional ways of speaking French instead of trying French, German, English and Japanese to find which best expresses what we are trying to communicate.

But, you might say, this is Lansing Heritage. Well, in the Heritage days Mr. Lansing was quite taken with extended range drivers. I know, when Jim Lansing was making extended range drivers the audio world lacked the top octave and the subwoofer range. But now we have tweeters to die for and real subwoofers, and why can't they be married to Full Range drivers as well as to two or three way 40 to 9000hz systems? Well, they can and that is what I listen to most of the time. Because it does a great job if done right, just like the multi way approach does. And it sounds so coherent and natural as compared to the competing approach. My three way of choice is Sub, Full Range and coincident tweeter. Heck, use a 2245H and it will be perfectly on topic.

In my experience at home, I would say multi way is superior for playing really loud and for playing really loud music, like heavy metal, dance club stuff, very hard distorted rock, and large symphony orchestras at full honk. Full range is superior for Jazz, Blues, acoustic, vocal, ambient, electronic, Rock like The Rolling Stones, Jethro Tull, Jeff Beck, Robin Trower. Concrete Blonde, multi way. The Pretenders (classic or contemporary), Full Range. Sorry the examples are ancient history like I am, but you get the picture.

Clark

Hi Clark,

I would say you are noy alone in your thoughts.

The thing is there have been good and bad examples of everything your raise. ie The original Altec VOT was a no compromise and it performed very well. The idea was then down scaled (for market appeal) and those versions perform(ed) less well and you can hear it (aka my visit to Steve Schell's home and the ear bending I got on this issue..but this is a classic part of audio history).

For example in the 1st quote this is an engineering fart of fact.

In such a system a 3 inch driver would crossover over at 150-200 hertz and there are great examples of such systems where space is a premium over maximum spls.

Tiny drivers come into there own when size is problem.

In Japan they have been using and making full range drivers since Jesus was a boy and their skills with paper remain unchallenged as in the Feastrex drivers. But there are still compromises in LF extension and you see well engineered setups with OB woofers supporting hi end FR drivers.


Originally Posted by pierce http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=250231#post250231)

my biggest complaint about so much of whats sold into the retail market today, once you get past the gimmicks and cheap plastic trimmings, is the lack of coherence between the bass and midrange. There's just no way a subwoofer and a 3" 'mid' radiator can cover the all important 100-800hz evenly and smoothly, no matter how much money you throw at it (and, the Bose's of the world throw that money at their marketing and advertising rather than engineering).

As to the polarized Audio world I think it comes down to looking at how many speaker manufacturers make their own drivers and then compare it to those who buy drivers off the shelf and then design a system around those drivers. There is also a comparitive shortage of people who really know what they are doing and the expertise to commercialize a sucessful FR driver.

Tannoy and Fostex make their own drivers, as do Hemp Acoustics and Visation (their hi end 8 inch FR drivers).

There is a trend for hi powered dual concentrix co axial drivers and some people are now marketing high powered HT speakers with such drivers.

Its also much more difficult and expensive to design and build FR drivers withacceptable compromises than a mid, tweeter and bass driver.

[php]In my experience at home, I would say multi way is superior for playing really loud and for playing really loud music, like heavy metal, dance club stuff, very hard distorted rock, and large symphony orchestras at full honk. Full range is superior for Jazz, Blues, acoustic, vocal, ambient, electronic, Rock like The Rolling Stones, Jethro Tull, Jeff Beck, Robin Trower. Concrete Blonde, multi way. The Pretenders (classic or contemporary), Full Range. Sorry the examples are ancient history like I am, but you get the picture.

An interesting observation.

You have to remember that JBL's origins were Theatre Sound and they were two ways on the basis of highly efficient systems for low wattage amps of the day. The use of a horn was the only way to raise the sensitivity to the desire level and this bought controlled directivity.

In some respects the most recent JBL SOA systems use the principles you mention of top and bottom octave augmentation.

But a lot of it comes down to accepted approaches and a long term philosophy. To make a radical departure might alienate that mature and loyal market (ie Japan) and JBL would not be JBL.

[Allanvh5150]

If you could convince the 6 billion people on the planet to stop buying crap, crap would cease to exist. :D

[SEAWOLF97]

Clark

If you read up on Lincoln Walsh its easy to see that he was one of the great minds in audio engineering.

His design is a single fullrange driver with coherency as a prime objective ..no crossovers to get in the way.and 360 radiation.

Walsh drivers have been licensed to Ohm Acoustics , Infinity and German Physiks among others ....their soundstage is truly amazing , almost 3D like image accuracy. Those people that listened to my big Ohms would stand there speechless, or walk around the room to see where the boundaries of the image were...many asked that if I ever see another pair for sale to let them know - quickly

Many audiopiles poo-poo the driver as it isnt well understood and feel that the speakers just CANT be making those sounds. (many ask if I can remove the tents and then they go peer closley and ask "where is the sound coming from " ?? )

Walsh is just as much a pioneer as Lansing and in many ways more imaginative , just less successful. ;)

(thats kinda funny as I read that Lansing was not really all that successful, having flirted with bankruptcy often and having to join forces to stay alive)

[BMWCCA]

I read that Lansing was not really all that successful, having flirted with bankruptcy often and having to join forces to stay aliveOne must distinguish the man from the company to make such assessments. And, I suppose, the company then from the company today. Today, just surviving seems to give a company some cred. Harman International has many fine old companies under their umbrella, none of which are owned by their entrepreneurial founders, in most cases because the company outlived the visionary (but not Sidney!) which is in and of itself a pretty good measure of the success of both. :applaud:

[robertbartsch]

Didn't Lansing hang himself in the fifties?


What about the Altec du-plex; didn't he design this?

[Titanium Dome]

If you could convince the 6 billion people on the planet to stop buying crap, crap would cease to exist. :D

Most of those six billion cannot even afford to buy crap, but that's fodder for an off topic debate. The reality is that there is a broad spectrum of taste and a broad spectrum of available product. We can be grateful that JBL is happy making $1 million in a month selling K2 S9900s (with its beautiful, near-full-range 476Mg) when it could settle for the many millions it makes each month selling auto, multimedia and low end consumer gear.

[pierce]

hah, I was going to mention Ohm Acoustics, and their big Walsh speakers. Those are truly astounding. they need like a half kilowatt to run high volumes, but they have coherent deep bass to uhf treble, all from a single source, inherently phase coherent...

For those unfamiliar with the Walsh driver, its an inverted cone, narrow end on top, that sits on top of a large tower so they are at about listening level. The slope of the cone is such that as an acoustic wave propagates down the solid material of the cone, the sound wave it produces in air radiates as a cylinder. They have a 'cap' over them that absorbs any sound going upwards, and some sound absorbing materials on the back to reduce the rear wall reflections.

http://www.ohmspeakers.com/CLSDbig.gif

I see they do add a more conventional supertweeter on top for extreme UHF.

because this acts as a virtual line source, it provides a very wide and natural sounding 'stage'. The main downside is A) expensive (the big Ohm Walsh 5 speakers are $5000+ a pair) and B) very power hungry if you want high volumes.

[SEAWOLF97]

Didn't Lansing hang himself in the fifties?


James Martini didnt have an ideal life...:(

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/history/lansing/early.htm


hah, I was going to mention Ohm Acoustics, and their big Walsh speakers. Those are truly astounding. they need like a half kilowatt to run high volumes, but they have coherent deep bass to uhf treble, all from a single source, inherently phase coherent....

The model 5 is not really a big Walsh ..I have F's (driver is 18 inches tall/12 diameter - another member here has "A"'s ...the 18 inch diameter) they are astounding, but not really capable of high volume..power hungry ? no not that bad, tho inefficient and impedance wacky ( rated 4 ohm, really 3..and sometimes 2 or maybe less) ....deep bass and I have added a 2 way crossover at input source (so as not to affect main driver) to run an addon titanium tweeter..

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=236721&postcount=1

[4313B]

James Martini didnt have an ideal life...:(Well... You have to admit that this human infested planet is a perfect example of a fucking madhouse run completely amok. I feel badly for people, James included. I wish it all could have worked out splendid for him. The daily suffering is truly staggering.

[MikeBrewster77]

Well... You have to admit that this human infested planet is a perfect example of a fucking madhouse run completely amok.
+1

Perhaps the most true (and hysterical) single line I've read here. I actually spit a bit of the scotch I was sipping on out of my mouth when I read that. :p

[BMWCCA]

Well... You have to admit that this human infested planet is a perfect example of a fucking madhouse run completely amok. I feel badly for people, James included. I wish it all could have worked out splendid for him. The daily suffering is truly staggering.While we have a much better understanding of depression and mental illness in general today, it is still requires a lot a courage to openly admit to having such an illness. Society doesn't accept it even as well as they do smokers who get lung cancer. We blame that on the tobacco companies and pity the "addicts". Yet we still stigmatize those suffering from mental illness, make them damn-near uninsurable under many private insurance policies, or severely limit the coverage that will convey. The whole thing is in the shadows, the victims are being taken advantage of, the meds are prohibitively expensive, the stigma can impact getting a job or even keeping your family together, and so many are forced to suffer in silence without getting the care they need that could help them.

So we really haven't progressed that far from the time when the only JBL was a D130, and James suffered enough that taking his own life seemed like a reasonble solution. Sad, isn't it?

[4313B]

Sad, isn't it?Yep!

[Ducatista47]

About subwoofers. I should reiterate that what I am championing is basically a three way for today, a Full Range augmented. I do not think needing a subwoofer enters into the discussion, as I have personal experience with only one speaker that does not benefit from a sub for playing most music (as opposed to home theater, where very low bass is the rule rather than the exception. That would be the 4345. I have not heard the newest top of the line JBL's. The point is that a sub helps with Full Range drivers, but any speaker not flat to 31hz is in the same boat. I believe the Everest II is in that category. I don't want to stick an EQ into my minimalist signal path to nudge a system into compliance if I don't have to. It just doesn't sound as good to me. When you hear the clarity and coherence of a system like mine it is hard to go back to electronic gimmickry. By comparison it starts to sound like a table radio. It is not a substitute for getting it right in the first place. I'm not trying to put anything down, just reporting what I experience.

If dynamics are not a priority, the eight inch Fostex speakers in a good box, like an Omega, would not need a tweeter but the bass augmentation would need to start at 100hz, I would say. Not my system of choice, but in a small room at moderate volume I could not argue with it. With the right music such a system can sound stunning, but what it plays really well is kind of limited by the lesser dynamics. The best imaging I have ever heard, hands down.

But what I am really talking about is a super sounding twelve inch Full Range that can use bass help from about 45hz and a soft dome tweeter from 9700hz. Unlike three to eight inch speakers, the big speaker has excellent dynamics for reasonable volumes. The entire low-mid bass to the upper mid range and beyond, the beating heart of the music, are completely coherent. Super tweeters and subwoofers offer much less of a challenge to integrate to the whole than any crossover in the 45-9700hz region and coherency is to my ears complete with this system. The whole point is that the damage in dividing up the 45 or 60 to 9000 or 10000 range is easy to hear and major, whereas we have all found that adding a sub or a super tweeter is no big deal.

I am not talking about Heritage products, I know, and I am not saying that this is better in every way than the systems we discuss here. What I am saying is that this is different but certainly no worse, and better in some ways. Better for what I like to listen to, for sure. In other words, worth a try for some members. I know I am not the only member who turns down the lights, sits in a chair in the best spot (why sit anywhere else?), and listens without distractions. (For this little group, off axis response and directivity are non issues. I never hear headphone users carping about these things either. :)) From the rebuttals I read here whenever I mention this stuff, I have to think that hardly anyone here has ever heard this done right. No surprise, since it hardly ever is done right. (Paragraph edited to reflect comments.)

The categories I mentioned that are best heard on this type of system versus the categories best for multi way systems should sound like a familiar division. The same as Class A single ended amps versus push-pull amps. No coincidence. The complexity and sheer noise quotient of the music, more than the volume, is the key. Take large symphonies. As soon as it quiets down and the solo starts, the choice flips back to Full Range and Class A single ended. It is like going from the city to the countryside. A car is great for rushing out there, but as soon as you have arrived a bicycle or your feet are a much better choice.

Ian, "since Jesus was a boy..." :rotfl: What a great turn of phrase.

I can add nothing to the comments about Jim Lansing's life and human misery in general, except to agree that he was not defined by his depression and was possessed of genius much more important than the ability to make money. Abraham Lincoln suffered form deep depressions but what he did in spite of them is what mattered, and still matters.

Sorry to be so long winded again. I've said my peace, and thanks for listening.

Clark

[Ian Mackenzie]

Steve Schell is an authority on the Lansing family.

Speaker Lab is another excellent example of a One Man show.
Some regard his speakers as the best ever made but they are beyond the reach of most.

Alison also had some great designs as did Dunlavy.

I heard some Druid's a while back ...they are exactly what Clark is talking about. They use a powered sub integrated in the large sytems and a horn super tweeter. The FR 12 used is a small Xmax super light weight cone.

The problem I have with them is the sweet spot is a about 1 square inch in the entire room (I am exagerating but that is how they sound). So you need a fairly dry (live) room to bring them to life

They tend honk unless you are direct on axis which JBL also addressed in their paper on "Improvements to monitor design."

One of the reasons people like FR drivers is the break-up modes tend to cover up a lot of prickly bumps and pot holes that you tend to find annoying in less well designed multiway systems while the 2nd harmonic distortion of SET tends to mellow out the sound. Akin to a 50's valve hifi set. I once heard some Coral Beta eights with an Audio Note SET amp. It was nice enough but did not have the balls for the lifelike dynamics of the real JBL's.

I personally find Lowthers un-listenable unless put behind a heavy wet blanket.

That is a lot worse then the 4345 in terms of directivity. The bi radial systems solved that issue and the horns JBL uses today dont sound like horns.

I am not aware of a dome tweeter without horn loading that is more than 96 db sensitivity so with truely hi sensitivity FR drivers it means Horn loaded device like the Fostex horn super tweeters for the highs (see Madisound)

[Ducatista47]

No argument from me, Ian. But as I added above directivity and off axis response are non issues with listeners like me.

I would love to hear a pair of Druids. They are, to be precise, 10.3 inch drivers, not twelves.

I have never been impressed with Lowthers either, but then again I have not heard every box ever built for the pricey oddballs.

Fostex is another matter. The older eight inch Fostex equipped Omegas sound fabulous. A friend of mine talks to the owner/designer Louis Chochos sometimes. He said that Fostex speakers are at least every bit as good as the much pricier Lowthers, but you have to know how to design a box for them.

You earlier said this:


As to the polarized Audio world I think it comes down to looking at how many speaker manufacturers make their own drivers and then compare it to those who buy drivers off the shelf and then design a system around those drivers. There is also a comparative shortage of people who really know what they are doing and the expertise to commercialize a successful FR driver.Here is some of what Louis says.

“My whole philosophy is the entire product is born in one place. It’s not a cookie cutter approach, where you take mass-market parts and assemble them together like a puzzle. Everything including my proprietary cabinet alignment algorithm, proprietary driver designs, four-layer cabinet construction, and product assembly are totally done by me.”

http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/about/the-company

The little soft dome Audax TM025F15 tweeters in our Hammer Dynamics Super 12's are 95dB from 10khz on up to as far as my hearing works, down about 2dB from the big FR cone, but to my ears it integrates well if you use the wire gauges recommended by the designer. On axis, of course. :D

Clark

[midlife]

Ducatista, Vintage Ducks or modern? I had two, a 900 Pantah, and a 2000 996SB. The Pantah was certainly interesting, the 996 pure exhileration. ;)

[Ducatista47]

2000 Monster 900S, fuel injected, currently laid up after a crash. I like the Monster the best, no bodywork and still way too much capability for the legal roads. I never did track days and I am too old to wring out anywhere near what this bike can do. Paul Smart is older and still has it, but he is - Paul Smart!

The Monster sounds nice enough from the saddle for me. This forum does not understand Ducatimusic, darn it. Desmodromic dry clutch music is the next best thing to John Coltrane.

JBL's bass is a bit less thrilling after riding a Ducati. The idle makes Harleys sound like dump trucks, the mids are magical. But when you wind through 6000rpm and go on up the howl is the most intoxicating sound in the world.

The barking deceleration is also unique and maybe even better.

Clark

[midlife]

The stachato (excuse my spelling) exhaust note offered from a duck exhaust, along with the ringing clutch is soul stirring, the rumors are true. Want to get a 1198sb but so many other things are in the mix it might be wishful thinking...and yes a Duck at full honk is uniquely intoxicating and then some.

[pierce]

I'll stick with the soft purr of my beemers stock exhaust, and the lack of clutch and chain rattles... that way I can enjoy the wind and view :D

[mon, we're drifting far far afield here...]

[midlife]

I'll stick with the soft purr of my beemers stock exhaust, and the lack of clutch and chain rattles... that way I can enjoy the wind and view :D

[mon, we're drifting far far afield here...]The Bimmers subtle nature and non intrusive experience definetly has its place (and I am a boxer fan) but don't discount a cut and thrust motorcycle, they can be equally rewarding. Its all good...;)...properly maintained chains run almost silently.

[Tom Brennan]

The Monster sounds nice enough from the saddle for me. This forum does not understand Ducatimusic, darn it. Desmodromic dry clutch music is the next best thing to John Coltrane.


35 years a go I had a pal who rode a 750 Desmo. Another pal had a Laverda 750 and I had an 850 Guzzi.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/Irishtom29/family124.jpg

[pierce]

The Bimmers subtle nature and non intrusive experience definetly has its place (and I am a boxer fan) but don't discount a cut and thrust motorcycle, they can be equally rewarding. Its all good...;)...properly maintained chains run almost silently.

I'd probably appreciate a Duc more if I was still 165 lbs, but at 230 lbs and 6' tall with a relatively long torso, every duc I've sat on has felt like a midget bike. :p Anyways, much of my riding is of the 'ride all day somewhere on back roads, and go camping' variety.

http://www.hogranch.com/digi-2006/2006-01-27/slides/IMG_5071.JPG
jan 2007 en route to Death Valley Daze

[Ducatista47]

Single Driver, made in Bologna, Italy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6PWPscqoiY

A 97 horsepower amplifier beats a thousand watt Crown every time.

The Song of a Can of Marbles

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUMypvc9iUA

[Ducatista47]

I will cap this appreciation of Full Range by noting that last night, after a long absence from them, I hauled out my best single driver set and...

It all started Saturday afternoon when I made it back to the local audio shop after several weeks absence (there is a lot going on around here lately). They again had a Rega P9 turntable on display with a top line Dynavector moving coil cartridge, being played through a Rogue phono preamp with tubes selected by the best NOS tube guy in the USA, and broken in. After being amped by further expensive Rogue separates, the music was played through a pair of Canton 890's.

The P9 I would stack up against any turntable at any price. Dynavector is one of those Japanese companies that won't settle for anything but the best they can possibly do. Rogue is expensive and still a bargain because it delivers the goods. This system would not be everybody's cup of tea, but it is stunning. It proved again how utterly superior vinyl can be. The sound was magic, and I was silently lamenting how my speakers and TT could not keep up with such a presentation. This stuff cost closer to what my house cost than the price of my car.

So last night I hooked up my Stax electrostatic headphones to my miracle little Grommes amp and listened to some well recorded CD's. Not vinyl, just good CD's. I had not done this in over a year. The rig sounded better than the mega buck store setup, and by a wide margin. It was even more involving and I was not sure that was possible without going to vinyl.

I have to tell you, when I use the Stax with what may be the world's best headphone amp, I find myself wondering how anything with speakers could ever be considered a main system. I have not heard them all, but I have never heard a speaker that could belong to the same club as the Stax. Nor could another headphone line. I think the best Sennheisers and Grados are earthshakingly good, I have heard them through the same amp, but they are nowhere close, not in same county as the Stax products.

So single driver does rule after all. Not as a different alternative, but as a superior way to get inside the music at any level that you can envision. The best speaker is a headphone, and it is most certainly a Full Range, Single Driver speaker. For a guy like me that sits in the sweet spot and listens to my music without distractions, this is truly it. Not social like speakers, but another world. And a much better sounding one.

I hope this does not make me lazy about better room treatments. :(

Clark

[Mr. Widget]

So last night I hooked up my Stax electrostatic headphones...

I have to tell you, when I use the Stax with what may be the world's best headphone amp, I find myself wondering how anything with speakers could ever be considered a main system. That isn't surprising considering your recent lover affair with coherency and detail resolution.

I think that both of those are excellent goals that can be quite satisfying, but then again, the live dynamic sound of music in the house coming from a pair of a big ass confused horn systems just can't be fully discounted either... for some it is important enough that even an A7 can sound like music. :D


Widget

[Ducatista47]

I have you to thank for this, Widget. Thank you!

You got me to thinking about how I could combine the accuracy of the best specialized transducers with complete coherency. I had been so involved with speakers - building, tweaking, placing, augmenting - for a couple of years I forgot that the answer was a few feet away in the same room.

Five minutes later I had that answer. It would have been a few seconds later, but these need speaker level power. To be fair, it did take me perhaps ten to twenty minutes for my brain to completely switch over to the new soundstage. I don't think the Stax give up anything in dynamics, by the way. And talk about explosive transients.

But when I started listening again tonight, the gratification was instant. My brain remembered. This sound is so damn real, so right. The bass can't thump my chest, but it is right there. Headphones with weak bass suck and have ruined a lot of listeners for the experience.

I do know what you mean about the sheer presence of a big horn speaker. I have 4345's, after all. Not all horn, but dat 2245H don't need no horn! The A7 sounds a damn sight better than the Model 19, I think. My sister has VOTT.

Clark

[Robh3606]

Hello Clark

I have an old pair of Koss ESP-9's I should dust off. They were Koss TOTL Electrostatic headphones at the time a hundred years ago:D They were awesome to listen too. I used to use them as my benchmark to set-up my system. I figured the closer it sounded to them the better the set-up was.

After reading your experience with the Stax phones I may just give them a try again. My new preamp has dual outputs so all I need is a spare amp, that I actually have, to get them going again. Let you know how it goes.

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

I don't think the Stax give up anything in dynamics, by the way. And talk about explosive transients.Yeah, but it is a high resolution photograph of a fine painting... we hear with our bodies too... the hair on our skin as well as that kick in the gut.

I find headphones quite enjoyable... and agree that the Stax are in a league of their own... ESP 9s are pretty cool too, but for me they can never replace the sound of music filling a room.

You like A7s more than 19s? I wouldn't have guessed. Baskin Robbins may have 31 flavors, but we have far more than that in the realm of audio. :D

BTW: I prefer gelato. ;)


Widget

[Robh3606]

but for me they can never replace the sound of music filling a room.


I agree! It sure was nice though to come home at midnight and fire up the headphones if you were not ready to hit the sack.

Rob:)

[Ducatista47]

I have an old pair of Koss ESP-9's I should dust off. They were Koss TOTL Electrostatic headphones at the time a hundred years ago:D They were awesome to listen too. I used to use them as my benchmark to set-up my system. I figured the closer it sounded to them the better the set-up was.

That is how I have used the Stax over the years. The ESP-9's are fine headphones and will challenge any speaker. Isn't it something how electrostatic phones seem to show every flaw and uncover every diamond? They test recordings as thoroughly as they reveal systems. They are like truth machines.


Yeah, but it is a high resolution photograph of a fine painting... we hear with our bodies too... the hair on our skin as well as that kick in the gut.

I find headphones quite enjoyable... and agree that the Stax are in a league of their own... ESP 9s are pretty cool too, but for me they can never replace the sound of music filling a room.

You like A7s more than 19s? I wouldn't have guessed. Baskin Robbins may have 31 flavors, but we have far more than that in the realm of audio. :D

BTW: I prefer gelato. ;)
Widget

I am certainly on the wrong website to even hint at anything that does not bass slam. JBL is the King of ABS (Accurate Bass Slam). Still, I don't confuse Stax phones for polite East Coast or British speakers. They are so fast that every frequency takes on a slam of its own. Stax is pleased to call them Earspeakers, and they are.

As for the Altecs, I fess up that what I really mean is that I hate the Model 19 much more than I hate the VOTT. Without a perfectly matched amp (the Dynaco Stereo 35 works well), to me the nineteens sound like frat party speakers. The only way to ignore the instant listener fatigue is to be completely wasted on beer or jello shots. Or both. The nineteens on any transistor amp are as much fun as having steel needles thrust into my eyes.

I would prefer messing around with Renee Zellweger to any frozen treat. :p Since I can't do that I recall fond nights long ago with a pint of Cherry Garcia.


I agree! It sure was nice though to come home at midnight and fire up the headphones if you were not ready to hit the sack.

Rob:)

You said it, Rob.

Clark

[pierce]

my dear old Dad went through an extended phase of buying lots of $$$$ stereo gear far far more expensive than anything I would ever buy, including a set of Stax... One day, I dragged my beat up old Sony MDR7506 studio phones that I got for ~$100 about 15 or 20 years ago... Now, those Stax with their nice little amplifier were very very nice but they sure weren't 20X nicer than the Sonys :bouncy:

The Sony studio phones are also very revealing of any recording flaws. they are, perhaps, a bit too bass heavy, and the upper treble range is very bright, but I've never heard anything for two or three times the price that are as clean, powerful, with the same kind of isolation from outside distractions. all day comfortable too. people look at my funny when I wear them with my mp3 player.:D

[Ducatista47]

I don't compare the current Stax Omega II (SR-007-MK2) to other headphones. As a more accurate comparison, I consider them a bargain compared to $65000 speakers. Which I suspect they don't give anything away to.

Mine are old SR-5's, so I am sure the newer models with nearly double the voltage - for even better bass - are a step above what I hear. But I am satisfied. Funny, but the snobs used to sniff at my phones. They had to be inferior to the Pro (higher voltage) models. They used the lower voltages and an adapter box with transformers, for heaven's sake. Then they looked again and found that the driver was very, very good and the adapter box was doing a great job. So they put them down because they did not approve of the ear pads. When I last checked they were coming around on those too.

Headphones have always been a bargain. There is an often told story here of an old local audiophile who heard some nice phones once. Since they blew him away and cost less than what he would spend on cables for his pricey speakers, he would thereafter say, "Keep those damn headphones away from me! They'll ruin everything!"

Clark

[4313B]

"Keep those damn headphones away from me! They'll ruin everything!"Yeah they will! :rotfl:

[SEAWOLF97]

Headphones have always been a bargain. There is an often told story here of an old local audiophile who heard some nice phones once. Since they blew him away and cost less than what he would spend on cables for his pricey speakers, he would thereafter say, "Keep those damn headphones away from me! They'll ruin everything!"

Clark

Have never heard any cans as hirsute as your STAX , but certainly agree on the bulk of what you are saying Clark. Have been a headphone guy since my Navy times (from 19 to 23 y.o.) as a necessity...on board ship or in barracks it was the only real choice....
even with modern IEM's I can hear more detail than with any speakers.

Recently hauled out my old Pioneer SE-50's (big white cans with gain and tone control on each side) ...they sounded great -esp for a late 60's design-

About 2 years ago the boss asked "How many headphones do you have ?" ..(in that nagging voice hinting GET RID OF SOME) ...so I eBayed my Koss's , Sennheisers , Naks , AKG's ..( 11 pair in all) .none of which I miss much , but did make the mistake of selling my Fostex's ..they were wonderfull and I wud rather have them still than the money they brought.

Still use Senn HD-580's and AKG's and my new/old Pioneers. ;)

[midlife]

"Keep those damn headphones away from me! They'll ruin everything!"

Clark Interesting, very interesting ;)

[Mr. Widget]

headphones... loudspeakers
motorcycles... cars
self gratification... love making


While all of the items on the left can be shared experiences, those on the right are better for sharing. :D


Widget

[Hoerninger]

Where has this threat ended?
J.B.Lansing can't choose anymore - what do you want to do today?
xxxxxx .... xxxxxx
___________
Peter ;)

[4313B]

Where has this threat ended?I think with everyone realizing that JBL doesn't have a viable set of headphones to offer?

[pierce]

I think with everyone realizing that JBL doesn't have a viable set of headphones to offer?

they don't?!?

http://hogranch.com/files/Bitmaps/d131phones.jpg



;)

[Tom Brennan]

I used to sit between my Maggie MG-IIs and use them like headphones, they were so easy to move around you see.

[Robh3606]

Hello Tom

You mean like this?? Kinda like bodyphones

Rob:)